Does the average XIV player know how to play their jobs?

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Originally Posted by Renalt

https://i.ibb.co/6B3twyF/meh.jpg

My paint skills are elementary. However the average is green/blue IMO

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But... I don't have a color on there... I mess around not giving a shit making ppl wonder how I didn't get hit by some things. To which I reply. "I'm a Cat. If I fits I sits" >.>

I may also sometimes chase the healer for a hug while playing a tank job while an AoE tankbuster marker is on me... :P

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Originally Posted by Niroken

We are almost at Level 100 and the content is roughly as difficult as Level 50. One hundred levels of tutorial. People don't get better unless they have a reason to.

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IDK man, CT and Euphrosyne for example aren't comparable at all.

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Originally Posted by Gariored

No they do not, most play FFXIV for the social aspect and treat this like second life.

I would love for the devs to "enforce" better playstyles but only way I can see that happening is making normal content harder which doesn't work and just promotes leeching (Which we already have now) or players just outright dropping certain content.

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I do love the first dungeon of Endwalker, the amount of times i saw it early on in the expansion, where groups just could not get past the first bosses mechanics without dying 3-4 times.

My expectations for Endwalker dropped back down to disappointed when i realized every other dungeon after that could be cleared blindfolded, playing with my feet.

The game really is dumbed down to the point where anything below Extreme (And even some extremes, the new one as a perfect example) are designed for a player base that don't want to have to 'learn'.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

Just a question that came up today.

With all the talk of Addons/Parsers, somebody today asked what my thoughts were on the average casual player actually knowing how to play their job correctly.

Immediately i said no, the average player most likely does not realize that they are holding back groups by playing badly.

This is just based on experience in Dungeons/PF, but some people are completely clueless when it comes to actually PLAYING the game..

This bought up a second question: What can the game do, to TEACH people to play properly.

Should the game teach people about Melding Gear, Rotations, Openers and other things that will help them in the Endgame?

Any thoughts?

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Yes and it starts by introducing required content that doesn't allow you remove half the abilities off your hotbar and still get a clear so smooth it could put you to sleep.

They don't for many reason:

1. They just don't give a duck, the people that visit the forum and the high end gamer are not your daily FFXIV player.
2. The rotations are not intuitive most people press what makes sense to them, the average player doesn't look up the proper rotations.
3. The 120s rotation circle is easily wrecked and average player doesn't care about it.

I've stated it in many threads before but I think that the FFXIV rotation system is one of the worst I've come across.
It's very elitist designed and boringly static.

IMO the whole rotation concept needs to be reworked for FFXIV.

I'm average (casual) player. because i have limited playtime..and there is only so much you can do..(fulltime student)
I only do dalies and pvp..and do nrm difficulity content.. which most say is super easy..ect
But...when you're mentally burned out from job/school/uni..that easy content is all you can do at the end of the day!..

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

But... I don't have a color on there... I mess around not giving a shit making ppl wonder how I didn't get hit by some things. To which I reply. "I'm a Cat. If I fits I sits" >.>

I may also sometimes chase the healer for a hug while playing a tank job while an AoE tankbuster marker is on me... :P

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Haha ok I'm about to go to sleep but I'll make a new one just for you tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

I do love the first dungeon of Endwalker, the amount of times i saw it early on in the expansion, where groups just could not get past the first bosses mechanics without dying 3-4 times.

My expectations for Endwalker dropped back down to disappointed when i realized every other dungeon after that could be cleared blindfolded, playing with my feet.

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It seems that they make the leveling dungeons and the last dungeon of the core expansion as challenging as you described there, then after that they just can't even if they wanted to because of item level.

Even when you go through older leveling dungeons, you can see how they aren't done blindfolded. You do have to actually heal enough at the end of Bardam's Mettle, the 2nd fight is a pure mechanics fight and if everyone let it all hit them they would fail and the pulls can still be rough sometimes. The last dungeon of 5.0 has a first boss fight that I have seen many wipes to, to the point I've been left soloing it as a tank or carrying them as a healer.

To be fair, the latest dungeon does give you Doom if you get hit in the second boss fight and if you are too distracted with a rotation to watch where the safe spots are, it will usually get you. The first one has some marching that can get you if you are tunneling and the last boss does an awful lot of dashing that is easy to confuse people. It's at least an improvement over the last dungeon, where the only thing remotely threatening was a Gaze that gave you Doom for being greedy. The only thing remotely threatening in the dungeon before that was if you didn't understand the lasers or tunneled on them.

No they don't. The game does not at all explain any of the nuances of GCD/OGCD and without understanding it you can maybe play healer correctly but everything else you're being carried.

No. They don’t.

What was shocking to me that even some players that wanted to do ex/savage were completely ignorant about how their jobs work. The fact that game itself does not teach this its literally impossible to know things without going to external sources.

Two biggest offenders to that were BLM and PLD.

For first one, nowhere in UI it is show just how much astral fire stacks increase fire damage (its 40/60/80%). Figuring out just how important is to maximize fire spell usage for a new player just from tooltips is not easy.

For PLD before rework I saw quite a few players not using Holy Spirit. I believe requiescat tooltip also was not intuitive, so players would not know just how much dps they were losing by not using it (If I recall it was 25% of PLD dps?).

In general these are fundamentals that need to be learned before attempting hard content:

• ABC - always be casting.
• Basic idea that raid buffs should be used when other jobs can benefit from them as well, which leads to rotations where everybody is trying to burst under buffs. My first job was NIN and since I was a noob then I used trick on first GCD...
• GCDs, oGCDs, weaving

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Simple answer:
No, no they do not. The game really needs to double down on forcing them to learn before they come and subject the rest of us to their existence.

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Please provide me with information on any other MMORPG in the world that does this. Be specific. Optional content does not count. Early tutorials do not count.

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Originally Posted by Renalt

Yikes. I'm sorry people have had a lot of issues with others. I guess I've been lucky cause there has been only ONE instance where people just bailed from continued failure and that was the Bird and Portal trial. I stayed with the group cause I knew there was a 1st timer and I wanted them to be able to clear but unfortunately I was a DPS and not a healer and the healers kept biting it.

Most of the time if we wipe...it's just the once. Rarely twice.

As SturmChrro said...it IS stupidly easy. I've been lucky to be grouped with randoms that could handle it without a single word being exchanged.

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My experience pretty much mirrors yours.

Sometimes I read the forums and Reddit and I legit wonder where people are finding these groups.

There’s no way I can possibly be that lucky. In fact I know I’m not because I always lose on minion and orchestrion rolls

Going from "expert" to savage content is like asking someone with no programming knowledge to code a hello world executable, congratulate them then order them to create a tic-tac-toe program with user interface within 6 hours.
Having only extreme trials bridging the gap is really not enough to prepare the average player.
That aside, if there is a way to cheat and not get caught, there will always be those who cheat. Specially if there is competition involved.

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

what are you going on about here?

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See there's this thing called an analogy. The analogy here was how toxic casuals are constantly smugging about how they want to play the game in a chill and relaxed way, but also throw fits every time someone brings up the mere *idea* that anyone could improve.

The point of the analogy was that toxic casuals protest WAY too much. The bratty shrieking they do over the existence of parsers, the squawking about plugins, all of this crap is indicative of someone who actually does care, quite a bit. It's not the behavior of someone who's laid-back. It's the behavior of someone who's embarrassed that someone might see them as unskilled, so they pitch a fit about it in threads all over General Discussion, every day, every week, telling us all that they're only here to have fun but REEEEEE those EVIL ELITISTS doing SAVAGE ruin everything by...BEING OVER THERE!

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

See there's this thing called an analogy. The analogy here was how toxic casuals are constantly smugging about how they want to play the game in a chill and relaxed way, but also throw fits every time someone brings up the mere *idea* that anyone could improve.

The point of the analogy was that toxic casuals protest WAY too much. The bratty shrieking they do over the existence of parsers, the squawking about plugins, all of this crap is indicative of someone who actually does care, quite a bit. It's not the behavior of someone who's laid-back. It's the behavior of someone who's embarrassed that someone might see them as unskilled, so they pitch a fit about it in threads all over General Discussion, every day, every week, telling us all that they're only here to have fun but REEEEEE those EVIL ELITISTS doing SAVAGE ruin everything by...BEING OVER THERE!

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Honestly I've still no idea what your on about other than really hating on some imagined people

It is a subjective question.

My interpretation is:
- In a dungeon (anything from Sastasha to the latest), are they AOEing on trash? Are they doing mechanics with some tolerance for the occasional mistake?
- In a trial/normal raid, are we clearing without wiping and without healers struggling to keep everyone alive because DPS keep stepping in the poop?

If a player is checking those boxes, they are fine for the majority of content in this game. I expect to see mistakes in extremes/savage. The content is harder and more complicated. It is that simple.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

The point of the analogy was that toxic casuals protest WAY too much. The bratty shrieking they do over the existence of parsers, the squawking about plugins, all of this crap is indicative of someone who actually does care, quite a bit. It's not the behavior of someone who's laid-back. It's the behavior of someone who's embarrassed that someone might see them as unskilled, so they pitch a fit about it in threads all over General Discussion, every day, every week, telling us all that they're only here to have fun but REEEEEE those EVIL ELITISTS doing SAVAGE ruin everything by...BEING OVER THERE!

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Reading your original post, I was just as confused as jamesoakes. But this actually makes sense to me. I personally think that people protesting add-ons and mods is valid. It's against the ToS. I get it. However, some (not all, but some) take it wayyyyyy too far by, for example, calling for bans on people just because they dared entertain the thought that these things might actually be helpful in some way, even if they don't actually use these things at all, and that a grey area does indeed exist.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

Just a question that came up today.

With all the talk of Addons/Parsers, somebody today asked what my thoughts were on the average casual player actually knowing how to play their job correctly.

Immediately i said no, the average player most likely does not realize that they are holding back groups by playing badly.

This is just based on experience in Dungeons/PF, but some people are completely clueless when it comes to actually PLAYING the game..

This bought up a second question: What can the game do, to TEACH people to play properly.

Should the game teach people about Melding Gear, Rotations, Openers and other things that will help them in the Endgame?

Any thoughts?

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https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6a/c4...a135e5b6a9.png

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Originally Posted by Renalt

https://i.ibb.co/6B3twyF/meh.jpg

My paint skills are elementary. However the average is green/blue IMO

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I've been lead to believe that the majority of the people on the forum are in the yellow category.

If you’re posting on this forum, or even silent readers, you’re probably “above average player” already.

The average player, and actually the vast majority, don’t even know we, or the forum, even exists here. They don’t do external research, nor are they compelled to. When they fail, they get frustrated and probably quit and do something else.

There’s no concept of maximizing rotation. They know how to heal or to tank and to get out of red shiny markers, but definitely no concept why certain skills cannot be used in certain way.

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Originally Posted by Renalt

https://i.ibb.co/6B3twyF/meh.jpg

My paint skills are elementary. However the average is green/blue IMO

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I like your paint skills but I think you’re severely underestimating the grey and reds here. Grey and reds are probably as big as the entire length of your scale.

I saw a chart for another MMO before that 60% of players play less than 1.5 hours per day.

I find it more funny that "Knows the role extremely well and most mechanics" is associated with not doing savage while "Knows the role [...] but will make mistakes on mechanics" is associated with doing savage.

And red is probably by far the most common. The average player I encounter in DF has a general idea about their role and some mechanics but that's it.

It doesn't take much to know non-ex mechanics, as game is pretty good at using consistent effects and warning markers to represetn them. As for knowing the job, its just straight up unnecessary to even try to be optimal with it sub-EX difficulty. It feels good to try and it is fun for most DPS jobs, its really just not required by the content, so players who don't dip their toes too much beyond sub-EX content just don't need to be able to push their job to the limit to succeed. So yeah, green and red on the chart kinda end up with a very blurry line between them, I'd say, to the point where separating the two at all is nigh pointless. Also, blue and yellow combined would be of length even lower than current grey relative to overall length of chart, IMO.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

You are speaking from your vast personal experience of that role, I gather?

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Who is this nobody coming for me out of nowhere acting like I'm dead weight in content?

It's kinda hard to mess up the basic 1,2,3 rotation buuuut you'd be surprised.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

But... I don't have a color on there... I mess around not giving a shit making ppl wonder how I didn't get hit by some things. To which I reply. "I'm a Cat. If I fits I sits" >.>

I may also sometimes chase the healer for a hug while playing a tank job while an AoE tankbuster marker is on me... :P

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I'm a man of my word so just for you I've made an update.

https://i.ibb.co/7SGxKGN/meh-updated.jpg

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Originally Posted by Renalt

I'm a man of my word so just for you I've made an update.

https://i.ibb.co/7SGxKGN/meh-updated.jpg

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I still look at this and compare it to max level roulettes and think more people fall into the red zone than green.

They kinda know what's going on, But don't understand their Jobs well enough to utilize all the role actions and cooldowns correctly.
Majority of casual players i've spoken too in and outside of my FC don't have Second Wind, Bloodbath and Addle/feint on their bars at all.

I would take a good 2/3rds of that green bar and turn it red.

Its noticeably different across Datacenters of course, i feel on JP servers the majority of players were well above average (but that is just a cultural thing, they have a bare competency that is expected of every player, and a personal mindset to not let other people down by playing sloppy).

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

I feel on JP servers the majority of players were well above average (but that is just a cultural thing).

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I think quite the opposite. JP average player base is way low the western average.
I mean, we received a lot of “quality of gameplay” changes making the game easier and easier and easier.
Plus we never had a proper re work on the formula within the Hardcore Endgame.
There are a lot of requests in the NA/EU/OCE forum still in every LL there is no mention about anything.
Nothing like “oh, yeah we know endgame sucks, we are trying to figure out a solution where you can gear faster and we can still milk your money”.
Or “Yeah also we know the housing system sucks, we are trying to develop a new system”…basically these are the major topic in the forum (i don’t count the SE enjoyer topics).
In the last three years nothing was mentioned about what the wester comunity is feeling on the actual state of the game.
They throw content that nobody asked (Isle sanctuary e.g.) and pretend that’s what the whole player base want.
They do rework that nobody asked on jobs and contents.

At the end of the day I just think that devs doesn’t listen what western forum has to said, maybe they compare our request if they matches theirs own but mostly all the changes are made for the crying Japan casual player base.
So this is why FF has a low average skilled player base, imho.

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Originally Posted by Jokerz_93

I think quite the opposite. JP average player base is way low the western average.
I mean, we received a lot of “quality of gameplay” changes making the game easier and easier and easier.
Plus we never had a proper re work on the formula within the Hardcore Endgame.
There are a lot of requests in the NA/EU/OCE forum still in every LL there is no mention about anything.
Nothing like “oh, yeah we know endgame sucks, we are trying to figure out a solution where you can gear faster and we can still milk your money”.
Or “Yeah also we know the housing system sucks, we are trying to develop a new system”…basically these are the major topic in the forum (i don’t count the SE enjoyer topics).
In the last three years nothing was mentioned about what the wester comunity is feeling on the actual state of the game.
They throw content that nobody asked (Isle sanctuary e.g.) and pretend that’s what the whole player base want.
They do rework that nobody asked on jobs and contents.

At the end of the day I just think that devs doesn’t listen what western forum has to said, maybe they compare our request if they matches theirs own but mostly all the changes are made for the crying Japan casual player base.
So this is why FF has a low average skilled player base, imho.

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I've played on 3 different DC's now, and JP has by far the most competent casual playerbase.

Could just be due to population size, but playing on NA its apparent that there is a large population of people that don't really care about how bad they play the game, or how it affects the gameplay of others.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

Just a question that came up today.

With all the talk of Addons/Parsers, somebody today asked what my thoughts were on the average casual player actually knowing how to play their job correctly.

Immediately i said no, the average player most likely does not realize that they are holding back groups by playing badly.

This is just based on experience in Dungeons/PF, but some people are completely clueless when it comes to actually PLAYING the game..

This bought up a second question: What can the game do, to TEACH people to play properly.

Should the game teach people about Melding Gear, Rotations, Openers and other things that will help them in the Endgame?

Any thoughts?

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Why? You're being spoonfed.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

This bought up a second question: What can the game do, to TEACH people to play properly.

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I think the game does a poor job through their tutorial system to teach anything. It is a bunch of windows that pop up when you do just about anything that become more annoying than informative after it happens 10 times in the first 5 minutes of playing the game. I think SE could definitely incorporate better use of showing players things through their U/I like grey out the screen and highlight the parts they want you to pay attention to, do more active tutorials that show you vs make you read, and completely redesign the hall of the novice to focus on teaching you absolute basics like what we have no with aoes but also adding in more "Hover mouse over the ability to see the tooltip, here is where it tells you what combo to use after this ability, go ahead and try it out on this dummy" type stuff rather than press 1 and 2 a few times, cool you got it, also here is some arbitrary NPC text that you may or may not see depending on what you have going on in the chat window.

Quote Originally Posted by Absimiliard "Simple answer: No, no they do not. The game really needs to double down on forcing them to learn before they come and subject the rest of us to their existence."

Please provide me with information on any other MMORPG in the world that does this. Be specific. Optional content does not count. Early tutorials do not count.

...

Still waiting. For all of you still insisting that the game "teach" ... answer the above. Then we can actually discuss.

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Originally Posted by Renalt

I'm a man of my word so just for you I've made an update.

https://i.ibb.co/7SGxKGN/meh-updated.jpg

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https://i.ibb.co/ypdKt0x/asdfasdfsadf22222.png

Probably should have more grey.

https://em-content.zobj.net/thumbs/1...outh_1f92d.png