Do we want another 10 years of FF14 on this engine?

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Originally Posted by Aurikai

I could care less about the engine, it's the content, you can't blame lack of PvE content and poor class design on an engine.

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Elements of each can definitely be blamed on the engine.

The opportunities of what a class's toolkit can do? Constrained by the engine.

Low speed of encounter development due to an inefficient design pipeline? Largely a consequence of the engine.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

No, i didnt, and it never has either.

its the same wheezing, bug riddled old engine in desperate need of an upgrade..then again the entire game needs a massive overhaul, not the least of which is to move to modern day gaming paradigms, losing the FOMO aspects and their current predatory models to keep you subbed through a humungous list of mandatory daily chores, getting rid of "wurld pee vee pee" and quite frankly, needs to move towards respecting players time.

That INCLUDES disposing of their useless, archaic, outdated ,worthless "faction war", which passed its use by date ten years ago.

Much more needs to be acct wide, cross faction needs to be fully implemented ACROSS THE BOARD, along with closing and merging a lot of their ghost town servers. They are bleeding players, I very much doubt their new expac will do well for long in terms of retention for the reason that in the end its "raid, pvp or do m plus, if not get out" mentality will serve to show that the devs have learned NOTHING in that last decade.
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Ignoring that absolutely none of the above has anything to do with an engine and that the 2001 engine WoW runs on still manages to be far snappier and capable of considerably more physics capacities than the likes of XIV (or even GW2, etc.)...

• The FOMO aspects have been mild as heck for the last 3 expansions. What is so unintuitive or predatory about having the whole expansion to get the achievements from challenges of said expansion? Why should those achievement rewards, too, atop the glamours and droppable mounts, be available to be to solo-run a couple of expansions later?
• The "grinds" aren't there to force people to stay subbed any more than the achievements list is, gear, or anything else. Those grind loops have been primarily catch-up access for ultracasual/returning players and ways to have people run into each other in the open world. Those are hardly horrible things.
• World PvP is entirely optional. I don't know, nor care to know, where it touched you, but you can literally turn it off at any time.
• Dragonflight very mildly encourages doing <essentially any sort of content (but fastest via open world stuff)> per week for the rep chest, and 1-4 M+ runs per week if that would exceed raid ilvl. Otherwise, it's just the weekly raid drops, same as here. (Personally, I much prefer that over the weekly tome grind. It takes almost no time per week to do, and I actually enjoy the activities involved instead of begrudging them.)
• Almost everything short of gear is account wide. Most of what little remains is likewise accelerated by progress on one's main (much like the Armory Bonus).
• The only "time gating" is the MSQ (to patches) and raid drops being limited to once-per-boss-per-week, and the weekly unlocked bonus drop (the Vault). No currency gear grind. No relic weapon grind.

There's plenty that's lacking with WoW, but what you're pointing at are issues already mostly solved and presently quite a ways ahead of, say, XIV.

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

Correct! FFXIV was built standing on the shoulder of giants.

Except, one small problem…most those games came out in a small span of time (1999-2003) long ago when the MMO genre was as new as the World Wide Web. People became entranced with the novel concept of being in a virtual world with others. Now it is 2022. Children learn how to use social media as soon as they can read and write. The MMO genre is older than most gamers these days, and some say it’s obsolete. Your argument, that we must respect the old ways, falls flat for anyone who’s younger than you are—most of whom can smoke, drink, and vote just like you can.

Are you SURE you want FFXIV to be a retirement home for those too old to learn something new? I don’t think it should be a pre-requisite for someone to have played EQ and WoW in the old days, and by extension be a “boomer”—to enjoy this game.

Someday they will replace you. Should the MMO genre be replaced as well? Or can SE make the game run better for everyone?

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Your example of the younger generation makes me laugh because frankly they're even stupider than the last. They have all this tech and they don't all know how to use it very well, nor do they really have a grasp on basic communication.

Playing the older MMOs doesn't have to be a prerequisite. One should still make an effort understand the genre and its history. It's the only long term commitment out there, comparable to any long-running TV series. It's something to get into when you're done experimenting with all these games and are looking for something to pass the time. It takes all ages, but it really is geared towards the more adult consumers. It's a worthwhile investment and a generally consistent product.

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

Someday they will replace you. Should the MMO genre be replaced as well? Or can SE make the game run better for everyone?

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That's not their responsability. Nor is that a flaw of the game. Because...

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Playing the older MMOs doesn't have to be a prerequisite. One should still make an effort understand the genre and its history.

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14 was my first ever MMO. I've since played GW2, FF11, PSO2 (the older version), SWTOR and ESO. Only SWTOR actually felt outdated, but only because of how lacklustre the initial experience felt. And there are things FF14 does better and things 14 does worse. And the engine's age isn't a proper measuring factor, because the engine is similar to Luminous, the one FF15 was made in. They brought in people involved in making Luminous to pitch in, and it was made for ARR. People often think we're still using 1.0's Crystal Tools engine; we're not. It just needed to be a bit more condensed than actual Luminous is, because it's an MMORPG and you need simplicity on certain things so you don't overload your client's machine. FF14's engine isn't old.

It's not even a generational issue. The older the MMO, the more sacrifices you're going to have to deal with due to the technology used at the time. So that implies you being aware that the game will have its limitations, but that you can still have fun with it. Newer generations aren't braindead. They can adjust.

And in terms of graphical quality, that's what Square's working on right now. They're polishing things up, dealing with their graphical quality, going to improve on their character models and textures, et cetera. In theory, you can totally design something more elaborate on WoW's engine. Question is, is that what's needed? WoW did have graphical updates before, and they still didn't change the way the game looked, only polished some models and made the aesthetics look a bit more pleasant. Because the overall feel of the game had already been established. By that logic, GW2 should look like utter crap, as it's still using just a revamped version of GW1's engine. But it doesn't, it looks fly as hell. It doesn't have the amazing graphics Square Enix makes for 14, no, but it does still look faithful to its style and concept art. Even if other games come and look ultra realistic, it doesn't stop FF14 from being a good game in its own right. It might need a revamp on some stuff, sure... But that doesn't imply reinventing it from the ground up. What this thread is asking for is colossal: the same effort you'd employ migrating 1.0 to ARR.

And when it comes to FF14 "falling behind", that's what happens to all games. But in an MMO, that works differently. Obviously you can't compare, say, the technology used in FF13 vs the one used in FF15. FF13 became obsolete soon after, but it was a single-player experience. FF14 might have an older design, but it still stands today. It might need polishing like brushing up some of its code, some of its menus and interactions, but it's doing fine regardless. Even if other games look and operate better, it doesn't mean it'll be the absolute death of FF14. By those standards, WoW should have died years before it ever dropped in popularity, as it was being outshined by other MMOs. Yet it survived due to popularity, didn't it? Meaning engine and technology aren't the things that cause MMOs to die out. At least, not anytime soon.

So rather than "rehaul the engine", it should be "polish the game". Which can be done and still keep the engine.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

FF14's engine isn't old.

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It being relatively new doesn't mean it isn't badly limiting, however.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Why? FFXI still runs on the same old PS2/DX8 era engine 20 years after it was launched. Why should FFXIV ARR be any different if it's reasonably stable?

Incidentally this game was never designed to have 'instant' combat in the first place, so if you're expecting that, you'll forever be unsatisfied I'm afraid, and that is completely unreleated to the graphics engine.

Besides, this whole arguement is pointless anyway because Yoshi revealed ages ago they actually are working on a graphical enhancement for the game. Just have patience.

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This is not the same as upgrading the engine and tbh based on the screenshots they've given of the 7.0 changes, some of the upscaled textures that modders have done are far superior. Those modders don't even get paid either lol

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Originally Posted by bothadees21

This is not the same as upgrading the engine and tbh based on the screenshots they've given of the 7.0 changes, some of the upscaled textures that modders have done are far superior. Those modders don't even get paid either lol

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Modders also don't have to pay attention to:

1. Whether what they do will break various bits and pieces of the game.
2. How their mods will work on the most-used hardware that FF14 is played on.

Modders can throw anything out because, at the end of the day, what they produce doesn't matter. If the staff on FF14 threw something out? People would have a field day with graphical glitches. They would have a field day complaining if minor systems broke. The majority of players play on sub-par hardware, so the developers need to consider those in the mix too. WOW had to have gradual upgrades over the years as people upgraded. The Sims has always struggled to get people over to the next iteration of The Sims as most players do not have computers that can run it.

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Originally Posted by Necrotica

Do we really want another 10 years in this?

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https://media.tenor.com/_GpZTRr2HSMA...-waynes-no.gif

I was kind of hoping for a new MMO......

Made by a new team.

I feel you squeezed as much out of XIV as possible. It will be dry milk at this point......

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Originally Posted by Necrotica

They say they have a 10 year plan for this game.

But the server ticks, housing limitations, animation limitations, spaghetti code, etc etc etc.

Devs will often say they can't do xyz because of limitations of the engine. They acknowledge that they can't make the game better because of it.

Do we really want another 10 years in this? Or would we rather get FFXIV-2?

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Switching the DX from 9/11 to 12 is pretty easy, but those are just the underpinnings of the "engine". The "engine" as you call it doesn't actually depend on the version of DX it is pinned to, that is a whole mess to upgrade...

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Your example of the younger generation makes me laugh because frankly they're even stupider than the last. They have all this tech and they don't all know how to use it very well, nor do they really have a grasp on basic communication.

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A shame that the FFXIV community has become intertwined with generational angst. It's futile. They will replace us. At this point, if FFXIV can't welcome those who are under 20, then just take it down and replace it with something new. I'd rather that than to waste my money on a retirement home simulator, because I really don't want to feel any older than I already am.

Once again: there is nothing you can do. They will replace us.

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Playing the older MMOs doesn't have to be a prerequisite. One should still make an effort understand the genre and its history.

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A genre isn't a person and doesn't have feelings. It's a video game. You play it to have fun. Genre isn't important, and being an MMO isn't special when everyone has internet and many games can be played with others.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

It being relatively new doesn't mean it isn't badly limiting, however.

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Yeah. It really doesn't. But that's not what was being questioned.

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

A shame that the FFXIV community has become intertwined with generational angst. It's futile. They will replace us. At this point, if FFXIV can't welcome those who are under 20, then just take it down and replace it with something new. I'd rather that than to waste my money on a retirement home simulator, because I really don't want to feel any older than I already am.

Once again: there is nothing you can do. They will replace us.

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No one's worried about that and it's a long way off.

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A genre isn't a person and doesn't have feelings. It's a video game. You play it to have fun. Genre isn't important, and being an MMO isn't special when everyone has internet and many games can be played with others.

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You should stop trying so hard with these posts.

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Originally Posted by PirateRyanG

You don't have a choice.

It is rare an active game will change its engine.

Yes. FF14 did at one point, but that was an exceptional case that cost them a ton of cash.

The only other game I can think of that did this is Rust, and it essentially received no updates for a ton of time during that process.

Minecraft did too, but it now has two versions of the game so it doesn't really count. The Minecraft switch was for financial reasons.

I think gamers don't realise that most engines we have now have been kicking around for decades (and they are just upgraded engines of what we had before). You can't just switch an engine. It takes a whopping amount of work.

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Blade and soul did it
Black desert is planning to do one and eve online has done several graphical updates and is planning to change engine in 2023 iirc
even an old ass game called martial heroes got a engine update, among others , remember these games have a very low budget compared to ffxiv

i dont see any good reason why SE wouldn't

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Originally Posted by keichirou

Blade and soul did it
Black desert is planning to do one and eve online has done several graphical updates and is planning to change engine in 2023 iirc
even an old ass game called martial heroes got a engine update, among others , remember these games have a very low budget compared to ffxiv

i dont see any good reason why SE wouldn't

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Those are engine updates. Not engine upgrades.

You are also reading rumours not actual facts (in relation to BDO)

An engine change is essentially making a fresh game. No company in their right mind is doing that, especially not square since ff14 doesn't need it. It would deliver no commercial benefit.

Upgrading the current engine? Sure. Replacing it again? Absolutely no chance.

Make a better engine port the game your self all assets are in the dat files.

Document it in jp and give it to se for free if you can do better.

There is so much that goes into a game.

I've been developing a game across 3 engines over 10 years. Finally ported everything over to UR4 and now ur5 is out of beta.

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Originally Posted by PirateRyanG

Those are engine updates. Not engine upgrades.

You are also reading rumours not actual facts (in relation to BDO)

An engine change is essentially making a fresh game. No company in their right mind is doing that, especially not square since ff14 doesn't need it. It would deliver no commercial benefit.

Upgrading the current engine? Sure. Replacing it again? Absolutely no chance.

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eve online got a whole upgrade in....2008? iirc ...and they constantly do graphics updates, the game is still popular to a certain point
is possible.

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Originally Posted by keichirou

eve online got a whole upgrade in....2008? iirc ...and they constantly do graphics updates, the game is still popular to a certain point
is possible.

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They changed their graphics engine. Not the entire game engine.

Oh my gosh its so funny how many people have no idea what it means to update a game anymore.

Like ffxi>ffxiv i would assume they'd use the current ff 16's engine with a whole new story, mechanics class system ect. if they were to continue ff's MMO brand. Or like they said they would do for Content upgrade for 7.0 and work on the graphics and backend filelogs.

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Originally Posted by Aizuh

Like ffxi>ffxiv i would assume they'd use the current ff 16's engine with a whole new story, mechanics class system ect. if they were to continue ff's MMO brand. Or like they said they would do for Content upgrade for 7.0 and work on the graphics and backend filelogs.

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FF16's engine is the same as FF14's engine.

I kinda wonder if ff17 will be an mmo, or if square's just done making these things now.

Could be interesting to see what they'd do with a blank slate. No story baggage from rushing to recover from a failed first try.

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Originally Posted by Aizuh

Like ffxi>ffxiv i would assume they'd use the current ff 16's engine with a whole new story, mechanics class system ect. if they were to continue ff's MMO brand. Or like they said they would do for Content upgrade for 7.0 and work on the graphics and backend filelogs.

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I'm pretty sure someone said XIV and XVI are running the same engine, which should be a major clue as to why you can't compare single player offline games to multiplayer online.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Could be interesting to see what they'd do with a blank slate. No story baggage from rushing to recover from a failed first try.

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If you're referring to 1.0, the main "failure" there wasn't the story, but rather the UI, graphics, gameplay aspects. The story itself was actually one of the few highlights and was used as a positive jumping-off point for ARR. The big fixes were in the gameplay department.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

If you're referring to 1.0, the main "failure" there wasn't the story, but rather the UI, graphics, gameplay aspects. The story itself was actually one of the few highlights and was used as a positive jumping-off point for ARR. The big fixes were in the gameplay department.

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And then they rushed to get ARR up and running, dropping a lot of 1.0's plot and reworking or retconning more, and ended up with a mess. There's a lot of baggage and half-addressed plot threads still dangling from it to this day.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

And then they rushed to get ARR up and running, dropping a lot of 1.0's plot and reworking or retconning more, and ended up with a mess. There's a lot of baggage and half-addressed plot threads still dangling from it to this day.

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"oh no, looks like FFXIV was a dud all along, whatever shall we do"

So whats your point? Most of the loose-ends and lore transition (the big ones at least) have been acknowledged and addressed in 2.0 and beyond.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Could be interesting to see what they'd do with a blank slate. No story baggage from rushing to recover from a failed first try.

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It sounds like that's what they're going for with 7.0 and beyond.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

It sounds like that's what they're going for with 7.0 and beyond.

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I'll be surprised if they actually go with that idea. It makes the most logical sense but something tells me they'll just continue where EW left off anyway :v

Can we get a Rhapsodies of Vanadiel (or as I like to call it, Rhapsodies of Eorzea) style of content from FFXI ,just for the new players to quickly catch up to 2.0-70 please?

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Oh my gosh its so funny how many people have no idea what it means to update a game anymore.

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More like... there's a difference between enjoying and being critical of a piece of media (both in terms of its production history and its final execution) vs enjoying a game for the entertainment value of it. And people just forgot which was which.

I feel like the thread started out as mis-blaming, and it's since devolved into criticising the engine. Which, sure, that's fine, but the mis-blaming is still there. People still assume the problems with the game come from the engine and not from the stuff built on the engine. No game ever remakes itself from the ground up to meet new technology. At best they implement better frameworks, have different grapical quality and polish up older systems, but their base remains.

You won't change how a game is designed without re-releasing it. And you'd only ever do that if your technology was absolutely obsolete (which FF14 isn't, it still very much runs on our current technology just fine) or if it died and needs a relaunch. For example, it hasn't stopped League of Legends from being a Dota clone, no matter how different it's become since its 2009 launch. I don't even think Phantasy Star Online 2 New Genesis even does that, and that one's an updated PSO2 with a separate game mode. 1.0 was on the verge of dying, though, and needed a relaunch. That's how big it is.

FF14 has flaws that could do with being properly addressed. Replacing the engine is far too drastic though.

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Originally Posted by PirateRyanG

FF16's engine is the same as FF14's engine.

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An updated version of FF14's engine, yep. Which really says a lot about an engine's capability outside one unique game as a sample, as well as the different needs between an MMO meant to also run on consoles with cross-platform compatibility vs a single-player game. Basically, if you migrated FF14 to Luminous Engine or Unreal Engine 4 just to have graphical quality on the likes of FF15 or FF7 Remake but still keep it as an MMO, your computer would beg for the sweet release of death.

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Originally Posted by Avoidy

I kinda wonder if ff17 will be an mmo, or if square's just done making these things now.

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If they ever need to, it's been said it's an option to rename FF14 to another number such as FF17 to make it seem new.

They won't unless they have to.

As long as FF14 is profitable they won't have to make another MMO. And from the looks of it, this game has such a cult following that it would take a long to make it unprofitable. I feel like the RP scene alone could keep this game alive, even if the story and combat aspects became completely unplayable.

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

They won't unless they have to.

As long as FF14 is profitable they won't have to make another MMO. And from the looks of it, this game has such a cult following that it would take a long to make it unprofitable. I feel like the RP scene alone could keep this game alive, even if the story and combat aspects became completely unplayable.

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FFXI was profitable (and remains profitable), but they made FF14.

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Originally Posted by PirateRyanG

FFXI was profitable (and remains profitable), but they made FF14.

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Waiting for the Krusty Krab 3