Yoshi-P "definitive" answer on third party tools from today's 14 hour stream

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Originally Posted by Azuri

Ah yes, by page 8 we are discussing how someone making a personal decision who to party up with for group content is the terrible boogeyman. As scheduled.

Yoshi mentally lives in a cuckoo world where everyone loves each other and every underperformer gets their personal little happy carry-pony who just smiles and drags them to victory. Real people don't work that way though.

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Really? This crap cuts both ways.

On the one hand, you might scoff at casuals and want to gatekeep content so casuals dont pollute your play. But on the other hand, you could equally say "boo hoo, SE didnt make this game for you. It was made to be an MMO thats accessible to a casual FF audience, so if you dont like it, you know where WoW is". Its been working wonderfully over there ;)

And that is part of the crap they want to avoid, crap you are an active participant in.

Also, you are more than capable of deciding who to party up with as it stands, its called your FC or forming a static.

The rules as they stand are quite simple and fair. Blanket ban, use at your own risk. If you're not using cheats or mouthing off about your parses, then they arent interested in you.


Also, on the topic of parsing specifically, for as long as FFLogs collects data from players who dont have mods installed and havent consented to their data being collected and pubished you are highly unlikely to SE even consider buckling, and will find resistance from players.

Its been raised several times in this thread and is a perfectly legitimate point of contention. Its the number one reason I'm not a fan of parsers, well beyond someone asking for my parse.

As for whitelists, they are entitled not to want to deal with all the crap that comes with it. Like, people getting upset that their fave mod isnt on the whitelist, or if a mod dev does something SE doesnt like and blacklists it; and the inevitable shitstorm that would ensue.

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Originally Posted by Tiramu

Really? This crap cuts both ways.

On the one hand, you might scoff at casuals and want to gatekeep content so casuals dont pollute your play. But on the other hand, you could equally say "boo hoo, SE didnt make this game for you. It was made to be an MMO thats accessible to a casual FF audience, so if you dont like it, you know where WoW is". Its been working wonderfully over there ;)

And that is part of the crap they want to avoid, crap you are an active participant in.

Also, you are more than capable of deciding who to party up with as it stands, its called your FC or forming a static.

The rules as they stand are quite simple and fair. Blanket ban, use at your own risk. If you're not using cheats or mouthing off about your parses, then they arent interested in you.


Also, on the topic of parsing specifically, for as long as FFLogs collects data from players who dont have mods installed and havent consented to their data being collected and pubished you are highly unlikely to SE even consider buckling, and will find resistance from players.

Its been raised several times in this thread and is a perfectly legitimate point of contention. Its the number one reason I'm not a fan of parsers, well beyond someone asking for my parse.

As for whitelists, they are entitled not to want to deal with all the crap that comes with it. Like, people getting upset that their fave mod isnt on the whitelist, or if a mod dev does something SE doesnt like and blacklists it; and the inevitable shitstorm that would ensue.

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See, no matter how much we both despise each other we will always be forced to share this game. Any game, really. For the simple reason that Yoshi (and any developer, really) likes money. Games are created to cater to wide audiences. A little bit for everyone. So we can milk all that sweet sweet cash.

This I understand entirely and don't see point arguing with. Although I do think that Yoshi's idea of trying to "marry" the two audiences is doomed to fail. We will never see eye to eye. For you, I'm a toxic elitist here to ruin your fun. For me, you are a blight on gaming industry here to casual-ise every game. There can be no compromise.

So why not let us segregate each other? We'd be happy to do so, one would think. Casuals playing with casuals and having fun. Elitists playing with elitists and also being happy. If you don't want to play with one or the other group, you don't have to. Why having a system that allows players to facilitate this segregation easily a bad thing? Two very different groups sharing the same world but rarely mixing and largely ignoring each other. Wouldn't that be wonderful?

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Originally Posted by Azuri

See, no matter how much we both despise each other we will always be forced to share this game. Any game, really. For the simple reason that Yoshi (and any developer, really) likes money. Games are created to cater to wide audiences. A little bit for everyone. So we can milk all that sweet sweet cash.

This I understand entirely and don't see point arguing with. Although I do think that Yoshi's idea of trying to "marry" the two audiences is doomed to fail. We will never see eye to eye. For you, I'm a toxic elitist here to ruin your fun. For me, you are a blight on gaming industry here to casual-ise every game. There can be no compromise.

So why not let us segregate each other? We'd be happy to do so, one would think. Casuals playing with casuals and having fun. Elitists playing with elitists and also being happy. If you don't want to play with one or the other group, you don't have to. Why having a system that allows players to facilitate this segregation easily a bad thing? Two very different groups sharing the same world but rarely mixing and largely ignoring each other. Wouldn't that be wonderful?

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Separate but equal. Why do I feel so nervous hearing somebody say something like this

So in short, everyone can use as much third party tools as they like and mod the shit out of the game SE dosnt care.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

See, no matter how much we both despise each other we will always be forced to share this game. Any game, really. For the simple reason that Yoshi (and any developer, really) likes money. Games are created to cater to wide audiences. A little bit for everyone. So we can milk all that sweet sweet cash.

This I understand entirely and don't see point arguing with. Although I do think that Yoshi's idea of trying to "marry" the two audiences is doomed to fail. We will never see eye to eye. For you, I'm a toxic elitist here to ruin your fun. For me, you are a blight on gaming industry here to casual-ise every game. There can be no compromise.

So why not let us segregate each other? We'd be happy to do so, one would think. Casuals playing with casuals and having fun. Elitists playing with elitists and also being happy. If you don't want to play with one or the other group, you don't have to. Why having a system that allows players to facilitate this segregation easily a bad thing? Two very different groups sharing the same world but rarely mixing and largely ignoring each other. Wouldn't that be wonderful?

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I dont despise you, and Im not a blight on the industry... silly boy. What a stupid thing to say.

While Im not hardcore, I wouldnt exactly call myself casual either. Like, while I dont claim to be the best player in the world, I take my jobs seriously and try to be the best I can be.

I just dont like gatekeeping and tantrums from grown ass adults over videogames. My children act like that, I tolerate it because they're children. I'd prefer not to step from 2 kids having meltdowns over videogames to adults having meltdowns over videogames. If that makes me a blight on the gaming industry then so be it.

Like I said before, you have FC's and statics to separate you, without needing to have people waving parse qualifications in peoples faces and having meltdowns over player performance.

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Originally Posted by Missbone

So in short, everyone can use as much third party tools as they like and mod the shit out of the game SE dosnt care.

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As long as you keep it in your pants. I mean uh... on the down low and don't harass people with it. Or you don't openly advertise it. Then yes. They would love it if no one used it as it's all against the ToS. They haven't moved their stance on this since it first got asked. Which is don't do it, but if you are going to then we won't know that you're doing so unless you're an idiot and being loud enough to get looked at.

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Originally Posted by Missbone

So in short, everyone can use as much third party tools as they like and mod the shit out of the game SE dosnt care.

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Why is nuance so difficult for people?

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

Why is nuance so difficult for people?

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Because people can be childish

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Originally Posted by Azuri

See, no matter how much we both despise each other we will always be forced to share this game. Any game, really. For the simple reason that Yoshi (and any developer, really) likes money. Games are created to cater to wide audiences. A little bit for everyone. So we can milk all that sweet sweet cash.

This I understand entirely and don't see point arguing with. Although I do think that Yoshi's idea of trying to "marry" the two audiences is doomed to fail. We will never see eye to eye. For you, I'm a toxic elitist here to ruin your fun. For me, you are a blight on gaming industry here to casual-ise every game. There can be no compromise.

So why not let us segregate each other? We'd be happy to do so, one would think. Casuals playing with casuals and having fun. Elitists playing with elitists and also being happy. If you don't want to play with one or the other group, you don't have to. Why having a system that allows players to facilitate this segregation easily a bad thing? Two very different groups sharing the same world but rarely mixing and largely ignoring each other. Wouldn't that be wonderful?

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That is a surprisingly self-reflective take. Nice.
That being said, if we were to allow what you say nobody would ever get into the elite club as you'd be expected to know everything immediately and be perfect which I find kinda self-defeating. Why play a game I'm already perfect in? The middle ground we have right now works well enough. I don't need that LoL BS or whatever similar game.

Also, you're completely leaving out the possibility that a casual/hardcore gamer might come around to the other's perspective. How many have started as a casual only to start raiding? How many had life happen to them and now just want to take in a little bit slower (without completely leaving the raiding scene)? The current system is a good compromise (which doesn't mean I agree with everything, like the state of healers or SE balancing jobs into the ground).

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

That is a surprisingly self-reflective take. Nice.
That being said, if we were to allow what you say nobody would ever get into the elite club as you'd be expected to know everything immediately and be perfect which I find kinda self-defeating. Why play a game I'm already perfect in? The middle ground we have right now works well enough. I don't need that LoL BS or whatever similar game.

Also, you're completely leaving out the possibility that a casual/hardcore gamer might come around to the other's perspective. How many have started as a casual only to start raiding? How many had life happen to them and now just want to take in a little bit slower (without completely leaving the raiding scene)? The current system is a good compromise (which doesn't mean I agree with everything, like the state of healers or SE balancing jobs into the ground).

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Exactly, why fix something that already works? Rather we need is to improve upon the design choice for both audiences not further alienate them

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

That is a surprisingly self-reflective take. Nice.
That being said, if we were to allow what you say nobody would ever get into the elite club as you'd be expected to know everything immediately and be perfect which I find kinda self-defeating. Why play a game I'm already perfect in? The middle ground we have right now works well enough. I don't need that LoL BS or whatever similar game.

Also, you're completely leaving out the possibility that a casual/hardcore gamer might come around to the other's perspective. How many have started as a casual only to start raiding? How many had life happen to them and now just want to take in a little bit slower (without completely leaving the raiding scene)? The current system is a good compromise (which doesn't mean I agree with everything, like the state of healers or SE balancing jobs into the ground).

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All I am saying is that the current system can and should just move from the weird gray area and be accepted as an objective reality. There should be nothing wrong with looking at someones logs and concluding that you would rather not play with them. For whatever reason. No matter how much Yoshi wants it, he shouldn't dicatate who we party with.

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Originally Posted by Thaciscokidd

Because of the casualties. If they hit one they have to hit them all. There isn't a Whitelist here. If stuff like parse addons gets hit then stuff like Gshade would also have to be hit.

There are also a good handful of accessibility mods that would have to go too. Its basically Yoshi P saying we hear you but we don't want to deal with how much collateral damage coming down on addons would create.

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I hope they stick to this approach. TERA was a very popular game when it came to mods, addons and plugins... and as soon as En Masse Entertainment tried to shut it all down, they paid for it dearly. In the meanwhile we have ZeniMax Online Studios fully supporting fan-made addons and even adding means to their game to further expand its uses.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

All I am saying is that the current system can and should just move from the weird gray area and be accepted as an objective reality. There should be nothing wrong with looking at someones logs and concluding that you would rather not play with them. For whatever reason. No matter how much Yoshi wants it, he shouldn't dicatate who we party with.

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There is nothing wrong you say but checking logs as a requirement is already wrong. Putting focus on a players damage numbers is not nor should it ever be the be all end all judgement of their skill

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

There is nothing wrong you say but checking logs as a requirement is already wrong. Putting focus on a players damage numbers is not nor should it ever be the be all end all judgement of their skill

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See, this is why we fundamentally will never agree. And why I think we should just be given the tools to build a nice "wall" between each other so we can both enjoy the game in our separate "worlds".

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Originally Posted by Azuri

All I am saying is that the current system can and should just move from the weird gray area and be accepted as an objective reality. There should be nothing wrong with looking at someones logs and concluding that you would rather not play with them. For whatever reason. No matter how much Yoshi wants it, he shouldn't dicatate who we party with.

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You can use FC's and statics for curating players. What you suggest would gatekeep party finder that locks high end content out only for the most elite players, and shuts the door on casuals, semi-casuals, those who cant invest their lives into a game like many elite raiders want, and leads to outright toxicity and grown adults acting like children.

If you want that as the standard then fine, there are lots of MMO's that are like that, and as we see from WoW the end result of that is harmful both to players and the game itself.

I mean, look at your reply to me. Because I dont like that FFLogs collects data without consent and would prefer XIV to be a game where casuals and hardcore players can find value, you assume Im some toxic casual who wants to piss all over elite raiders. Which is one hell of a jump missing this huge middleground in between.

What I see from your argument is wanting to take the whole cake for yourself and gatekeep all high end content; which is exactly what would happen if PF were to require parse results.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

See, this is why we fundamentally will never agree. And why I think we should just be given the tools to build a nice "wall" between each other so we can both enjoy the game in our separate "worlds".

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Hey remember that starting armorer questline in ARR that tackled this same exact issue where Blanstyr was being an elitist prick discouraging any novice armorers from ever picking up actual work due to lack of skill? Remember how that worked out for him? Yeah

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Originally Posted by Tiramu

You can use FC's and statics for curating players. What you suggest would gatekeep party finder that locks high end content out only for the most elite players, and shuts the door on casuals, semi-casuals, those who cant invest their lives into a game like many elite raiders want, and leads to outright toxicity and grown adults acting like children.

If you want that as the standard then fine, there are lots of MMO's that are like that, and as we see from WoW the end result of that is harmful both to players and the game itself.

What I see from your argument is wanting to take the whole cake for yourself and gatekeep all high end content; which is exactly what would happen if PF were to require parse results.

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But where would all the casual players go then? Why won't they make their own PFs to progress the fights together in a chill and fluffly atmosphere where no one ever gets angry at someone being a little slow on the uptake?

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Originally Posted by Azuri

But where would all the casual players go then? Why won't they make their own PFs to progress the fights together in a chill and fluffly atmosphere where no one ever gets angry at someone being a little slow on the uptake?

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Because they already do. The whole point is that the game doesn't want to overly encourage numbers which is why they don't show that information. If youre being super hardcore about it you're more than welcome to form your own party and have logs to do whatever you wish, it's you and your teams agreeable business over that issue. Just don't force that on everyone else because it's not necessary

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Hey remember that starting armorer questline in ARR that tackled this same exact issue where Blanstyr was being an elitist prick discouraging any novice armorers from ever picking up actual work due to lack of skill? Remember how that worked out for him? Yeah

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The fundamental flaw of your logic is that you assume that it is about new raiders vs. established ones. Alas, it is not. There are new players who will gladly join my side of this hypothetical "world". Ones that seek to improve and value performance and derive enjoyment from self improvement. And aren't happy when they are being held back by others. Same as there are long term raiders who will be on your side, raided since Creator and are happy banging their heads against a fight for 6 months because Jimmy is a bit slow on that mechanic and their grandma is just a touch late with the heals sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Because they already do. The whole point is that the game doesn't want to overly encourage numbers which is why they don't show that information. If youre being super hardcore about it you're more than welcome to form your own party and have logs to do whatever you wish, it's you and your teams agreeable business over that issue. Just don't force that on everyone else because it's not necessary

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So it is your approach that has to be forced on everyone else, then?

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Originally Posted by Azuri

But where would all the casual players go then? Why won't they make their own PFs to progress the fights together in a chill and fluffly atmosphere where no one ever gets angry at someone being a little slow on the uptake?

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They would use PF like they already do. If you want a more curated environment then you can use your FC or create a static. Whats the problem with that?

As for "chill and fluffy", why do you need to be so condescending. People dont want chill and fluffy, they dont want toxic. Some of the meltdowns I've seen people have in random PF groups, and in games like WoW, are frankly embarassing.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

So it is your approach that has to be forced on everyone else, then?

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Not even mines, it's the games approach

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Originally Posted by Tiramu

They would use PF like they already do. If you want a more curated environment then you can use your FC or create a static. Whats the problem with that?

As for "chill and fluffy", why do you need to be so condescending. People dont want chill and fluffy, they dont want toxic. Some of the meltdowns I've seen people have in random PF groups, and in games like WoW, are frankly embarassing.

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So you are saying that nothing would change and the two groups will just have separate PF listings which suit their own needs? I'm glad that we agree.

As for why am I so condescending, well...

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Originally Posted by Azuri

...no matter how much we both despise each other...

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Not even mines, it's the games approach

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That's rich. "My way is the one true way to play the game".

Sigh. You only reinforce my point that any kind of attempt to find a compromise between us is futile.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

There is nothing wrong you say but checking logs as a requirement is already wrong. Putting focus on a players damage numbers is not nor should it ever be the be all end all judgement of their skill

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it's not the end judgement of their skill. You can have orange on every fight in the game, if you mess up constantly and prevent the group from clearing, you should get kicked. We are forced to care about the damage numbers because damage is our win condition in every fight.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

That's rich. "My way is the one true way to play the game".

Sigh. You only reinforce my point that any kind of attempt to find a compromise between us is futile.

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I mean...do we have official parsing in the game? Nooo?

Then how is this method exclusively mine? Actually stop and think for a second please

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I mean...do we have official parsing in the game? Nooo?

Then how is this method exclusively mine? Actually stop and think for a second please

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Do we not have PFs that will remove you if your parses aren't sufficiently high?

Although I wouldn't be surprised that you've never heard of those...

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Originally Posted by Azuri

So you are saying that nothing would change and the two groups will just have separate PF listings which suit their own needs? I'm glad that we agree.

As for why am I so condescending, well...

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Oh pack it in with the despising each other rubbish. If you despise people for wanting different things from a videogame then thats your problem and yours alone.

Im also not saying nothing would change if logs became open. Im saying it would, it would lead to high end content being gatekeeped by the highest percentile of players and all of the crazy that comes with that. I like that XIV has a good community without people hurling abuse at each other like thats a mini game in its own right, and the unhinged dont have the rule of the roost. Like I said, many of us have teenage kids so dont want to go from meltdowns at home to meltdowns in our freetime.

Also, again, the open logging culture has wrecked WoWs endgame so its not all its cracked up to be.

Third party does a better job than devs himself on QOL sometimes.

And that's exactly the problem with parsers: all you see are numbers but not what really happened during the fight, maybe it's not Jimmy holding back.

Maybe the best of the best dd had the high numbers because they stood in every bad stuff and the low dps healer needed to heal them instead of dealing damage.

Maybe the high DPS healer just threw rocks instead of Esuna debuffs.

And don't get me started on addons like DBM: I spent weeks raiding as a pug healer in WOW and no one knew I wasn't using it. They noticed when we got to a boss I've never fought with my guild, so of course I didn't know what to do and suddenly I needed an addon instead of learning the fight?!

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Originally Posted by Azuri

Do we not have PFs that will remove you if your parses aren't sufficiently high?

Although I wouldn't be surprised that you've never heard of those...

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You do realize you're not supposed to be doing that right? That reportable abuse

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Originally Posted by Azuri

That's rich. "My way is the one true way to play the game".

Sigh. You only reinforce my point that any kind of attempt to find a compromise between us is futile.

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They are right though, SE dont want that approach to the game. Yoshis aversion to putting a parser in the game is because thats not his vision for the game. You want a hardcore MMO where you can flex and be in an exclusive club, Yoshi wants an MMO where everyone can play and enjoy the content.

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Originally Posted by Tiramu

Oh pack it in with the despising each other rubbish. If you despise people for wanting different things from a videogame then thats your problem and yours alone.

Im also not saying nothing would change if logs became open. Im saying it would, it would lead to high end content being gatekeeped by the highest percentile of players and all of the crazy that comes with that. I like that XIV has a good community without people hurling abuse at each other like thats a mini game in its own right, and the unhinged dont have the rule of the roost. Like I said, many of us have teenage kids so dont want to go from meltdowns at home to meltdowns in our freetime.

Also, again, the open logging culture has wrecked WoWs endgame so its not all its cracked up to be.

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How would a party that requires certain performance level "gatekeep" you from making your own chill party? And how would it negatively affect you if people from that other party don't join yours? Straight answers, please.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

You do realize you're not supposed to be doing that right? That reportable abuse

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You realize you are not entitled to join a group of people who for any possible reason do not want to play with you?

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Originally Posted by Tiramu

Oh pack it in with the despising each other rubbish. If you despise people for wanting different things from a videogame then thats your problem and yours alone.

Im also not saying nothing would change if logs became open. Im saying it would, it would lead to high end content being gatekeeped by the highest percentile of players and all of the crazy that comes with that. I like that XIV has a good community without people hurling abuse at each other like thats a mini game in its own right, and the unhinged dont have the rule of the roost. Like I said, many of us have teenage kids so dont want to go from meltdowns at home to meltdowns in our freetime.

Also, again, the open logging culture has wrecked WoWs endgame so its not all its cracked up to be.

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It's 100% healthy to form groups around similar skill levels and similar expectation levels. Everything else will lead to tension in the goup and sooner or later for the group to break up. The longer you force people together that dont belong together, the more frustration you are creating on both sides.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

How would a party that requires certain performance level "gatekeep" you from making your own chill party? And how would it negatively affect you if people from that other party don't join yours? Straight answers, please.

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You have seen other MMO's? WoW perhaps?

Your answer is there. We already know because thats precisely what happens in other MMO's.

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Originally Posted by Tiramu

You have seen other MMO's? WoW perhaps?

Your answer is there. We already know because thats precisely what happens in other MMO's.

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Let's imagine (we don't even have to imagine) that I have never ever played WoW and have zero idea how it works. Are you capable of giving me a direct answer to the question or not?

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Originally Posted by Saraide

It's 100% healthy to form groups around similar skill levels and similar expectation levels. Everything else will lead to tension in the goup and sooner or later for the group to break up. The longer you force people together that dont belong together, the more frustration you are creating on both sides.

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The PF allows you to recruit randoms and gives casual and semi-casual players a point of access into high end content. Sometimes you get great groups, sometimes mayhem.

If you want to curate your groups in a more efficient manner, like similar skill level groups, then PF is a horrible way to do it in the first place. Your FC or forming a static is always going to be more efficient. So you're arguing for a solution to a feature that isnt broken to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

Let's imagine (we don't even have to imagine) that I have never ever played WoW and have zero idea how it works. Are you capable of giving me a direct answer to the question or not?

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It was a straight answer, you're just being dishonest now. We know this is what would happen because past precident has demonstrated that this is what happens in other MMO's that allow open parsing.

Unless you're suggesting that XIV inherantly poops unicorns and rainbows so is immune to the toxic MMO culture that has fucked other MMO's over, then thats what would happen.

If you dont know about WoW, 5 minutes cringing on YouTube will be more than enough.

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Originally Posted by Tiramu

The PF allows you to recruit randoms and gives casual and semi-casual players a point of access into high end content. Sometimes you get great groups, sometimes mayhem.

If you want to curate your groups in a more efficient manner, like similar skill level groups, then PF is a horrible way to do it in the first place. Your FC or forming a static is always going to be more efficient. So you're arguing for a solution to a feature that isnt broken to begin with.

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It's working right now because that curation is already happening. You are trying to scare us of the current system. A system you yourself think isnt broken to begin with.