Compiled SAM threads against 6.1 changes / Kaiten removal

Thank you for the compilation.

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Originally Posted by Edweena

And yeah Tenka Goken is a real bite in the ass since they just introduced an option for actions to automatically acquire a target when using said actions, which would have been great for the "problem" of Tenka Goken previously requiring a target as it was a cone AOE.
Now we're stuck running into an intersection being asked to stand in place and hope we don't get run over by everything going on, instead of safely casting from the sidewalk of the cone aoe previously, all for the sake of "smoothing it out" and "not requiring a target" which is apparently good?

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I've said it before and I'll say it again; the changes to SAM in this patch feel half-baked at best. None of the reasoning makes sense, and this makes me think that whoever was responsible for it is either a rank newbie or otherwise completely disconnected from any actual gameplay involving SAM. A total theorycrafter who did the equivalent of looking at spreadsheets and making decisions by committee without actually trying the changes in a real game environment, much less considering how actual SAM players would feel.

Neither is a good look. I could forgive a complete newbie; roll back the changes, chalk it up to experience and make sure the newbie knows to get real experience with a job before they go mucking about with it. Still shouldn't have been approved for patch release by the higher-ups though. If it's the other one though? Then there is a dire need for an internal audit of the job balance team to ensure that decisions are being made with regards to how actual gameplay feels instead of simply through this spreadsheet/paint by numbers approach.

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Originally Posted by Quor

I've said it before and I'll say it again; the changes to SAM in this patch feel half-baked at best. None of the reasoning makes sense, and this makes me think that whoever was responsible for it is either a rank newbie or otherwise completely disconnected from any actual gameplay involving SAM. A total theorycrafter who did the equivalent of looking at spreadsheets and making decisions by committee without actually trying the changes in a real game environment, much less considering how actual SAM players would feel.

Neither is a good look. I could forgive a complete newbie; roll back the changes, chalk it up to experience and make sure the newbie knows to get real experience with a job before they go mucking about with it. Still shouldn't have been approved for patch release by the higher-ups though. If it's the other one though? Then there is a dire need for an internal audit of the job balance team to ensure that decisions are being made with regards to how actual gameplay feels instead of simply through this spreadsheet/paint by numbers approach.

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At this point I'm convinced it's a decision for some out of touch future proofing, that should be saved for 6.5/7.0

If they wanted to remove Kaiten and make larger overall changes, they should have saved Kaiten's removal for 6.5, and give us the new stuff shortly after in 7.0 while introducing real QOL and skill floor solutions (during 6.1-6.4) like the ones I've suggested.
Warm us up to change like they did with QOL changes on Monk throughout SHB, then make real changes at the next expansion. No one would be unhappy for the early patch cycles, and it would build up trust for a change like Kaiten's removal.
As it is currently it's hard to trust the direction of Samurai's design as it clearly offers nothing in place of 6.0 (every "positive" change is contentious from potencies, crit synergy, to tenka goken, nothing offers a pure improvement in place of what we had before).

Going potentially 5 patch cycles without Kaiten (which is unlikely imo due to feedback) aka 2 years after many locked Samurai in as their main during the 6.0 cycle is beyond ridiculous.
Oh and yes please revert 6.1 Samurai changes thank you.

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Originally Posted by Edweena

Merge Shoha 1 & 2, give it the Spirits Within is upgraded into Expiacion like they did with Paladin at the start of EW. An easy solution that already exists.

Have ikishoten turn into Ogi Namikiri upon execution, like High Jump into Mirage Dive introduced THIS PATCH, or the Gnashing Fang combo introduced at the start of EW. Another easy solution that ALREADY EXISTS.

Lots of people jump right onto merging Hissatu: Guren / Senei which is good, but....
https://i.imgur.com/wFsE734.jpeg
Is just a better solution (removes 2 buttons instead of 1, while we retain both abilities as well) since Warrior has done exactly this with Fell Cleave into Inner Chaos (the equivalent 1 target spender of shinten / senei) / Decimate into Chaotic Cyclone (another equivalent 3+= target spender that can be compared to kyuten / guren) while under the effects of Nascent Chaos, a buff granted along many other things when using Inner Release. They even have their own fucking Ogi Namikiri tied to the CD, PRIMAL REND.
SE just gave us Inner Release but somehow WORSE since we have the Ogi Namikiri being tied to Ikishoten (Like Primal Rend needing to be tied to Inner Release you see what I mean?) but miss out on saving two buttons as Guren and Senei insist on being their own CD for literally no reason.
It's been designed to be outdated for two expansions now (as someone who started in SHB I assume Inner Release was a SHB ability) and if they somehow decide to merge Guren and Senei instead I'll be frankly dissapointed since it's such a lazy effort, especially when their fellow job designers already have offered a solution to the same problems.

Oh and this Guren and Senei change would actually reduce the skill floor btw, since it removes the possibility for Guren and Senei to drift as CD's, which is ONLY a skill floor issue, and is not going to affect those at the ceiling since well, reducing drifting is not a skill attained at the ceiling.

It's so frustrating looking at other jobs in the same game and how they fixed issues before they even appeared like holy shit.

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Inner Release is the 70 capstone ability from Stormblood. Back then, it was you could use beast gauge actions for free for 10 seconds and they were all direct crits.

ShB changed nothing about it and only gave them the new healing in Nascent Flash and the inner chaos and chaotic cyclone upgrades.

But you are completely right in that current SAM tools look like a clunky WAR kit. Everything is there in a similar way but remains separated.

I'm glad I'm not the only one seeing that and suggesting consolidating them into a similar manner for further additions to be made.

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Originally Posted by xAFROx

Inner Release is the 70 capstone ability from Stormblood. Back then, it was you could use beast gauge actions for free for 10 seconds and they were all direct crits.

ShB changed nothing about it and only gave them the new healing in Nascent Flash and the inner chaos and chaotic cyclone upgrades.

But you are completely right in that current SAM tools look like a clunky WAR kit. Everything is there in a similar way but remains separated.

I'm glad I'm not the only one seeing that and suggesting consolidating them into a similar manner for further additions to be made.

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Oh god so we've been living with it for THREE EXPANSIONS?
It's not even a change that homogenizes, it's just QOL ;=;
I'm almost as distressed about it as I am about kaiten lol.

Edit as I realize the Inner Chaos and Chaotic Cyclone variants were added in SHB oopsy so yeah only TWO Expansions but still other points still stand.

Bump so SE can't think that if just ignore the issue, it'll slowly die.

Important to keep this on the front page. Lots more discussion recently, including the notable lack of SAM's in the new Ultimate fight, as well as the general job balance issue of certain jobs being major boons in the Ultimate compared to others.

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Originally Posted by Quor

Lots more discussion recently, including the notable lack of SAM's in the new Ultimate fight, as well as the general job balance issue of certain jobs being major boons in the Ultimate compared to others.

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Not only the notable lack of samurai in the new Ultimate, but also a suspiciously high amount of monks. HMM...

I think you have the right of it. From what I've read on this, it sounds like Kaiten was difficult for them to design around, but there isn't a lot of detail on why exactly. If you look at these changes through that lens, it makes sense that a primary goal of these changes was to remove Kaiten. I suspect that the devs locked in on removing Kaiten early in the process and that explains why they did not do some of the button merging ideas players have suggested as alternatives that would be more aimed at reducing button bloat. Essentially, button bloat was not the problem the devs were trying to solve.

What I'm unclear on is what the nature of their "restriction" with Kaiten was. Was it just causing problems for patch to patch balancing or was more of a difficulty when trying to make changes for major expansions (like adding new actions). If it was the latter, I 100% agree that they should have waited until 7.0 to remove Kaiten.

Ultimately, my biggest problem with the changes is that the rotation feels hollow now. Without something else to spend Kenki on we're left just spamming Shinten and Kenki may as well not even exist anymore, and that just isn't very fun. I think I'd be more ok with the changes if they added something else to spend Kenki on that would impact the rotation in a meaningful way.


A translated quote from Yoshi P. from the FFXIV Reddit Discord Translation\Live Letter Channel (https://discord.gg/ffxiv):
"...and on Kaiten getting removed we did that because we want to do away having to be restricted by that move"

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Originally Posted by Silnoa

I think you have the right of it. From what I've read on this, it sounds like Kaiten was difficult for them to design around, but there isn't a lot of detail on why exactly.

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I agree. They did all of it to solve the problem of " Absolutely Nothing ".

• They did not fix imaginary Button Bloat issues
• They did not fix imaginary Action Bloat issues
• Kaiten removal was unneccary to achieve auto-crits
• Heck Kaiten could have been the reason to achieve auto-crits
• Aesthetically a big loss for many SAM mains
• Rotation feels hollow and Kenki Management destroyed
• Skill-Ceiling and Skill-Floor lowered
• No one even asked for Kaiten removal to begin with

Lastly, the excuse to replace Kaiten? since it's indicated with the description noting SAM feels quote " Restrictive ", restrictive from what? rotation? design? hard to add new skills? from what? Kaiten could have been perfectly been left alone until they are ready on the big Patch to show something that is either equally as good or better to replace it ( with btw, tall task ).

Cause so far, Kaiten has been replaced with " Absolutely Nothing " to Fix " Absolutely Nothing "

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Originally Posted by cjbeagle

Not only the notable lack of samurai in the new Ultimate, but also a suspiciously high amount of monks. HMM...

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It's almost like there wasn't enough time to gear another job before ultimate after slaughtering the job in 6.1. They're doing a great job over there. I wish these awful changes could have waited until 6.2 or whenever they planned on doing their major changes

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Originally Posted by Silnoa

I think you have the right of it. From what I've read on this, it sounds like Kaiten was difficult for them to design around, but there isn't a lot of detail on why exactly. If you look at these changes through that lens, it makes sense that a primary goal of these changes was to remove Kaiten. I suspect that the devs locked in on removing Kaiten early in the process and that explains why they did not do some of the button merging ideas players have suggested as alternatives that would be more aimed at reducing button bloat. Essentially, button bloat was not the problem the devs were trying to solve.

What I'm unclear on is what the nature of their "restriction" with Kaiten was. Was it just causing problems for patch to patch balancing or was more of a difficulty when trying to make changes for major expansions (like adding new actions). If it was the latter, I 100% agree that they should have waited until 7.0 to remove Kaiten.

Ultimately, my biggest problem with the changes is that the rotation feels hollow now. Without something else to spend Kenki on we're left just spamming Shinten and Kenki may as well not even exist anymore, and that just isn't very fun. I think I'd be more ok with the changes if they added something else to spend Kenki on that would impact the rotation in a meaningful way.


A translated quote from Yoshi P. from the FFXIV Reddit Discord Translation\Live Letter Channel (https://discord.gg/ffxiv):
"...and on Kaiten getting removed we did that because we want to do away having to be restricted by that move"

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Indeed. They say it was restrictive, but that hardly explains why. If we had an idea of what they mean or intend behind that, we as a whole might be able to find ways to move forward, but CelestiCer is right so far in that nothing has been solved by this change.

I hope we get an explanation somewhere soon. I want my main job to be fun again.

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Originally Posted by xAFROx

Indeed. They say it was restrictive, but that hardly explains why. If we had an idea of what they mean or intend behind that, we as a whole might be able to find ways to move forward, but CelestiCer is right so far in that nothing has been solved by this change.

I hope we get an explanation somewhere soon. I want my main job to be fun again.

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Don't bother. They are full of shit.

All they doing is spinning shit for damage control.

Originally I made my post trying to be more open-minded and bargain the changes, try and parse them out in my head in a way that could make sense, or try to see the intentions in a measured way. But after three weeks of dealing with them, I can safely say they are all awful and they FEEL worse every time I touch my formerly favorite job.

Here to hoping they actually acknowledge our cries, come to their senses and revert these awful changes. Because right now for me, playing SAM is actually depressing.

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Originally Posted by xAFROx

Indeed. They say it was restrictive, but that hardly explains why.

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Samurai burst was causing dancer and bard to become degenerate with respect to Machinist and that made balancing the ranged role very difficult for them. They explained that part of the reason for Samurai's rebalancing of power was because it was too much in terms of the raid-wide burst windows and that they wanted to take power outside the raidwide burst window.

So with that in mind, imagine if they brought Kaiten back the way it was.

That would mean to maintain their stated goal of rebalancing power outside job burst, the base potency for MSQ would have to be reduced to 427 w/ autocrit.

Now just think about that. Do you really love Kaiten? Is Kaiten the button you really want to fight to keep?

Or is it the 1000+ potency MSGs you really care about?

Legitimate question, and it'd be interesting to see your answers. But please understand--Kaiten back or not, MSG power is NOT coming back, and they need it that way for other roles to be balanced well.

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

Now just think about that. Do you really love Kaiten? Is Kaiten the button you really want to fight to keep?

Or is it the 1000+ potency MSGs you really care about?

Legitimate question, and it'd be interesting to see your answers. But please understand--Kaiten back or not, MSG power is NOT coming back, and they need it that way for other roles to be balanced well.

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For myself, I want Kaiten back. The feel of the class was ruined, for me, by its removal. As for damage & burst, they can figure that problem out another way. But stealing away the flourish of a class that was almost entirely beloved, for the sake of 2 other classes (I guess) who have plenty of other complaints, does not seem like a very wise solution.

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

Samurai burst was causing dancer and bard to become degenerate with respect to Machinist and that made balancing the ranged role very difficult for them. They explained that part of the reason for Samurai's rebalancing of power was because it was too much in terms of the raid-wide burst windows and that they wanted to take power outside the raidwide burst window.

So with that in mind, imagine if they brought Kaiten back the way it was.

That would mean to maintain their stated goal of rebalancing power outside job burst, the base potency for MSQ would have to be reduced to 427 w/ autocrit.

Now just think about that. Do you really love Kaiten? Is Kaiten the button you really want to fight to keep?

Or is it the 1000+ potency MSGs you really care about?

Legitimate question, and it'd be interesting to see your answers. But please understand--Kaiten back or not, MSG power is NOT coming back, and they need it that way for other roles to be balanced well.

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Then what is the point of the flavor and fantasy of the job that is SAM as it was introduced? The whole point of the job flow was to do the slow combos in order to build to its true power, the casted finishers. What are we building to if everything needs to be flat. At that rate and thought process, are we not just playing similarly to the tanks in just repeating a basic combo over and over with little difference in damage across the board.

I've played the changes already and my whole kit does the same throughout. So what are we casting for? What is the kit for? People keep complaining about kenki not mattering anymore and they're right. But with the damage values we have, it honestly feels like Sen hardly matters now too.

The way you describe what's been done and why is a literal sledgehammer to a single brick in the all like nothing is wrong. The wall is still damaged if you do that. It's still intact, but it's not a solid wall anymore.

So why the change? If it's about balance on a greater whole, why is it just SAM and not, I don't know, the entire role you stated was an issue?

We can't forget that the devs are the ones who created this supposed issue to begin with by making everything so focused on a specific burst window. At the logic presented, why have bursts at all?

There's no more expression or uniqueness in the design. It started with tanks and healers, and now the dps too.

So who or what are these changes actually for?

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Originally Posted by Ceridwen

For myself, I want Kaiten back. The feel of the class was ruined, for me, by its removal. As for damage & burst, they can figure that problem out another way. But stealing away the flourish of a class that was almost entirely beloved, for the sake of 2 other classes (I guess) who have plenty of other complaints, does not seem like a very wise solution.

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Agree 100%.

I understand what SE has stated, but I don't agree with the sentiment that SE is forced to go the route of homogenizing all damage, or there is no possibility of reverse course.

Nor that DNC or BRD failing in some way means redesigning one of the classes in the game people largely universally loved.


Seems absurd to balance around classes that are having less fun and making SAM not as fun to match those classes, rather then to bring BRD and MCH up to the state of classes like SAM.


Its been proven through many threads that the damage variance caused by things like Midare crits was hardly an issue in the first place when considering how people play the game. It was only a problem that was noticeable on spreadsheets and no one really felt it in game. The Iaijutsu crits barley effected game play... And if this truely was such a big deal for SE, it seems entirely counter productive to give us Tsubame-gaeshi in the very same expansion that they flatten all finisher damage. Removing Tsubame-gaeshi (instead of high crits and kaiten) and redistributing the damage throughout our rotation would have been a far more positive 'fix' then the one that they hobbled together from their 'failed ideas' bin.



Quick edit: I was getting my moves mixed up and when they released... Tsubame-gaeshi was released in Shadowbringers and I was thinking of the Namikiri release. But all the same, this just further reinforces my point. SE has been doubling down Tsubame-gaeshi, and tripling down with Namikiri, on this very specific type of play style. SE made SAM in this theme, and reinforced it with every expansion.

I rather they back off on the Tsubame-gaeshi and Namikiri, leave Kaiten and Midare crits alone, and redistribute damage, rather then gut the class from the very theme they built it for and leave those lingering moves that created the problem in the first place as awkwardly disjointed with the awkwardly disjointed new direction they are taking the class.

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Originally Posted by FrogBiscuit

Seems absurd to balance around classes that are having less fun and making SAM not as fun to match those classes, rather then to bring BRD and MCH up to the state of classes like SAM.

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It really does! I'd also like improvements to both BRD & MCH. (I make alts to specialize, and I still have my bunny as main Bard, but I would appreciate improvements there - and I pretty much dropped my MCH since the Summoner was just as easy for learning fights and did more damage.)

I can't think of another class that seemed as perfect as the Samurai. The most I can imagine is combining abilities to cut down the buttons. I'd be fine with that. Fiddle with potency if they must, but the feel of the class did NOT need a change. I'm nervous about what they're planning for the Dragoon, but it's not as perfect as the Samurai was. (I wouldn't be as nervous if not for this change.) To their credit, the Rdm was a genuine improvement - I'm happiest with that, by which I mean "DON'T TOUCH IT!" Well... I wouldn't object to combining the melee combo, for the sake of my fingers, but anyway...

Kaiten was important. Maybe they just look at numbers so much that they forget how much the feel matters. I HOPE we're reminding them.

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Originally Posted by Ceridwen

Kaiten was important.

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If they brought Kaiten back, they'd set the potency at under 400 for Midare Setsugekka because they're NOT going to revert the degenerate burst. Because it's degenerate, in the same ways and same reasons old Disembowl was. Just as no dragoon is reasonable in asking for the piercing debuff back, no samurai is going to be reasonable in expecting the 1000+ potency crit midares back. It's not going to happen, and wanting it back won't make it so, because it's necessary for the balance of the roles around Samurai.

Now you can make the argument that Samurai doesn't do enough damage to justify its selfishness, and if that's the case, make that your argument, and look for ways to accomplish this without the burst.

But they're not gonna bring the old MSG back. They'll adjust potencies a bit, they'll tweak it, but you're not getting 1000+ potency MSG back. So, is Kaiten that important to you that you'd be willing to take the gutting of MSG potency to get it back?

Was Kaiten Important? I disbelieve you, because NO ONE was talking about how integral it was to the samurai feel until the change was announced. NO ONE was saying that in the 4 years before Endwalker, they were saying that it existed as a mandatory button press before Iaijutsu and that's it. Because that IS what it was. It wasn't anything more.

I'm not saying your feelings aren't valid. I'm saying Kaiten isn't what you're really having a problem with. I'm saying that you're not quite being honest with yourselves, because you know if they brought Kaiten back, your Iajutsu potencies would be gutted to do so. You know they're not going to put your old burst back. You know they had problems with it, and when they have problems like that, they don't go back on that.

So, rather than try to complain and revert to that which is degenerate, instead, why not try to look at ways to improve things for you such that they are not?

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

Was Kaiten Important?

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Yes, and since you're apparently too lazy to read the threads, I'll summarize it for you in this one:

- Without Kaiten, kenki management is no longer necessary at all, which dumbs-down the gameplay.
- Without Kaiten, the choice of how to spend kenki no longer exists, which dumbs-down the gameplay.
- Without Kaiten, the choice of when to spend kenki no longer matters, which dumbs-down the gameplay.
- Without Kaiten, Iaijutsu and Ogi Namikiri hit for drastically less than they used to, which makes the job's entire kit feel flat and unsatisfying, and also makes burst windows far less important, which dumbs-down the gameplay.

Also, many players care about the animation and/or audio flourish that Kaiten provided to herald an incoming massive hit - more of a nuanced point, but worth noting.
Also, though many players would probably not notice it consciously, the RDM style action-action-wait- that Kaiten + Iaijutsu [cast] is/was important to feel - again, more of a nuanced point, but worth noting.

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

I disbelieve you, because NO ONE was talking about how integral it was to the samurai feel until the change was announced.

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People don't tend to start threads about things that are working perfectly fine as-is. Are there discussions about how important Dualcast is for RDM? Or do people take it for granted? But if they decided to remove it, you can be certain there would be outrage.

You clearly don't appreciate how important Kaiten was, yet continue to weigh in on various threads as if you're going to change the minds of samurai mains.

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

I'm saying Kaiten isn't what you're really having a problem with.

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You obviously have no idea what people have a problem with - the nuances of our complaints escape you - how about you stop trying to tell people what they think.

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

Was Kaiten Important? I disbelieve you, because NO ONE was talking about how integral it was to the samurai feel until the change was announced. NO ONE was saying that in the 4 years before Endwalker, they were saying that it existed as a mandatory button press before Iaijutsu and that's it. Because that IS what it was. It wasn't anything more.

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This take is so ridiculous I have to assume it's a troll, but I'll indulge you for a moment.

Do you, as a Red Mage Main, post on the forums about all the aspects of the job that work right on a consistent basis?

No one brought up Kaiten in 4 years because SAM was seen AS PERFECTLY FINE as evident by the iterations we got for each expac and from the lack of outcry of SAM players at large. That's not to say there wasn't room for improvement but at its core players were happy.

The developers fucked up, full stop. SAMs gameplay was largely lauded as being as close to perfect as you can get (in terms of job flow and feel).

IF SE really knew about this issue they should have changed Samurai in a meaningful way AT THE LAUNCH OF ENDWALKER.

Additionally why did they give us a lvl 90 ability which is literally the most extreme version of the abilities they now say they have a problem with? (long cool down, super hard hitting abilities that vary wildly based on crit).

SE either had no idea this was a problem until just now or it was along standing issue they chose not to bring up ever . . . both of which aren't good looks for them.

And really, what's at issue here? SAMs never ever had issues clearing content or pulling in good DPS. Is it that Ultimates were causing issues? Well good news, NO GROUP IS RUNNING SAM TO CLEAR ULTIMATES.

Having a job that's built around big hits isn't an issue. If variance is an issue then give kaiten a buff to crit change. If crits are an issue . . . well maybe there's a fundamental issue in how encounters are designed.

Lastly, you bring up the burst as if its a bad thing or was something the devs were targeting. Samurai isn't the issue they are trying to stop. They wanted more consistent damage to make their balancing easier which is just another way of saying they want to be lazy about it.

If they DON'T want to have bursting, hard hitting jobs then they need to replace SAMs kit with something fun and meaningful. The whole kit was designed around the concept of build up + big hits to give a very rewarding gameplay loop. If you just rip out parts of it you get what we have now: pissed off players.

It isn't our job to provide feedback on how to fix changes they just dropped on us, it's THEIR job to figure out how to make jobs fun and engaging.

It's simple: bring Samurai back to how it was in 6.08, then for 7.0 do a full revamp to fit the needs of SE.

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

If they brought Kaiten back, they'd set the potency at under 400 for Midare Setsugekka because they're NOT going to revert the degenerate burst. Because it's degenerate, in the same ways and same reasons old Disembowl was. Just as no dragoon is reasonable in asking for the piercing debuff back, no samurai is going to be reasonable in expecting the 1000+ potency crit midares back. It's not going to happen, and wanting it back won't make it so, because it's necessary for the balance of the roles around Samurai.

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Much simpler and easier for them to reduce the potency granted by Kaiten than to gut the moves AND remove Kaiten. They chose class destruction over something more refined because Kaiten was "restricting" them. Which is BS reasoning if I've ever heard it.

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

Now you can make the argument that Samurai doesn't do enough damage to justify its selfishness, and if that's the case, make that your argument, and look for ways to accomplish this without the burst.

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We've been doing this. Where have you been? Have you just ignored all of the discussion that's occurred about that in the past 3+weeks?

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

But they're not gonna bring the old MSG back. They'll adjust potencies a bit, they'll tweak it, but you're not getting 1000+ potency MSG back. So, is Kaiten that important to you that you'd be willing to take the gutting of MSG potency to get it back?

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I would really like to see how and why you're so confident that changes won't be reverted. Are you privy to some sort of internal discussions at SE? No? Then your baseless speculation is more worthless than any suggestion SAM's have made about rolling changes back, because there is at least some historical proof to suggest that SE can and will roll back changes.

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

Was Kaiten Important? I disbelieve you, because NO ONE was talking about how integral it was to the samurai feel until the change was announced. NO ONE was saying that in the 4 years before Endwalker, they were saying that it existed as a mandatory button press before Iaijutsu and that's it. Because that IS what it was. It wasn't anything more.

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This is just a terrible take, and again reeks of rank ignorance. Kaiten was absolutely talked about; any time a new SAM asked "so how do I SAM good?" we always said the same thing; Kaiten is your most powerful ppK Kenki spender but ONLY when used on Iaijutsu, so make sure you always have enough in the tank to use Kaiten. It was the entire reason behind why we had to manage Kenki. It was literally the basics of the basics, and anyone who played SAM even semi-seriously understood how important and core it was. That's why it was the first new ability a SAM would gain at 52. It tied the entire kit together. Just because it wasn't talked about constantly outside of when SAM was first released or when teaching a newbie doesn't mean that it wasn't important. By your argument, because DRG's don't talk about how important Jump is all the time then it should be fine to remove it, and that's a stupid argument to make. But after all, Jump is "just a button you push for damage" so why not just roll that damage into the GCD's to make the job "more accessible?"

Because if you did that it would kill the fun and thematics of the job and by extension the job itself. Like what has happened with SAM.

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

I'm not saying your feelings aren't valid. I'm saying Kaiten isn't what you're really having a problem with. I'm saying that you're not quite being honest with yourselves, because you know if they brought Kaiten back, your Iajutsu potencies would be gutted to do so. You know they're not going to put your old burst back. You know they had problems with it, and when they have problems like that, they don't go back on that.

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I don't know a single SAM who wasn't at least open to the idea of Kaiten being removed provided we received something at least as engaging in compensation. They point behind Kaiten was a concrete actualization of the design direction that Yoshi P. and his team spoke of in the post-HW/pre-SB direction. Notably, they talked about how they liked the idea of "mini limit breaks" that a job would build towards. You see this idea ALL OVER Stormblood and Shadowbringers; RDM with their melee combo build-up; SAM with it's Iaijutsu; DRG with it's LotD phase; DNC with it's resource pooling and dump during TF; BRD with it's Pitch Perfect build-up; GNB with it's cartridge build-up and dump during NM. I could go on.

So what did SE do? They chose to release a part of a planned overarching job balance change, but the only part released was SAM and it also happened to remove the key thing SAM had that tied its resources together and required thought and planning to utilize correctly. As if this wasn't enough, they also gutted the "mini limit break" style they had talked about, and we've currently seen NOTHING to tell us what the new job design direction is supposed to be outside of "we'll remove abilities if we find them too restrictive to design around."

Had we received something at least as engaging as Kaiten in response then no, the loss of Kaiten wouldn't have been a big deal. But we got NOTHING. The class was dumbed down in an irreparable manner and the reasons given were spurious at best, constantly changing in such a way that it felt like the goal posts were being moved right before our eyes. Barring any kind of access to internal job design plans, no one could conceivably come up with anything to suggest as far as replacing Kaiten goes because Kaiten was simply such a core part that it cannot be replicated without simply restoring it. You could have a button that does the same thing that Kaiten does and call it Boop-a-Doop for all we care, but the point is there needs to be something that allows the player to engage with the job. Right now SAM is braindead because SE has made it braindead and it is 100% because of them removing Kaiten.

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

So, rather than try to complain and revert to that which is degenerate, instead, why not try to look at ways to improve things for you such that they are not?

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Please do yourself and everyone who has to read your drivel a favor and explore any of the many threads that have discussed SAM issues since the LL first revealed that we would be losing Kaiten. We have been suggesting alternate things to do that would both preserve the job gameplay and flavor/theme of SAM while also allowing for Kaiten to remain, damage spike variance to be smoothed out, and button bloat to be reduced. We have received zero (0) feedback from the devs in any way except to say that Kaiten was "restricting" their ability to continue to design new stuff for the job and that part of the change was as a result of them gradually rolling out some planned changes that are in the works. Putting aside the rank idiocy of releasing something that is clearly unfinished and doesn't belong/have support in the game as it stands now, the fact is that their decisions have destroyed the fun in the job and replaced it with exactly nothing.

Here, I'll even do you a solid and provide the link to the post wherein Yoshi P. discusses the upcoming plans that they have been working on:

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-anymore/page5

post 47 and 48 by Quyn, reading as such:

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If you read the latest Yoshi P translations, it paints a different picture :

"Of course there are times where I thought of just flip the table and not change anything...but still...yeah on SAM's guaranteed critical, having that will make SAM's performance jump really high but there are also parts where SAM doesn't see drastic jump as they should...and on Kaiten getting removed we did that because we want to do away having to be restricted by that move, and as for its sub stats, the influence of those stats as the patch moves on will become bigger and bigger and it'll jump the job's performance really high, more so than expected and in reverse the numbers on lesser patch will see the job not jumping as high as the job should....hmmmm...Indeed, it is true that the job's strength and weakness will depend on whether the job's amount of critical dealt and I agree the job relied on that aspect too much, and as for the strength and weakness...yeah that's what it is. I of course do understand that this is part of the fun for the job....and, as for this time, we saw specific actions determined the the composition of DPS and perhaps it leaned way too much so we let some of the weapon skill value loose and we know that if we just increase the potency of weapon skill it'll result in those skills at lower level being too strong, so we adjusted on those values as well by... please refer to the new traits added to SAM located below. So...yeah, this is the adjustments for the job we made for this patch.

And then, I am also well aware of how the critical synergy works well with jobs...and I'm definitely aware, but this is also the overall problem of FFXIV itself, and there are discussions where we should have change that itself to begin with. But we can't be doing everything simultaneously at once so please understand that we want to tackle on that gradually. We do experience cases where it's hard to adjust when a skill with and without critical can cause such a huge disparity...and so we performed this adjustment precisely we care about that so I apologize but I'd like you to please give it a try first."

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Part 2


"However, as for opinions, Of course we do and indeed read those properly, including those that think it's not right to over standardise jobs or comments like "you overdo yourself when it comes to our only trait or the optimization elements we have". We do indeed want to push it for as much as we could, and we are very well aware of people who understand this, as well as people who are already used to what they have now and people who told us not to do anything unnecessary. We really get that but in order for the expansion to continue and for each jobs to continue getting new actions, and whenever we think of trying to maintain the individual characteristics of each job, we found out that this "optimization" is quite tied and connected to the irregular element that was created in the past, and if we don't work to address this we can no longer build upon the existing elements and improve things further, and it'll land us in a situation where we can no longer steer ourselves forward. (edited)

Still, I of course do acknowledge that there are parts where people did not ask for, like Ninja or Samurai..and regarding Samurai's guaranteed Critical, we indeed struggled a lot on the balance adjustments due to the strong ratio fluctuation here, and we really attempted to close the variance gap for as much as we could, and we know this is done for the sake of job balance so I really appreciate if you can understand what we're trying to achieve here. You can send us feedback from there and if the voices of how a job's identity has been taken away too much then these comments will act as a reference to the direction of job balance and improvements we'll be performing in the future. So please, if you do think it matters to you, do send us a feedback regarding the matter.

Well, of course I am very well aware and understand that players will feel lonely and their displeasure will get really big when certain elements of the job they played and got used to for quite a long while now gets changed or removed, so it's not like we're purposely looking away these comments with disapproval or something, but it'll definitely be much appreciated if you can tell us which part you want us to retain or tell us more on which aspects are more favorable to you after touching on the adjustments so that we can take your comment as reference, and from there we'll know where to draw the line. I'll repeat myself that we really did all these adjustments for the sake of player's enjoyment here so I'll be thankful if you all can understand this. (The rest omitted) "

Translations taken from https://discord.gg/ffxiv

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

So, rather than try to complain and revert to that which is degenerate, instead, why not try to look at ways to improve things for you such that they are not?

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Oh goodie another troll :O (cracks knuckles again) <3

1st, might I humbly thank you for responding to many SAM threads, while you missed over a 100 more SAM threads, I fully support your endeavor to bump every single one of them. We're very appreciative. NOW

Newsflash Not every Samurai or player are complaining solely about the following

• Potencies
• Performances
• Meta
• Numbers

I know shocker... there's like an entire other audience that enjoys Samurai for its

• Rotation
• Execution
• Aesthetics
• Kenki-Management
• Fantasy

Which Kaiten was a big part of regardless of it's potencies.

HOWEVER
Many value the fantasy of Samurai being a hard hitting Melee caster of which can definitely be achieved without Kaiten. It just so happened that Kaiten made that extremely fun, and you won't convince any of us that Kaiten is what stands in the way of balancing anything else outside of Samurai. Numbers can always be tweaked, gameplay changes a bit harder.

I am wondering... are you Salty? that, your job whilst completely viable Pre6.1 and Post6.1 to clear any content... you somehow aren't clearing something? Is that why you are venting on the Samurai threads? May I kindly ask after you called part of what we loved about our class design " Degenerate ", do you have trouble clearing anything? mayhap the current tier? I'll give you a hint, Kaiten removal and Samurai class design does not stand in the way of that. It won't burden you.

PS: I never actually thought of calling it MSG that way in just letters, but your posts have been quite " HaiYah!!! "

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

If they brought Kaiten back....

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Its like you are taking part in this discussion by simply speaking at people, rather then actually respond to what they are posting.

Not only have you continued to ignore points people are making about kaiten, but you are also coming from a inflexible but impossible to prove, position that SE is incapable of designing the game to take into account the SAM playstyle and that SE's original vision for the class is just a impossibility to achieve. (Not to even mention considering the idea that a middle ground can be achieved where 1000+ potency arn't necessarily a thing, but the SAM job is still able to maintain finishers that hit like someone would expect a 'finisher' to hit...

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

Was Kaiten Important? I disbelieve you, because NO ONE was talking about how integral it was to the samurai feel until the change was announced. NO ONE was saying that in the 4 years before Endwalker, they were saying that it existed as a mandatory button press before Iaijutsu and that's it. Because that IS what it was. It wasn't anything more.

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And to add... Why would they? Why would anyone raise a fuss about how important Kaiten was when there was no question in any of our minds that it was going to be removed?? How would that make any sense at all?

More accurately stated would be: How many people were complaining about Kaiten? Which would be effectively no one.


We didn't need to stress the importance of kaiten because there were no reason for its' removal in the first place and was a core part of the class game play, and the change hit us from left field...

Does it make any sense at all that SAM players would just endlessly lavish praise over the move when it was never in question in the first place? You are making conclusions based off of entirely unrelated/illogical factors...

We have a problem with BOTH kaiten being removed, and our high potency finishers. It isn't a problem of one thing or another. No one is getting mixed up, being dishonest with themselves, or otherwise here regarding kaiten, but you.

Kaiten's removal had a set of negative factors that many of us arn't happy about.
Potency removed from our finishers have another set of negative factors that many of us arn't happy about.

Its dishonest to try and conflate both issues (while certainly connected) with one another and suggest that people don't know what they are talking about, simply because you are straight up disregarding one full half of the discussion.

Two things can be true at the same time...

I Never find nothing wrong on samurai, I play it over the gamepad of xbox, On pc, I Always did my best, I always concern my % in dmg. All what i know it was flow, Pure And Angelic perfection, Which i love.
The removal of Kaiten hit me hard like a truck on the street after taking something to eat before going to school.

What i know now, is only a spammable Shinten, My hands just end up crying over it becoming numb of it.

Removing Kaiten really delete a part of the samurai, They find it obsolete? They find it bad, What i know they has better ways to deal with it and not remove Kaiten. This is the most Stupid mistake FF DEV And Yoshi, Did, I really am against being toxic or angry over the Dev, They are beutiful peoples, But this, is unacceptable.

I really wanna yell, Or insult the Dev to make them understand how much bad, Spoking for all peoples that have my same feeling towards Kaiten, My people, OUR Peoples, Us.

I really won't explain everyreason, Which everyone already did.
But know something dev, You did something that is over the most IDIOTIC UNBEARABLE INCONSISTENT OUTRAGEOUS And FOOLISH Decision you could ever made!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

Samurai burst was causing dancer and bard to become degenerate with respect to Machinist and that made balancing the ranged role very difficult for them. They explained that part of the reason for Samurai's rebalancing of power was because it was too much in terms of the raid-wide burst windows and that they wanted to take power outside the raidwide burst window.

So with that in mind, imagine if they brought Kaiten back the way it was.

That would mean to maintain their stated goal of rebalancing power outside job burst, the base potency for MSQ would have to be reduced to 427 w/ autocrit.

Now just think about that. Do you really love Kaiten? Is Kaiten the button you really want to fight to keep?

Or is it the 1000+ potency MSGs you really care about?

Legitimate question, and it'd be interesting to see your answers. But please understand--Kaiten back or not, MSG power is NOT coming back, and they need it that way for other roles to be balanced well.

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I'm sorry, can we drop smoking bullshit SE is spinning?

First is button bloat. Then it's about "players' enjoyment" then about "job design being restrictive".

Now it's about "burst window".

Fuck off with excuses (at SE, not you). Seriously. It's literal garbage. Who was it that shoved 2 min raid wide buff align down everyone's throat? Oh. And now it's a problem for their balance. This whole "balance outside of burst window" is a complete nonargument which I'm not even going to bother getting into. Just critically think over that.

SE/YoshiP. Fuck off with your bullshit spinning. It's fucking pathetic.

Edit- Couldn't give less of a shit what potency midare setsugekka is (personally). If it's a power balance / nerf, I could not. give. less. shit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

Was Kaiten Important? I disbelieve you, because NO ONE was talking about how integral it was to the samurai feel until the change was announced. NO ONE was saying that in the 4 years before Endwalker, they were saying that it existed as a mandatory button press before Iaijutsu and that's it. Because that IS what it was. It wasn't anything more.

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I don't talk about how my legs are integral for my life because like Kaiten was, it has always been there and they were always enjoyable to use. However if you remove my legs just like you remove Kaiten, I'm going to notice how much worse my experience is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Misa-Miko

But know something dev, You did something that is over the most IDIOTIC UNBEARABLE INCONSISTENT OUTRAGEOUS And FOOLISH Decision you could ever made!

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Oh and don't forget all the pathetic excuses they are spewing.

"Hurrrr button bloat"
"Hurrrr restrictive"
"Hurrrr burst window"

I think at this point, it's pretty obvious some dipshit high in management shove this in and is now doubling down so they don't lose face.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

Was Kaiten Important? I disbelieve you, because NO ONE was talking about how integral it was to the samurai feel until the change was announced. NO ONE was saying that in the 4 years before Endwalker, they were saying that it existed as a mandatory button press before Iaijutsu and that's it. Because that IS what it was. It wasn't anything more.

I'm not saying your feelings aren't valid. I'm saying Kaiten isn't what you're really having a problem with. I'm saying that you're not quite being honest with yourselves, because you know if they brought Kaiten back, your Iajutsu potencies would be gutted to do so. You know they're not going to put your old burst back. You know they had problems with it, and when they have problems like that, they don't go back on that.

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This is why I hate forums so so so much. There's always someone out there in hideous forum land who will tell you that you don't think or feel what you think and feel. It's like a toxic relationship from hell. How annoying!

Anyway, yes, Kaiten was that important, and no, I am not 'lying to myself,' and I doubt the others here are self-deceiving for the sake of... God knows what. Kaiten is *exactly* what I am having a problem with, and as I am always entirely 'honest with myself,' I will also say I don't actually care about my potencies. I care, personally, about the flourish which made me pick up the class in the first place.

If they have no intention of reverting the class, then this is substantially worse than making a change & saying, "this is it - deal with it.' which is NOT what was said. It would be manipulative, and I would be genuinely angry at the deception of 'we want your feedback on this, please.' I'm not that angry now, because I think they're listening. I am hopeful they are thinking, 'Well, I guess they really did love that ability," and they're trying to figure out how to restore it, while fixing whatever issue they actually had.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RushBee

I don't talk about how my legs are integral for my life because like Kaiten was, it has always been there and they were always enjoyable to use. However if you remove my legs just like you remove Kaiten, I'm going to notice how much worse my experience is.

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You don't know what you've got til it's gone!

I'd also like to point out how many of us never came here before this miserable change - I dreaded the thought, personally. (though it's actually been nice to see so many people feeling the same way.) I can think of no reason that I'd have appeared and posted how much I liked an ability that I considered integral to the class's charm, because I had no reason to imagine what it would be like without that charm. I thought Samurai was in a really good place, and the most it could use was some button consolidation - maybe combine the Shohas - whatever.

But I did know, the second I read the patch notes, that people would be furious. I told my friend about it, and he was horrified. (and has since given up Samurai)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

If they brought Kaiten back, they'd set the potency at under 400 for Midare Setsugekka because they're NOT going to revert the degenerate burst. Because it's degenerate, in the same ways and same reasons old Disembowl was. Just as no dragoon is reasonable in asking for the piercing debuff back, no samurai is going to be reasonable in expecting the 1000+ potency crit midares back. It's not going to happen, and wanting it back won't make it so, because it's necessary for the balance of the roles around Samurai.

Now you can make the argument that Samurai doesn't do enough damage to justify its selfishness, and if that's the case, make that your argument, and look for ways to accomplish this without the burst.

But they're not gonna bring the old MSG back. They'll adjust potencies a bit, they'll tweak it, but you're not getting 1000+ potency MSG back. So, is Kaiten that important to you that you'd be willing to take the gutting of MSG potency to get it back?

Was Kaiten Important? I disbelieve you, because NO ONE was talking about how integral it was to the samurai feel until the change was announced. NO ONE was saying that in the 4 years before Endwalker, they were saying that it existed as a mandatory button press before Iaijutsu and that's it. Because that IS what it was. It wasn't anything more.

I'm not saying your feelings aren't valid. I'm saying Kaiten isn't what you're really having a problem with. I'm saying that you're not quite being honest with yourselves, because you know if they brought Kaiten back, your Iajutsu potencies would be gutted to do so. You know they're not going to put your old burst back. You know they had problems with it, and when they have problems like that, they don't go back on that.

So, rather than try to complain and revert to that which is degenerate, instead, why not try to look at ways to improve things for you such that they are not?

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You really don't seem to understand what it actually is that we're complaining about here. If you did, you'd know the problem I'd more than 'just kaiten'. It's just easy to point at Kaiten as a culmination of the issues compounded into one change, but overall we aren't happy with qhat they've done to the job as a whole and have stated each and every problem made by the 6.1 change.

Actually read through the complaints before you say we're doing it wrong. We've literally stated more than 'just kaiten'.

Thank you for your input and have a nice day.

Bumping the topic. Never forgetti

Man, you samurai are still on about Kaiten? You’re like broken records.

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

Man, you samurai are still on about Kaiten? You’re like broken records.

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Man, you Non-Samurai's are still on about trolling Samurai threads? You're like broken records.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

Man, you samurai are still on about Kaiten? You’re like broken records.

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You're still complaining about people complaining? Like 90% of your activity since 6.1 has been whining in and about samurai threads.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

Man, you samurai are still on about Kaiten? You’re like broken records.

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Thanks for the bump bro.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

Man, you samurai are still on about Kaiten? You’re like broken records.

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I was doing my best to stop injecting just to point out silly people/posts...

But you are really making it hard...

You literally went into a thread that was falling off the main page, and rather then let a SAM or poster with a vested interest in the topic refresh it... You come into the thread to post 'are you still on about kaiten?', ironically unconscious to the fact that the thread you used to post that accusation was one of the more poor examples of what you were even claiming, and you were refreshing yourself after a day and a half of thread inactivity.

But in all seriousness, thanks for the thread bump... Your type of posts seem to be a integral part of that broken record you bring up.


Besides... Ignoring you comical irony... Do you not realize that noise of the kaiten removal/potency issues will likely continue until 3 specific things occur:
- 6.2 launches and the problem is either reverted, fixed, or entirely abandoned
- If the problem is fixed before 6.2
- SAM players lose interest in the game and either let their account expire or simply become distracted by more interesting things.

And this isn't to mention the group that may even hold on to hope after 6.2, waiting for the distant, uncertain promise of the next expansion.


I would suggest to learn to not let SAM players expressing their discontent with their class changes get to you that much otherwise you may struggle with these forums over the next couple of months.

I wish you the best with all that.

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

Man, you Non-Samurai's are still on about trolling Samurai threads? You're like broken records.

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I don't want to hear it. I used to play Samurai and then stopped cause there's more wrong with it than Kaiten. You need to get over it already. It's like the Soprano's. It's over.