Ardbert's Party vs the Scions Analysis

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Originally Posted by SannaR

So Cid jumping off an airship hovering above a mountain top that grew a hole to technically the middle of the planet. Blowing himself up and somehow surviving the rest of the falls and explosion. Or Yang who not only survived a ship wreck but also an explosion at the top of a giant tower. Later getting whacked with a frying pan while already unconscious don't demand more of a suspension of disbelief than things that have happened in XIV? Or that Palom and Parom's Elder somehow found something to cure them of having petrified themselves? Or that in order to actually do damage to the final boss one has to throw a spoon at them?

Ultama Thule we knew even before going there that we were carrying a maguffin. Even told to use it if we needed to. Only to later get told to not use it because it wasn't safe yet to do so.

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Allow me to further clarify my post. It is easier to suspend one's disbelief in FFIV given the handling of the characters' (apparent) demises because they were not undone with the same sort of haste that happens in FFXIV. The focus here is on how impactful these events were given the fact that they appeared permanent. This is not occurring in FFXIV.

Relying on maguffins and gizmos at this stage of the story is not the sort of quality writing I expect. More care and attention to be given to strong characterization and meaningful choices instead.

I dunno. The fact that they "appeared permanent" actually tends to make them more of a fakeout. As much as I hated the constant "Oh boo! 'X Scion' sacrificed themselves!" in Ultima Thule, it actually was pretty ridiculous when Cid, Yang, Palom and Porom just turn out to be fine later down the line.

And there's nothing wrong with "MacGuffins" when they're foreshadowed. And in this case, it was more like a Chekhov's Gun; you knew it was going to come into play somehow, but you were just waiting for when the game decided to pull the trigger.

And the game's finale had a controversial reception because of its use.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

And the game's finale had a controversial reception because of its use.

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That's a reach. Most of game's controversy had nothing to do with the Chekhov's Gun. The problem with the fake-out deaths is that they shouldn't have even been dramatic in the first place. If the Scions said, "Don't worry, we're going to take one for the team for now, but use Azem's magic when it's safe", there would have been no problem.

The problem was that they kept trying to tease that it would be permanent, which wouldn't have been an issue if they just didn't dramatize it.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

The problem with the fake-out deaths is that they shouldn't have even been dramatic in the first place. If the Scions said, "Don't worry, we're going to take one for the team for now, but use Azem's magic when it's safe", there would have been no problem.

The problem was that they kept trying to tease that it would be permanent, which wouldn't have been an issue if they just didn't dramatize it.

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On the one hand, yes it was clear to the audience that these sacrifices could not be permanent. They were too abrupt, too many, the key to bringing them back was already presented to us. Narratively we can anticipate it.

At the same time, from the characters' perspective, their deaths absolutely could be permanent. They are putting their lives in a precarious position that relies on the WoL succeeding and reaching a not-yet-clear point where the others can be revived. If that doesn't work out, then this really could be their last farewell, even as they place their hope in your success.

So for me at least, even though I trusted from the start that this was an "everyone sacrifices and then revives" plot (if you look up the "first impressions of EW" thread I think I commented on it at the time), appreciating the characters' feelings is also a very big part of it. I knew it probably had to end with the revival, but still that middle part was sad and beautiful, imagining – and seeing in the dialogue – how heavy each sacrifice must weigh on the survivors as they press onwards, uncertain of their destination and how much more will be asked of them before they can reach it.

So no, I don't think it would have been better for the plot for it to be played lightly.

I think some fake-out deaths in other parts of the story were overplayed before being casually reversed, but not this time.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

On the one hand, yes it was clear to the audience that these sacrifices could not be permanent. They were too abrupt, too many, the key to bringing them back was already presented to us. Narratively we can anticipate it.

At the same time, from the characters' perspective, their deaths absolutely could be permanent. They are putting their lives in a precarious position that relies on the WoL succeeding and reaching a not-yet-clear point where the others can be revived. If that doesn't work out, then this really could be their last farewell, even as they place their hope in your success.

So for me at least, even though I trusted from the start that this was an "everyone sacrifices and then revives" plot (if you look up the "first impressions of EW" thread I think I commented on it at the time), appreciating the characters' feelings is also a very big part of it. I knew it probably had to end with the revival, but still that middle part was sad and beautiful, imagining – and seeing in the dialogue – how heavy each sacrifice must weigh on the survivors as they press onwards, uncertain of their destination and how much more will be asked of them before they can reach it.

So no, I don't think it would have been better for the plot for it to be played lightly.

I think some fake-out deaths in other parts of the story were overplayed before being casually reversed, but not this time.

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Agree to disagree, then. Sure, from the POV's perspective, their "deaths" could have been permanent despite the means of their revival being on hand, but that doesn't really change anything from a narrative standpoint. It reminds me of Dragon Ball Z, which kept trying to reintroduce the possibility of permanent death for the main cast, despite the fact that almost every single arc introduced a new means of resurrection, whether it was by Earth Dragon Balls, Namek Dragon Balls, or gods just deciding "Okay, you're not dead anymore". It doesn't matter if the characters are aware that they might not come back -- there's no tension for the audience.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It's worth noting that FFIV was released before some of us were even born. Personally I'm inclined to look to the more 'recent' entries in the franchise. Besides, I'm not sure how the existence of FFIV negates the many other Final Fantasy titles with dire consequences for the world as a whole and the members of the main cast.

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Spoilers for Ff15 - 10:

15 had major character deaths but is arguably the best example of killing characters too soon, 13 and it’s sequels are messy and repeatedly undermine their own emotional moments, 12 has the entire cast show up alive at the end (including several fake out deaths) and 10 did have some great character death moments that were undone almost immediately afterward.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Though I imagine, as always, those who consider the Scions to be their comfort characters will insist on shielding them from any and all meaningful stakes whilst being perfectly fine with everything else in the setting being tormented and eliminated in their stead.

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Strawman.

Edit: I should expand on this. One doesn’t need to think that the Scions should be shielded from “any and all meaningful stakes” to think that their status doesn’t undermine the games themes and writing.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

FFIV is the game where a father sacrificed his life in the name of revenge in casting Meteor. FFIV is where the main character was directly responsible for the death of another main character's parent. FFIV also did not annul the sacrifices made by the main cast members in as little time as this game did, with some only being able to be brought back into action in the penultimate moments of the game. It did not demand nearly as much in the way of suspension of disbelief as Endwalker did, with some characters like Rydia only making an appearance in a shocking manner aged up to adulthood in the middle of a battle that was practically lost after her fate was left unknown. Unless one has prior knowledge of the game, it is much harder to predict the fates of these characters or if/when they will return.

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Spoilers for FFIV:

1. Tellah has an incredibly limited role that amounts to jumping in and out of the party while yelling to everyone how he’ll kill the villain or die trying.
2. The death was accidental, almost immediately forgiven and never mentioned again. You could remove it and it would change nothing.
3. I think listing the characters in IV with a death fake out would be helpful. Edward, Yang, Palom and Poroms, Cid, Rydia. That leaves Cecil, the main character, Rosa, who is kidnapped or poisoned and left incapacitated for large sections of the game, Tellah, who appears and disappears multiple times, and Edge/Fusoya, who only appear at the the end. IV was a lot. By the time you get half way, for pretty much every death you expect them to return.
4. Several of these deaths are undone immediately. You find Cid in the Dwarven Kingdom shortly after his sacrifice and you find Edward right after leaving Mysidia.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

On the one hand, yes it was clear to the audience that these sacrifices could not be permanent. They were too abrupt, too many, the key to bringing them back was already presented to us. Narratively we can anticipate it.

At the same time, from the characters' perspective, their deaths absolutely could be permanent. They are putting their lives in a precarious position that relies on the WoL succeeding and reaching a not-yet-clear point where the others can be revived. If that doesn't work out, then this really could be their last farewell, even as they place their hope in your success.

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I think this is something that players like to forget. Yes for us it was pretty clear that they wont just kill of the whole team. (Even more when you knew that another dungeon was going to happen where we would need at least three others for that)

But for these characters it was not. They bascially did that to save the world while not knowing if they will ever be back. We know from Thancred that it was not easy holding onto his own self. They also had to count on us going on and finding a way forward while also believing that we cant use our crystal to call them back because it was them giving Ultima Thule form. They got lucky that Emet and Hythlo were able to summon that field of flowers (which they were only able to do because we understood its importance towards Meteion), thus showing her that despair was not absolute in this place.

Its the same with killed characters. I just shake my head when someone mentions how characters should be over it because it has been x years for us...forgetting that we are again an outsider looking into that universe. And that grief is not something everyone can get over fast. Especially if the character feels like they are the reason why the other person died. For me it makes the story way more realistic to have the character not forget the people that they lost. And that everyone feels it in their own way.

But I guess according to some here Endwalker is a story for children and teenagers because adults can only enjoy it when the game murders most of the main casts...all the other horrible events that were happening are childsplay because they are just about NPCs...Yet I saw enough streamers that had kids be absolutely destroyed by the Matsya and baby scenes because they understood the horrors behind that. Because they could imagine their kids being in that situation.

There were many such situations happening in this expansion. But seemingly they dont count when its not the main cast...

I was so excited that the scions finally disbanded and it sounded like we'd finally get some adventures with new characters who don't just send us out on errands for their whims. Y'know make actual adventuring friends like Ardbert did with his adventuring crew. But nope they couldn't even last a single patch lmao

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Originally Posted by hydralus

I was so excited that the scions finally disbanded and it sounded like we'd finally get some adventures with new characters who don't just send us out on errands for their whims. Y'know make actual adventuring friends like Ardbert did with his adventuring crew. But nope they couldn't even last a single patch lmao

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And how would you want that to happen? If you were to work with what we were given but switch the Estinien buys the map and we don't go and collect the other bit? Or would you throw everything in the trash and not even have the Tataru sending us to Raz-at-Han to gather information on an interesting story? Also don't say at a random bar as I'm fairly certain that the last time the WoL went to a bar where we weren't searching for a friend or the person we were meeting at one wasn't already there was when we got handed a drugged mug of ale. Remember the Wol also has just started to re-trust eating and drinking food. I'm so glad we didn't eat what Fandaniel placed before us. Not that I think Zenos would drug us or that Fandaniel would risk drugging Zenos. I do however wouldn't put it past Fandaniel drugging us and going oppsie idk how that happened.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

And how would you want that to happen? If you were to work with what we were given but switch the Estinien buys the map and we don't go and collect the other bit? Or would you throw everything in the trash and not even have the Tataru sending us to Raz-at-Han to gather information on an interesting story? Also don't say at a random bar as I'm fairly certain that the last time the WoL went to a bar where we weren't searching for a friend or the person we were meeting at one wasn't already there was when we got handed a drugged mug of ale. Remember the Wol also has just started to re-trust eating and drinking food. I'm so glad we didn't eat what Fandaniel placed before us. Not that I think Zenos would drug us or that Fandaniel would risk drugging Zenos. I do however wouldn't put it past Fandaniel drugging us and going oppsie idk how that happened.

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It's called taking one or two fan favorites and slowly introducing new characters into the cast through the .x patches. Hell, nothing is saying that you can't have a "With special guest _____ of the former Scions!" every patch since they can be considered the wiser of the cast since the player has seen them grow as characters (lol) while the new characters can be considered the reason why you narratively have to retell some things for newer players. But i'm not writing the MSQ or work for SE so there is not much point to spending days arguing on "if they did X then Y would be better!".

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Originally Posted by SannaR

And how would you want that to happen? If you were to work with what we were given but switch the Estinien buys the map and we don't go and collect the other bit? Or would you throw everything in the trash and not even have the Tataru sending us to Raz-at-Han to gather information on an interesting story? Also don't say at a random bar as I'm fairly certain that the last time the WoL went to a bar where we weren't searching for a friend or the person we were meeting at one wasn't already there was when we got handed a drugged mug of ale. Remember the Wol also has just started to re-trust eating and drinking food. I'm so glad we didn't eat what Fandaniel placed before us. Not that I think Zenos would drug us or that Fandaniel would risk drugging Zenos. I do however wouldn't put it past Fandaniel drugging us and going oppsie idk how that happened.

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You do know that introducing new party members doesn't need to be all that complicated, and I'm not even going to touch on what you've brought up about the WoL having to relearn to trust in the food and drink others provide to him. The easiest scenario really is for the WoL to just go to a bar and mingle with others who are pursuing a mark of some kind.

Games like FFVI have us recruiting Shadow from a bar in some opportunities. In FFIX you meet Freya at the bar in Lindblum. Various Tactics game make use of taverns for the recruitment of mercenaries and other party members. This isn't a foreign concept that needs a lengthy argument against it. They had the chance to do something better but instead all we got in 6.1 was the same tired old cast all over again.

They did not follow through with their teasing of new characters and the game will not be better off if something isn't done to remedy the situation with the scions' writing.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

And how would you want that to happen? If you were to work with what we were given but switch the Estinien buys the map and we don't go and collect the other bit? Or would you throw everything in the trash and not even have the Tataru sending us to Raz-at-Han to gather information on an interesting story? Also don't say at a random bar as I'm fairly certain that the last time the WoL went to a bar where we weren't searching for a friend or the person we were meeting at one wasn't already there was when we got handed a drugged mug of ale. Remember the Wol also has just started to re-trust eating and drinking food. I'm so glad we didn't eat what Fandaniel placed before us. Not that I think Zenos would drug us or that Fandaniel would risk drugging Zenos. I do however wouldn't put it past Fandaniel drugging us and going oppsie idk how that happened.

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Well the first thing to do to get away from the scions is to not go right back to them the moment you have a chance. They could have had the exact same storyline except instead of the scions showing up, you could have other characters introduce themselves. A warrior wanting to help their village, a dickish rogue who overheard 'treasure' who winds up helping the group for a cut of the loot, etc etc. Not sure what's so hard about all that.

Personally I'd prefer of the main character had things they actually wanted. Maybe the WoL needs some fertilizer for their farm and heads to the nearest village for some chocobo-shite. On the way they hear a trader in distress and <new character> trying to fend off a bunch of bandits. They promise all the manure they can carry if the WoL will just help them with the bandit bullies.

Perhaps it's a bit lofty after saving the known universe but it's not my fault that's where they went with their story. I was all for returning to basic adventuring after such a grandiose overarching story but here they are planning to dimension hop.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Another good thing about FFIV is that the main character was forced to atone for supporting a misguided cause. I think it would be pretty interesting to see the protagonists in this game go through such an ordeal - though the most obvious route to having that play out was, unfortunately, deliberately 'subverted' during Endwalker.

Self proclaimed heroes who somehow always end up on the winning side don't really resonate much with me.

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This is a primary reason I came to no longer like the Scions. No consequences for them has been an issue since SB, but I felt like EW shone a spotlight upon all of their flaws from their homogeneity, to their redundancy, to their immortality. Add in the blatant hypocrisy in terms of their values, the lack of reflection upon it, how they're supposedly the poster children for overcoming suffering and despair when they've led the most privileged lives of most of the characters we've encountered (with only a couple of exceptions), and I don't see what purpose they serve. They're just comfort characters who are always right and never lose, that's not interesting or compelling to me and, worse, it's extremely off-putting now after how ethically questionable EW was.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

This is a primary reason I came to no longer like the Scions. No consequences for them has been an issue since SB, but I felt like EW shone a spotlight upon all of their flaws from their homogeneity, to their redundancy, to their immortality. Add in the blatant hypocrisy in terms of their values, the lack of reflection upon it, how they're supposedly the poster children for overcoming suffering and despair when they've led the most privileged lives of most of the characters we've encountered (with only a couple of exceptions), and I don't see what purpose they serve. They're just comfort characters who are always right and never lose, that's not interesting or compelling to me and, worse, it's extremely off-putting now after how ethically questionable EW was.

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Pray tell, how the Scions are being blatant hypocrites in their values in EW. Are we even playing the same game here

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Pray tell, how the Scions are being blatant hypocrites in their values in EW. Are we even playing the same game here

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The story of Endwalker imparted the lesson that suffering is the key to resilience and that no matter the strife you have to move on. However, the Scions don't go through that much strife over the course of the MSQ - especially when compared to parties like Ardbert's. They constantly have the consequences of their actions handwaved away with increasing speed and this is compromising the impact of the message.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

The story of Endwalker imparted the lesson that suffering is the key to resilience and that no matter the strife you have to move on. However, the Scions don't go through that much strife over the course of the MSQ - especially when compared to parties like Ardbert's. They constantly have the consequences of their actions handwaved away with increasing speed and this is compromising the impact of the message.

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To repeat some of what I said before:

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

I can feel the same sympathy for the Scions, who try to help people in need, as a social or medical worker. People IRL can and do develop PTSD and other psychological traumas from being exposed to suffering, underprivileged and dying people. Even if those people themselves come from wealthy or privileged lifestyles and get to go home to warm meals, a loving family, and a comfortable bed, I would find it disrespectful and diminishing to say that the pain they feel from that secondhand exposure means nothing. A nurse that watches her patient slowly die in front of her with no way to stop it, in my opinion, doesn't get to be talked-down-to about suffering, no matter how big her bank account is. That's to say nothing of the fact that the Scions do put their lives at risk on an almost constant basis -- it's easy to forget because this is fiction and all, but near-death experiences aren't exactly something a human being can experience even once in a lifetime and just walk away from unaffected.

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While it appears that we both agree on the argument of "X character didn't suffer enough" is that this is fundamentally a stupid way to justify a heroic character's motives. But where we appear to differ here is that whilemy argument is, "it doesn't matter how much you suffered, any amount is enough", your argument appears to be "therefore, the Scions should have suffered a lot more". Clearly, I disagree with the latter standpoint, because I think the argument of "hasn't suffered enough" is stupid in and of itself, and thus it doesn't matter how much more suffering you add to any specific character(s) to facilitate that narrative. The problem with Suffering Olympics is that there's always a way to make something worse. If someone watched their family die, someone else could have watched their family be tortured to death. If someone is starving, someone else can be starving AND have leprosy. If someone has a combination of all the above, someone else can have all of the above, AND have one arm, one leg, one eye and dementia.

There's no end to that rabbit hole once you start going down it.

Your post still does nothing to address the fact that stories where not much is happening or where you can easily predict that everything will be fine with these characters isn't exactly masterful work. After Heavensward and Shadowbringers I expect better. As it stands now the main story of FFXIV is the least interesting feature I'm looking forward to with only the promise of endgame content to keep me mildly entertained until the major releases of late 2022 and 2023 arrive.

This should not be happening for someone who was as invested in the main story as I was. When you manage to turn the same people who would've at one point praised this game's story into people who recommend others avoid FFXIV on the basis of the story not being worthwhile, it is indicative of a major problem.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Your post still does nothing to address the fact that stories where not much is happening or where you can easily predict that everything will be fine with these characters isn't exactly masterful work. After Heavensward and Shadowbringers I expect better. As it stands now the main story of FFXIV is the least interesting feature I'm looking forward to with only the promise of endgame content to keep me mildly entertained until the major releases of late 2022 and 2023 arrive.

This should not be happening for someone who was as invested in the main story as I was.

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That's a problem that's so specific that I don't even think it counts as subjective. Every story has tropes, which inherently make the story predictable to some degree. Even subverting certain tropes can be predictable, since the subversions or fakeouts are usually just different tropes. Being "predictable" is not inherently a problem for an entertaining work of fiction. The Lord of the Rings has one of the most predictable plots ever, and it's a masterpiece of literature.

But even with that said, I have severe doubts that Endwalker was a predictable as claimed. I'm sure there are some people who figured out specific plot points (for instance, that the heroes would win), but probably not the how or why. Claiming something was "predictable" is one of those things that people can easily fool themselves into thinking in retrospect.

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

It's called taking one or two fan favorites and slowly introducing new characters into the cast through the .x patches. Hell, nothing is saying that you can't have a "With special guest _____ of the former Scions!" every patch since they can be considered the wiser of the cast since the player has seen them grow as characters (lol) while the new characters can be considered the reason why you narratively have to retell some things for newer players. But i'm not writing the MSQ or work for SE so there is not much point to spending days arguing on "if they did X then Y would be better!".

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But slowly working in new people while bringing along one or two fan favorites or having a Scion of the week isn't what those who fully expected the official non redacted release of the Scions have split up to mean completely fresh start want. They wanted a completely fresh start to have gone and bench the whole team forever. Better yet that they died at some point before 6.1.

They for whatever reasons don't understand or care that the official disbanding is similar to what the Citadel Council puts out as to what attacked the Citadel at the end of ME1 as the public and thus official response was that it was done by Geth. Where the unofficial and redacted story is that it was the Reapers even if the Council still doesn't fully believe that there was more than just Sovereign.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

You do know that introducing new party members doesn't need to be all that complicated, and I'm not even going to touch on what you've brought up about the WoL having to relearn to trust in the food and drink others provide to him. The easiest scenario really is for the WoL to just go to a bar and mingle with others who are pursuing a mark of some kind.

Games like FFVI have us recruiting Shadow from a bar in some opportunities. In FFIX you meet Freya at the bar in Lindblum. Various Tactics game make use of taverns for the recruitment of mercenaries and other party members. This isn't a foreign concept that needs a lengthy argument against it. They had the chance to do something better but instead all we got in 6.1 was the same tired old cast all over again.

They did not follow through with their teasing of new characters and the game will not be better off if something isn't done to remedy the situation with the scions' writing.

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I bring up the food cause when's the last time you went to a bar and didn't order food and or drink? That the last time the Wol went to one where we weren't asking a "Have you seen this boy?" ala T-1000 or meeting someone it didn't go so well due to having been served a drugged mug of ale.


The Wol also has a lousy track record of meeting and working with people we can trust. Look at the Crystal Braves where the majority were people who would have gladly served us up on a silver platter if it ment they'd get something of value to them for it. I doubt the WoL would have trusted Unhikalhi if Urianger hadn't told us just because Elidibus had been linked to the boy that we shouldn't give him a chance. When was the last time the WoL was introduced to someone by someone we didn't already know beforehand? Probably Estinien when Aymeric introduces him to us if you hadn't already done the DRG storyline yet. The guy at the start of ShB doesn't count as he doesn't come along with us and we just want to get our bearings before heading off into the direction of civilization.

The party only recruits Shadow in a bar due to being told we could find someone who could help us at one.

I agree that it wouldn't have to be complicated, but you can't ignore that the WoL wouldn't be at least somewhat leary of people. At least the Wol hasn't started to pick up the habit of being knocked unconscious by three small children like the player character in XI does.

This still doesn't excuse the way in which 6.1 went about things or why so little has been done with the Scions by this point in the story. They need to re-examine and think about what exactly they want to do with these characters and expedite the addition of new party members if nothing of substance will occur with the current cast. Magical girl transformation sequences do not constitute meaningful substance. We deserve better than this.

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Originally Posted by hydralus

Well the first thing to do to get away from the scions is to not go right back to them the moment you have a chance. They could have had the exact same storyline except instead of the scions showing up, you could have other characters introduce themselves. A warrior wanting to help their village, a dickish rogue who overheard 'treasure' who winds up helping the group for a cut of the loot, etc etc. Not sure what's so hard about all that.

Personally I'd prefer of the main character had things they actually wanted. Maybe the WoL needs some fertilizer for their farm and heads to the nearest village for some chocobo-shite. On the way they hear a trader in distress and <new character> trying to fend off a bunch of bandits. They promise all the manure they can carry if the WoL will just help them with the bandit bullies.

Perhaps it's a bit lofty after saving the known universe but it's not my fault that's where they went with their story. I was all for returning to basic adventuring after such a grandiose overarching story but here they are planning to dimension hop.

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For me 6.1 was fine with how we interacted with the Scions. We got to keep our promise to G'Raha about taking him in an adventure at the first opportunity. We end up getting most of them off the open world map by the end of it and have them be busy with things. Heck we didn't even touch the twins. Now the only Scion that kind of felt hamfistrd in was Urianger. Which tends to be more of a writing problem. As when he's not exposition dumping he's showing up out of nowhere and handing us something that we need or will end up using soon.

Right now the devs have four Scions off to the side doing things two we know we will be revisiting at some point in 6.2 which I'm sure will just set up the trial storyline. G'Raha and Krile are fenced off in the Myths storyline. We haven't touched base with the twins and Julius in Garlemald. Urianger is busy delivering his report to the Loloprits. Not sure how long that would take. Then there's Thancred who I swear is another set up for something else we can't connect to as all we know is he couldn't track down an old mentor of his.

All the meanwhile we gained Deryk, and Snoegeim who if Deryk doesn't end up being one of the twelve are two new people they can bring into other things. We're already bringing in Vrtra for the void storyline. When we get back to Garlemald I'd be shocked if we didn't drag Julius if not Maxima along for part of it. I also doubt we're done with Lorens.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

This still doesn't excuse the way in which 6.1 went about things or why so little has been done with the Scions by this point in the story. They need to re-examine and think about what exactly they want to do with these characters and expedite the addition of new party members if nothing of substance will occur with the current cast. Magical girl transformation sequences do not constitute meaningful substance. We deserve better than this.

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We are just getting started with Post EW Story.
So little has been done, because we are literally just getting started. Dont know what you are expecting this early.

New party members. Local-regional stakes. No world hopping or anything to do with the other shards. That's literally all I wanted but it didn't happen in favor of bringing back the Scions with no new additions and putting the Void in the spotlight.

No more Sharlayans please. Or people adopted by Sharlayans. Or people educated at Sharlayan schools.

Sink that boring city into the ocean and give us a more interesting culture to interact with.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

New party members. Local-regional stakes. No world hopping or anything to do with the other shards. That's literally all I wanted but it didn't happen in favor of bringing back the Scions with no new additions and putting the Void in the spotlight.

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We, just, got, started.
Most, if not all if that can still easily happen later down the line.
At least let the story actually get started 1st before you start hating on it, we are still in the beginning stages

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

The story of Endwalker imparted the lesson that suffering is the key to resilience and that no matter the strife you have to move on. However, the Scions don't go through that much strife over the course of the MSQ - especially when compared to parties like Ardbert's. They constantly have the consequences of their actions handwaved away with increasing speed and this is compromising the impact of the message.

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They dont go through much strife over the story? Alright lets jot what we got eh?

The twins- lost their grandfather, years of dealing with a stubborn father that practically broke the family, Alphinaud having put into his place majorly with the failure of the Crystal Braves, Alisaie who worked her ass off helping the infected people in Ahm Araeng, dealing with the loss of friends. They basically put themselves a lot on their shoulders for the sake of helping others, and they both constantly had to deal with the dangers, trials and tribulations alongside with us.

Thancred- Lost Minfillia, who was like a daughter to him, had to deal with having his aether severely weakened but still pushed keeping up with the group, having to both take care and deal with Ryne whom gave him such a confliction of emotions, almost died fighting Ranjiit.

Urianger - Lost Moenbryda which still affected him all the way up to EW, kinda like the twins he kept himself burdened with trying to do what he felt was right even if it meant going behind the Scions back.

Yda/Lyse - Loss of Papalymo, her sis, and her lost identity with trying to help and reconnect with the people of Ala Mhigo

Y'shtola - Lost her eyesight (which to be fair wasnt a complete loss since she looks fine with just seeing aether, and its not really a big deal ) but she always kept putting herself in harm's way to protect others, as we've seen how much we memed in her "dying" so much in this story lol.

The hell are you even getting at of them not "facing the consequences of their actions?" Nobody cares if you dislike or hate characters in this game, but at least come up with more grounded reasons rather than these vague bs takes. Or dont really, you can also just be honest and say "I just dont care for them" which you HAVE, but you're also pretending like there's tangible reasons for them being "bad characters". Own up to your opinions.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

We, just, got, started.
Most, if not all if that can still easily happen later down the line.
At least let the story actually get started 1st before you start hating on it, we are still in the beginning stages

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So? I should not have to wait even longer for the basic expectations I had for that patch. Endwalker was marketed as the conclusion of Season 1's storyline, so naturally I expected 6.1 to deal with new things and characters, not old ones. Opening Season 2 with us going into the Void isn't what I or many others wanted. The natural progression from Endwalker would've been a transition into a self-contained regional conflict similar in scale to Heavensward with a new party. Not this. This isn't a good beginning for what was supposed to be a fresh new start.

Either they should have made their intentions more clear prior to 6.1's release or followed through with the things they said.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

They dont go through much strife over the story? Alright lets jot what we got eh?

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I have already responded to this here:

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

At any rate, given the themes presented in Endwalker that went on to promote the suffering of mankind as necessary and critical for one to grow resilient – this theme falls flat when the party is largely from a privileged background and have suffered little in comparison to other characters, especially when compared to Ardbert’s party. The sole exception to this would be Estinien, being both a victim and participant of the Dragonsong War with his earlier years briefly described here. Our other remaining party members have either had their moment of loss so many years ago that it no loner resonates with long-term players (the twins and their grandfather, Urianger and Moenbryda), have been associated with widely disliked characters (Minfilia), or have had their sacrifices over the course of the game invalidated or have no bearing on the plot (Y’shtola’s blindness and fakeouts, G’raha Tia’s survival).

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

So? I should not have to wait even longer for the basic expectations I had for that patch. Endwalker was marketed as the conclusion of Season 1's storyline, so naturally I expected 6.1 to deal with new things and characters, not old ones. Opening Season 2 with us going into the Void isn't what I or many others wanted. The natural progression from Endwalker would've been a transition into a self-contained regional conflict similar in scale to Heavensward with a new party. Not this. This isn't a good beginning for what was supposed to be a fresh new start.

Either they should have made their intentions more clear prior to 6.1's release or followed through with the things they said.

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What did they not follow through with again, what "intentions" did they mention?
The Disband? You know that still happened right? They arn't operating as The Scions of the Seventh Dawn.
Endwalker was the conclusion of the Hydalyn X Zodiark Saga; which indeed concluded. So far I think they did exactly what they said they would do.

I dont remember any mention of transitioning into a self-contained regional conflict similar in scale to Heavensward with a new party. Thats some stuff ya'll put into your own head...this wasn't marketed. Not that I have anything against your personal headcanon of where you want the game to go, but you really shouldnt get yourself hyped up to the point your create things in your head like that, then get mad and deam it bad, when thing barly even started.
And..yes, you do have to wait, just like the rest of us. FFXIV spreads out its content and narrative in Patch Cycles.
Been this way for...idk, 10+ years?

New story, new characters. This cast still has no new characters and the story is picking up on stuff from Season 1. It really is that simple. Introduce new characters and although that ship has long since sailed how about we deal with something not cosmic-level like the void and something more grounded/regional. This is what many players all over social media have been asking for since before Endwalker even launched because it's what made the most logical sense. Edge of the universe and now to the void with the same people? Seriously?

Ill repeat it again....the story just started. Its probly way to soon to introduce new characters, and more then likely they will later when the story picks up and these new characters become relevant to reveal. Clearly you dont want to, but Ill say it anyway...Patience.

So? You're acting as if that is a good excuse. I don't believe that. I believe that 6.1 would have been a perfect oppurtinity to introduce new cast members. There is no reason why they wouldn't have been relevant to reveal now. Why wait to reveal them in favor of pushing the Scions onto us yet again only for half of them to just leave after the dungeon? It does not make sense.

Even aside from the novelty of the story, I haven't seen that many people on social media showing dissatisfaction with the direction of the plot in lieu of something more grounded. I'm sure there are SOME people who hold that opinion, but like I said before, you can find "some people" that hold any opinion and, I mean, this IS the same social media that we're constantly being told to dismiss as shallow, irrational catboy lovers.

Does the fact I am agreeing with them in this regard not raise questions? This was something that despite our differences we were of one mind about.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

So? You're acting as if that is a good excuse. I don't believe that. I believe that 6.1 would have been a perfect oppurtinity to introduce new cast members. There is no reason why they wouldn't have been relevant to reveal now. Why wait to reveal them in favor of pushing the Scions onto us yet again only for half of them to just leave after the dungeon? It does not make sense.

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Im not acting like anything or even making excuses. Fact of the matter, the story just started, nothing happened yet, they are building up, Thats how storytelling works. Fact.
You however are acting like they wont introduce new cast members just because they didnt do it right away, or what you believe is how everything should happen...reality knocking...things dont just go your way. Chill out my dude.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Does the fact I am agreeing with them in this regard not raise questions? This was something that despite our differences we were of one mind about.

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Why would it raise questions? If you search hard enough on social media, you're bound to find someone, somewhere who agrees with what you say, no matter what it is. You, or anyone else for that matter, are just as likely to be part of a social media group that somebody else mocks as they are part of a social media group that you or others mock.

So no, it's not that concerning.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

Now the only Scion that kind of felt hamfistrd in was Urianger. Which tends to be more of a writing problem. As when he's not exposition dumping he's showing up out of nowhere and handing us something that we need or will end up using soon.

All the meanwhile we gained Deryk, and Snoegeim who if Deryk doesn't end up being one of the twelve are two new people they can bring into other things. I also doubt we're done with Lorens.

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Urianger (and/or Thancred) has to be there. We needed a healer or tank for the party.

And seriously, when was the last time he turned up out of nowhere to give us random stuff? That's how they were using him when he was tied to the Waking Sands and they wouldn't move him elsewhere except for a fleeting cutscene appearance. They've broken that approach now and he's free to actually move with the plot and stay there.

And we are very unlikely to take people from side stories on MSQ adventures. At very least, the character needs to make sense whether or not we have met them before, with at most a variable line or two, so anyone who considerably changes over the course of the story is out. We could maybe meet Snoegeim again if she's an occasional consultant sort of character across several plots that could happen in any order, but Deryk seems unlikely.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Urianger (and/or Thancred) has to be there. We needed a healer or tank for the party.

And seriously, when was the last time he turned up out of nowhere to give us random stuff? That's how they were using him when he was tied to the Waking Sands and they wouldn't move him elsewhere except for a fleeting cutscene appearance. They've broken that approach now and he's free to actually move with the plot and stay there.

And we are very unlikely to take people from side stories on MSQ adventures. At very least, the character needs to make sense whether or not we have met them before, with at most a variable line or two, so anyone who considerably changes over the course of the story is out. We could maybe meet Snoegeim again if she's an occasional consultant sort of character across several plots that could happen in any order, but Deryk seems unlikely.

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You have an all rounder in G'Raha so you'd only need a healer. Story wise the only reason why Urianger is there is because the Loloprits want information on treasure maps. So that there's an in game explanation for the Excitatron 6000. Since they made the other map dungeon cannon already. If he wasn't the one who made the auracite or helped make it in ShB the last time he gave us something was SB. Both times he does it in SB our companions even make comments about not expecting him to just show up.

The reason he wants to come along is why one could see him being hamfisted. We could have taken Krile along as well. Since we know she can heal. I know we are most likely not to take side story characters. I used them as an example of new people we know of that if the devs have to replace the "A" team of Scions with they'd be options. Since I'm sure those who don't want any Scions moving forward wouldn't accept take Horry Boulder or any of the other "B" team. I think Deryk would be more likely just due to him being a wander. Unless again of course he turns out to be one of the 12 like many of us are suspecting him to be. I mean how many people expected Godbert to show up in the MSQ in SB?

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Originally Posted by SannaR

I mean how many people expected Godbert to show up in the MSQ in SB?

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Me, for one. After all, we had a really meaningful encounter in Bronze Lake in the MSQ back in ARR, so we're good.