The Problem(s) with Paladin

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Originally Posted by Arkine

So people will use the same old WAR/BLM/BRD stacking method but have 1 person change to PLD when they get to Chimera.

Speed runs needs to go away.

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Pretty much. I just did not expect WAR to be outdps'd by PLD on Chimera. Much of a shock tbh.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

The tank isn't the only one taking damage. You still need 2 whms to take care of the other people taking damage. Those people who eat flares on the mog fight, people who get hit by cracks on ifrit and die. 2 Regens for running through AV.

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That is precisely the issue here. (o.0 ) Well said.

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Originally Posted by LytheJade

It sounds more like people just prefer War over Pld and a lot less like Pld is somehow not measuring up to War.

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Straight-forward vs needlessly complex. The prevalence of K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple, Stupid) removes any doubt of which would be more popular.

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This debate reminds me way too much of Ninja Vs Pld in 11, and sounds like people just do not want to tank with a classic tank. I know a bit of over-simplification, but, this is an MMO, people are always going to push for the highest numbers, and, well, SE will never intentionally make a tank job that simply holds hate against everything everyone throws at a mob.

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You cite an incorrect example, which goes beyond simplification. People liked NIN tanks because they took no damage. No damage = less MP spent curing them = faster kills due to less resting = more EXP/hour.

Tanking with a classic tank can work, but the classic tank has to also adapt to what the modern MMO design calls for. You can't get away with having a tank that does 20 DPS when you have a tank that can go a better job at holding mobs and does 70 DPS. This isn't 1997 and we're not playing Everquest. If multi-target Flash could be acquired earlier in the game and War Drum did decent damage, had a good and noticeable enmity spike and was on a shorter cooldown, GLA/PLD would be part of the way to catching up to WAR on multiple mobs.

As I mentioned somewhere else, the main problem comes from the difference in weapon damage and how much it affects damage potential because of it. We wouldn't be having these problems if WAR tanking involved a one-handed axe and a shield. The playing field needs to be levelled between both jobs and any future additions to prevent this current issue from lingering, because at no point should game mechanics ever encourage the community to use one and not the other(s).

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Originally Posted by Luhy

There is one problem with Paladin. It doesn't build hate as quickly at the start of a fight.

I tried Paladin on Chimera last night. Even though I took much less damage and by the end, had way more hate (and did more DoT) than a WAR, everyone complained that they had to hold off when we first engaged. Antagonize + AF Helm is still too strong and with speed runs, people aren't comfortable with that. Speed runs need to be eliminated or PLD needs a move for burst enmity+ Maybe Spirits Within or Hallowed Ground could give +3000 Enmity or something like that.

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A nice opening for PLD that generates a lot of hate you might be interested in

Divine veil + outmanouvre = a decent chunk of TP to activate
Sentinel -> flash -> voke = boosted enmity generation from the following abilities from sent and spike enmity from flash and voke
War drum -> phalanx -> spirits within (which is damage x2.5 = enmity)
and it shouldnt take long before you can
fast blade ->flat blade (which is damage x 5.5 = enmity)

little note: during that first part with divine veil up you cant be interupted from spell casting as blocks prevent it, so let your whm have you do the first holy succor on yourself, if you heal for 1k hp thats 600enmity in the bag right there)

(note - I do currently have +164 enmity (16.4%) but only 1 piece of Heavy Darklight :/)
I've been doing speed runs with CC and AV as well as getting 60k+ points in hamlet with only me on paladin.
The second group in our CC run uses a war and he stays as war till after the princess, Steel Cyclone out of combo for 1000 tp is a great cleanup for little ants, all the other DD in that fight go Dragoon and its simply amazing.


Paladin is a damn good tank, I can straight tank the coin counter now, dont even care about 1000t swing (aegis boon or sentinel & divine veil + holy succur (uninteruptable cast) , and every time he uses swipe its a riot blade in the ass for D-Down. On war it was a panic as a single screwup or lag whilst running from swing could bone everything.

There is a skill barrier with paladin. Warrior just needs an ice pack from the friction of rolling your face across the keyboard.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

because at no point should game mechanics ever encourage the community to use one and not the other(s).

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Square-Enix needs to take this quote, write it on a sticky note, and slap it ontop of their forehead, so everytime they look in the mirror, they can remind themselves on how job structure should work.

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Originally Posted by Junpei

A nice opening for PLD that generates a lot of hate you might be interested in

Divine veil + outmanouvre = a decent chunk of TP to activate
Sentinel -> flash -> voke = boosted enmity generation from the following abilities from sent and spike enmity from flash and voke
War drum -> phalanx -> spirits within (which is damage x2.5 = enmity)
and it shouldnt take long before you can
fast blade ->flat blade (which is damage x 5.5 = enmity)

little note: during that first part with divine veil up you cant be interupted from spell casting as blocks prevent it, so let your whm have you do the first holy succor on yourself, if you heal for 1k hp thats 600enmity in the bag right there)

(note - I do currently have +164 enmity (16.4%) but only 1 piece of Heavy Darklight :/)
I've been doing speed runs with CC and AV as well as getting 60k+ points in hamlet with only me on paladin.
The second group in our CC run uses a war and he stays as war till after the princess, Steel Cyclone out of combo for 1000 tp is a great cleanup for little ants, all the other DD in that fight go Dragoon and its simply amazing.


Paladin is a damn good tank, I can straight tank the coin counter now, dont even care about 1000t swing (aegis boon or sentinel & divine veil + holy succur (uninteruptable cast) , and every time he uses swipe its a riot blade in the ass for D-Down. On war it was a panic as a single screwup or lag whilst running from swing could bone everything.

There is a skill barrier with paladin. Warrior just needs an ice pack from the friction of rolling your face across the keyboard.

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100tonze is not only an immediate example, but a sample of things to come. Specifically designing a tank with low HP (partially fixed now) is fundamentally counterintuitive, and the issue will come up again in future content. Repeatedly, in fact.

Additionally, thank you for the note on the incremental nature of enmity. (O.o ) Some players do not believe how small an effect an individual enmity point has on your hate output. Another seasoned PLD pointing out the facts is always useful!

OP i agree with everything you said i want you like your post 10,000 times but sadly i can not. A Few things i wanted to note tho.

Like you said pld needs to be able to handle more mobs.

They could make cover act like Rampart, if cover hits anyone in range the monster attack will be auto directed to the user.

Flash: I would really like to them to make this skill act more like XI's version insane acc down that will make the mob usually miss their first attack before it wears.

War drum: This skill needs the block req removed and make it cost 500tp also make it so the skill forces pld to the top of the hate list for 10 secs for anything it hits.

Lastly DEF: This one annoys me the most cause i would like to know if the dev team can speak on if they are making stats work like shit on purpose. While this does include other classes when changing to jobs other stats need to change besides base stats.

GLA: DEF/MDEF should increase by 150 when changing to pld.

THM: Enfeebling magic pot/should increase by 100 when changing to BLM

CNJ: Should get 150 more Enhancing magic potency.

PGL; 100 Evasion when changing to mnk.

LNC: 50 attack power/50 crt hit rate when changing to drg

MRD: 75 DEF/75 attack when changing to war

ARC: idk don't play the class >_>.

I also think these should come with some other stat being reduced.

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Originally Posted by Junpei

There is a skill barrier with paladin. Warrior just needs an ice pack from the friction of rolling your face across the keyboard.

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Very good point.

When playing PLD, you are constantly busy and having to monitor MP, HP, Hate and the actions of the mob. Playing WAR is rather straight forward and offloads a decent portion of its work to the WHM.

In regards to player workload and attention level, I've found PLD (FFXIV) to be more reminiscent of NIN (FFXI), where WAR (FFXIV) plays like PLD (FFXI).

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

Very good point.

When playing PLD, you are constantly busy and having to monitor MP, HP, Hate and the actions of the mob. Playing WAR is rather straight forward and offloads a decent portion of its work to the WHM.

In regards to player workload and attention level, I've found PLD (FFXIV) to be more reminiscent of NIN (FFXI), where WAR (FFXIV) plays like PLD (FFXI).

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What no way pld in XI was not face roll lol you had to be constantly rotating skills correctly to get hate. If anything nin was watching timers/landing debuffs if you didn't have a rdm.

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Originally Posted by Firon

What no way pld in XI was not face roll lol you had to be constantly rotating skills correctly to get hate. If anything nin was watching timers/landing debuffs if you didn't have a rdm.

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Not completely analogous, but Nin was a far more intensive job overall. (until utsu timers/counters showed up)

Granted, I haven't played since WotG, so I have no idea what PLD or NIN are like now.

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

Not completely analogous, but Nin was a far more intensive job overall. (until utsu timers/counters showed up)

Granted, I haven't played since WotG, so I have no idea what PLD or NIN are like now.

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(o.O ) Pardon me, but I am still curious as to what situation a Paladin permits the inclusion of an extra DD instead of a White Mage. I have inquired several times now, but have not yet seen a reply.

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Originally Posted by SionDurant

+1

I agree with everything, although I didn't see MP as an issue. I think MP should be regenerated by a consistent means, maybe through blocks or some sort of self buff.

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Turning Outmaneuver into a stance is the only easy-fix I can come up with for this issue. (Increase blocking rate and restore mp from blocked hits)


And for dungeons, we should take an approach similar to TERA's and eliminate timers, completely forbid class changing in the instance have areas with a massive number of tiny mobs that needs to be AoEed (some immune to magic) and areas with few very hard hitting mobs that require real tanking and some with very hard defense and all of a sudden people will want to mix things up a little instead of piling up WARs, BRDs and BLMs.

SE should hire me.

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

Taking Ifrit as an example, most decent speed runs can kill him with roughly 7-8 Minutes with a WAR tank, and 10-12 with a PLD tank. A WAR might take 650-700 damage average from an auto attack, and PLD might take 600-650. That 50-100 damage might build up on WAR over time, but if your taking two or three more minutes on a fight with PLD, your taking 600-650 more damage every attack in the span of that extra time which would likely nullify or fall behind any extra damage WAR might have taken..

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This is very true.
However the "faster fight = safer fight" philosophy isn't strictly based on the idea of kill it before it kills you so you take less damage.

A big part of the "faster fight = safer fight" philosophy is that going with Ifrit like above for an example.
If a fight is taking you 4-5 minutes longer than it could, then there's 4 or 5 minutes more where something can go wrong, someone gets caught in cracks or plumes or whatever. In turn that makes things alot more dangerous.

If you say Ifrit does eruptions once a minute then your looking at dodging 7 eruptions vs dodging 12. With such factors as server lag / latency which is the safer option? try and dodge 7, or try and dodge 12?

The "faster fight = safer fight" is not just relevant to tanks and healers.

A 12 minute fight is 50% longer than an 8 minute fight. I suppose in some sense you could say that makes the 8 minute one 50% safer, although it wouldnt be entirely accurate but there is some logic in it.

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Originally Posted by Eagleheart

(o.O ) Pardon me, but I am still curious as to what situation a Paladin permits the inclusion of an extra DD instead of a White Mage. I have inquired several times now, but have not yet seen a reply.

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The only situation I see in using a PLD to remove a WHM from the equation, is to run BRD/Thaum. Or some kind of secondary healer/DD/buffer.

As others have pointed out. It's not like PLD can solely heal itself, so the other members are gonna need some heals. But at least it gives the opportunity for more close range melee, to join in on the fight. Instead of Ranged Burn everything.

Not trying to be a douche, but let me fix that for you Dzian

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A 12 minute fight is 33% longer than an 8 minute fight. I suppose in some sense you could say that makes the 8 minute one 33% more safe, although it wouldnt be entirely accurate but there is some logic in it.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Not trying to be a douche, but let me fix that for you Dzian

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Actually you're only half right, but then admiteddly so was I.

A 12 minute fight is 50% longer than an 8 minute fight. Given that a 12 minute fight is 150% of an 8 minute fight.
But I will conceed that an 8 minute fight is 33% safer than a 12. so yeah thanks for that correction :)

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Actually you're only half right, but then admiteddly so was I.

A 12 minute fight is 50% longer than an 8 minute fight. Given that a 12 minute fight is 150% of an 8 minute fight.
But I will conceed that an 8 minute fight is 33% safer than a 12. so yeah thanks for that correction :)

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This is why I like playing the tank and not a DD. There's too much math involved in being a DD. As a tank, I just throw on heavy armor, grab a shield and try not to die.

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Originally Posted by Alerith

This is why I like playing the tank and not a DD. There's too much math involved in being a DD. As a tank, I just throw on heavy armor, grab a shield and try not to die.

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o.o Such is the way with any job or class in an MMO. Figuring out what your statistics do, and where to min/max. DDs tend to gravitate towards the biggest numbers just like anyone else.

A question I've wondered at is whether or not to focus on capping MND (more feasible for a PLD than capping STR sans Darklight gear in my opinion) or to take STR as far as I can with MND a secondary concern.

I'm beginning some testing on that tonight. o.o

You know reading some of this stuff made me think...

It'd be kind of nice if, in addition to VIT/DEX affecting Shield Block Damage/Shield Block Rate, STR/MND would somehow be a secondary modifier for those shield traits respectively (if SE is hellbent on keeping STR/MND the primary stats for GLD/PLD rather than, yanno, changing it to STR/VIT which would probably make more sense).

I mean, every weapon has a primary/secondary modifier. Why not shield?

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Originally Posted by Firon

War drum: This skill needs the block req removed and make it cost 500tp also make it so the skill forces pld to the top of the hate list for 10 secs for anything it hits.

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If we're going to change War Drum into a taunt ability, I'd change it to single target, really shorten the cooldown and have Cover reset its cooldown if a Covered party member is struck by the mob.

Then I'd bring back Circle Slash on a 30-45 second cooldown with decent/good damage potential.

This way PLD gains two things: 1) a taunt ability which would then allow the developers to use taunting as an encounter mechanic (which can't currently be done because PLD doesn't have one) and 2) a good way to generate AoE enmity in a way that makes sense and works well with Flash because of the comparable cooldowns.

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It'd be kind of nice if, in addition to VIT/DEX affecting Shield Block Damage/Shield Block Rate, STR/MND would somehow be a secondary modifier for those shield traits respectively

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this definitely makes sense, and I agree.