Endwalker is the most controversial expansion

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Originally Posted by Anura

Please make an objective comparison between Samba and Heavy Metal to me. Which one is better? Or maybe you could tell me which is better between Les Miserábles and The Three Musketeers. Or maybe you could point to the better author between von Goethe and John Milton. As of now, you haven't made a single argument in favour of objective art. You're pointing fingers and nothing else. Prove to me that art is objective and leave the "it comes with experience" out of it, it proves nothing. Come, be objective.

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These comparisons are not valid. Comparing endwalker to previous expansions would be more of a "devil wears prada" vs "the red and the black". Goethe, Dumas and others you tried to compare are all praised for their work because of the print it left in history. You cannot seriously discuss profound literary geniuses in the same category with a niche video game. Stop being disingenuous and superficial. Be more objective in your comparisons.

I feel like the 6.2 patch is going to be what makes or breaks things for a lot of people as it's when new systems like Island Sanctuaries and Criterion dungeons are being introduced, and if they can't hold interest effectively or for long we're going to be back in the usual cycle of things.

Though I don't see myself ever dropping my sub regardless unless the writing of the story got to a point where it was consistently and unbearably dissonant with my own feelings.

My expectations for island sanctuary are already on the floor - little more than a space where minions can run around without collision issues or glitches. When the "community" on twitter and reddit find out that it isn't the fabled instanced housing people have been asking for the past 8 years, it'll make the lottery drama seem like nothing thanks to the influencer interviews that mistakenly portrayed the limits of this feature.

As for criterion dungeons, who can say. I too also want harder dungeon content but the thought of it being locked behind a weekly grind or only allowed to do it weekly would ruin any fun I might have had for the feature. At least other midcore content like EX fights can be done over and over again. Deep dungeon is something I enjoy that's coming eventually but if that happens to release next to Forspoken/FFXVI then my choice is obvious.

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Originally Posted by Larirawiel

No, it is not. They have completely messed up the whole time travel thing. And some decitions the protagonists made are very questionable.

But overall, the Endwalker story is good. Better than Stormblood, IMHO.


Cheers

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How so? The time travel works, it simply means everything was predetermined.

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Originally Posted by DevonEllwood

I honestly didn't think people like you actually existed.

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We exist. And yes, I will judge your intelligence and literary abilities based on your judgement of Endwalkers story.

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Originally Posted by KurohNeko

How so? The time travel works, it simply means everything was predetermined.

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No, it does not work. Or try to answer this question: who invented the name "Hydaelyn" in the game?


Cheers

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Though I don't see myself ever dropping my sub regardless unless the writing of the story got to a point where it was consistently and unbearably dissonant with my own feelings.

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I took a month long break after 6.0 because I was so unhappy with it and have been debating quitting ever since. I like the game and I don't want to quit, but the writers and I are not ethically on the same page and that is concerning going into a "conflict of values" arc.

I quit WoW before BfA due to the Burning of Teldrassil and the experience of EW was disconcertingly similar. I'm holding out hope some of the negative feedback will lead to a course correction I'll see signs of in 6.2, but I'm not optimistic. It's a shame because I thought I'd found a new main MMO and had been enjoying the story up to that point.

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Originally Posted by anhaato

If no one else got me I know my boys Lauront, Theodric, and Kizuya got me

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The Three Horsemen of having good taste.

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Originally Posted by Larirawiel

No, it does not work. Or try to answer this question: who invented the name "Hydaelyn" in the game?


Cheers

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It’s a bootstrap paradox what about it? Does the presence of the ship of Theseus problem in Star Trek ruin that as well?

Having a closed time loop feels like it makes our decisions up to that point meaningless because they were going to happen anyway. That is why people don't like it, along with the fact that even with full knowledge of the timeline Venat decided to go the "I am a supreme goddess" route instead of actually making herself useful and helping her people.

Time travel wise i think it’s the fact we’ve had like 3 different time travel explanations so far. Why is that? Why is there allowed to be a branching timeline for the protagonists in ShB to continue living, yet….that’s impossible now in EW for the ancients? Convenient isn’t it? How everything works out for the protagonists but when we apply it to the antagonists or the ancients rather….it’s just not able to be done.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Watch what happens when FFXVI releases and those of us who are the single-player RPG fans this game (allegedly) tries to cater to decide our time is better spent in Valisthea with Clive and his revenge story than slurping tea with the Scions.

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Considering Im a huge fan of the Atelier games, I like both options.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Having a closed time loop feels like it makes our decisions up to that point meaningless because they were going to happen anyway. That is why people don't like it, along with the fact that even with full knowledge of the timeline Venat decided to go the "I am a supreme goddess" route instead of actually making herself useful and helping her people.

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Closed loops exist in reality as well. Time travel is theoretically possible, and it can’t violate causality, so a closed loop is all that it can be. Not to mention we’ve had a closed loop in 14 since HW. Why is it a problem now?

Endwalker's story is absolutely terrible. It's trite, contrived, and childish.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

It’s a bootstrap paradox what about it? Does the presence of the ship of Theseus problem in Star Trek ruin that as well?

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I dunno. I never watched Star Trek.

We got time travel experts in here now

https://www.streamscheme.com/wp-cont...kekw-emote.jpg

Endwalker is my favorite so far.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

It’s a bootstrap paradox what about it? Does the presence of the ship of Theseus problem in Star Trek ruin that as well?

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When i see the current state of Star Trek then, yes, it is ruined. :3


Cheers

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Originally Posted by Larirawiel

When i see the current state of Star Trek then, yes, it is ruined. :3


Cheers

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The problem existed in the original series though.

Well this is the forums, so people tend to be in a different plane of existence most of the time in terms of a viewpoint on this game versus those that actually ignore the forums and play instead.

I'm not convinced facts even come into the equation here.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Closed loops exist in reality as well. Time travel is theoretically possible, and it can’t violate causality, so a closed loop is all that it can be. Not to mention we’ve had a closed loop in 14 since HW. Why is it a problem now?

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Like it wasn’t stupid as hell then? Lol people just didn’t have as much of an issue with it because it was self contained side content that didn’t affect the mandatory msq.

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Originally Posted by anhaato

Like it wasn’t stupid as hell then? Lol people just didn’t have as much of an issue with it because it was self contained side content that didn’t affect the mandatory msq.

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I don’t think people had that much of a problem with it is what I’m saying. Not sure why now it’s an issue.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

I don’t think people had that much of a problem with it is what I’m saying. Not sure why now it’s an issue.

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Because it's used to explain major plot points in a story arc introduced 10 years ago instead of a minor thing?

It's all about context. People usually don't care about handwaved stuff and inconsistencies in side content like Hildibrand, but when the entire myth arc depends on it, it's a whole another story.

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Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

Are you sure about that?

Shadowbringers had nearly no detractors. That Endwalker has plenty of critics, well. It should tell you something.

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I remember a ton of drama going back as early as Heavensward, people do this every single time with every expansion it's an endless repeating cycle.
Every expansion is '' the worst and most controversial ever '' until the next expansion is out and then suddenly it wasn't so bad after all.
People have short-term memory.

People seriously need to play some other MMO's and get some actual perspective, the problems people ramp up as severe and controversial are so incredibly minor by comparison.
And there's so much over-dramatization of everything ( in the OP included ).
Much like on other websites and the reason why clickbait articles are so common place even if people say that they hate them.
It gets more likes and attention.
Ragebait and drama works.

I really don't see this kind of divison as is being described at all either outside of the same people on the forum ranting endlessly about it again and again and upvoting each other.
There's people on this forum who have 50-100 or even more negative threads alone.
On Reddit it's mostly memes, and there is also no way of even confirming who plays the game altogether.
It's the same on Twitter but you can't really judge these things accurately because it depends on who you follow/ don't follow.
But I dunno where all of this supposed negativity there is either.

I think that the truth is too that most people don't care about stuff like Kaiten being removed.
I don't think it's a good thing and I really hate the change too, and Yoshi-P actually did apologize for it and said that we should keep giving feedback on it and that they might revert it.
But this isn't some kind of a sky is falling scenario.
These are ultimately minor issues in the grand scheme of things, something that every expansion has had and will have that don't even affect a significant portion of the playerbase.

The narrative just never changes, people were flipping out about SHB all the time here and Heavensward had way worse balance issues and design decisions that people ranted endlessly about.
I actually enjoyed '' BRD mage '' but I still remember how mad people were about it, and as someone who played MNK from ARR to EW and swapped this expansion I've been around and remember how perpetually mad we've been about it lol.
These things happen all the time...
It's bound to happen because you have so many different people to please, not everything is going to make everyone happy and you'll mostly really hear from the people who are unhappy because those are the ones who take to the forums.
People who are happy are less likely to go and talk about it online, especially since most of this is really just venting for people and there is no reason to do that if you're happy.

I actually enjoy both Eureka and Bozja still but it's the same there too, people who hate/ hated them will be more noticeable.

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Originally Posted by Aluja89

Good lord the time travel makes me want to bash my head into something. First it was a solid static loop with Alexander, then it was multiverse with Graha(which is fine, they're not mutually exclusive), then EW comes around looking all derpy with linear timeline!!!

And there was such an easier way to do it, the echo.

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If the entirety of the Elpis story arc was presented through Echo flashbacks, that would be a huge amount of time spent watching a plot that does not involve us.

I think it was quite clever to have us directly go there, though it should have wrapped up more neatly with everyone including Venat losing their memory of us. (Meteion still needs to remember us, but she leaves before the wipe goes off.)

Also, I'm not sure why you're describing Alexander as a "static time loop" and Endwalker as a "linear timeline" as if those are different things. Both are equally stable time loops which by nature take place along a linear timeline.

I've previously put a lot of thought into resolving the mismatch between Alexander and Shadowbringers (which I don't think is full multiverse, just a single rare split only possible because a time traveller broke their own past), and Endwalker is consistent with the theory I had worked out for those earlier events.

I'll spare you the full essay this time, but the linear timeline along which a stable loop forms does not need to be the only timeline in existence. The Elpis time loop only involves our branch of the split timeline, and doesn't need to involve the Eighth Calamity timeline at all because what we did at Elpis remains part of the other timeline's history.

I don't recall much in the way of backlash in response to Heavensward. It was heavily praised and most of the drama, I recall, was based around the long delay between 3.0 and 3.1.

Stormblood was a mixed bag though despite some finding it to be 'boring' it wasn't nearly as divisive as Endwalker proved to be. In no small part, I suspect, because it didn't try to justify the genocide of the Ala Mhigans or Domans. Meanwhile we have Endwalker which writes off a bunch of men, women and children and tries to present their genocide as the actions of a 'good person'. Weird!

Shadowbringers wasn't necessarily what people expected at the time, though it was widely praised for the most part.

Certainly, you can go back through any past expansion and find negative reactions but there's something of a perfect storm at play these days. Not only are we missing a planned expansion, the story - supposedly the bulk of focus in the game - has been compromised on many fronts. Then we add in tone deaf statements from the lead developer such as 'go play ultimate' in response to years worth of healer concerns, the prolonged mismanagement of player housing, the hyper focus on pleasing the Twitter sphere, Hrothgar hairstyles and various other factors...well, it becomes a bit too much even for many veteran players.

Why didn't they just have us use the already established Echo to experience a vision of Elpis instead of creating another convoluted time-travel plotline when ultimately physically going to Elpis was pointless when all we needed was information which we could've gotten just via a vision anyway.

Or wait, why not use those memory stones from Bozja storyline to physically enter a MEMORY rather than literally time traveling? Having us enter a memory physically would completely prevent any of the narrative problems that naturally arise from time travel and ultimately achieve the same intended goal.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

I remember a ton of drama going back as early as Heavensward, people do this every single time with every expansion it's an endless repeating cycle.
Every expansion is '' the worst and most controversial ever '' until the next expansion is out and then suddenly it wasn't so bad after all.
People have short-term memory.

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So the game keeps getting worse is what you’re saying? Sounds to me like each expansion is more controversial than the last. I’ve already explained my rationale as to why I feel there’s more controversy this time around; YoshiP is having to defend himself over game changes more than ever before. He even had to go on live with Ishikawa for the first time ever to EXPLAIN THE STORY a couple months after it dropped. That’s unheard of! Like I said, I was only around at the tail end of SB so maybe I missed out on some serious shitstorms, but for the whole of ShB things were never this bad. More people are upset than ever before. Even if it’s a small number compared to other players who aren’t (vocally) upset that you say is being “dramatized” (explain how I dramatized it?) it’s still more than ever before.

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

Why didn't they just have us use the already established Echo to experience a vision of Elpis instead of creating another convoluted time-travel plotline when ultimately physically going to Elpis was pointless when all we needed was information which we could've gotten just via a vision anyway.

Or wait, why not use those memory stones from Bozja storyline to physically enter a MEMORY rather than literally time traveling? Having us enter a memory physically would completely prevent any of the narrative problems that naturally arise from time travel and ultimately achieve the same intended goal.

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They could've just kept us with the transparent looking bodies and let us walk around and observe things as it happened.

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Originally Posted by Neoyoshi

Well this is the forums, so people tend to be in a different plane of existence most of the time in terms of a viewpoint on this game versus those that actually ignore the forums and play instead.

I'm not convinced facts even come into the equation here.

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Most of the people who play the game dont even know these forums exist and those that do mostly just laugh at all the horrendous takes from afar

Can someone please explain to me why people despise criticism of the game enough to cope about “WELL THE SILENT MAJORITY AGREES WITH ME” and act like we’re trolls or we want to see the game fail or something? Like, what about us wanting to enjoy the game again is so awful?

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Originally Posted by sorawild34

Most of the people who play the game dont even know these forums exist and those that do mostly just laugh at all the horrendous from afar

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I don't think that's the case at all, for the reasons I outlined in response to the previous attempt to try and declare it as such:

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Originally Posted by Theodric

The official forum really isn't anywhere near as bad as the likes of Reddit or Twitter, where credible death threats and horrific abuse are sent to people who dare to subscribe to an opinion that goes against the carefully curated 'correct' opinions.

The fact that the FFXIV Reddit Discord is run by individuals who had a secret channel for inappropriate images of Lalafell is reason enough to declare this place harmless in comparison. At the very least, anything genuinely unsettling or explicit will be removed by the moderators.

Furthermore, a lot of the people who attack the official forum just so happen to be bitter ex-posters who were banned for going too far at some point in the past. Or they simply echo what other players say about the place despite having no meaningful engagement here themselves.

You should probably look into what Scottzone was subjected to for a good example as to how this 'great' community handles criticism of the game.

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I daresay more people are looking at the game's community on Twitter and Reddit only to start backing away slowly given how volatile such places are in general, let alone when it comes to a specific fandom. This place is pretty civil and I do find myself genuinely confused that some light critique is being pushed as some grave, unreasonable sin.

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised given how volatile some people get over the idea of someone placing pineapple on a pizza...but I also think it's worth noting that some of us don't make the game itself a part of our personality to the degree that we take criticism of it as an attack upon our very being.

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Originally Posted by anhaato

Can someone please explain to me why people despise criticism of the game enough to cope about “WELL THE SILENT MAJORITY AGREES WITH ME” and act like we’re trolls or we want to see the game fail or something? Like, what about us wanting to enjoy the game again is so awful?

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Random Player: "I was disappointed with this expansion and here's why..." *states all of their opinions*

The Great Community BTW: "You obviously didn't pay attention to the story..." "You didn't understand the theme fof the story..." "You must've skipped some cutscenes..." "Well you're in the minority. Most people enjoy it. *shrug*" "Just unsub if you're so unhappy. Complaining about it isn't gonna change anything." "You need to touch grass because you're analyzing things way too deeply. It's just an mmo." "THIS IS BAIT" *makes forum post titled If You Hate the Story Why are you Here?*

Random Player: "Damn all I did was say my opinion."

The Great Community BTW: "You said it like it was objective fact. It's like art, everyone has their own perspective."

Random Player: "...I'm sorry. I didn't realize I had to add "IMO" after every sentence."

The forums may have bizarre takes every now and then but there is stuff that is still universal (aside from spaces where people know they'll be talked down to if they share a dissenting opinion).

"Actually, Summoner should keep its poison magic because Rydia had Bio, managing Carbuncle's (glitches and ghosting) behavior was the fun of the job for me" is an example of a take from these forums that neither the twittersphere nor serious players take seriously. Man was that a conversation.

"Summoner is missing X still, despite the rework. I want to play this but it feels lacking for a level 90 job, even if I am grateful for a break from the carpal-tunnel rotation of Shadowbringers" is an example of a middle ground/reasonable take, and my own opinion regarding that whole situation. Would that people suggested actual improvements as opposed to dots and busywork/reversions then perhaps those cyclical SMN threads might have gone somewhere (but apparently my ideas of adding more Summons, ogcd or otherwise was too radical for a job literally called Summoner).

Likewise, in terms of story there are actual arguments underlying people's opinions that aren't just strange one-offs that don't stand on their own. Here people have discussed at length their grievances with Venat, yet if you even dare to say the same of twitter people have accused me of being unemotional or that I dislike women. How is that logical? Or worse if I dare to criticize G'raha Tia I get met with the endless drone of "he went through so much just let him take a break!" as if that makes his scenes any less weird or creepy.

I only hope that sector of the community doesn't follow me into FFXVI, the last thing I want is to deal with adults who equate Alphinaud's scholar personality = feminine like the one user who drew him in a dress earlier this week to apparent acclaim from the twittersphere. I don't want to see people drawing Joshua that way given that he's more a bookish type person too. Or worse, goodness forbid they try to justify whatever machinations led to the destruction of Rosaria as being "for the greater good" if it turns out to be the woman present at the council meeting, and any attempts at criticizing her will be branded as hating women.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

The problem existed in the original series though.

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Maybe. But the problems with causal loops in EW are so obvious, that i wonder how they made it into the game. Did the story writers really overlook them? I can hardly imagine that.


Cheers

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Originally Posted by Larirawiel

Maybe. But the problems with causal loops in EW are so obvious, that i wonder how they made it into the game. Did the story writers really overlook them? I can hardly imagine that.


Cheers

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I guess I just don’t see causal loops as a problem.

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

Because it's used to explain major plot points in a story arc introduced 10 years ago instead of a minor thing?

It's all about context. People usually don't care about handwaved stuff and inconsistencies in side content like Hildibrand, but when the entire myth arc depends on it, it's a whole another story.

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That applies to ShB as well right? I guess I just struggle to see where Endwalkers handling of time travel is so different as to make it a problem

As much as I enjoyed Emet & Hyth, being in another situation of 'you're Azem but not really' wasn't particularly satisfying. I would've preferred first person perspective Echo flashbacks as Azem or a 'follow along silently and eavesdrop' situation similar to the mechanic introduced in Garlemald and the moon. Making my character an accomplice to the sundering was definitely not worth whatever 'fan service' I may have gotten out of Elpis.

Regarding the "silent majority", I'd just like to point out that's what was said in WoW too. "People are happy playing the game, only 1% of players come to the forums to complain."

Honestly, I love the Expansion...but I cant accurately Grade it per-say until it is 100% done and concluded, and now we are at the next Expansion
Like it was easy to put down Stormblood because of its rather weak Vanilla Narrative. But over time, its side content and its post story leading up to Shadowbringers was amazing, and it overall made me thing Stormblood had a weak start, but a great Finish. So I see it Positively.

I cant say the same with Endwalker, until it is finished. MAYBE something might change and alter thoughts later.
Thats just my take

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

That applies to ShB as well right? I guess I just struggle to see where Endwalkers handling of time travel is so different as to make it a problem

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The problem with Endwalker was that it attached a causal loop to one of the most fundamental far-reaching events in the game's lore that shaped the world and the motivations of several characters in ways both direct and indirect.

It also left a very ugly question hanging in the air of just how much Venat/Hydaelyn knew was going to happen and just let it happen because "the future said so", and makes some instances where she claims have been trying to prevent tragedy (Such as with the First and the flood of light) feel like she was going through the motions because it had to happen in order to maintain the loop.

I feel like it cheapened a lot of the decisions made by various characters in general. IE, the context for Emet-Selch saving us from Elidibus was no longer just a matter of him having been convinced to place faith in us and the sundered; nope, he already knew us personally beforehand and that we were to be instrumental in stopping the Final Days.

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Originally Posted by Maxilor

Based.

That's a pretty hot take, most of the community is in absolute love with the PvP Changes.

For curiosities sake, would you care to elaborate?

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No.

Is what I would say, but it won't let me cause I need more characters. So instead I will say that I liked the old PVP in Frontlines. I liked being my role in PVP. Everyone is going off about how the pvp changes are somehow better for class fantasy.

I am a fucking white mage. Death star laser is not part of my fantasy. Healing my party is.