Manderville Relic Criticism

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Originally Posted by Keytchouka

I have only one problem with the Reaper relic. We have "young" job who has trouble finding good glamour and you add a weapon with some colors never seen before. Why the colors of the weapons don't match with the jobs vfx colors?

Like what is this yellow/green fluo? On a job where the main color are red/black/purple/green? Who thought i was a good idea?

https://i.imgur.com/d0LmIrM.png

Please stop adding colors who don't match the jobs. It don't make any sense

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One of the devs forgot what game they were working on and accidentally made a WoW demonhunter warglaive instead.

I will never be able to take the people on this forum seriously as long as so many of them are like 'hello I would like more boring content please'.

I was just thinking, they could easily turn this relic grind around with the final step being the most grueling, long and god-awful series of objectives that would actually make you for how simple and easy the previous steps were.

This would troll the playerbase so hard and it would arguably fitting to the unpredictable nature of the Mandervilles.

It's so not gonna happen but imagine if they went with this idea

I still don't think it's the tomestone grind that is the problem with this relic series.

Sure, I might have had enough Causality this morning to buy my first upgrade immediately but I'll still need to grind it out for any other upgrades I want. I won't get them in the mail

I'm much happier being able to choose what content I do to get the tomestones instead of being forced into farming a specific piece of content that I might not enjoy and would get really tedious after running it for the 20th time in a row. No one is limited to roulettes. They can farm any of the level 90 dungeons, trials and raids, They can do Variant or Criterion. They can do hunts or EW treasure maps. There's a lot of different choices and we're free to mix and match so we don't get bored instead of sticking to one specific method for the sake of efficiency. Grinds do not have to forced and unenjoyable for the final reward to feel worthwhile.

The problem is not the tomestones. The problem is Manderville.

Where the relic quests of the past have had some rather serious themes that made the relics feel important, this time around we're stuck with a obscenely wealthy Syndicate member indulging a personal whim to reproduce some obscure historical family weaponry while once again we also help his spoiled and oblivious son in and out of mischief that has been a pure slapstick comedy routine throughout the game. The last minute attempt in the new quest chain to make the reproductions seem more serious doesn't really work (at least for me).

Don't get me wrong - I enjoy Hildibrand as comedy relief content but those quests need to be their own separate thing, isolated from other content. The relic series is not the place for him to be.

The development team needs to consider what relic weapons are supposed to represent in the eyes of the players and plan the associated quest lore with that in mind.

But one thing that will come out of this: for a change I will end up getting multiple relics weapons because I get to choose what content I do to earn them instead of being told I must do XYZ content that I may not like. No reward is worth investing dozens or hundreds of hours in content I don't enjoy. I'll move on to doing the content I do enjoy instead.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

I will never be able to take the people on this forum seriously as long as so many of them are like 'hello I would like more boring content please'.

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Why are you here if you find the content in the game boring? Surely there must be something you enjoy that will earn you the Causality tomestones.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

I still don't think it's the tomestone grind that is the problem with this relic series.

Sure, I might have had enough Causality this morning to buy my first upgrade immediately but I'll still need to grind it out for any other upgrades I want. I won't get them in the mail

I'm much happier being able to choose what content I do to get the tomestones instead of being forced into farming a specific piece of content that I might not enjoy and would get really tedious after running it for the 20th time in a row. No one is limited to roulettes. They can farm any of the level 90 dungeons, trials and raids, They can do Variant or Criterion. They can do hunts or EW treasure maps. There's a lot of different choices and we're free to mix and match so we don't get bored instead of sticking to one specific method for the sake of efficiency. Grinds do not have to forced and unenjoyable for the final reward to feel worthwhile.

The problem is not the tomestones. The problem is Manderville.

Where the relic quests of the past have had some rather serious themes that made the relics feel important, this time around we're stuck with a obscenely wealthy Syndicate member indulging a personal whim to reproduce some obscure historical family weaponry while once again we also help his spoiled and oblivious son in and out of mischief that has been a pure slapstick comedy routine throughout the game. The last minute attempt in the new quest chain to make the reproductions seem more serious doesn't really work (at least for me).

Don't get me wrong - I enjoy Hildibrand as comedy relief content but those quests need to be their own separate thing, isolated from other content. The relic series is not the place for him to be.

The development team needs to consider what relic weapons are supposed to represent in the eyes of the players and plan the associated quest lore with that in mind.

But one thing that will come out of this: for a change I will end up getting multiple relics weapons because I get to choose what content I do to earn them instead of being told I must do XYZ content that I may not like. No reward is worth investing dozens or hundreds of hours in content I don't enjoy. I'll move on to doing the content I do enjoy instead.


Why are you here if you find the content in the game boring? Surely there must be something you enjoy that will earn you the Causality tomestones.

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I would disagree on the questlines tone. I don't think anybody actually cares about the story in the relics, they've always just been a content grind that's the appeal

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Why are you here if you find the content in the game boring? Surely there must be something you enjoy that will earn you the Causality tomestones.

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What do you mean why am I here? I am directly benefitting from the relic grind becoming smoother and shorter. I very much prefer this expansion's relic over the previous ones.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

So, instead you just want to farm some random old dungeon a couple dozen times, because that's somehow more fun or engaging? Personally, I like the freedom to do whatsoever whets my whistle and make progress on the relic at the same time. If it bugs you that much, just create your own specific grind. Let one class use Alliance Raids only, another one Expert Dungeons, another one Hunt Trains, etc.. What I find annoying is - for example - I'm up to the step in the Bozja chain where you need 15 of an item that drops specifically from Level 70 Dungeons or HOH. I have little interest in the Deep Dungeons, and running 15 level 70 dungeons on a now-level 90 class is boring. Doing what I find fun and making progress regardless? Thank you.

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Sometimes I wonder if these kind of people ever played MMORPGs before early 10s.

This genre was built upon long term rewards. If you want short term dopamine shots, then you have so many games to pick from. Every single MOBA, FPS, BRs, nearly all popular games are like that.

Quite often, journey is more important than a destination. Relics have very "meh" destination, and now EW deleted even the journey. So what's left?

This dumb hyperbole that "It's better than running 999 old dungeons" is so cheap, nobody wants that. World isn't black and white, you can have a compromise, not just one side of an extreme. Even if you wanted to make a grind using only content old, you can still do it in a sensible way, just learn how to make fun grinds from GW2 devs.

Or ever better, you don't even need to make a grind using old content, IS, V&C and EO are all brand new content which have no meaningful rewards, it's all one and done, so just connect this content without rewards, to a rewards without progression system and voila, everything fits perfectly.

Before all the "acktushly, it would be worse because of X or Y strawman arguments", here's one of my suggestions/draft from a while back. It's not perfect, it could definitely be refined. It makes a grind more involved, gives freedom of choice, and isn't too grindy if you choose no to make it grindy. It's only an example of possible one step, another steps could follow similar path:

Material X - you get this either from:

IS - Buy it for blue Cowries. This is effectively passive income for this material. If you don't want any grind, you can get all of this material here, albeit at slow, time-gated pace

V&C - You get X amount of material in here, you also get daily bonus material. Harder versions give similar amounts so the casuals don't whine.

EO - Same as V&C. If you get bored of V&C, you can farm this material here or vice-versa. You get another bonus for finishing certain floor sets. No 21-30 spamming.

Now all three content which died 1 or 2 weeks after release have at least some meaning.

This could be expanded much further. Next step, for example, you need X amount of Y, so you can do current AR/NR and get amount which is balanced (as if neither AR or NR give significantly more for time invested, unlike Anima and A9S) and/or you can also buy this for some tomes.

This would give you wide variety of things you can do. It won't force you to spam same thing over and over. There should be daily bonuses, so that you can choose lesser grind, but with more time-gating if you wish so.

I would like something similar to a ff11 relic grind but not take as long but at least have multiple objectives to complete them.

Yeah... I feel it should not be locked behind a side quest and the variant dungeon should be associated with it just like resistance weapon And bozja. Maybe you know, need 15 memory crystals from variant dungeon.

they are pretty tho

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

We're all just here to keep the roulette machine running. Don't think there's anything else logical about the decision apart from that.

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This is absolutely the reason. Just as they gave the option to do HW fates to populate those areas in ShB, they are doing the same thing here. Upsurge in new players in ShB, keep the endgame players doing roulettes at all costs.

I will be so great if we had something like demon hunter who can match with it

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

One of the devs forgot what game they were working on and accidentally made a WoW demonhunter warglaive instead.

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It will be great if we had a demonhunter armor for reaper yeah

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Originally Posted by TheNight

First steps of ARR: Multiple steps were released in the patch, even in the first step we got two trials
First steps of HW: 3 steps were released in the first patch. They reused old content (FATEs, dungeons, hunts, GC seals, crafting, tomes) but it was a significantly longer grind and it also had far more variety.
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First step of EW: 1500 tomes...

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I wanted a normal relic quest like we used to have instead of another exploratory zone. Looks like the dev in charge of this got salty and just turned it into tome weapons instead of actually producing content. There is no special tinkering or development of the weapon nor uncovering new people and locations to aid us in our quest. Just one tome vendor.

They need to step up the relics glows and make them dyable. So you can dye not only the weapon, but change the color of the glow. So you can customize the look bit more on relics. Cause another red glow on rdm swords great and all, but would be nice to have options on the glows.

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Originally Posted by Rikizza

they are pretty tho

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This.

This stage they actually (somehow?) made a good SCH/SMN book. Books typically are pretty meh, and they overdo it with massive size and filigree, but these ones they did a pretty cool LCD rainbow pattern on the words. The DRK and PLD swords got a similar treatment, and they all look cool.

As always, there are hits and misses, successes and duds, but the fact they actually made (at least from my first glances at them, hope to have my own soon since it'll be my 2nd and 3rd buy) books look cool FOR ONCE is something I like. The last time I liked a book was ARR for SCH (and not the final step, the Zenith step, I think, when you got the white book and got the first stage soft glow; SB was okay and all, but the wings were too...TOO much, and the book design ITSELF had too much filigree, as did the Zeta) and largely ARR for SMN (Apocalypse is just such a good design to me, and the glow accentuates it without overpowering it; even when people do that weird /sit thing, it still looks cool instead of having weird "phantom pages" like some of the other designs). Some people love the HW SMN one for the Bahamut wings, but I don't care much for the book model itself, and the wings are again a bit over the top sticking out and don't really accentuate the design itself.

Holding judgement until I see the final form (and actually get my own so I can see it close up with my character animations and outfits), but I like the look of the 6.45 stage so far on the Jobs I play the most.

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by Reinha

I wanted a normal relic quest like we used to have instead of another exploratory zone. Looks like the dev in charge of this got salty and just turned it into a tome weapons instead of actually producing content. There is no special tinkering or development of the weapon nor uncovering new people and locations to aid us in our quest. Just one tome vendor.

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Honestly, a part of me was hoping they'd do ARR again. EXACTLY like ARR. 2-3 day waits on specific FATEs where if you're not online AND IN THAT ZONE in their 15 minute window - with some requiring prerequisite FATEs be done successfully meaning if you missed THOSE, it was another 2-3 day wait, where it was so bad, people were staying logged in 24/7 to get them and even paying other people to stay logged into their account when they had to go to work or school to not miss the FATE (and/or prerequisite FATEs) when they spawned - and yes, this was a real thing. Grinding difficult enemies in the overworld in areas without flying and tightly packed high level enemies that could kill you relatively easily if pulled too many at once. FATE drops with such a low drop rate, people were asking on the forums if the zones even had a drop (recall there was even a typo that led to that being true in the case of Eastern La Noscea, I think it is, the one with Costa Del Sol not having an Atma) and people could be at it for days just to see ONE drop, low drop rates for the dungeon final boss items where you could run a single dungeon dozens of times and not get the drop, and then having to do that for a dozen different dungeons, super expensive materials that even people with the gold mounts can't afford and normal people can't afford until a couple expansions later when gil is inflated and various steps are nerfed, where the item required you to get end-game gear to 100% Spiritbind AND THEN DESTROY THE GEAR (remember, extracting Materia used to destroy the gear piece in the process and did up until...ShB?), etc.

Give people the REAL ARR Relic grind experience and no sane person would ever ask for it again.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

Because there comes a certain point where doing the same thing ad nauseum creates burnout. The more jobs there are, the more potential relics you're looking to get, the more you might have to do the same exact grinds over and over and over to do that. Consider how one of the biggest complaints WoW received in Shadowlands was that you were originally forced to have each and every toon you created go through the same story quests, so much a problem that they ended up implementing an "alternate" route that let you get all the xp you needed by doing - get this - whatever you wanted, and then once you hit max level, you could skip the story quests. The relic grind in FFXIV acknowledges that issue by letting you do effectively whatever you want from the start to chip away at the grind.

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Going to assume that you completely skipped the part of my post that you didn't quote. A safe assumption considering your Shadowlands example.

"The more jobs there are, the more potential relics you're looking to get"
As I pointed out in my post, there's multiple alternatives to obtaining weapons for alternate jobs. You don't have to get a relic on all of them. A crafted, EX trial, or tomestone weapon will do just fine. These alternative options have been available for about two months now, as well.

Oh, and you might be misremembering your Shadowlands example. The leveling campaign skip system that you're referring to, called Threads of Fate, was already a thing at launch.

I did not have “relics should be balanced around people who want to get all 19 so each individual one should be vanishingly easy” on my ffxiv 2023 bingo card but here we are

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

So excuse me for showing some concern for a person and whether they're truly happy playing the game. You know how to put me on ignore if it rubs you the wrong way.

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you rub everyone the wrong way lmao

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I would disagree on the questlines tone. I don't think anybody actually cares about the story in the relics, they've always just been a content grind that's the appeal

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Actually I rather enjoyed the questing in Eureka and Bozja (Bozja especially).

Relics very much should expand on the lore of FFXIV.

Hey guys, seasoned relic grinder here. This relic has been the worst because it's not a "relic", its a free bis weapon given to everyone equally. There is no grind, and that's the issue. People saying that this is good don't actually care about what relics were meant to be: an alternative to doing savage for expansion BiS Weapons (for the more casual crowd) and the grind is meant to be a long-term goal (which gives you satisfaction when you complete it)
"Manderville quests are the grind!" no? lmao you can just skip them? and I didn't consider them to be a grind initially because iirc Yoshida told us that the questline would be required ahead of time, skip it if you didn't like it then
"You can do any content like old relics" not really, the most effective ways to complete these relics are time gated. Daily roulettes and hunt trains based on real-time timers aren't "grindable". Yes, you can do current content at lv90 but the issue is the lack of variety. I've done current content more than enough at this point and giving a incentive to run older content OR other current content, like implementing a reason to do V&C dungeons as part of the relic steps. As a side note, doing the lv70 dungeons for Bozja relics was fun because we had a speedrun duty, Hells Lid with a party of Blu. That's fun and gave us a nice use of Blue Mage if you had it
"If you want to run *insert duty here* 100x you can do it yourself!" I don't understand the point of doing something with no incentive? Relics give a reason to revisit old dungeons for me atleast, and I would think thats the case for many others. Also, yes let me queue for void ark or ivalice- oh... 3 hour queue... if only people ran it...
To me most of the praises for these non-steps of 1500 tomes are people that don't do relics. You could have the grind but make it better? Yes I agree 15 alliance raids is bad but I think they were alright because it was variety. I expected them to also do 1-time steps too because that was a good addition for bozjan relics. I don't even have an issue with tomes, its just we are doing the same exact duties for the Entire Expansion.
All in all, seeing people say that "relics are good now" is upsetting because that was never the point to them lol they weren't meant to be handouts. I understand if people enjoy them because they can get them easily this time, I get it! but to say this is "better relics" is missing the point.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I did not have “relics should be balanced around people who want to get all 19 so each individual one should be vanishingly easy” on my ffxiv 2023 bingo card but here we are

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If you think the bar can't go lower, think again.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

If you think the bar can't go lower, think again.

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As a legacy player I know just how low the bar can go

This one in particular just wasn’t an excuse I thought people would dream up

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I did not have “relics should be balanced around people who want to get all 19 so each individual one should be vanishingly easy” on my ffxiv 2023 bingo card but here we are

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Even as somebody who always go hard for relics (I have all expac's relics completed, working on Mandervilles right now), the EW relic steps has been a disappointment after disappointment.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Someone doesn't have to like all of the game.

Someone who refers to game content as boring doesn't sound like they like any of the game. Why would I encourage that someone to keep playing the game it if bores them? It's not in their best interest even if it's in the game's best interest.

No one here is a mind reader. If they would instead say "I find this particular content boring", that establishes that there are other parts they don't find boring. There would be no reason to suggest that person may want to stop playing this game.

Misunderstands are going to happen when broad sweeping terms inclusive of many things get used instead talking about the specific problem area.

Ultimately, I want to see everyone do what is in their personal best interest. If they're unhappy overall playing a game, even if there's a small part of the game they do enjoy, they're probably better off not playing the game for a while. Take a break, do other things, then come back. Distance for a time can be helpful in seeing just how much you really enjoy a game - or how much you really don't. A lot of gamers end up miserable because they stuck around in a game for the sake of a single piece of content without seeing how miserable the rest of the game was making them feel. If nothing else, the break can help prevent burnout from setting in.

So excuse me for showing some concern for a person and whether they're truly happy playing the game. You know how to put me on ignore if it rubs you the wrong way.

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What made you think I was calling all content boring instead of just calling relic content boring?

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I was just thinking, they could easily turn this relic grind around with the final step being the most grueling, long and god-awful series of objectives that would actually make you for how simple and easy the previous steps were.

This would troll the playerbase so hard and it would arguably fitting to the unpredictable nature of the Mandervilles.

It's so not gonna happen but imagine if they went with this idea

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Jeez, don't threaten me with a good time. Just the rage posts on Reddit would make that worth it, let alone having to you know, actually do something for once?.

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

Jeez, don't threaten me with a good time. Just the rage posts on Reddit would make that worth it, let alone having to you know, actually do something for once?.

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Those unhinged Reddit posts are absolutely hilarious though.
I had someone call me a "Whiny, entitled, malcontent contrarian who has given up on reality" because I said EW was a terrible expansion.
Hilarious.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Those unhinged Reddit posts are absolutely hilarious though.
I had someone call me a "Whiny, entitled, malcontent contrarian who has given up on reality" because I said EW was a terrible expansion.
Hilarious.

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I just read a post on mainsub of someone asking if FFXIV has dead open world zones like WoW. It was really entertaining to read the responses.

One response started already completely derailed, saying good stuff about free trial, then it said that zones can be dead at certain times (aka not a prime time), and then derailing back to how amazing free trial is.

Then another one started with "There's usually plenty of people in every zone". lol, lmao even.

Another said that you will start to appreciate the loneliness. Like yeah, it's so cool that Massively Online Multiplayer game feels dead.

For real, these people are hilarious, they should start writing fantasy novels with their imagination. I've heard theory that those people see FFXIV as their livelihood and reason to live, so they go full bonkers whenever anyone dares to criticize it in any way. That's where the toxic positivity starts.

This is the reason why you only ever read negative opinions on this forum, because posting them on reddit is utterly pointless. The people on the main sub would probably still struggle to call an XIV expansion bad if it replaced all content with 20$ store purchases.

I do agree in seems like they didn't put any effort into it but working on older relic I never finished fills a lot of my game time.

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Originally Posted by Deo14

One response started already completely derailed, saying good stuff about free trial, then it said that zones can be dead at certain times (aka not a prime time), and then derailing back to how amazing free trial is.

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gotta hand it to SE, they have a whole community of yes-men to do their advertising for them

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Originally Posted by Saraide

What made you think I was calling all content boring instead of just calling relic content boring?

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Because this expansion content that tends to come up most in conversation is relic content - roulettes, dungeons, raids, trials, treasure maps, hunts, anything that might reward Causality (or Astronomy while it was the relevant currency).

Probably a bad assumption on my part at the time so my apologies.

having completed 17 Relics in EW, I welcome this change.

The relic questline I enjoyed the most was the HW one, with ARR being second place if only due to how tedious the book part was. Prune that part down a bit and it would be perfect. I absolutely despised Eureka and felt similarly about Bozja. I don't mind if those types of content exists, I just don't want relics gated behind them. Relics were content for me until Stormblood and Shadowbringers, and I can't even go back and rofl-stomp my way to get them since the unique zone leveling mechanics and hp sponge mobs are still a thing. Now they are content for me once more, though I do admit it seems less story driven. But I'll take Manderville relics over Eureka relics any day.

If I could have my way, future relics would work entirely like the initial stages of Bozja that had alternate means/story elements to advance the relic that didn't require engaging with Bozja directly. Then the people who like that style of content can enjoy it and people like me can still do the relic grind without engaging with content we abhor.

Yeah, I think people have a valid reason to complain. The HW relic was equivalent of 14000ish tomes per relic. Of course, there were options to obtain about 8000-poetics-worth of those items by other methods (dailies for example). But in reality, think about it. How different is it? Either you run a leveling roulette 3 times to get 18 Singing Clusters or you spam dungeons to earn tomes to buy them.

I don't think people realize that when you break it down the ARR, HW, EW and to some extent ShB relics were pretty much all the same. After you cleared Bozja, you could obtain most of the memories from doing non-Bozja content. If anything, at least the EW has an actual parallel quest you do along the way. There really wasn't anything to ARR and HW. Just an NPC that said "gee, can you now go fetch X items for me?"

It's all the same.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

Yeah, I think people have a valid reason to complain. The HW relic was equivalent of 14000ish tomes per relic. Of course, there were options to obtain about 8000-poetics-worth of those items by other methods (dailies for example). But in reality, think about it. How different is it? Either you run a leveling roulette 3 times to get 18 Singing Clusters or you spam dungeons to earn tomes to buy them.

I don't think people realize that when you break it down the ARR, HW, EW and to some extent ShB relics were pretty much all the same. After you cleared Bozja, you could obtain most of the memories from doing non-Bozja content. If anything, at least the EW has an actual parallel quest you do along the way. There really wasn't anything to ARR and HW. Just an NPC that said "gee, can you now go fetch X items for me?"

It's all the same.

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Its all for the tea kettle in the end with the ARR relic.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

Yeah, I think people have a valid reason to complain. The HW relic was equivalent of 14000ish tomes per relic. Of course, there were options to obtain about 8000-poetics-worth of those items by other methods (dailies for example). But in reality, think about it. How different is it? Either you run a leveling roulette 3 times to get 18 Singing Clusters or you spam dungeons to earn tomes to buy them.

I don't think people realize that when you break it down the ARR, HW, EW and to some extent ShB relics were pretty much all the same. After you cleared Bozja, you could obtain most of the memories from doing non-Bozja content. If anything, at least the EW has an actual parallel quest you do along the way. There really wasn't anything to ARR and HW. Just an NPC that said "gee, can you now go fetch X items for me?"

It's all the same.

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Except that wasn’t how the HW relic was at launch, this come up way too often, launch anima for example had a step that required you to craft items that needed materials from old diadem and required pretty highly geared crafters, another step required an item you could trade sets of materia for, crafting scrips, demateria, beast tribe items, gathering scrips, extreme tokens or fate rewards to get

The idea that anima was just another poetics grind is pretty much exclusively created by people who did the relics when all the steps had been replaced with “buy the item that used to have 6838582? Ways to collect with being accessible by poetics

Also glad to see people finally acknowledge that mainsub absolutely refuses to acknowledge any criticism and will either just insult you or deflect the criticism

I had someone on there who asked me for an example of a failed job system in 14, I answered with stormblood lilies, immediately I got downvoted to hell and everyone was replying with some combination of “blood for the blood lily” or “I just hate WHM”, when I tried to explain I meant stormblood lilies only (I’m indifferent to ShB lilies) everyone basically just said they were exactly the same and I was just a hater, I then got muted

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Except that wasn’t how the HW relic was at launch, this come up way too often, launch anima for example had a step that required you to craft items that needed materials from old diadem

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No it did not. That was one of the options to get the item, but not the only one. As someone who did all Anima Weapons steps as they dropped, I can assure you that they didn't require any crafting for them specifically; you could craft to get sand but that was one of many options, nor was Diadem even relevant to the relics.

That aside, I think people really need to consider that the relic direction was set in stone from the start and wasn't going to change. Back in February of last year we were told that 6.1 thru 6.3 were already fully planned out and in development; if not already complete, and that 6.4 and 6.5 were in the planning stages and 7.0 was already in light development. The live game is always at least a year or more behind where they are in development, so changes between patches aren't going to just "happen" because of our feedback, as the things we are criticizing and their follow-up are likely already complete by the time we see the first iteration.

It sucks, yes, but people need to really pay attention to how things work. They're incredibly transparent with how they approach development and that information is readily available, so we should know when and how much to temper our expectations.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Also glad to see people finally acknowledge that mainsub absolutely refuses to acknowledge any criticism and will either just insult you or deflect the criticism

I had someone on there who asked me for an example of a failed job system in 14, I answered with stormblood lilies, immediately I got downvoted to hell and everyone was replying with some combination of “blood for the blood lily” or “I just hate WHM”, when I tried to explain I meant stormblood lilies only (I’m indifferent to ShB lilies) everyone basically just said they were exactly the same and I was just a hater, I then got muted

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When you think the forums are dumb, just go look at Reddit it's actually filled with NPCs. It's become a thing in the game too sadly, people making the same unfunny Reddit joke for the 738742883th time. It almost feels like playing with Trusts but they added ChatGPT to it.