Why do casuals act as if it's the end of the world when suggesting?

Casual-ish here. Max level in 3 combat jobs + 1 crafter. I have no problem with people who prefer more difficult content.
I've tried savage numerous (a dozen, maybe) times through PF practice groups, and have yet to beat one. Extremes and alliance raids are about my limit, and even those usually involve dying about once per boss.
I may never beat a savage raid, but I certainly don't have any problem with that content existing. I have friends who really enjoy and do well with it. I also don't feel compelled to have BiS in every slot, either, because I know the bar is just going to move every 6 months or so anyway.

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

How would you know whether or not you're an overhealer without breaking ToS by using an addon that I've never used? Also, I've never seen a normal raid wipe due to overhealing. Who is really outing themselves here?

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You do have a party list with HP bars, right?

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

How would you know whether or not you're an overhealer without breaking ToS by using an addon that I've never used? Also, I've never seen a normal raid wipe due to overhealing. Who is really outing themselves here?

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As if you need an addon to know that someone is overhealing when a regen such as Medica 2 or benefic is going out, addons just make it easier to understand , just some thoughts on some examples of odd reasons to use regens in my opinion
1- pre-emptively before we start on a boss
2- when you don't need to top people off for a raidwide , especially people that may have debuffs
3- everyone is already at high health so it's going to be wasted (e.g. applying it and everyone is already at 90% or more health) bonus if it goes up again right away
4 - people are moving to a location and will naturally regain health
5- there is already a regen on (easy to do in DF, but technically an overheal)

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

How would you know whether or not you're an overhealer without breaking ToS

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Mate everyone in the party is at least 95% we see you using that medica 2, we've done it before, we've learned, we're not blind we have anywhere from 2-3 buttons to press for dps in no particular order WE SEE YOU.

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

How would you know whether or not you're an overhealer without breaking ToS by using an addon that I've never used? Also, I've never seen a normal raid wipe due to overhealing. Who is really outing themselves here?

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By looking at your party list occasionally? Their health bar? Their buff bar? By learning just how much a certain spell/action will heal per use? By looking at those green digits popping when your co-healer spamming their Succors when you clearly have Asylum actively healing the party?

Yeah okay, let's overheal a bit because we're really insecure about that one SAM kept eating red carpets... that's completely fine. Alright so.. assuming we have no cooldowns left: just add 1 more Cure II/Medica II cast then go back to Glare III/Holy III spam? :(

My god y'all are destroying this man I feel kinda bad

Maybe they ve seen the slippery slope that happened in wow where they begun pandering to high end tryhards and now casuals are treated as 4th class citizens with worthless rewards and gears literally 30 ilvls below max.

Not saying its something that always happens, i get the feeling WoW devs are tryhards themselves hence why they treat casuals and solo players like trash unlike ff14 where the lead dev even said he wants to focus more on solo casual players

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Originally Posted by anhaato

I've never seen someone out themselves as an overhealer with such confidence, such self assurance, such absolute conviction and thorough belief that they know better than us.

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I mean, for most of the content casuals engage in (myself included), the single GCD wasted on Medica 2 instead of Glare here and there might cause overhealing, sure, and the decrease in total DPS might be noticeable, but we're talking a difference of what.. 5 minutes max in a standard issue dungeon?

If you're talking savage/ex trials and raids, different story sure...but standard issue dungeons? casual content stuff? I don't really see any harm in it.

Not that I'm saying overhealing is better- just that at the end of the day it's not that big of a deal unless they're wasting mp spamming medica when everyone's at 80%+ hp.

The question can be turned around. Why can't the hardcore be satisfied with the exclusive content catered to their playstyle and allow the casual player base to enjoy the content catered to their playstyle? In most of these arguments, it's not the more casual player base that never touches that content that's asking for more. It's those who do the optional hardcore content that get upset when they get bored in casual content and want to gatekeep it away from casual players.

If hardcore players want to make that argument that that optional content needs to be made harder, that's fine. That is a valid point of view. But often the argument is that the MSQ content is too easy and needs to be harder and the hardcore don't understand that that content is made with a wide variety of playstyles in mind and is not meant to challenge them. They will need to seek out different options to suit their playstyle the way the casual player base seeks out different options besides continuing on to Extremes and Savage and Ultimate to keep themselves busy in the game.

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Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

Maybe they ve seen the slippery slope that happened in wow where they begun pandering to high end tryhards and now casuals are treated as 4th class citizens with worthless rewards and gears literally 30 ilvls below max.

Not saying its something that always happens, i get the feeling WoW devs are tryhards themselves hence why they treat casuals and solo players like trash unlike ff14 where the lead dev even said he wants to focus more on solo casual players

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Except that's the opposite of what happened. The game's subs started to go down when they pandered too hard to casuals with things like Dungeon and Raid Finder.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

Except that's the opposite of what happened. The game's subs started to go down when they pandered too hard to casuals with things like Dungeon and Raid Finder.

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Yeah i am sure this is why wow is so successful rn lmao

Tryhards kept moaning about raid finder and lfr which doesnt hurt them and always blamed it for everything, hell Preach which some promote now was the guy in WoD that kept screaming that lfr trinkets were too good for casuals and got them nerfed.

But I am happy for you to argue how more accessibility hurts the games population and pandering to tryhards is a great idea for people who just want to login and have fun xD

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Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

Not saying its something that always happens, i get the feeling WoW devs are tryhards themselves hence why they treat casuals and solo players like trash unlike ff14 where the lead dev even said he wants to focus more on solo casual players

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I don't really get where this idea comes from. In WoW, as a casual player, I'd have access to far more content, and more meaningfully so. I have 8-12 endgame dungeons regularly rotated through, up from a grand total of ~8 only 3 of which are ever actually seen at a time. I have access to typically about double the raid bosses per expansion. I have 3 endgame zones with progressible systems and catch-up gear. I have 4 extra storylines at some ~4 hours' content apiece and progression for those. I have far finer difficulty levels available, as not to hit just hit a wall in having to jump from LFR to the equivalent of the harder end of Savage. There's flexible raid size, so it's far easier to form and maintain groups rather than having to leave out the unlucky remainders or leave and reform as soon as someone has to leave. People can change specs mid-raid, so we can also more easily adjust role compositions without leaving or regrouping at all. Heck, adding players doesn't even require leaving. There are tremendously more ways to gear up, even including XIV-like deterministic currency-based gearing (albeit less front-and-center). Weekly challenges are more integral and worthwhile. Gold-saucer equivalents aside, there's a fair bit more side-content. There's frequently rotated Unreal periods for entire expansions, rather than just select raids available for only a short time. If we were to look at actual gameplay time (not cutscenes and convos), there's about as much MSQ content. Catch-up gearing is far less time-gated. Etc., etc.

Where does this "WoW hates casuals" narrative come from? It's not like people regularly do Savage through the DF here, so why do we expect that to be the case there? Here, too, it's not like you can reach Savage BiS without actually doing Savage until far, far later, so why do we expect that to be the case there?

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

Except that's the opposite of what happened. The game's subs started to go down when they pandered too hard to casuals with things like Dungeon and Raid Finder.

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This, however, also seems conflated. WoW's subs peaked after dungeon finder became a main feature. WoW's subs spiked with the addition of Raid Finder. The game's subs went down first because of increasingly little content output and certain poor decisions, and later because of content-development time being siphoned (in ultimately useless fashion) towards systems-development.

Simply making it easier to form a damned party to actually do the content one wants to do did not diminish the game.

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Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

Yeah i am sure this is why wow is so successful rn lmao

Tryhards kept moaning about raid finder and lfr which doesnt hurt them and always blamed it for everything, hell Preach which some promote now was the guy in WoD that kept screaming that lfr trinkets were too good for casuals and got them nerfed.

But I am happy for you to argue how more accessibility hurts the games population and pandering to tryhards is a great idea for people who just want to login and have fun xD

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It's simple; in Vanilla, TBC, and most of Wrath, they catered to tryhards and the game had 10 million subs. They stopped, subs started to go down. Hmm...

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

It's simple; in Vanilla, TBC, and most of Wrath, they catered to tryhards and the game had 10 million subs. They stopped, subs started to go down. Hmm...

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Vanilla did not go out of its way to cater to tryhards; it was simply barebone.

Wrath was anything but tryhard-catering; it was far more casual-friendly, even, than Cataclysm, and did go out of its way to try to make the casual experience better, and retained higher sub counts partly for having done so.

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Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

hell Preach which some promote now was the guy in WoD that kept screaming that lfr trinkets were too good for casuals

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Specific trinkets were so good that one could be expected to do LFR for them before even going on to Normal raiding. We're talking massive damage bonuses that, worse, sometimes barely scaled with ilvl. Yes, they were overtuned. One can point that out without being "anti-casual".

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Where does this "WoW hates casuals" narrative come from?

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Rewards and power.

Rep mounts and most casual rewards are often rushed simply due to quantity, there was a meme with all the generic horse mounts they gave to rep vendors which are literally just recolours, those arent fun rewards and the cool rewards/titles almost always come from high end content aka rewards people want so much they buy boosts for, heroic boss mount or some mythic mounts like sylvanas.

And you are aware that especially since SL begun casuals cannot get gear that isnt trash, because that is the definition of gear that is literally 30 ilvls than what is available and is also easily achieved by just buying a m+15 per week so let's not pretend mythic gear is some epic achievement.
In legion and bfa people at least had some way of getting solo gear that is good, titanforging and visions allowed people to get really good competitive gear which made them feel power, an important part of mmorpgs. But because WoW panders to tryhards who keep moaning "omg you cant force me to do dirty casual content for gear" all sources of good gear from solo casual content have been completely gutted, in the same way Preach cried during WoD that he was forced to do dirty casual lfr for trinkets which got the trinkets nerfed.
All those things happen because tryhards moan that they are "forced" to do content that is "beneath" them and blizzard listens, guts all rewards and powerful gear for their sake leaving casuals with scraps since shadowlands begun and the numbers so that casuals left in droves because even BFA was better casual population wise

On contrast in ff14 you can get gear that is far closer to max level so your character doesnt feel like shit to play especially in pvp, because WoW pvp is a disaster exactly because they allow people with 30 ilvls difference go against each other and 30 ilvls of power is ENORMOUS difference, you might as well be a free kill if you join without mythic gear a month or two after a patch.

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Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

Rewards and power.

Rep mounts and most casual rewards are often rushed simply due to quantity, there was a meme with all the generic horse mounts they gave to rep vendors which are literally just recolours, those arent fun rewards and the cool rewards/titles almost always come from high end content aka rewards people want so much they buy boosts for, heroic boss mount or some mythic mounts like sylvanas.

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...And Savage mounts are...?

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And you are aware that especially since SL begun casuals cannot get gear that isnt trash, because that is the definition of gear that is literally 30 ilvls than what is available and is also easily achieved by just buying a m+15 per week so let's not pretend mythic gear is some epic achievement.

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A pretty damn casual player (modest understanding of their spec and how to coordinate, with little extra time or interest put into optimizing anything) can still typically manage a +10, which is enough to get within 15 ilvl of the +15 rewards you're railing against.

And I can get within 15 item levels of Heroic raid gear (equal to having fully decked out Normal raid gear -- equivalent to the easier end of Savage) just by upgrading sidecontent gear.

...What are you on about, exactly?

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But because WoW panders to tryhards who keep moaning "omg you cant force me to do dirty casual content for gear" all sources of good gear from solo casual content have been completely gutted, in the same way Preach cried during WoD that he was forced to do dirty casual lfr for trinkets which got the trinkets nerfed.

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"So, this trinket does about 300% the throughput of its competitors and barely scales with item level, to the point that a spec's output can vary by 14% dps just from having it. That's not good design." --> "Screw filthy casuals."

...Again, what are you on about?

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because WoW pvp is a disaster exactly because they allow people with 30 ilvls difference go against each other and 30 ilvls of power is ENORMOUS difference

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While I'd be fine with gear being a non-factor in PvP again (and they seem to be going back towards that direction next expansion), it's not an "enormous" difference. The effect of ilvl differences is already squished in PvP to a small fraction of what that gap would be in PvE. If you're getting utterly destroyed in PvP, that's gonna have relatively little to do with gear.

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All those things happen because tryhards moan that they are "forced" to do content that is "beneath" them and blizzard listens

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No, Blizzard literally has never listened to requests to not require zero-difficulty grinds of unwanted content loops as part of progression. They still force raiders through mind-numbing side-content grinds (Choreghast) just to have access to playstyle-forming upgrades like Legendaries.


You're off on virtually on counts here.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

It's simple; in Vanilla, TBC, and most of Wrath, they catered to tryhards and the game had 10 million subs. They stopped, subs started to go down. Hmm...

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Hard disagree. If anything, WoW is the “baby’s first MMO” of the early 2000s with no deleveling, mobs you could solo, and a lot of QoL improvements over its competitors.

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Originally Posted by OM3GA-Z3RO

There is just no in between with these people, they just think there is only braindead easy and elite hardcore difficult,

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but then..

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Originally Posted by OM3GA-Z3RO

Dungeons are braindead easy you can clear it with just using your 1-2-3 buttons and a healbot,

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... Ever think that some people might find that kinda midcore?


Your idea of hardcore and others idea of easy are likely wildly different.. maybe you ARE asking for what they consider "savage" difficulty?


Sure people react strongly.. but when you tell them that something they find challenging or at least engaging is "braindead easy"... maybe they have a point?

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

... Ever think that some people might find that kinda midcore?

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Could you (or, anyone) honestly call dungeons, content that people could AoE-step-one spam or auto-attack their way through, "midcore"?

Yes, subjectivity is a thing, but to go to the absolute minimum difficulty and suddenly call it "midcore" (i.e., "between the content regularly pursued by the 'hardcore' --those who prefer challenge and generally gravitate towards whatever sub-genres of content in the game that most provide it and/or reward commitment/investment in terms of time or knowledge-- and 'casual' --those who would form a pseudo-group that tends to prefer a broader span of content or may not find the more challenge-centric content as enjoyable or accessible (sometimes due to lacking the specific interest or contiguous time required to make satisfying progress in such sub-genres)"... is not a matter of subjectivity. That's just a misnomer.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

The question can be turned around. Why can't the hardcore be satisfied with the exclusive content catered to their playstyle and allow the casual player base to enjoy the content catered to their playstyle? In most of these arguments, it's not the more casual player base that never touches that content that's asking for more.

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That would be pretty sweet if that was the case but that sort of example falls flat when the devs are actively making content that was considered middle ground (current tier raids, 8 man raids, expert dungeons, ect.) easier due to the lack of mechanics that require you to do something outside of avoid the AoE. It would be like getting upset at someone who is complaining about having to eat pizza in a pizza place and their friend said "Why can't you be satisfied with the non pizza food offered?". Sure, it's there but the restaurant is not known for their dried out pasta and watery red sauce that isn't used on their pizza. Same situation and hopefully the criterion dungeons might be their answer. My heart says that's the case but my brain says "they are going to screw it up. :^)". Then again, i'm a glass half empty kind of guy, lol.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Could you (or, anyone) honestly call dungeons, content that people could AoE-step-one spam or auto-attack their way through, "midcore"?

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The new dungeons are decidedly not these. If every player does what you say, you will fail. Someone needs to heal and the boss mechanics require at least passing attention payed. Just because you can be carried, does not mean they are braindead. My main point being that it isn't up to ME to tell others what is hard or is easy, it's a matter of understanding that things I find reflexive may be someone elses wall, and vice versa.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Yes, subjectivity is a thing, but to go to the absolute minimum difficulty and suddenly call it "midcore" (i.e., "between the content regularly pursued by the 'hardcore' --those who prefer challenge and generally gravitate towards whatever sub-genres of content in the game that most provide it and/or reward commitment/investment in terms of time or knowledge-- and 'casual' --those who would form a pseudo-group that tends to prefer a broader span of content or may not find the more challenge-centric content as enjoyable or accessible (sometimes due to lacking the specific interest or contiguous time required to make satisfying progress in such sub-genres)"... is not a matter of subjectivity. That's just a misnomer.

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Making your text tiny is incredibly annoying. Just write it out. Again you are personally making a judgement call about what is easy and what is not. You are literally telling others that because a concept you find simple to understand is easily implemented BY YOU.. it's easy. Many people in this thread are subtly (and not so subtly) "bragging" about what they find easy and it's detracting from the actual problem. When someone says "don't make something savage difficulty!" try to understand what they actually consider to be that difficult before condemning them.



An absolute minimum difficulty (to me) would be the capability to login to the game and watch a cutscene and progress and even then I've seen people struggle. So my personal baseline doesn't matter and I need to remember that challenges to me aren't everyones challenges, and mind-numbing to me is someone elses whiteknuckle.

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Originally Posted by UNDEAD10000

No matter what difficulty is there is always people who says the game is either too hard or too easy.

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someone will always complain.. yes. However I am sometimes shocked at what the forum chooses to complain about.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

You are literally telling others that because a concept you find simple to understand is easily implemented BY YOU.. it's easy. Many people in this thread are subtly (and not so subtly) "bragging" about what they find easy and it's detracting from the actual problem. When someone says "don't make something savage difficulty!" try to understand what they actually consider to be that difficult before condemning them.

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The problem is a lack of empathy. I remember how much people ragged on others who didn't get the math boss in Ridorana. They would attack anyone who had difficulty with it and lord it over them that it was easy. For me, it was very easy. I never fail it. But with empathy it's not hard to see how someone just can't react that quickly, or can't calculate that quickly, or just gets confused on where to go, or any other number of reasons why it doesn't click. Like you said, our personal baselines don't matter. We need to think of the wider spectrum of people participating and what will be good for the whole.

I find it astonishing that people can look at the current dungeons and think there's any sort of difficulty there. A half decent tank alone can basically solo them, for petes sake.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

And Savage mounts are...?

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Are we talking about wow or ff14 right now, because the wow mythic mounts are absolutely superior to most trash you get solo

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

A pretty damn casual player (modest understanding of their spec and how to coordinate, with little extra time or interest put into optimizing anything) can still typically manage a +10, which is enough to get within 6 ilvl of the +15 rewards

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WoW's current max gear is 284, you can get 278 from m+ and early mythic bosses.

You telling me through casual solo ways like farming zereth mortis you are getting 272? Cuz last time I checked because I havent played WoW for a while you get an absolutely worthless 246 which is so trash people had 252 last season.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

"So, this trinket does about 300% the throughput of its competitors and barely scales with item level, to the point that a spec's output can vary by 14% dps just from having it. That's not good design." --> "Screw filthy casuals."

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Very interesting that you a moderate casual seem to even remember percentages and specific details like dps output.
Point remains, said trinket also existed in heroic and normal and mythic versions, yet the tryhards moaned because it was "too good for dirty filthy LFR", by tryhards i mean Preach since he was leading the moaning in youtube to get devs to nerf it so they dont feel "forced" to do the inferior casual LFR

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

No, Blizzard literally has never listened to requests to not require zero-difficulty grinds of unwanted content loops as part of progression. They still force raiders through mind-numbing side-content grinds (Choreghast) just to have access to playstyle-forming upgrades like Legendaries.

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Oh yeah that is why their latest patch barely has any form of worthwhile casual grind and rewards and it isnt just a raidlogging fest because their raiders cried since bfa about being forced to actually play the game rather than raidlog.

You keep screaming that devs didnt listen to tryhards about covenant swapping yet ignoring the fact that since shadowlands the game has becoming worse and worse for casuals with less and less good rewards with a focus on high end, but you arent a casual are you? Based on the detaisl you share you definitely are not just some casual who logins to have fun because you know a lot more than an actual casual cares about

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Originally Posted by OM3GA-Z3RO

God forbid when you suggest they should make content just a little bit more difficult, you get people that flip out.

Every casual that sees this behave as if their whole world is crumbling and they take that statement and exaggerate it reading it like: "All content needs to be Extreme/Savage Difficulty! Screw all the Casuals! Cater to the small minority! HOO-RAH!"

I mean, just chill. There is just no in between with these people, they just think there is only braindead easy and elite hardcore difficult, nothing in the middle. Dungeons are braindead easy you can clear it with just using your 1-2-3 buttons and a healbot, sure it will take longer but it is still possible.

"Nawt Mah Final Fantasy: Second Life Gaem!"

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I mean did you see my suggestion at fixing seasonals to not be lv 15 fetch quests or boring ass fates and to do what Toram does and have it broken up into different level brackets with a different story and mats and gear for each keeping up with the new level caps and just bringing back the old low level seasonal quests for the new players to be available alongside the new ones.

Most responses were "but the free trial players and casuals" I'm sorry but, I invest more money and time into this game I don't want the same boring ass lv 15 seasonal each God damn season with low lv miscellaneous crap as a reward. Sometimes we get good shit but most the time it's one stupid outfit maybe a furnishing and those God damn worthless misc poppers or whatever they're called.

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Originally Posted by Ketsufuma

just remember the devs need to cater to all play styles. There will always be more casual content then higher end stuff because there are more casual players. High end players get extremes savages and ultimate.

Its ok to want more. but i think its better to keep that convo to other like minded players so you or others dont get stressed out over anything that isnt to major of an issue :)

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It's quite a major issue when entire swaths of content like dungeons take zero effort to do and are rarely actually fun. Most trials and alliance raids as well. This is an MMO not a phone gacha game :)

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Originally Posted by kaynide

I mean, I would argue that the current raid is a little on the easy side, but that's fine.

For me, the mark of a good fight: I'm going to get hit by new mechanics because I don't know exactly what they're going to do, but after I see them once I've got a pretty good handle on how they work. I might die a few times, but my second or third time in the fight I'll be fine.

-or- if I watch MTQ's guide before, I'll be fine.

And that's the point- by watching a guide players remove the "difficulty" of the fight. If they want to do that to make it easier for themselves, that is fine. There's no need to make the fights harder than that in plain-old-story-mode.

I think the current difficulty of Endwalker's story-trials and dungeon bosses are mostly on point.

Anything Savage/EX, they can make as hard as they want.

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FF14 hard is entirely complicated mechanics you need to watch a guide and memorize to beat. Also number must be high enough. Even Dark Souls does it better as you can beat shit with a stick and loincloth if you want to and there are many ways to handle a boss.

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Originally Posted by Avatre

It would be nice to see more of an increase in difficulty for the story. Most single player games get harder the further along you go in a story, so why not XIV? It would also help if someone joins later in the games life, and decides after getting close to the current level caps, step into some of the older savage content and not have it unsynced.

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Because there exists a group out there of brain dead people who somehow never played a video game before and stumbled into FF14 with the promise of roleplay and cute cat girls and somehow can't do something I can do drunk at 3am. And as not to drive this mythical normie player base that really should be playing a gacha game or something if they're so "bless their hearts" we can't have reasonable difficulty. FF14 is either so easy you can afk and win or knock you on your ass requiring coordination of a well trained special ops unit to pass (looking at ultimate and the last two Asphodelos savages)

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Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

Are we talking about wow or ff14 right now, because the wow mythic mounts are absolutely superior to most trash you get solo

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That's true only to the same degree Savage/Extreme reward mounts are superior to mounts otherwise available to players in XIV.

How many mounts were added through Stormblood MSQ? How many Extreme mounts? How many raid mounts? Are we to pretend that the vast majority of mounts here, let alone the interesting ones, aren't locked behind less "casual" content?

Now, compare:

There have thus far been 3 Mythic mounts in Shadowlands. One is a more bone-spiked version of the generic skeletal horse. The second is an emaciated wispbat. The third is an old jellyfish model with glow and a steel hat.

There have been 24 new mounts added in Zerith Mortith alone, which include the likes of:
https://wow.zamimg.com/modelviewer/p...w/60/98876.png
https://wow.zamimg.com/modelviewer/p...w/66/98882.png
https://wow.zamimg.com/modelviewer/p.../97/104801.png
https://wow.zamimg.com/modelviewer/p.../28/100124.jpg

Korthia, likewise content predominantly done solo, includes such mounts as...
https://wow.zamimg.com/modelviewer/b...w/88/94296.jpg
https://wow.zamimg.com/modelviewer/b...158/100254.jpg
https://wow.zamimg.com/modelviewer/b.../72/100424.jpg
https://wow.zamimg.com/modelviewer/p.../240/98544.jpg

Each is far more unique than those Mythic mounts. And it's not as if Mythic mounts have never gotten casually accessible recolors elsewhere.

The vast majority of XIV mounts come from content outside the "casual" scope. The vast majority of those typically considered particularly cool, unique, or otherwise interesting, moreover, typically come from Savage or are locked behind massive Extreme trial grinds.

The vast majority of WoW mounts --even including those typically considered particularly cool, unique, or otherwise interesting-- on the other hand, are not from "hardcore" content.

Yet you treat that as a clear sign of WoW being "casual-unfriendly"?

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WoW's current max gear is 284, you can get 278 from m+ and early mythic bosses.

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Which has what, exactly, to do with the "+15 reward".

Okay, rolling with your goalpost switch...

In what world would you possibly need Mythic raid level gear while spitting at anyone and everyone who raids? There's no application for that gear; it's not going to be enough to compensate for a lack of skill in PvP, even, so what use have you that requires you to get that gear as to have full access to the content you want to do?

Heroic drops 265, Zerith Mortis itself can get you up to 252, equal to full Normal mode gearing, meaning that you could go straight in and Heroic raid, if you wished.

Now, to return to the actual content of what you quoted, a +10, which is far from particular difficult, awards 265 ilvl rewards through the Great Vault, which is, again, within a mere 15 ilvl of the maximum possible Great Vault reward (278).

A fairly casual player is not so gapped by the hardcore or clear-buyers that there becomes an increasingly unassailable wall between them or that you are compelled to buy runs (which aren't even legal to advertise). That small a gap is not making, purposely or otherwise, the game "casual-unfriendly"; it merely doesn't sap all rewards (however temporary, given catchup systems) from those who want to do more, who want to go further.

And with each new tier's release, there are huge catch-up systems. There's no significant difference there from XIV in its "casual-friendliness".

The stuff that's been most complained about, across the board, hardcore to ultra-casual, has been the content whose difficulty isn't as self-selectable; the more or less single-difficulty grinds --made first to give stuff to do to those who don't want to partake in what have been the bases of the game since Vanilla (raiding, PvP, challenging dungeons, etc.)-- have been applied to everyone, gating playstyle choice and full kits behind them, and that kind of sucks.

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Oh yeah that is why their latest patch barely has any form of worthwhile casual grind

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Are we talking about the epilogue (final x.x5) patch, or the one that gave an entire new zone and two new progression systems that allowed you to skip prior raid tiers in catch-up -- and even to skip the current one without falling behind in anything but your despised "hardcore" activities?

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Based on the detaisl you share you definitely are not just some casual who logins to have fun

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Shocking as it may be, I play games for fun. I see no other purpose in them. They are games.

Of course, so do hardcore players, regardless of whatever you've convinced yourself through hatemongering.

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Originally Posted by anhaato

...You're saying the content is hard because other people are bad players? That's kinda... not the content's fault my dude. Also simplifying it down to memorization just isn't accurate. Knowing how to use your rotation while reacting to difficult mechanics at the same time uses way more brainpower. And why is memorizing your rotation a bad thing anyway? That means you've built up experience and become comfortable with your job. What, is Gordon Ramsay bad at cooking because there's probably hundreds of dishes he knows to cook like the back of his hand?

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No. I am saying other players adds an element to the difficulty you have no control over. This statement is an emotional reaction to my comments, and bears little accuracy to the point I was making to you.

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Originally Posted by anhaato

There's no way you're actually mansplaining to me how playing a multiplayer game works. Crazy how the content you speak of still gets cleared relatively quickly with a bunch of shitters, huh? Recent alliances are the only "difficult" form of casual content that might get numerous wipes after the first day. Also, you act like there's no such thing as human error that creates situations that must be adapted to among "consistent" statics. Would you have the skill to adapt to E12S terminal relativity if people were dying who had necessary mitigations? What about adjusting for someone going to the wrong spot for temporal stasis in TEA? That's a whole different level of reaction time than someone hitting the wrong elemental circle in Dun Scaith.

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Apparently I do. I don't fault you there though. It is easy to lose sight as we gain more experience with the game, and sometimes we have to be reminded that causal content is as the name entails, "casual". It's not meant to greatly punish players who make mistakes. Casual content is designed to be cleared. If you want to get into clear rates, then we start getting into EX/Unreal/Savage content. You typically don't find casuals in this content. Players starting off with EX/Unreal content need to understand that there are true expectations to perform now. This removes the casual factor whether the player is casual or not. I am not saying that reactionary requirements are not present in high-end duties, I am saying that unlike scripted mechanics and streamlined rotations, reactionary requirements are not static.

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Originally Posted by anhaato

These are some insane mental gymnastics. People working hard to get good at the game and being consistent and making few mistakes means they're bad at the game actually, the ones who have to wrangle the shitters in normal content are like totally better at the game! Cope.

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I would avoid talking about getting good at a game wherein players actively use unsupported addons that not all players have access to in order make things easier, or gauge their own performance, or performances of others. I would also avoid it when you refer to your fellow teammates who are not as good as you as "sh**ters in normal content". Mental gymnastics are not required to engage/disengage with players with bad attitudes.

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Originally Posted by anhaato

If casual players are truly oh so good at the game for being shitter patrol, then surely the lack of skill in your df party shouldn't be a problem no matter the difficulty. But I don't see why you're arguing this, as I've said nothing about wanting all baseline content to be at savage level. I EXPLICITLY said that I want there to be more options in between. What's not clicking?

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I never made statements to you under the impression that you wanted baseline content at a savage level. I don't even know where you're getting that at all. My initial comments towards you was that mechanics and rotations don't provide much difficulty beyond the initial learning stage, due to being scripted and streamlined respectively. Memorization/following instructions are not retainable skills, and specific to a task; so they are not really transferrable either. That is the only reason why I said a casual player can outshine a savage runner in an alliance raid. It doesn't mean the casual is better at the game than the savage runner. It just means they are more adapted to reactionary situations in the game due to always grouping with random players, and never a static. You should not take offense to this, because it is not the intent of my statements...

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Originally Posted by anhaato

Just couldn't finish off without simping for the megacorp, huh? You people are all the same.

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But you decide to anyway. Such a shame.

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

hopefully the criterion dungeons might be their answer. My heart says that's the case but my brain says "they are going to screw it up. :^)". Then again, i'm a glass half empty kind of guy, lol.

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I swear to god if criterion dungeons are just some dumb eureka nonsense. If the only answer to they have to make difficult content is to nerf our character... honestly just sad, very sad.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Again you are personally making a judgement call about what is easy and what is not. You are literally telling others that because a concept you find simple to understand is easily implemented BY YOU.. it's easy. Many people in this thread are subtly (and not so subtly) "bragging" about what they find easy and it's detracting from the actual problem.

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You might as well say that there is no such as thing as a person being "short" or "tall" because there could always theoretically be someone shorter or taller.

There is no mainstay content easier than dungeons. To call it then, among mainstay content (and that is the obvious frame of reference here) a whopping "midcore" is some seriously stretched relativism.

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When someone says "don't make something savage difficulty!" try to understand what they actually consider to be that difficult before condemning them.

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But that's the thing. If you divorce all qualitative measures (e.g., "easy," "medium," or "hard") from their normal frames of reference (say, other reward-bearing content) and a more or less typical player's experience (judging it instead by such extremes as having barely "the capacity to login to the game and watch a cutscene")... you've purposely broken down communication. You'll have ignored context, you'll have not looked outside yourself to try to determine what's actually typical between your and others' circles, and you'll have just made it all instead into nonsensible ambiguity.

We needn't stop saying such things as "red" or "blue" just because the way you experience those colors might be different from the way others do. Focus instead on where someone is left with fewer colors, where there are no applicable difficulty levels between, say, "too easy" and "too hard" and address those. That means accessibility and support, yes, but it also means giving more damn options, more variety.

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Originally Posted by KurohNeko

FF14 hard is entirely complicated mechanics you need to watch a guide and memorize to beat. Also number must be high enough. Even Dark Souls does it better as you can beat shit with a stick and loincloth if you want to and there are many ways to handle a boss.

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While I would generally agree with you if we are talking about my personal level of play, I consider my play level/game skill as better than average.

Regardless of my personal level, the guides exist, are used by many and are especially useful to a lot of players I know, including my wife and our 60+ year old grandpa friend. They are not what I would call gamers, but they enjoy this particular game.

If the Japanese TV drama Father of Light wasn’t too obvious, these kinds of players are the target audience. We are not talking about dark souls vets. We are talking cookie crush or like.. the Sims.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

I swear to god if criterion dungeons are just some dumb eureka nonsense. If the only answer to they have to make difficult content is to nerf our character... honestly just sad, very sad.

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Honestly, I wouldn't be against proportionately greater reward (tokens, chance at additional drop, etc.) per ilvl synced down from the current (or past expansion's) ilvl cap in going for a [Minimum Item Level] run.

That'd be an easy way to let players make runs more challenging for themselves while also less punishing undergeared players (who could likewise just queue [Minimum Item Level] to feel like they've got fairer contribution, even if their run might take a bit longer).

But... that's something that should have been an easy shoe-in x.x5 patch back in Heavensward or the like, not a replacement for a new system.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

You might as well say that there is no such as thing as a person being "short" or "tall" because there could always theoretically be someone shorter or taller.

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Every instance of that has an easily verifiable standard. However some guy who is 5'6" in japan isn't considered short, while a 6 foot guy in say Sweden isn't considered tall. Context, perception and standard.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

There is no mainstay content easier than dungeons.

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MSQ non dungeons are content. New area's to explore and RP or just wander in are content. New items to play with or craft towards or gather are content.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

To call it then, among mainstay content (and that is the obvious frame of reference here) a whopping "midcore" is some seriously stretched relativism.

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When you're speaking to someone who claims you're asking for everything to be "hardcore" maybe get some of their perspective and don't assume everyone is using your standard.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

But that's the thing. If you divorce all qualitative measures (e.g., "easy," "medium," or "hard") from their normal frames of reference (say, other reward-bearing content) and a more or less typical player's experience (judging it instead by such extremes as having barely "the capacity to login to the game and watch a cutscene")... you've purposely broken down communication. You'll have ignored context, you'll have not looked outside yourself to try to determine what's actually typical between your and others' circles, and you'll have just made it all instead into nonsensible ambiguity.

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The problem that I'm stating being that all you're doing is saying your standard is "normal" and not even trying to see it from anyone elses.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

We needn't stop saying such things as "red" or "blue" just because the way you experience those colors might be different from the way others do. Focus instead on where someone is left with fewer colors, where there are no applicable difficulty levels between, say, "too easy" and "too hard" and address those. That means accessibility and support, yes, but it also means giving more damn options, more variety.

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I never said we shouldn't have more options or that what we have is fine and OK forever and everything. I'm saying if your problem is someone telling you that all your requests are "savage difficulty on everything" (the actual OP's complaint) maybe ask them what they think hard IS instead of yelling at them that everything is too easy.

When people ask for difficulty in dungeon, their asking for a dungeon that justify the presence of a healer in a group, that justify people doing their combo correctly and using their CD, not optimally just using it would already be gold.
It's a shame that the way to do "expert" right now is one tank and 3 DPS.
Some fight have mechanics that I will honestly says can be perceived as difficult from the lowest players "standard", but if dungeons were actually needing people to think every times, they wouldn't perceive some mechanics as difficult.
If criterion dungeon will be a thing, I don't think it will be more difficult dungeon but easier, that's my opinion on the subject, I don't think they will make them more difficult than actual dungeon...
But someone that complains when people ask for a bit more of difficulty in dungeon is just lazy right now. Especially for EW dungeon that are just a joke, everything is explained with markers even if not needed... Tank buster ? A marker. Multi-hits share ? A different marker. Nothing to discover, you have everything said before it hits.
Give hardcore player an interesting and rentable way to farm tomes without doing roulettes maybe they will less complains about easy dungeon cause right now, they are forced to do them for their gear...

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Originally Posted by Gemina

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You can argue semantics all you want, knock yourself out. The fact of the matter is that you're attributing the difficulty of normal content to the lack of skill of others who play it. Yes, lack of skill, because you specifically named mistakes. Just because I call them "shitters," and not to their faces, doesn't mean you're not also looking down upon your fellow players in doing so. I used to be a shitter, and I got better. Everyone has the chance to do so, just depends on whether or not they want to. Unfortunately, not a lot want to.

Your argument is fundamentally flawed because you fail to consider first that casual players and savage players overlap. Every savage player has some degree of experience in casual content.

Second, you refuse to understand that savage is not purely memorization, and I'm not sure how many times I have to explain that for you to get it. Have you done savage at all? I doubt it, considering you're arguing based on a fundamental misunderstanding of what it entails, but I'll retain benefit of the doubt for the time being. Feel free to prove that you know what you're talking about and are speaking from a place of experience rather than hearsay.

Becoming accustomed to rotations in tandem with mechanics is, itself, difficult. You seem to be intent on arguing that it's not, for whatever reason. Further, being able to quickly become accustomed to a fight in terms of correct mechanics and a consistent rotation is a skill that is built up over time. It's the difference between taking a while to get your first green in E1S versus getting your first purple in P1S within a matter of two or three clears. Is that not a retainable skill? Oh, whoops, sorry I forgot third party tools are bad! Guess that means I'm not good at the game, according to you (for the record I don't use ACT). Or am I? You don't seem to be able to make up your mind.

I would appreciate if you wouldn't backtrack. You distinguished memorization, after attributing it as the sole skill required for savages, from "true skills" for a reason. You talked about a "savage guru" getting outshined by people with these "true skills" for a reason. There's no reason you would argue this if not to prop up one type of player over another. If that wasn't the intent, then you must understand why that appeared to be so.

You argued "the difficulty the devs have to work at to make sure the game is playable for all their subscribers" for a reason. There's no reason you would argue this if not under the assumption that I was asking for normal content to be more difficult, which I did not. If that wasn't the intent, then you must understand why that appeared to be so.

No offense taken here, by the way. I simply disagree. And was I wrong? Were you not springing to Square Enix's defense with your asinine comment?

Also, if I were you I'd make sure I'm damn secure with my own performance before I started accusing others of reliance on third party tools in order to invalidate their hard work and skill. I won't be so shallow as to visit a certain website to determine whether or not you have the proper highground to be making such statements and try to use it against you if possible... but others will.

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Originally Posted by KurohNeko

Because there exists a group out there of brain dead people who somehow never played a video game before and stumbled into FF14 with the promise of roleplay and cute cat girls and somehow can't do something I can do drunk at 3am. And as not to drive this mythical normie player base that really should be playing a gacha game or something if they're so "bless their hearts" we can't have reasonable difficulty. FF14 is either so easy you can afk and win or knock you on your ass requiring coordination of a well trained special ops unit to pass (looking at ultimate and the last two Asphodelos savages)

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and this ladies and gentlemen, is why people don't listen to you.

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Originally Posted by KurohNeko

Because there exists a group out there of brain dead people who somehow never played a video game before and stumbled into FF14 with the promise of roleplay and cute cat girls and somehow can't do something I can do drunk at 3am. And as not to drive this mythical normie player base that really should be playing a gacha game or something if they're so "bless their hearts" we can't have reasonable difficulty. FF14 is either so easy you can afk and win or knock you on your ass requiring coordination of a well trained special ops unit to pass (looking at ultimate and the last two Asphodelos savages)

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That's funny because imo the first Savage tier in EW was perhaps too easy imo.
I'd probably say P3S is the hardest but mainly just because other people have a tendency to love to run into you with the glory spread so it's not even hard just people panicking very easily.
On my first P4S clear I had only reached Act 2 and tested it a few times before but I understood what to do we just never got past it because others didn't...
But then I did something a bit sneaky which I admit is bad which was to join a clear group open to helpers.
And we one shot it, I didn't even have to practice any of the mech after Act 2 they just solve themselves they're very easy to understand and execute.

I haven't done any of the Ultimates because I don't like being in statics and pugging them is not the best idea.
But imo Ultimates are fine, they're meant to be the hardest content.
I think it'd be a problem if it was like Mythic Plus in WoW or whatever it's called where it's like a whole raid tier, but having a single fight like that with Ultimates that is for a top percent of the players I think is totally fine.
And P1-4S should really be very manageable for casual players.

Maybe you won't week 1 as a casual in P1-4S but I don't think that's an issue either to me thad' be a sign that they're too easy too.
But at this point it's incredibly forgiving and the mechanics are quite simple to learn and not hard at all to execute.
Imo the mechanic complexity and execution difficulty in P1-4S kinda feels like normal too, punishing but simple so long as you're focused.

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Originally Posted by Kazelus

When people ask for difficulty in dungeon, their asking for a dungeon that justify the presence of a healer in a group, that justify people doing their combo correctly and using their CD, not optimally just using it would already be gold.
It's a shame that the way to do "expert" right now is one tank and 3 DPS.
Some fight have mechanics that I will honestly says can be perceived as difficult from the lowest players "standard", but if dungeons were actually needing people to think every times, they wouldn't perceive some mechanics as difficult.
If criterion dungeon will be a thing, I don't think it will be more difficult dungeon but easier, that's my opinion on the subject, I don't think they will make them more difficult than actual dungeon...
But someone that complains when people ask for a bit more of difficulty in dungeon is just lazy right now. Especially for EW dungeon that are just a joke, everything is explained with markers even if not needed... Tank buster ? A marker. Multi-hits share ? A different marker. Nothing to discover, you have everything said before it hits.
Give hardcore player an interesting and rentable way to farm tomes without doing roulettes maybe they will less complains about easy dungeon cause right now, they are forced to do them for their gear...

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The damage issue is indeed silly, it's kinda ridiculous to have everyone die and then the Tank just solos the boss for 10 minutes lol.

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Originally Posted by KurohNeko

Because there exists a group out there of brain dead people who somehow never played a video game before and stumbled into FF14 with the promise of roleplay and cute cat girls and somehow can't do something I can do drunk at 3am. And as not to drive this mythical normie player base that really should be playing a gacha game or something if they're so "bless their hearts" we can't have reasonable difficulty. FF14 is either so easy you can afk and win or knock you on your ass requiring coordination of a well trained special ops unit to pass (looking at ultimate and the last two Asphodelos savages)

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Good luck convincing the developers it's not those filthy brain-dead casuals they need to "cater" to, but your mouth-running self.