Shifting and Concerning Moods Regarding the Writing

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Originally Posted by Alec97

The problem today is most Westerners haven't received a proper education and couldn't tell you their nose from the arse. What you have instead is westerners being asked why the curtains are red instead of being asked to research the philosophical origins of the narrative because nothing is original.

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Unbridled arrogance and Intro to Philosophy references doesn't automatically make you sound intelligent or educated either, just FYI.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

Unbridled arrogance and Intro to Philosophy references doesn't automatically make you sound intelligent or educated either, just FYI.

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Eh let them spout their nonsense day in and day out. It is good entertainment. Tis like the tabloids. Nobody in their right mind takes it seriously. I drop by these forums daily for a good giggle. People here think their wordy thought vomit actually matters.

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Originally Posted by Nayukhuut

Agreed as well. I understand that it was meant to be innocent child looking up to her elder kinda thing, but it still made me feel uncomfortable with the attention. I meant to agree in my original reply that it wasn't only the familiarity that felt strange, but also her age. Thankfully we moved off that and have fully boarded the G'raha train. Well, thankfully of a sort I guess. G'raha's constant fanboying makes me feel amazingly uncomfortable too, he's just not a literal child. Although it does look like he will be a large part of the next expansion... so woo. :(

Do not think I have seen anything that made me less excited for an expansion than G'raha biting into that taco.

I am really hoping that the full trailer shows us some actual story beats to look forward to, because the only part of that trailer that looked even slightly interesting was the shot of us exploring that ruin. The happy go lucky beach vacation filler expac vibe didn't win me over even slightly.

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Alisae has all the look and charm of a rodent. Both her and her equally unbearable brother should have aged up expansions ago but unfortunately there seems to be some misguided notion that any significant chunk of the playerbase considers her their “waifu” when in reality her and her brother come across as little than annoying brats especially to those of us who have long since tired of the Scions and their antics.

How unfortunate then that despite this being the most obvious point for us to switch over to a new cast that they have instead mistakenly decided to subject people to 10 more years of this cast. Why create new characters when you can force these same ones to go through the same arc over and over again? It’s not as if their fans have ever caught on to this and even sometimes appear surprised when this writing is called out for what it is.

The taco nonsense and worship coming from G’raha Tia is just icing on the cake, no one thinks of Final Fantasy and thinks of that much less is that likely to coax any new players into buying an expansion that only asks the question “What is the point?” When other games are offering stories and adventures of actual substance and consequence. I did not come to FFXIV for this kind of juvenile style writing, complete with preachy and ill-designed characters when we have been through expansions in this game where this game was anything but that – it was strong, there were stakes, there was real and lasting growth and actual sacrifices that weren’t undone by plot gizmos.

This is what happens when negative feedback is stifled and a positive feedback loop that cannot course correct itself is allowed to spiral out of control. A story that has gone so far off the rails while sucking all the magic out of the setting so that the only thing left is not even a “low stakes” adventure, but a pointless one that isn’t worth the 40 bucks to go on.

Again, FFXIV has done and must do better than this.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

This is what happens when negative feedback is stifled and a positive feedback loop that cannot course correct itself is allowed to spiral out of control. A story that has gone so far off the rails while sucking all the magic out of the setting so that the only thing left is not even a “low stakes” adventure, but a pointless one that isn’t worth the 40 bucks to go on.

Again, FFXIV has done and must do better than this.

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Have fun in your next game since FFXIV aint worth paying for

https://gifdb.com/images/high/itati-...xgdeuel7lj.gif

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

This is what happens when negative feedback is stifled and a positive feedback loop that cannot course correct itself is allowed to spiral out of control. A story that has gone so far off the rails while sucking all the magic out of the setting so that the only thing left is not even a “low stakes” adventure, but a pointless one that isn’t worth the 40 bucks to go on.

Again, FFXIV has done and must do better than this.

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stifled? hardly, you post a lot, and usually negative. there are a LOT of negative threads on the forums.. so where is this stifling you speak of?

you said you were leaving and not coming back until they changed. they didnt change and yet here you are, back again/still.

you'll pay whatever to keep playing, complaining about graha eating, their advertising, their target group, their portrayal of the character you dislike this week... you know it, but more importantly, they know it too.

this is like complaining about the food at MacDonalds, but continuing to return because you expect them to serve italian...and "hoping" they'll change.

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

stifled? hardly, you post a lot, and usually negative. there are a LOT of negative threads on the forums.. so where is this stifling you speak of?

you said you were leaving and not coming back until they changed. they didnt change and yet here you are, back again/still.

you'll pay whatever to keep playing, complaining about graha eating, their advertising, their target group, their portrayal of the character you dislike this week... you know it, but more importantly, they know it too.

this is like complaining about the food at MacDonalds, but continuing to return because you expect them to serve italian...and "hoping" they'll change.

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"This game is absolutely terrible, it sucks and honestly it aint worth paying for !"

also him : *takes credit card to pay for a subscription for the exact same game*

make it make sense

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

When I call Y’shtola the worst female character in the entire Final Fantasy franchise I don’t feel like that is an exaggeration at all. She represents a failure to establish not only a basis from which she can reasonably grow as a character, but the subsequent failure to attempt any growth or semblance of at an arc at all. She quite literally is just a walking lore explanation device that was more rude than sassy a few times and suddenly some elements of the playerbase managed to invent a personality around that moment that is hardly reflected in the game at all – due to her primary function being the aforementioned walking lore device.

I think I can count on one hand the number of well-fleshed out main female cast members that CBU3 has produced: Ysayle and Ryne. All others have suffered from either impossible personalities or lack of growth, and unfortunately characters like Jill in FFXVI are affected by this as well. They are characters that do not make me sympathize or feel anything for them or their struggles. And a creature like Y’shtola has no real struggles, not when she can die and come back every expansion like it’s nothing.

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Just responding to this that to say I agree with you on the Y'shtola point alone, but I disagree that there aren't more well-written female characters than Ysayle and Ryne.
FFXIV has a bad habit of not giving female characters depth when compared to their male peers, but there are still enjoyable female chars like Misija, Fordola, Yotsuyu, Athena, and Krile.

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Originally Posted by Alec97

Theory of forms

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First off, thank you for your first post in this thread where you absolutely curb stomped Endwalker's narrative. <3 Secondly, thank you for continuing to post. You've alluded to some stuff that I've always found interesting (though I do wish you'd spell Emet right).

Now then, for the meat of my response:

Plato's Theory of Forms has issues. The issues it has mostly relate to mental perception and agreement on what the concepts behind the forms are. Like Plato believed abstracts like beauty or power are realer than any individual thing that presents them within itself. To assume this is true means one has to completely agree on what beauty or power is defined as. And it's only we the meat that make the definitions.

His Theory of Forms was an attempt to answer the Problem of Universals. Traits that certain things share. Like all females share the ability to give birth. All humans have nipples. All stars emit light. But what these all really share under his theory is the predicated ideas of what each is. The social construction, in other words.

The Theory of Forms is predicated upon the agreement of what a thing already is in order for you to even think about its abstract form. And these change at the whims of society.

For instance, computers. Think about a computer. What would you think that its form is, in Plato's theory?

Well, whatever you thought, it doesn't matter. Originally computers were people who performed arithmetic for other people as a profession or service. As time went on, eventually all computers were women due to unjust labor laws. Up into 70-80 years ago, human computers were still referred to as such, even though mechanical computers had been in the making since 1822. And the first commercial computer, the Z4, sold in a loan deal was only completed in 1945 after the end of WWII.

You might think, oh, our material form imperfections mean that we've never truly gotten close to what a computer's actual form is, but that would be to ignore that we humans in all our fleshy glory decided what a computer's actual form is. And we changed it over time to suit our needs.

Basically, there's no way to actually separate the world of forms from the world of flesh, because the world of forms cannot exist without the world of flesh. Imagine all physical existence erased. Literally no beings to conceive of forms. There would be no forms. They couldn't be expressed, and even if they could, there's nothing to perceive them.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, after all.

Now how that relates to FFXIV and their gods... Well, in much the same way I just described the computer, so it is with FFXIV's gods. Because not everyone in the setting of FFXIV will agree that each Primal or Eikon is a god, then none of them can be as they have nothing absolute to predicate their form. Of course, their own individual societies do actually believe them to be gods, and so they are. So you are correct to say that they are gods, but you gotta add the qualifier, "The Ascian's God" or "The Amal'jaa's God" because they aren't universal.

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Originally Posted by Alec97

The problem today is most Westerners haven't received a proper education and couldn't tell you their nose from the arse. What you have instead is westerners being asked why the curtains are red instead of being asked to research the philosophical origins of the narrative because nothing is original.

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It has nothing to do with a lack of understanding on my part, I can assure you. I said you're overthinking things because the devs probably didn't think that deeply about individual components when they were writing the story. They took bits and pieces from different religions and philosophies, and they altered those sources to fit their own narrative. The story is what it is, and attempting to apply outside logic to a story that's already provided its own internal logic does not work. What you or I think or know is irrelevant so far as the story is concerned. It's fine to contemplate what the origin of X thing in the story might be, but managing to single out that origin does not mean the same logic one might apply to, for example, a given religion, is going to be applicable to a fictional world with its own unique set of rules.

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Originally Posted by Alec97

The methodical approach to his creation isn't science, it would considered occult by our world as individuals have control over the fundamental forces of reality. This is actually the key philosophical distinction between occultism and science. Science is about understanding the natural world and how things work. Occultism is about having the innate ability to control and change the natural world.

He is explicitly linked to the need for salvation by Elidibus his heart or core constantly. It becomes his primary function to the point he's forgotten everything but his duty which is to perform his function. Anything with aether is made up of the building blocks of the soul. We don't actually know what constitutes a soul yet as seems to be something very specific but the fact that you can make one does say a lot. There is also only one line from Emit stating they were tempered but there is actually very little evidence to prove he was actually tempered as he shows almost no evidence of it and one would have to question his need for it because he was already driven by his duty to his friends and family, not a parasitic insemination of another beings aether. Tempering also seems to be one of the major differences between how the ancients constructed things versus the beast tribes as almost no ancient concept tempers people. Their ability to create seems to be complete and stable without the need for the concept to acquire more aether to sustain and grow.

When it comes to the primals you are correct they are glorified entities but that is actually what all gods are in the first place. I could make a chicken my god by worshipping it. This is why I said what grants Godhood is people worshipping an ideal that they find to innately have transcendent properties such as war, death, light, dark etc as it functionally important to their understanding of the world and their place in it. The 12 in FF14 setting are just glorified beings but they are still gods and perform the societal function of gods to the point they are moulded by this function.

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(Mostly) in order:
The game refers to their methods as science, not occultism. Real world terminology need not always apply in a fictional setting. For example; a writer could decide that rubber chickens are called swords in their world, and this would not be an inaccuracy for their purposes. Writers often choose to alter or completely change words and their meanings to fit their stories.

Elidibus linking Zodiark to salvation after the fact is in no way indicative of his people's thoughts on the primal at the time of its creation. The creation of Zodiark was not initially any kind of religious or philosophical experience - it was the creation of a tool. Moreover, Elidibus himself was not subject to that salvation mindset initially. The fixation on salvation is implied to have come at some point after Elidibus separated himself from Zodiark to resume his role as mediator. Elidibus was rather unique in that he became a primal fueled entirely by hope as a result of separating himself, and the hope didn't even need to be fixated on him. So long as there was hope in the world, so too would there be Elidibus. I may also note that Elidibus ceased being Zodiark's heart the instant he separated himself. What he does or does not think or believe ceased having any bearing whatsoever on Zodiark once the two split.

In the case of Zodiark; he had no need for prayers, hope, or anything else. He was a wholly self-sufficient organism in that he required only the aether of the souls used to create him.

On the subject of primals:
Note I said glorified arcane entities, this being specifically to denote they are nothing more than soulless automatons, possessing no real will of their own outside of the parameters defined for them at the time of their summoning. In this context I am not using the term glorified in reference to them being raised up by the belief of their faithful. It's a more tongue-in-cheek term applied to something lesser being framed as something greater. For example, you might say a waffle is just a glorified pancake.

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Originally Posted by Alec97

Anything with aether is made up of the building blocks of the soul. We don't actually know what constitutes a soul yet as seems to be something very specific but the fact that you can make one does say a lot.

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That's the thing. You can't make a soul. That is a function of the planet. You could take preexisting souls and do something with them - or bits and pieces of souls, for that matter - but never actually create a soul.

Incidentally, there are two different types of aether noted in Final Fantasy XIV's lore. You have the body's physical aether (which is for the most part what fuels spellcasting, various skills, and the nigh-superhuman physical capabilities possessed by many Garleans). The other is spiritual aether, which is what comprises the soul. Depleting your spiritual aether means the complete destruction of said soul, and there's really nothing anyone can do about it. You're just gone.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

Unbridled arrogance and Intro to Philosophy references doesn't automatically make you sound intelligent or educated either, just FYI.

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So basically the writers for EW, lmao. I remember I said something like this before. Parts of FFXIV's story sound awfully a lot like someone pretending to be knowledgeable about philosophy when in fact they barely understand any of it.

Have to admit, I am curious what they're going to do now after having mostly stripping away the world's greatest mysteries - the afterlife, the Twelve, the world's history and pre-history, the ancients, Hydaelyn and Zodiark, and how all these things tie into the modern world as we know it. I don't mean in terms of new NPCs and challenges. I mean like... the world itself, one of the greatest mysteries any game can present you with, has been almost completely demystified.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Have to admit, I am curious what they're going to do now after having mostly stripping away the world's greatest mysteries - the afterlife, the Twelve, the world's history and pre-history, the ancients, Hydaelyn and Zodiark, and how all these things tie into the modern world as we know it. I don't mean in terms of new NPCs and challenges. I mean like... the world itself, one of the greatest mysteries any game can present you with, has been almost completely demystified.

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I might be wrong, but I think Meracydia/ the New World is one of, if not the last part of Hydaelyn left to be explored? If so, then perhaps with Dawntrail they're doing a clear sweep of Hydaelyn itself and then, having made shard and and space travel a relatively trivial affair, we'd be going to other reflections/ stars that would presumably have their own cultures and whatnot to fill in the sense of mystery that's been taken away.

...I'm not sure how effective it would be given that anything we'd hear on the other shards would just be their own interpretation of our history with Hydaelyn and a ShB rip, but maybe that's what they're going for. Come up with new zones and locations and stories less history-focused, but throw in a wink-wink-nudge-nudge moment about the Ancients to tickle the fans now and then.

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Originally Posted by Stormpeaks

"This game is absolutely terrible, it sucks and honestly it aint worth paying for !"

also him : *takes credit card to pay for a subscription for the exact same game*

make it make sense

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And i'm sure he will claim he will quit after 6.55 comes out and he complains about hildibrand. Then come back when dawntrail comes out and paying a sub and $40 for the expansion to complain about graha evolving from eating burgers to eating tacos and various other things.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

I might be wrong, but I think Meracydia/ the New World is one of, if not the last part of Hydaelyn left to be explored? If so, then perhaps with Dawntrail they're doing a clear sweep of Hydaelyn itself and then, having made shard and and space travel a relatively trivial affair, we'd be going to other reflections/ stars that would presumably have their own cultures and whatnot to fill in the sense of mystery that's been taken away.

...I'm not sure how effective it would be given that anything we'd hear on the other shards would just be their own interpretation of our history with Hydaelyn and a ShB rip, but maybe that's what they're going for. Come up with new zones and locations and stories less history-focused, but throw in a wink-wink-nudge-nudge moment about the Ancients to tickle the fans now and then.

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There's technically a lot of places that have been mentioned as established locations that could be visited though whether the game actually takes us there is another matter entirely. Other than Meracydia and the New World there's still the inner portion of Hingashi and also the likes of Nagxia, Landis, Lea Monde and Valnain as well. Though they could easily be ignored or just turned into dungeons much in the same way as Xelphatol.

If we do go to another of the Reflections, I hope there's more of an effort to make them more distinct and not just 'Eorzea, but slightly different'. Everything leading up to Ultima Thule served to kill off practically the entire universe outside of the Source and the Reflections which is disappointing.

It's also dubious, since not only does it rid us of the potential for a space opera/sci-fi heavy expansion involving planetary exploration it would have opened a more authentic path to justifying the increasing amount of futuristic and modern looking gear that the development team is suddenly obsessed with.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

Unbridled arrogance and Intro to Philosophy references don't automatically make you sound intelligent or educated, either, just FYI.

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Opinions are free, and arrogance is earned. Most schools are underfunded pieces of garbage that fail to teach children how to read, write and act at grade level compared to their private counterparts.

I also don't feel the need to sound intelligent. That naturally happens, but you are showing your issues by targeting them.

You also never stated that I was wrong.

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Originally Posted by Reap00

Eh, let them spout their nonsense day in and day out. It is good entertainment. It's like the tabloids. Nobody in their right mind takes it seriously. I drop by these forums daily for a good giggle. People here think their wordy thought vomit matters.

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I doubt you've read a tabloid and it’s not a good thing if you do. It's video game lore. You can't get any more insignificant regarding the importance of something, so, of course, it's nonsense. I also don't think my wordy vomit matters. That's why it's in a forum on FF14 and not to a politician. For it to matter, you would need to matter.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

First, thank you for your first post in this thread, where you curb-stomped Endwalker's narrative. <3 Secondly, thank you for continuing to post. You've alluded to some stuff that I've always found interesting (though I do wish you'd spell Emet right).

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You are welcome. Odd, the script made it this far, considering it's logically inconsistent. The franchise writers are prone to massive leaps of logic, scope and ability regarding their characters and themselves. This leads to dues ex machina-type situations and a cast of Mary sues, which are unrelatable.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Plato's Theory of Forms has issues. The issues it has mostly relate to mental perception and agreement on what the concepts behind the forms are. Like Plato believed abstracts like beauty or power are more real than any individual thing that presents them within itself. To assume this is true means one has to completely agree on what beauty or power is defined as. And it's only we the meat that make the definitions.

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Yes, Plato believed that the shape matter was subject to the world of forms, though I'm afraid I have to disagree with your take on people agreeing with precise definitions because that doesn't define the essence of the concept. One man can find a stunted corpse beautiful and another a wonderous piece of art, but that doesn't change the fundamental nature of a concept, only how it's brought forth as they are still experiencing the same thing but with different mediums, when it comes to power for example it simply the act of dominating the environment and those around you, you could have your opinion on the best way to do that, but it doesn't change the fundamental premise of the concept. This is why Plato used the example of a chair, you can have many forms of a chair, and you can disagree on what constitutes the best or how it should be made, but the essence of the idea is the same. For example, suppose you use a computer. In that case, the concept of the computer will remain the same no matter how it looks because the innate concept has almost nothing to do with looking the same as other pieces of technology. The idea of a computer performs a specific function, which is to compute things. Even if I travelled back in time or even forward, I could still recognise one or someone performing a good example of this would be in the Dune series with Mentats. If I brought someone from the 18th century and showed them a gun, a boat, or a house, for example, they would still know what it is.

I also agree that two cannot be separate and that one cannot exist without the other but the more you try to merge the two the more you are actually going to see a huge disparity between them and not only that the more you try the more your own innate understanding of the universal concept will improve.

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Originally Posted by Alec97

Opinions are free, and arrogance is earned. Most schools are underfunded pieces of garbage that fail to teach children how to read, write and act at grade level compared to their private counterparts.

I also don't feel the need to sound intelligent. That naturally happens, but you are showing your issues by targeting them.

You also never stated that I was wrong.

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I would have thought that was implied.

To spell it out: people who are intelligent and confident in their knowledge don't feel the need to insult other people and push laboured and pretentious arguments with no real relevance to continually try to assert their fragile sense of intellectual superiority.

And to that end, in the event you do actually have a valid point to make, you'll find that is subsequently lost when you engage with the other party with the emotional intelligence of a grapefruit. "Arrogance is earned", oh, yikes.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

There's technically a lot of places that have been mentioned as established locations ...

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Thought I'd replied to this, oops.

Ah, that's my bad then. I'm not well-versed in the nooks and crannies of Hydaelyn because I'm not super enthusiastic about them, though I guess what I was trying to say is we'll have traversed all the major continents by then for the most part. Saying that, I realise there's also a large part of Ilsabard we have yet to uncover, though how we'd do that with Garlemald now resolved, I'm not sure...

And I don't think the idea of space travel is entirely shut off to us forever now, especially given the writers' current propensity for bending the lore whichever way they like, lol. I can more than see them suddenly having the Scions going "oh, there's a planet here that miraculously survived"" or that somehow remained beyond Meteion's reach at some time in the future when it's convenient.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Have to admit, I am curious what they're going to do now after having mostly stripping away the world's greatest mysteries - the afterlife, the Twelve, the world's history and pre-history, the ancients, Hydaelyn and Zodiark, and how all these things tie into the modern world as we know it. I don't mean in terms of new NPCs and challenges. I mean like... the world itself, one of the greatest mysteries any game can present you with, has been almost completely demystified.

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There might not be much of the "big cosmic mysteries" left, but you don't need to involve those to make a good game, or to write a good story, do you?
The world still contains a lot of things and places to discover and explore, and lots of people we haven't met yet.

And of course the several remaining shards we haven't visited yet.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

I would have thought that was implied.

To spell it out: people who are intelligent and confident in their knowledge don't feel the need to insult other people and push laboured and pretentious arguments with no real relevance to try to assert their fragile sense of intellectual superiority continually.

To that end, if you have a valid point to make, you'll find that it is subsequently lost when you engage with the other party with the emotional intelligence of a grapefruit. "Arrogance is earned", oh, yikes.

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Read a book instead of trying to throw slurs. This is the pot calling the kettle black. You have a deep problem with this as it affects you. The education systems of the West have been called out for producing low-quality students for decades, especially in countries like Britian, America and France. The education system of the West isn't a human being either, and therefore, there is nothing to flaunt my so-called superiority over other than a failed system.

You think I'm acting superior when I'm merely pointing out how most people are ignorant because their governments, teachers and families have failed them, so they barely understand the foundational concepts upon which their society was built.

Yes, arrogance is earned, this is why elitism is rampant in academia, creative works, medical institutions and state craft etc. Humility is only a virtue when you've actually done something and it's amongst peers of like minded capability. I get you don't like it, but it's too bad life is unfair. Instead of trying to project your issues onto other people and add nothing to the conversation, you might want to attempt to fix them.

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Originally Posted by Alec97

I get you don't like it, but it's too bad life is unfair.

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Oh good, you're one of those.

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Originally Posted by Alec97

Read a book instead of trying to throw slurs.

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All you're doing is making broad, condescending assumptions and hideous generalisations about the level and quality of other people's education and then passing it off as a criticism of the system - and in this instance, seemingly insinuating an acquaintance with philosophy and classics is somehow a reliable indicator of both when you clearly know nothing about either.

It's true elitism can be found anywhere, but that's because unfortunately, many people pursue these fields for the wrong reasons and seek to propel themselves to the top to satisfy their egos than for any genuine love of learning or desire to better themselves, and that ultimately boils down to their personal issues and the underlying inferiority complexes fuelling them. Thankfully, however, everybody else capable of basic courtesy and self-introspection realises the ridiculousness of such behaviour and opts for human decency, rather than attempting to justify misguided self-importance with their own distorted view of the world.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

Oh good, you're one of those.

All you're doing is making broad, condescending assumptions and hideous generalisations about the level and quality of other people's education and then passing it off as a criticism of the system - and in this instance, seemingly insinuating an acquaintance with philosophy and classics is somehow a reliable indicator of both when you know nothing about either.

It's true elitism can be found anywhere, but that's because, unfortunately, many people pursue these fields for the wrong reasons and seek to propel themselves to the top to satisfy their egos rather than for any genuine love of learning or desire to better themselves, and that ultimately boils down to their issues and the underlying inferiority complexes fuelling them. Thankfully, however, everybody else capable of basic courtesy and self-introspection realises the ridiculousness of such behaviour and opts for human decency rather than attempting to justify misguided self-importance with their distorted view of the world.

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Generalisations exist to critique the general public. It’s why they are called generalisations. They aren't inherently wrong, nor is using them condescending or immoral. The only reason you would feel that way is because you feel personally attacked by it, or you know the type of person I'm talking about. The fact that you can't remain civil and need to start throwing slurs shows the very same lack of emotional maturity that you would label others with. You say you are capable of basic courtesy, but you haven't established it once.

This is a post about you

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Originally Posted by Renathras

In that case: Then you were wrong.

And look, you need to stop insisting things about people that aren't true. I was in no "absolute rate", and look, you were the one that read me saying "some people hate stuff, but some people just have different tastes, and that's okay", and you perceived that as a personal attack to which you responded very aggressively, did you not?

I differentiate between people critiquing arguments I make and people insulting me personally. For example "I disagree with your argument here, and here is why..." is not an attack on the person. "You are responding in bad faith and have a history of..." is an attack on the person. That should be clear...

...but why am I bothering? You aren't going to listen and you, despite your own sage advice, don't see you're doing the things you're accusing me of.

That said, I appreciate your best intentions and take that at face value of you being a decent person. My recommendation to you is to read what you just wrote here and in the post that I replied to above. Then go back and read this post:



And this post:



And ask yourself if you might need to listen to your own advice. In both cases, you took what I said as some kind of piercing personal attack, even though it wasn't (my first post wasn't directed at anyone, didn't mention anyone, didn't quote anyone, and I don't even recall interacting with you like this before such that you'd have any reason to think it DID apply to you in the first place). And in both cases, you responded aggressively. And in the second case, when you accused me of something - your first post accusing me of expressing false concern is an attack, btw - and I explained to you it was genuine concern, what was your response?

"No, it wasn't". You didn't listen to what I said, you didn't let me explain. You already decided you were personally insulted and you weren't going to let go of that since it was justifying your behavior. If you were wrong and I wasn't personally insulting you, it would mean your first post (and second) were uncalled for.

In essence, it looked like you flew into an absolute rage and responded like that because you felt slighted against or attacked.

You just said it is under no circumstances ever acceptable to behave as you did, right?

Yet...you did.

.

Again, I know you won't listen, but on the off chance maybe you aren't beyond reason, I'm saying in the hopes that you do. I don't believe you're a bad person, but you did what you just accused me of doing. And before I did it, at that.

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If you need help, I suggest you leave because you clearly can't deal with a differing opinion as you are inserting your baggage into it, but looking at the other posts you have made recently shows that you are only here to fight people by going on moral crusades instead of adding to the conversation. Instead of perceiving everyone as some form of ideological enemy, you might want to calm down.

“Oh good, you're one of those”. I would also add this is bigoted. Do you have a prejudice against people who see the world as intrinsically unfair or is there some more profound bias that you would like to label me but don't want to say? Either way, I doubt it's suitable for polite conversation and takes away from your so-called human decency.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

I might be wrong, but I think Meracydia/ the New World is one of, if not the last part of Hydaelyn left to be explored? If so, then perhaps with Dawntrail they're doing a clear sweep of Hydaelyn itself and then, having made shard and and space travel a relatively trivial affair, we'd be going to other reflections/ stars that would presumably have their own cultures and whatnot to fill in the sense of mystery that's been taken away.

...I'm not sure how effective it would be given that anything we'd hear on the other shards would just be their own interpretation of our history with Hydaelyn and a ShB rip, but maybe that's what they're going for. Come up with new zones and locations and stories less history-focused, but throw in a wink-wink-nudge-nudge moment about the Ancients to tickle the fans now and then.

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Theres also Aerslaent, the homeland of the roegadyn in the north. They left due to a tyrannical ruler but apparently theres still people living there. What happened? Did its government get replaced? Is their still oppression there? Is that land truly where all life originated from like what the roegadyn believe?

I would like a roe focused expansion please

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Originally Posted by Alec97

Generalisations exist to...

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Generalisations, especially those founded on nothing but a subscription to your own questionable criteria, are meaningless; they're self-serving, deeply flawed, highly subject to personal bias and subsequently, more often than not, completely wrong, and I'm amazed I should even have to point that out and why as a result they have no place in a real discussion. I also shouldn't have to explain why it's both condescending and entirely irrelevant to use such poorly pre-conceived notions to make any sort of sweeping judgement about an aspect of a someone's attributes in an argument. For all that you are trying to paint me as an injured party and yourself as the rational one here, your posts are surprisingly lacking in relatively basic logic.

Funnily enough, half of that conversation you're referring to is actually missing because of the way that particular individual wound up responding to several posters in that thread, and I'd suggest familiarising yourself with his history before you use that as a basis to make even more poor judgements based on selective and limited evidence. I frequently debate with other people here, and I greatly enjoy it, but I have no interest in opinions offered without thought or respect for the other party, nor maintaining a sense of decorum when absolutely none is shown in kind.

And for the record, hearing about bigotry from someone who considers an entire population of people intellectually beneath them because to your mind they're not sufficiently cognisant of the effects of Confucianism or Plato on media might be the winner for the grossest lack of self-awareness shown on these forums, and that's quite the accomplishment, I have to say. But to humour you: do I have a prejudice against people who think life is unfair? No. Do I take issue with using that attitude to justify poor behaviour towards other people? Absolutely.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

Generalisations, especially those founded on nothing but a subscription to your questionable criteria, are meaningless; they're self-serving, deeply flawed, highly subject to personal bias and subsequently, more often than not, completely wrong, and I'm amazed I should even have to point that out and why as a result they have no place in an honest discussion. I also shouldn't have to explain why it's condescending and entirely irrelevant to use such poorly pre-conceived notions to make any sweeping judgement about an aspect of someone's attributes in an argument. For all that you are trying to paint me as an injured party and yourself as the rational one here, your posts surprisingly lack relatively basic logic.

Funnily enough, half of that conversation you're referring to is missing because of the way that particular individual wound up responding to several posters in that thread. I'd suggest familiarising yourself with his history before you use that to make even more poor judgements based on selective and limited evidence. I frequently debate with other people here, and I greatly enjoy it. Still, I have no interest in opinions offered without thought or respect for the other party, nor maintaining a sense of decorum when absolutely none is shown in kind.

And for the record, hearing about bigotry from someone who considers an entire population of people intellectually beneath them because, to your mind, they're not sufficiently cognisant of the effects of Confucianism or Plato on media might be the winner for the grossest lack of self-awareness shown on these forums, and that's quite the accomplishment, I have to say. But to humour you: do I have a prejudice against people who think life is unfair? No. Do I take issue with using that attitude to justify poor behaviour towards others? Absolutely.

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I love how you assume that it's my own internalised criteria. This has been a massive concern across education for the past 20 years, especially around things such as funding, staffing, and grading attainment compared to private models, trying to bridge the gap in trying to promote a more equitable society. The falling grade standard and grade inflation compared to previous models were grades used to be far more challenging to achieve and expected a lot more, classes have been streamlined, and what was on offer has shrunk, etc. We have even seen the collective overall IQ in the younger generations decrease by around 5 points, which is enormous because it's the best-determining factor of future success. In generations with far smaller cohorts, it's incredibly worrying because that means we are producing smaller amounts of people who are less intelligent than their parents. This has been a trend since the '80s and even the post-World War II generations have very few outstanding thought leaders compared to generations before and post-WW1.

It's clear that you have disdain for people who you beleive are antithetical to your values. That entire conversation was someone telling you that you don't listen, you project your internal flaws on them, label them things they aren't. Then, double down on your vulgar attitude while acting like a righteous individual, and even if they responded to you, it wouldn't matter because you had already made your mind up and wouldn't listen.

The only person here who has received poor treatment is you because you took issue with one point in a massive post and then continued to make it about yourself because you have internalised problems. Get help.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alec97

Generalisations exist to critique the general public. It’s why they are called generalisations.

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No, that is not why they exist, nor why they are called that.
Try educating yourself, so you know what words mean before you use them.

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Originally Posted by Swordsman

So basically the writers for EW, lmao. I remember I said something like this before. Parts of FFXIV's story sound awfully a lot like someone pretending to be knowledgeable about philosophy when in fact they barely understand any of it.

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Lmao its funny because as someone who took into to philosophy, and who still flips through the book from time to time, when I stop to think about it this is like dead accurate. I think that's why people love Emet as a character. There were no games or gimmicks, he was who he was, and his portion of the story is what really gave the game the quality FF feel, at least to me. Like he along with like the soft restart in a new world made that story incredibly strong. He was almost like Tidus, who was guiding the story to its conclusion until a certain point then its a "who knows what happens next".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

I might be wrong, but I think Meracydia/ the New World is one of, if not the last part of Hydaelyn left to be explored? If so, then perhaps with Dawntrail they're doing a clear sweep of Hydaelyn itself and then, having made shard and and space travel a relatively trivial affair, we'd be going to other reflections/ stars that would presumably have their own cultures and whatnot to fill in the sense of mystery that's been taken away.

...I'm not sure how effective it would be given that anything we'd hear on the other shards would just be their own interpretation of our history with Hydaelyn and a ShB rip, but maybe that's what they're going for. Come up with new zones and locations and stories less history-focused, but throw in a wink-wink-nudge-nudge moment about the Ancients to tickle the fans now and then.

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Mark my damn words. Ascians are coming back one way or another. That or there will be something like "who made the ascians" that will trigger us to have to go back to elpis, and in turn talk to emet, venat, etc. etc. etc. again. ESPECIALLY considering the mystery of Azem.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

No, that is not why they exist, nor why they are called that.
Try educating yourself so you know what words mean before you use them.

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I love how you tell me to educate myself and then forgo giving the so-called education you've received. You will probably say it's not my job to educate you next.

A generalisation is used to speak about things which apply to the general public because that's who we are talking about, which can range from something very specific to something very broad. There will always be exceptions to the rule and those exceptions usually do prove the rule or provide indicators about specific issues which happen disprortilnatly within the specified group. So for example Celtic people have red hair is a generalisation and a very broad one but what it hints at is the higher percentage the rate at which they produce people with it even among Europeans. Generalisations are fine when your talking about something which is measurable, it won't affect everyone but it doesn't need to. It's only very recently that people like to have issues with generalisations because they want everyone to come up with an academic paper before saying something since it doesn't match their lived experience.

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Originally Posted by Alec97

I love how you tell me to educate myself and then forgo giving the so-called education you've received. You will probably say it's not my job to educate you next.

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Since I don't know where you work, I don't know what your job is - but I sure hope it does not involve educating me, or anyone else. Getting a good education is much preferable.

If it weren’t for a friend of mine who just deleted her account, I might not have come back here to talk about the plot of this game. I know she put a lot of love and money into this game. Many of my friends have given up on the plot of this game, they used to like the plot, or like being the hero protagonist… But after version 6.0, the game chose the most stupid and cheap mobile romance game writing style.

Why are the scions always in the game? Because this writing style is to make you have a good relationship with every character, but it usually destroys the character’s shaping. (Zenos is an exception, you know what he is like). Insisting on using only this writing style will make you unable to write a good new character, which is why they have to keep using the old characters.

The writers have been doing this since 6.0, there is no need to be surprised at 6.X. In 6.0, they took advantage of the already shaped characters, and many people cheered. But the old characters are used up now, it’s that simple.

Why can’t this writing style shape good characters? Because it doesn’t care about the character’s emotions and motivations, first the writers lose respect for the character, and then this respect will be perceived by you subconsciously. It suits those players who will never empathize with the characters, and only want to get a few words of love confession. These players can like both the ancients and Hydealyn at the same time, they tell yoshiP they like it this way. This is the result.
My friends are all desperate, my writer friend expressed sympathy for the writing team, and then chose to skip the plot. I don’t know what I’m holding on to. The plot of pandemonium is rare not to use this writing style. (Except for the Themis part) The writers seem to want to remind the players of something desperately. It’s a pity it won’t work.

Players who like to study the plot found that after 6.0, the world view setting was changed, the original interesting setting was abandoned, the characters became strangers, and the protagonist was no longer the hero of the past. Humans are emotional animals, and players who really have feelings for this world and the characters will empathize with this world and those characters, and then feel that the final days is coming. In fact, most of the writers are not willing to destroy everything they have built, even if you pick up a kitten on the side of the road, you will not want to throw it to death, let alone the world and characters that have been shaped for several years. Just like a vase made by the writer, it was smashed in 6.0, very loud and beautiful. The audience cheered, and the host was satisfied. Next, they picked up the pieces on the ground and continued to smash them, which was not so good-looking. They squeezed out a mud ball with their hands and threw it to the ground, which was even worse. At this time, the players asked: Where did the vase go? We want a more beautiful vase.”

I do believe that the quality has definitely gone down. Don't get me wrong, I haven't always played the game for the story, and I've been saying this since ARR, but...I'm really, REALLY starting to lose interest in it now. They've basically cleaned the entire slate and removed any and all mystery from the game world and made questionable decisions regarding various characters all the while. What few interesting characters we've had have either died, were ruined by the writers or have been sent away indefinitely. Also, just because story/lore elements have been around for a decade, doesn't mean that they need to be thrown out just because they're old. It's the little details that make a game interesting, in my opinion. A certain level of intrigue does wonders for player interest. The game needs to feel more interesting again, and right now...it just feels hollowed out.

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Originally Posted by Alec97

I love how you assume...

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Again, you're merely attempting to disguise the real issue of your lousy attitude with flimsy and poorly-substantiated arguments about the education system. And even if this were a genuine debate about the general state of education in the West - an area of discussion so vast it's impossible to make such generalised judgements about any aspect of anyway, which is the main point you seem to be missing - none of what you have suggested can even be used as evidence to that effect, being a hodgepodge of vague statements with nothing behind them and a reference to a single study that even the researchers emphasised cannot be relied upon to draw any meaningful conclusion about the current nature of public education from. Correlation does not imply causation, and there are myriad factors at play relating to the topic you're also ignoring because of rampant confirmation bias.

But it's a futile argument from the outset, built on your arbitrary definition of a "quality" education you've constructed to elevate yourself and insult and make unfounded assumptions about other people you know nothing about all because they disagreed with you, and it ultimately has no purpose beyond being a vehicle your own arrogance. If you actually had even the slightest interest in education, you would already know what I've told you.

Somehow, I don't think I'm the one that needs help here, but considering the other individual also had a similar habit of deflecting any criticism he received towards others while screaming at them in the process, I'm not surprised you'd find cause for agreement with him.

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Originally Posted by Ephremjlm

Mark my damn words. Ascians are coming back one way or another. That or there will be something like "who made the ascians" that will trigger us to have to go back to elpis, and in turn talk to emet, venat, etc. etc. etc. again. ESPECIALLY considering the mystery of Azem.

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Oh, I don't doubt it. For all their current obsession with sweeping them under the rug, the moment the numbers truly start to drop, you can count on Emet-Selch to make a surprise appearance as a reincarnation, or the ramifications of the Hydaelyn/ Zodiark conflict to matter all of a sudden.

I've been a pretty big defender of this game all through Endwalker, and I still am...for the most part. But I have also been spending significantly less time playing than I used to. These days, I only log in when there's a patch to do the new MSQ content and raids, then peace out till the next patch cycle. Which is unheard of for me.

My biggest issue with the story right now is that this whole storyline with Golbez was completely unnecessary for our characters. I mean, I guess they needed us to defeat the trial boss, but frankly, this was Zero's story. She was the main character and the one who had the story arc. Everything was about her personal journey.

Which would have been fine if she ended up being a new permanent companion. But it didn't. And that leads into my second issue: I thought we were getting new companions?

I asked this question on social media, Reddit, Discord etc when the trailer for Dawntrail launched. All I saw was the Scions.

Maybe that's just for the trailer and at some point in the expansion, we'll get new companions and the Scions will finally go their separate ways. But I was really looking forward to new characters to experience the new story with.

Instead it's just the Scions. Over and over and over again. And I bloody like the Scions! But that doesn't mean I wasn't ready for a break.

Also, and I know this is just a me issue, but I find dark characters and dark stories very appealing. Not necessarily edgelord stories, but characters whose arcs are not completed by the friends they made along the way. I get tired of that.

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Originally Posted by Alec97

I also don't feel the need to sound intelligent. That naturally happens...

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I have bad news.

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Originally Posted by Lium

Also, and I know this is just a me issue, but I find dark characters and dark stories very appealing. Not necessarily edgelord stories, but characters whose arcs are not completed by the friends they made along the way. I get tired of that.

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I am the same way.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I am the same way.

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Im indifferent to both dark and feel good characters and stories. Both themes are too easy to make. I rather have something thats more substantial and compelling. So far FFXIV has yet to do that for me with its story.

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Originally Posted by Alec97

Opinions are free, and arrogance is earned. Most schools are underfunded pieces of garbage that fail to teach children how to read, write and act at grade level compared to their private counterparts.

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Bro how the fuck do you type that whole thing out and thing "oh yeah, I'm way smarter than the other losers in these forums. I probably sound like Aristotle"? I am embarrassed for you man

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Originally Posted by Rychu

Bro how the fuck do you type that whole thing out and thing "oh yeah, I'm way smarter than the other losers in these forums. I probably sound like Aristotle"? I am embarrassed for you man

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Its peak rich snooty kid lol.