New Alliance Raid is severely undertuned.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

My understanding is that (Hard) on a dungeon is not actually meant to say it's objectively a difficult version, but rather to differentiate between a dungeon and a later (higher-level) incarnation of it when we go back to the same spot; the "Hard" is a completely different dungeon which just happens to be set in the same spot as an earlier, lower-level one was. We go to the Wanderer's Palace twice, so there's "The Wanderer's Palace" and "The Wanderer's Palace (Hard)". We go to the Fractal Continuum twice, so we get "The Fractal Continuum" and "The Fractal Continuum (Hard)". Same for the arboretum, etc.

You could just as easily label them "II", like a sequel. "The Wanderer's Palace" and "The Wanderer's Palace II: the Mamool Ja Menace". "The Fractal Continuum" and "The Fractal Continuum II: Mandelbrot Threat". Whatever.

None of which is directly relevant to the alliance raid tuning, admittedly.

(...though, I actually kind of like "Mandelbrot Threat", and now I need to find somewhere to use that.)

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I meant that they were marginally harder than the previous dungeons that ended the expansion (regardless if they had the hard tag or not) i.e the likes of copperbell, sastasha and Pharos.

Alliance raids have never been intended to be hard though...

Even then, second and third tiers have always ramped up difficulty. It's so strange to me when people act as if Void Ark, Rabanastre and Copied Factory were ever like "Very Hard" or something cause they never were. Unless you're new to the game, but yeah: all of this is how it's always been.

This is an odd one for me as I definitely did notice a severe difference in my own performance from the first week to the second, but I think it's less about the mechanics being unusually easy and more about them being very readable once you know what to look out for. A lot of the difficulty in previous 24mans for me was from the mechanics not always being clear.

I don't really have much issue with the bosses dying quickly as I find "bloated HP sacks" to be just about the worst possible way to make something difficult. Not to mention that it doesn't really make anything more difficult, just more tedious. If I've avoided MechanicX 3 times, I can avoid it a 4th time or 5th time or whatever.

One thing I did notice is that there really aren't very many fast paced mechanics in this 24 man. The mechanics themselves were pretty solid but there were large enough gaps between the major ones in most cases such that it never felt like we were too pressured. I wouldn't be overly bothered if they tightened the mechanics up a bit in timing, either by having them closer together or having their cast bars be shorted or even just throwing in extra room wides in between the "big ones."

I have only done it a handful of times and haven't had a run yet where I haven't died, but that is just me becoming accustomed to the mechanics. I did find it fun and look forward to the rest of the series. They could be planning a rise in difficulty, most of the raids people are mentioning in comparison are not the first tier of their series. Personally Orbonne was my favorite before the adjustments and still is even though people like to avoid it. That is part of the argument against a higher difficulty for these raids too, savage focused players avoid it at all costs because as part of the roulette they only want the much easier and faster options, and the most casual players can have difficulty passing it and will avoid it as well. Orbonne has been a test of how much difficulty the players are wanting for a 24 man and it did not pass very well.

Isn't this the case for the first tier of alliance raids every time?

I remember a time when MMOs were much more difficult. Players were forced to compete for contested spawns to get special items and gear. Strong guilds would dominate servers and lock others out of content with respawn timers of a week. People would obsessively play for hours on end and get themselves sick...

Expansions would be released, and the vicious cycle would start again...

Then players cried and threatened to quit claiming it wasn't fair that they were paying for content then couldn't get to do... along came instanced dungeons and raids.

Soon, the game became trivial because everyone could get everything. There were no more bragging rights.

The only bragging I see in FFXIV is the Epic weapons which aren't difficult or challenging, they're just mindlessly time consuming and take the effort of a good group.

FFXIV is a terrific game that mixes the story telling that Final Fantasy has always been know for with just enough action and glitter to make it enjoyable. The players are what really make the game unique. Most of the people aren't the hardcore raid obsessed elitists. People THANK one another and Welcome one another.

I know people want more challenges and more exciting content. I just say, please be careful, not to ruin what makes this game special by having things others can't enjoy also. Should the absolute best items in the game be something any pickup group can obtain on their first try? probably not... but it also should not be something only highly coordinated guilds can do.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

Fixed that for you :).

All joking aside, Elden Ring and Souls games in general are only as difficult as you make it. Nothing stops you from cheesing the absolute hell out of the game with every tactic in the book, from peppering enemies with poison arrows or bullying them with Scarlet Rot, to skipping past fog gates and wailing on a defenseless boss until they die.

Even disregarding cheese, you can always just summon your spirits or other players to help take the edge off. God knows the Mimic Tear spirit puts in work when you need it.

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True. They are only as hard as you make them. I just find it funny when people say it isn't hard, after using a broken method.

Meh, its the first raid of the series. It was always gonna be the easiest one.

A partial list of all 24 mechanics groups or people fail on currently.
- ozma laser
-meteors
- ancient flare
-curtain call
- earth quake
- mega death
- death gaze

List goes on and on..all have one thing in common easy to deal with but people are lazy, clueless, or just not willing. Nothing more irking then wiping on a easy 24 man boss cause people cant learn one stupid brain dead instant kill mechanic..

Once you learn the fight, things get easier, thats kind of how it works.

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Originally Posted by DuskTS

I don't get this forum obsession with turning every content into savage.
Just go play Elden Ring if you want to stress your hair out over pixels.
If you don't find FFXIV engaging enough go do Ultimate like Yoshi-P says.

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I sincerely hope that's sarcastic.

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Originally Posted by SargeTheSeagull

I sincerely hope that's sarcastic.

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Knowing the people that play this game. I doubt it. They will probably tell people to quit next.

That being said, this was the first alliance raid that I did week one, where the group did not wipe at all.

Did they nerf it or something? I was in there on the second day of release and people were getting annihilated.

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Originally Posted by DuskTS

I don't get this forum obsession with turning every content into savage.
Just go play Elden Ring if you want to stress your hair out over pixels.
If you don't find FFXIV engaging enough go do Ultimate like Yoshi-P says.

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Can you people stop using that as a scape goat
There is a difference between mind numbingly boring easy raids
and ultimate savage super hardcore constant death trains
We want the middle ground so the fights are more than just oo pretty particles

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Originally Posted by Darthgummibear

Did they nerf it or something? I was in there on the second day of release and people were getting annihilated.

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Nah. Most people are learning the mechanics. The mechanics themselves aren't difficult to deal with. They're just different from what we're used to seeing. Even so, despite being easy, the mechanics we were presented with in Aglaia are a lot of fun to deal with. Haven't enjoyed an Alliance raid like this since Syrcus Tower was first released. It had a "feel good" vibe. Aglaia has the same vibe, at least for me.

The raid has a lot of player specific “do or die” mechanics. Which means as people learn the mechanics less will die and less wipes will occur. And since they’re player specific, you don’t have the problem of others failing mechanics having a direct impact on you. Think the difference between Mustadios sniper and Thundergods stack in towers or cause a raid wide.

It was my first time doing the new alliance raid, and one of the players, said they would happily explain some of the mechanics, but offered to withhold the information so we could learn and experience things on our own.

People went in with the expectation that we could and very likely would die and wipe and have to start again.

The first boss, no problem, a handful of people died... it was new and exciting for most of the group because there were so many first timers.

The fight where your on the palm of the hand was more challenging. run towards or run down one of the fingers (and not be off to the side lest you plummet), I think we did wipe on very close to the end of the fight. There was a significant amount of death.

Things went really well overall and people laughed, no one got angry, no one rage quit. No one was condescending.

I don't know what people consider easy or what anyone else's feelings are for risk vs reward, but I thought it was fun, with rewards adequate for the time and effort.

Just an aside. 24-man content usually peaks 2nd or third.

However, I’d like to point out that literally every raid gets dumpstered, on unless it’s Mhach or Orbonne, at first in terms of opinions. I still hate Rabanastre but the collective opinion seems to have swung the other way, and it seems that all of the complaining of bosses being annoyingly designed, way too much HP, and only one genuinely fun fight, seems to be absolutely reverse of that. (Also Ridoranna did too because of the greed-only alliance raid, never forget that.) and the Nier ones got that way because they weren’t the Ivalice ones.

Strict ilvl band on more casual content would make them more consistent to experience, but you also cannot really do that, because people have strong feelings about the earned power of better gear.
I remember threads about how people with BiS lament how it rarely matters in the end.

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

Not sure where you are getting not many people playing deep dungeon? As for only doing the first 30 floors (palace) that was just for speed levelling jobs lots finished it, as you needed to so you got your weapon. As for higher floors that was only there for a challenge 101+ on deep dungeon and 31 plus on heaven on high. Everything worked as intended.

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hey np be delusional, that will help things.

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

Alliance raids have never been intended to be hard though...

Even then, second and third tiers have always ramped up difficulty. It's so strange to me when people act as if Void Ark, Rabanastre and Copied Factory were ever like "Very Hard" or something cause they never were. Unless you're new to the game, but yeah: all of this is how it's always been.

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hard like extremes? never. at last not so easy that you don't even hot LB3? this is a first. like tell me how its ok that you can 1 party out of 3 kill any boss there.

Have to agree, I don't remember raids being such a smooth ride by week 2.

I expected to die at least once per fight and to have at least wiped at least one boss fight and at the very least slug it out with one of the bosses (usually the first or third one) with lb3 maxing out.

I died only once

We didn't wipe once.

We didn't get to use lb3 until final boss.

Week 1 content, btw.

one big problem the defenders of this easy mode forget is this a content SE expect people to run for the rest of the expansion.

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Originally Posted by SamsaraTrickstar

one big problem the defenders of this easy mode forget is this a content SE expect people to run for the rest of the expansion.

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Surely, if it was longer, people would run it for fun whereas now they just run it for their loot. Yes, that's sarcasm. One big problem the defenders of this hard more forget is that people don't play for difficulty, they play for fun.

Getting it longer won't make it more fun, getting it harder may, but at the cost of more people finding it a bore.

Why on earth would you want normal alliance raids to be hard, except for gatekeeping purpose ? So you have fun as savage/ultimate raiders ? Alliance raids have always been that simple, and the mere fact Rabanastre was most notably known for his difficulty related to a boss that asks you "find x in 5 + x = 6" is enough to say that this community as a whole does not need harder bosses.

HW's Alliance raids have always been a walk in the park, except for the third one that sometimes got people killed, but it's only recently that Diabolos became a hard boss, for some reason. If you want savage alliance raids, ask for that, but please, don't turn our 40-50 minutes weekly bore to a 60-70 minutes weekly bore.

And don't get me wrong, I love the new alliance raid, and would love a savage version. But harder normal mode is just useless and a diminished QoL.

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Originally Posted by SamsaraTrickstar

one big problem the defenders of this easy mode forget is this a content SE expect people to run for the rest of the expansion.

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It is not meant to be “current” content for the entire expansion, though. It is meant to be content targeted for a gear level that is only going to be current for a couple more months. Then we’ll be on to patch 6.2, a new raid tier, and an entire new set of combat gear, likely ranging from i610 to i630.

If they made something that would be a major challenge for the *entire expansion*, it would need to be a challenge in, say, i660 gear.

(Yes, we have ilevel sync. Ask the Labyrinth of the Ancients or Syrcus Tower how well that works consistently to maintain the challenge level. Has anyone actually seen the platform mechanics in Glasya Labolas in, say, the current geological era?)

As I said, I actually do think this particular raid might be a bit undertuned. But let’s not try to overcorrect here.

Anything else aside, people who raid savage like to see their gear improvements make numbers get noticeably bigger. If things are to be accessible to folks who aren’t doing savage, AND people doing savage want their raid gear to feel like it is a meaningful upgrade (as opposed to just “hey, now you can dye the gear!”), then the upper end of a gear tier is to some extent always going to trivialize content within that gear tier that isn’t targeted specifically at savage raiders.

They'll never get the balancing perfect but people need to take a step back and really think who the odd patch content is dedicated toward. It isn't dedicated to those of us that can clear Savage or higher, it's meant for all of us to do once and enjoy the story, but the people who need to keep farming it either do it for glam pieces, or need to upgrade things. I have no reason to go into the AR unless I want to gear an alt quickly, it isn't for me, and even on that it just is silly unless it's the tomestone upgrade coin, all the non-tomestone stuff if gonna be Savage for me anyway. It's for people that clearly aren't able to commit to doing Savage, be that their work hours, anxiety, or in just some cases they feel it's a lot more of a chore than it actually is.

So think on that, it's dedicated for people that clearly aren't doing Savage. It can't be overbearingly difficult or it will alienate them, by being simple it only alienates the people who that should not be their endgame of content. Meaning the rewards from it are not actual upgrades, or that they find it challenging. For those of us who this is a curbstomp, we are meant to do it once and be finished. For the people who have to farm it, they don't want it to be an agonizing process. As far as I'm concerned I did it once and got my story development. That's all there is to it for me.

Bottom line, this is content that is meant to be easy. At times they miss the mark and make it too easy, or overshoot it and make it too agonizing and you end up with things like Cid. When it comes to that, Square wants to present a challenge to some sure, but they aren't going to try and make a challenge that pisses off the players that this is meant to be for where they don't want to do it every week. If you expected this to be like the newest Extreme or around that ballpark or even just the first trial of Endwalker on Extreme, you're clearly not understanding who this content fully is for. Yes, it is for everyone because of the story, but after that story what point do you have doing it? Glamour, and the coin. Do you really want to anger the people who this is their content to consume because it's lightweight but rewarding as in they actually need this stuff just so you can feel like it was harder the next week?

Furthermore, there's a large exodus of WoW players from last year. To those, this is their first time probably dealing with relevant content. Square is probably softballing them to find out what they're okay with, as they've always done in the past. Things casually ramped up, they didn't stay on a specific level. People got used to something, Square slightly upped the challenge on them. Not enough to spark a huge culture shock, but gradually enough that players didn't notice it but are now a lot more capable now than they were before. I say this as someone who actually started the game in late Heavensward but wasn't even max level until late Stormblood. At the end of Shadowbringers which was the first expansion I actually experienced from the start I took a careful note on how while it didn't feel like I was better at the game, I was very quickly able to identify things and react to them a lot better. I got better, but I didn't notice it because it wasn't an immediate thing. It happened over time. As such challenges have gradually gotten more difficult too, look at Warrior of Light compared to I dunno, Thordan. There's a lot more going on, but people are able to handle these things. Whereas if you threw Warrior of Light into Heavensward with how many mechanics it has, you'd cause a complete meltdown on the playerbase if they were expected to do that trial. Or an easier one since both serve the same purpose- Ravana and Titania. If you switched the two, people doing Titania when they're only as acclimated as you should be by Ravana it would be a huge sucker punch. A wakeup call for sure, but a big enough one that you would alienate people because they'd feel the game is expecting too much of them too fast. This was one issue that befell WoW, Square is keenly aware of that. Fights in WoW went from decently doable for most people to being nightmares that outright necessitated addons holding your hand for most people because Blizzard kept trying to make fights more convoluted to say "Look how hard our PvE is!" when instead of difficulty, they got overbearing and as a result their raid participation if you exclude LFR sunk like a rock. Then because of that the common gripe from casuals on WoW is feeling the game is solely catered to Mythic Raiders so they just don't engage with raiding unless it's LFR. If you never played WoW, LFR is even easier than our Alliance Raids despite being the same concept.

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Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

Surely, if it was longer, people would run it for fun whereas now they just run it for their loot. Yes, that's sarcasm. One big problem the defenders of this hard more forget is that people don't play for difficulty, they play for fun.

Getting it longer won't make it more fun, getting it harder may, but at the cost of more people finding it a bore.

Why on earth would you want normal alliance raids to be hard, except for gatekeeping purpose ? So you have fun as savage/ultimate raiders ? Alliance raids have always been that simple, and the mere fact Rabanastre was most notably known for his difficulty related to a boss that asks you "find x in 5 + x = 6" is enough to say that this community as a whole does not need harder bosses.

HW's Alliance raids have always been a walk in the park, except for the third one that sometimes got people killed, but it's only recently that Diabolos became a hard boss, for some reason. If you want savage alliance raids, ask for that, but please, don't turn our 40-50 minutes weekly bore to a 60-70 minutes weekly bore.

And don't get me wrong, I love the new alliance raid, and would love a savage version. But harder normal mode is just useless and a diminished QoL.

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ye people play for fun. when content is so boring the most hard thing is to no fall asleep then its not so fun. now i need to run it as the glams are really good and for the upgrades. but at this point it more of i forced to run it over i want to run it. i want it to be as hard as older ones not more . as it stands now its so easy we don't even hit LB3.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

It is not meant to be “current” content for the entire expansion, though. It is meant to be content targeted for a gear level that is only going to be current for a couple more months. Then we’ll be on to patch 6.2, a new raid tier, and an entire new set of combat gear, likely ranging from i610 to i630.

If they made something that would be a major challenge for the *entire expansion*, it would need to be a challenge in, say, i660 gear.

(Yes, we have ilevel sync. Ask the Labyrinth of the Ancients or Syrcus Tower how well that works consistently to maintain the challenge level. Has anyone actually seen the platform mechanics in Glasya Labolas in, say, the current geological era?)

As I said, I actually do think this particular raid might be a bit undertuned. But let’s not try to overcorrect here.

Anything else aside, people who raid savage like to see their gear improvements make numbers get noticeably bigger. If things are to be accessible to folks who aren’t doing savage, AND people doing savage want their raid gear to feel like it is a meaningful upgrade (as opposed to just “hey, now you can dye the gear!”), then the upper end of a gear tier is to some extent always going to trivialize content within that gear tier that isn’t targeted specifically at savage raiders.

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only we need to run it for upgrade tokens? for the 6.2 tome gear you need 2 of them. one from the first raid and one form the second.

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Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

Surely, if it was longer, people would run it for fun whereas now they just run it for their loot. Yes, that's sarcasm. One big problem the defenders of this hard more forget is that people don't play for difficulty, they play for fun.

Getting it longer won't make it more fun, getting it harder may, but at the cost of more people finding it a bore.

Why on earth would you want normal alliance raids to be hard, except for gatekeeping purpose ? So you have fun as savage/ultimate raiders ? Alliance raids have always been that simple, and the mere fact Rabanastre was most notably known for his difficulty related to a boss that asks you "find x in 5 + x = 6" is enough to say that this community as a whole does not need harder bosses.

HW's Alliance raids have always been a walk in the park, except for the third one that sometimes got people killed, but it's only recently that Diabolos became a hard boss, for some reason. If you want savage alliance raids, ask for that, but please, don't turn our 40-50 minutes weekly bore to a 60-70 minutes weekly bore.

And don't get me wrong, I love the new alliance raid, and would love a savage version. But harder normal mode is just useless and a diminished QoL.

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I would expect them to have some sort of challenge as they are post game content. How many games have you played where the post game content is as easy or easier than the main story content?
Also HW raids were pretty hard when they were released. Diablos did not recently get hard, groups wiped on him all the time as well as the boss before him. Heavensward had the highest stat jump of any expansion so they became a walk in the park over time due to this stat jump. So IMO making these raids easier is a diminished QoL. I would probably go as far to say that Lab was harder on release than this was.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

It is not meant to be “current” content for the entire expansion, though. It is meant to be content targeted for a gear level that is only going to be current for a couple more months. Then we’ll be on to patch 6.2, a new raid tier, and an entire new set of combat gear, likely ranging from i610 to i630.

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This is wrong, unless they change something in future patches which typically doesn't happen. We will have to run this for the rest of the expansion for tokens to upgrade gear, unless you do the savage content for the same tokens.

Seems like they either need to cap Ilvl off making some gear progression pointless or introduce one shot mechanics to sate people.
The harder the fight, the longer the fight, the more room for error and wipes due to players who may not be as good. The more complaining you'll do, and you'll still need to deal with the rng nature of drops.

That may sound like fun to some but not to me.

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Originally Posted by PangTong

Boss HP is low, they seem to be tuned on the assumption that some portion of the raid will be dead at all times (like on day 1) but as soon as you get a group that's done this before, they fall over super fast. This is not premades either, this is just with the average DF group.

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Definitely agree with this. If I had to guess, I would suspect this has something to do with people always complaining about running things over and over again, so it was made faster. But I would like to at least see all the mechanics while it's relatively new - in particular Azeyma loses pretty much all of her potential difficulty by not reaching the more complicated wind patterns.

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Originally Posted by PangTong

Mechanics come out extremely slowly and one at a time. This not only gives you ages to react but reduces the total number of mechanics you see in the fight. For example Rhalgr's punch mechanic takes like 30 seconds to resolve start to finish including the cast times and various animations.

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I think this is fine, because I don't hold much value in things being difficult to react in time contributing to difficulty. FFXIV isn't an action game, and there's a massive amount of latency for a lot of people that make this unevenly difficult. Basically, if things are too easy to dodge in time, rather than reducing the time available to perform the dodge, I'd take a complexity increase in figuring out where is safe.

I do think this is an interesting point though, because I think the perception of them being slow and one at a time is related to your first point about the bosses dying too quickly. In a lot of cases we're only seeing the "demonstration" version of patterns, and then the boss is dead before they get to do the overlapping versions. Rhalgr's punch, to continue the example, eventually requires you to examine most of the fingers, check which side is safe from a fist portal, and check the fingers a second time for the little orbs. It's not too slow for those overlapping mechanisms, but I only even saw them all at once the first day.

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Originally Posted by PangTong

With the exception of certain one-shot mechanics like stuff that knocks you off the platform, almost all mechanics in the raid are very survivable if you fail them. Many can be ignored if you don't know how to resolve them as they don't do threatening damage.

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I don't see this at all. I still see most non-tanks taking huge damage from everything that's avoidable, and this has been consistent since 6.0 and the stat "squish" changes. I wonder if you're just seeing more healers up than usual to undo it or something.

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Originally Posted by PangTong

There are almost no mechanics which require group coordination/performance, almost all are individual responsibility, meaning it's extremely hard to have a full wipe as long as at least one tank and one rezzer knows what they're doing, as there are no mechanics which they need the other people alive for. They can just keep fighting and rezzing indefinitely. Even on day 1, I had a pull where about 20 people were dead on Azeyma, two of the alliances released assuming it would be a wipe, and the remaining alliance just took the boss down by themselves.

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I'm mixed on this one, probably because I think it can be broken down further into different categories of things that this raid is lacking compared to previous ones.

On one hand, you have the fights people historically failed the most in the duty finder - Scylla, Ozma, Cid, etc. The main reason these seemed so much more difficult is that they had patterns that called out a certain number of players and told them "do this or everyone dies." In that moment, those randomly selected players weren't 1/24 of the contribution easily made up by more experienced or skilled players, they were 1/6 or more and if they didn't know what to do they could cause a wipe. I don't really care for these because I feel they undermine the purpose alliance raids serve in the available content in FFXIV. If you want something where everyone has to pull their weight and know what to do and it's immediately obvious when one person gets everyone else killed, there's Extreme and Savage with only eight people. Alliance raids have their own niche where individual contribution is not as important, and I'm glad to not see any of these types of things so far on this set.

But on the other, you have the situations you've described where the entire alliance just isn't needed to continue, and I feel that also undermines the difference in having content for 24 people. Both in cases where there just aren't enough damage splits or mechanics that target a minimum number of players, and where there really aren't any that force the individual full parties to do something separately. I definitely miss the things older alliance raids used to do where they'd force each party to fight their own target, or split them up into separate areas, especially if they had different tasks to perform in each. Nald'thal is the only one who does anything like it and it just completely pales in comparison to prior forms this has taken. I don't even think this has much to do with difficulty or challenge so much as just "fun that can be had with alliance raids and not really anywhere else" because of the three-party makeup.



Definitely disagree with the other replies about further hindering gear though. FFXIV is barely an RPG as it is, and we don't need our stats even further homogenized than they already are in most things across the board. Buffing the content itself is much more preferable.

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Originally Posted by DuskTS

I don't get this forum obsession with turning every content into savage.
Just go play Elden Ring if you want to stress your hair out over pixels.
If you don't find FFXIV engaging enough go do Ultimate like Yoshi-P says.

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Uh, increasing their HP wouldn't turn it into Savage lol.

I do think it's a problem tho, there's a lot of story fights where people don't even get to see all of the mechanics and the best and most hype parts of the songs don't even get to start because the boss dies too fast.
You have a much better experience with it on day 1, it kinda sucks that people who aren't playing everything on day 1 end up having a subpar and less hype experience in comparison.

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Originally Posted by Recon1o6

Elden ring isn't that hard. Its mostly preparation and patience

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I've beaten Elden Ring twice, both times without any bullshit cheese tactics.
And beaten all of the others so many times I've lost count I've probably spent thousands of hours in the Souls series.

And no Elden Ring is way too hard, not in the way people say that the Souls games are hard but because they're complete bullshit.
Early game there's some of it but nothing you haven't seen before in Souls games ( delayed attacks and super aggressive bosses that belongs more in Sekiro + double bosses and tons of rly aggressive adds with the boss etc ).
But late mid to late game the game kinda just derails into absurdity, Joseph Anderson uploaded his review of the game about two weeks ago and I think he went into quite well.
The quality of the boss design in Elden Ring is pretty awful and it has nothing to do with '' git gud '', and just because overpowered and completely imbalanced weapons and builds exist doesn't change that they're poorly designed.

What made past Souls games great was that the game was fair but punishing, Elden Ring is just unfair and even more punishing the bosses blatantly cheat and have infinite stamina.
I am not saying Elden Ring is a bad game I personally loved it, but I also hated the boss design and thought it was the worst in the series which is quite unfortunate for a Souls game.
I guess one could make the argument that it's easy if you use completely broken and overpowered weapons ( which kinda just speaks for the poor balance not exactly something to praise the devs for, it's even worse in PvP too ).
But I think at least that it's better to judge the game on how it plays without abusing some of the series most broken weapons, and yeah in that regard the game is absurdly unfair and poorly designed.

Honestly why do you want the raid to be more difficult/longer than it has to be. You will maybe enjoy the slightly higher difficulty in the beginning a few times but in the long run all of you will be greatfull if they can just grab their weekly loot and will be out there as soon as possible. Every Dungeon will become boring if you do it a over and over again and than even the hardcore players will be thankfull if they dont have to deal with it longer than necessary.

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Originally Posted by Missbone

Honestly why do you want the raid to be more difficult/longer than it has to be. You will maybe enjoy the slightly higher difficulty in the beginning a few times but in the long run all of you will be greatfull if they can just grab their weekly loot and will be out there as soon as possible. Every Dungeon will become boring if you do it a over and over again and than even the hardcore players will be thankfull if they dont have to deal with it longer than necessary.

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There needs to be some kind of balance imo, and I think it's too low currently.
I mean I do stuff for fun too not just to get my weekly I think that's a bit of a strange reason to do something in a sense, at that point I almost question whether someone even enjoys the game they're playing.
Imo I don't rly find things enjoyable when they're over too quickly, and it's also not fun for people who are there for the first time either especially not in older content.

Especially in dungeons like at the end of SHB, my brain wasn't even engaged anymore and then I am not having fun.
I enjoy the gameplay but it often feels like it's over too quickly and barely gets going.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Uh, increasing their HP wouldn't turn it into Savage lol.

I do think it's a problem tho, there's a lot of story fights where people don't even get to see all of the mechanics and the best and most hype parts of the songs don't even get to start because the boss dies too fast.
You have a much better experience with it on day 1, it kinda sucks that people who aren't playing everything on day 1 end up having a subpar and less hype experience in comparison.





I've beaten Elden Ring twice, both times without any bullshit cheese tactics.
And beaten all of the others so many times I've lost count I've probably spent thousands of hours in the Souls series.

And no Elden Ring is way too hard, not in the way people say that the Souls games are hard but because they're complete bullshit.
Early game there's some of it but nothing you haven't seen before in Souls games ( delayed attacks and super aggressive bosses that belongs more in Sekiro + double bosses and tons of rly aggressive adds with the boss etc ).
But late mid to late game the game kinda just derails into absurdity, Joseph Anderson uploaded his review of the game about two weeks ago and I think he went into quite well.
The quality of the boss design in Elden Ring is pretty awful and it has nothing to do with '' git gud '', and just because overpowered and completely imbalanced weapons and builds exist doesn't change that they're poorly designed.

What made past Souls games great was that the game was fair but punishing, Elden Ring is just unfair and even more punishing the bosses blatantly cheat and have infinite stamina.
I am not saying Elden Ring is a bad game I personally loved it, but I also hated the boss design and thought it was the worst in the series which is quite unfortunate for a Souls game.
I guess one could make the argument that it's easy if you use completely broken and overpowered weapons ( which kinda just speaks for the poor balance not exactly something to praise the devs for, it's even worse in PvP too ).
But I think at least that it's better to judge the game on how it plays without abusing some of the series most broken weapons, and yeah in that regard the game is absurdly unfair and poorly designed.

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Eh, the only things I'd consider blatantly unfair would be the dual/triple bosses. Triple Scarlet Rot Crystalians with no poise obliterating hammer had me feeling some type of way. And double Crucible Knight? Don't even get me started. Definitely a far cry from Ornstein and Smough or the Twin Princes.

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Originally Posted by Missbone

Honestly why do you want the raid to be more difficult/longer than it has to be. You will maybe enjoy the slightly higher difficulty in the beginning a few times but in the long run all of you will be greatfull if they can just grab their weekly loot and will be out there as soon as possible. Every Dungeon will become boring if you do it a over and over again and than even the hardcore players will be thankfull if they dont have to deal with it longer than necessary.

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we want a raid not a sleeping run

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Originally Posted by SamsaraTrickstar

ye people play for fun. when content is so boring the most hard thing is to no fall asleep then its not so fun.

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Not falling asleep for 70 minutes is more boring that not falling asleep for 50 minutes, don't you think ?

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now i need to run it as the glams are really good and for the upgrades. but at this point it more of i forced to run it over i want to run it. i want it to be as hard as older ones not more . as it stands now its so easy we don't even hit LB3.

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Imagine asking for harder content when you're so far behind that you haven't killed P3S after 3 months, and thus, need an alliance raid to upgrade your left pieces.

Not killing P3S in 3 months is alright... but complaining about the game being too easy yet failing or not willing to play actually harder content... yikes.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

I would expect them to have some sort of challenge as they are post game content. How many games have you played where the post game content is as easy or easier than the main story content?

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Except that's just not true. Mechanics for this are harder than for main story content, since there are a lots of mechanics that have no visible AoEs until 0.5s before it actually deals damage. The only reason it seems simple and boss seem to last a short time is because there are people that are ilvl 600 and they burst bosses. But yes : mechanics in alliance raids are harder than in main story content, and the fact you can ignore them by being overgeared (which you can't be in main story content, due to the sync hitting harder) is unrelated.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

Also HW raids were pretty hard when they were released. Diablos did not recently get hard, groups wiped on him all the time as well as the boss before him. Heavensward had the highest stat jump of any expansion so they became a walk in the park over time due to this stat jump. So IMO making these raids easier is a diminished QoL. I would probably go as far to say that Lab was harder on release than this was.

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You're either delusional or have bad memory. Back then, I was actually an advocate for harder alliance raids, because I did find everything to be way too simple. It's pretty hard to say that lab is harder than anything, when you know back then, four tanks had to be afk and click on a tower for the whole behemoth fight, one had to stay behind on phlegethon fight for tanking the claws, and so on.

And no, I farmed Diabolos for days to get some glamour, I almost never wiped in 3.5, but nowadays in alliance raid roulette, it's rare that there isn't at least two wipes in this raid, because people don't know the strat or don't bother acting accordingly.

Alliance raids have always been easy. I don't blame you for not remembering, nostalgia is powerful, but please don't be delusional, alliance raids, as well as normal raids, are ever harder than last expansion.

I don't understand the assumption that the moment someone asks things to be tuned a bit better that they are immediately a Savage/Ultimate raider and want to gatekeep. Or that they want everything to be at Savage difficulty, which not even savage is anymore which is its own separate issue. I personally don't bother with Savage or Ultimate, I don't want to fight the same boss for hours wiping constantly but at the same time I don't want to be able to beat said boss with half the alliance having died at some point with death debuffs and vuln debuffs galore and still not even generate a single LB3 on week 2. Hells, I'm not even in full i590 yet. I just want to be able to have a nice time where I can see all of the boss's mechanics and use LB3s while the content is still current, and not be able to pull up Netflix on my second monitor and watch that while just numbly following to victory.

I just want the bosses to have more HP so that they get to showcase all of their mechanics.

The way some of the 24 mans melt just isn't respectful to the original design intentions of the content, and can be very underwhelming for new players and old players alike.

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Originally Posted by Vrankyl

I don't understand the assumption that the moment someone asks things to be tuned a bit better that they are immediately a Savage/Ultimate raider and want to gatekeep. Or that they want everything to be at Savage difficulty, which not even savage is anymore which is its own separate issue. I personally don't bother with Savage or Ultimate, I don't want to fight the same boss for hours wiping constantly but at the same time I don't want to be able to beat said boss with half the alliance having died at some point with death debuffs and vuln debuffs galore and still not even generate a single LB3 on week 2. Hells, I'm not even in full i590 yet. I just want to be able to have a nice time where I can see all of the boss's mechanics and use LB3s while the content is still current, and not be able to pull up Netflix on my second monitor and watch that while just numbly following to victory.

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Yeah. I think the difficulty (the actual difficulty level) for the latest raid is fine. The bosses just need a bit more HP. I don't think that is an unreasonable request. lol All it does it let the bosses do the mechanics they are already doing a bit longer.