World of Warcraft died because the developers only catered to casuals and world prog

What killed WoW for a lot of people I know was the fact that a large portion of the game was unplayable if you weren't in an active guild on horde specifically. As long as SE allows players to experience most if not all of the content without needing a static or large active FC, then they'll keep doing fine.

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Originally Posted by Roflcopter

I wouldn’t say I’m hardcore by any stretch, but Legion was pretty easy to progress and keep multiple alts. I cleared every tier regularly with 3 classes normal and heroic (DH, warlock, Paladin) and had some other reasonably geared alts.

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So you grinded AP between three different classes (not counting any spec swaps if any) prior to any catch-up implementation (so no AP knowledge catchup, order hall resource catch-up, not legendary tokens)?

Thats what everyone complained about from 7.0 to 7.1.5 was that AP gated alts and spec swaps.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

What killed WoW for a lot of people I know was the fact that a large portion of the game was unplayable if you weren't in an active guild on horde specifically. As long as SE allows players to experience most if not all of the content without needing a static or large active FC, then they'll keep doing fine.

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Bro, unless you are progging Mythic -- you can find Alliance guilds pretty well off. Server dependent of course, but thats another issue onto itself.

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Originally Posted by Y2K21

So you grinded AP between three different classes (not counting any spec swaps if any) prior to any catch-up implementation (so no AP knowledge catchup, order hall resource catch-up, not legendary tokens)?

Thats what everyone complained about from 7.0 to 7.1.5 was that AP gated alts and spec swaps.


Bro, unless you are progging Mythic -- you can find Alliance guilds pretty well off. Server dependent of course, but thats another issue onto itself.

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Yeah. I was home with the kids during Legion so had a lot more time on my hands. Otherwise, it would likely have been only one class.

Also, I didn’t swap with the classes for the most part. Prot Paladin, Havoc DH and affliction lock. I did swap the lock later on to destro I think but that wasn’t until Tomb of Sargeras where there was catchup.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

Except the recent influx is from midcore WoW players looking for an MMO to go to lol, not casual players who can't handle a three-button rotation. The game has changed significantly from HW to ShB, and if you think there was no deviation you are honestly deluded.

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and what they will probably do some Asphodelos Savage, clear it and move to ultimate/old savage min ilvl.

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Originally Posted by Y2K21

Bro, unless you are progging Mythic -- you can find Alliance guilds pretty well off. Server dependent of course, but thats another issue onto itself.

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Finding a full server is always a top priority. You don’t wanna be stuck on a dead or dying WoW server. I remember everyone still memeing “Blackrock is Full” until I left it as almost no one was on it anymore.

Like the population of most MMOs in the genre in general, and particularly in older ones like WoW and FFXIV - a lot of the playerbase has aged into full time careers and families. A large number may have an hour a day, or sometimes no time at all to play the game at times. I mean my nephew who used to play WoW as like an actual child is now post-college aged and working full time.

There are probably massive numbers of people like this who are very casual at this point, and probably the largest number of subscribers if you were to really categorize them. I think there is content for all types of players but it's bizarre to think a company should not create content that would appeal to a large part of the playerbase.

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Originally Posted by MaxCarnage

I think your definition of Midcore is skewed. While you are correct that Midcore players are casual in the sense that they are not usually raiders, what you described are complete casuals. No effort required casuals.

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I’d say midcore in the WoW sense was people that cleared normal and heroic raids weekly either pug or guild, cleared mythic 10 for the loot box and kept an alt that cleared at least normal and some mythic+. The spectrum probably ranged from guys who cleared normal and some low mythic+ only to people that may dabble in mythic raid progression. Non raiders and LFR only are firmly casual players.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

That's cute: legacy players who haven't even cleared the tier trying to tell people they played more FF14 than everyone else. Shocker, but, you don't have more experience with the game just because you're a legacy player who hasn't engaged with more than half the content that exists in FF14. Go get a fully upgraded Eureka weapon or clear a Savage or solo a deep dungeon before talking more.

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Riven Road, was harder than the whole of Eureka. I did my grinds before the nerfs kid, people still complain on the Atma grind i finished before you stopped playing club penguin. This is also only my main character, on my main account, i have two legacy accounts btw.

You can go back to your p2w game you already said you favored, or keep paying you parents money to make silly troll post, idc either way, just don't pretend to stand on some mountain top looking down on others flexing your play time, there's always someone with more experience, clout, & achievements.

The OP's take on WoW's decline couldn't be more wrong. There are many reason people have left WoW; broken, unbalanced class mechanics; borrowed power systems that take agency away from the player; increasingly bad storytelling, starting with Cataclysm; a community that has become toxic and intolerant of newcomers. WoW isn't casual friendly at all anymore. Add in a lead designer in Ion that really only cares about mythic dungeons and mythic raids, and has made clear his disdain for anyone that doesn't enjoy them.

Crafting armor/weapons is a joke; PvP remains gear dependent and unbalanced; a game world that is designed to frustrate and annoy (Torghast, The Maw); and then you find out the devs are complete jerks and it should come as no surprise that WoW died from all these self-inflicted wounds.

My first few weeks in Eorzea have been a like a breath of fresh air. The differences in the two games are clear and obvious to me now. I enjoy being around friendly folks that have fun playing a game, rather that the miserable sods that, while not being entirely representative of the WoW community, have more than enough presence there to make you want to give up online gaming for good.

It's the casuals in WoW that kept it afloat this long, and the latest developments were the last straw for me. I'm never going back.

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Originally Posted by Roflcopter

Finding a full server is always a top priority. You don’t wanna be stuck on a dead or dying WoW server.

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You can say that about any game that has servers. No one wants to play on the server/data center with no one playing on it.

Yeah, I'm sure the approach that led to them becoming the best selling Final Fantasy title (appealing to casuals and making it easy to still enjoy the game REGARDLESS of your skill level) will come back to bite them because they didn't [checks notes] design their entire game around something a tiny, tiny fraction of hardcore raiders (already a small group) care about.

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Originally Posted by kefesa

Yeah, I'm sure the approach that led to them becoming the best selling Final Fantasy title (appealing to casuals and making it easy to still enjoy the game REGARDLESS of your skill level) will come back to bite them because they didn't [checks notes] design their entire game around something a tiny, tiny fraction of hardcore raiders (already a small group) care about.

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I’d rather they stay casual and have nearly all the content available to everyone instead of like WoW did with TBC where 90% of the endgame content was locked to 1% of the player base. Big beautiful raids that only a handful of people ever got to experience.

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Originally Posted by Alacran

Riven Road, was harder than the whole of Eureka. I did my grinds before the nerfs kid, people still complain on the Atma grind i finished before you stopped playing club penguin. This is also only my main character, on my main account, i have two legacy accounts btw.

You can go back to your p2w game you already said you favored, or keep paying you parents money to make silly troll post, idc either way, just don't pretend to stand on some mountain top looking down on others flexing your play time, there's always someone with more experience, clout, & achievements.

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Sit down kid, go clear A8S min ilvl or TEA before you brag about what's "hard" lol. This is the thing I can't stand about legacy players. They confuse grindiness with difficulty.

I understand there's been a lot of troll threads in these forums but I don't think skiros is a troll? He makes a lot of reasonable points and even when the titles are a little weird they are not on the same level as other posts I've seen that are straight up just "lgbt bad"...

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Originally Posted by Skiros

Sit down kid, go clear A8S min ilvl or TEA before you brag about what's "hard" lol. This is the thing I can't stand about legacy players. They confuse grindiness with difficulty.

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https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...48/980/8cb.png

See, the thing is, only the leve system was the grind part of 1.0. The systems in 1.0 actively went against grinding when you look at the fatigue system. Much of the game design was also less than intuitive, so you had keep notes on places, drops, gathering nodes, recipes, ect... One could even say the game mechanics themselves were hurdles to overcome of much greater magnitude that whatever content a whole group probably carried you through.

Being that i have a decade over you in playtime & you weren't even around when i started, me calling you kid isn't an insult, it's fact. You're talking about things you literally don't know.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

Except I have been playing FF14 since Heavensward and I probably have played way more of FF14 than you ever will.

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Well if the time you started makes one's thoughts more important then another, I played since 2.30 release and have definitely played way more ff14 then you ever will.. Joking aside, the game is doing well, also the game never really favored end gamers. It's always been a theme park mmorpg. It has something for everyone and to be fair, then not to forget that end gamers don't make up most of the player base to begin with so of course SE will favor midcore to casual players more while still trying to appear end gamers some what.

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Originally Posted by Minarisweet

I understand there's been a lot of troll threads in these forums but I don't think skiros is a troll? He makes a lot of reasonable points and even when the titles are a little weird they are not on the same level as other posts I've seen that are straight up just "lgbt bad"...

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uh.. focus on casual killed wow isnt a dead troll giveaway?

WoW catered to raiders and high end players.. thats what killed it, aside from sucking every ounce of fun out of any expansion... little to do with casuals except they left...

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Originally Posted by Minarisweet

I understand there's been a lot of troll threads in these forums but I don't think skiros is a troll? He makes a lot of reasonable points and even when the titles are a little weird they are not on the same level as other posts I've seen that are straight up just "lgbt bad"...

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Every time I rejoin the game, there is that one poster here who starts "controversial" topics regularly and generally just makes a name (or nuisance depending on your PoV) of themselves on the forums. Two years ago that poster was "BroFists", and I'm sure there were other posters before Skiros and there will be posters after.

I think while similar, Skiros does seem less unhinged than BroFists so I can appreciate that at least.

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Originally Posted by Minarisweet

I understand there's been a lot of troll threads in these forums but I don't think skiros is a troll? He makes a lot of reasonable points and even when the titles are a little weird they are not on the same level as other posts I've seen that are straight up just "lgbt bad"...

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People think I'm a troll because they think anyone that disagrees with them is a troll! I keep saying this: if I want to troll I wouldn't be posting on Skiros!

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

Every time I rejoin the game, there is that one poster here who starts "controversial" topics regularly and generally just makes a name (or nuisance depending on your PoV) of themselves on the forums. Two years ago that poster was "BroFists", and I'm sure there were other posters before Skiros and there will be posters after.

I think while similar, Skiros does seem less unhinged than BroFists so I can appreciate that at least.

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HAHAHAHAHA you wanna know who BroFists, TitanMen, RTX3080, MilitaryVet123, ... are?

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

uh.. focus on casual killed wow isnt a dead troll giveaway?

WoW catered to raiders and high end players.. thats what killed it, aside from sucking every ounce of fun out of any expansion... little to do with casuals except they left...

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Pretty much. Every expansion that focused on the top end failed hard after Wrath. TBC still did fine despite being top heavy because it was still the most casual game on the market. Didn’t mean that 90% of the endgame was only ever seen by 1% of the players though. Every time they tried to cater to top players after Wrath failed. Cataclysm, WoD, BfA, Shadowlands… No one wanted to go back to overtuned heroic dungeons. I quit Cata after the first couple weeks of those idiotic heroic dungeons. I didn’t want to slog through Burning Crusade nonsense again. Didn’t have the time or patience for that crap. As for BFA forward? Yeah, not gonna do a Mythic+ 15 with some toxic windbag yelling at everyone just to get the gear I need. Thanks, but no thanks.

Everquest was far harder and more unforgiving than WoW, but it never had that toxic angle to it. We all struggled together. Even early WoW felt that way. Eventually, it became an ordeal of dealing with the ego of other players and they felt entitled to abuse everyone else. Blizzard just fed into it and encouraged the behavior.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

People think I'm a troll because they think anyone that disagrees with them is a troll! I keep saying this: if I want to troll I wouldn't be posting on Skiros!

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People know you're a troll because all you do is post intentionally controversial topics to annoy others.

No one buys the doe eyed innocent act you pull.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

HAHAHAHAHA you wanna know who BroFists, TitanMen, RTX3080, MilitaryVet123, ... are?

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Are they all you, having matured over the years so I don't find you unhinged right now? lol

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

Are they all you, having matured over the years so I don't find you unhinged right now? lol

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I’m sure his next username will be doucheknuckle6969. Seems to be his maturity level.

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Originally Posted by Roflcopter

Everquest was far harder and more unforgiving than WoW, but it never had that toxic angle to it. We all struggled together. Even early WoW felt that way. Eventually, it became an ordeal of dealing with the ego of other players and they felt entitled to abuse everyone else. Blizzard just fed into it and encouraged the behavior.

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I was playing EverQuest when WoW launched and I remember most everyone that played thinking WoW was just EQ for people the couldn't hack it in game. I mean WoW had already drawn maps and quest markers, talk about handing it to the players. Also who remembers having to travel by boat, not loading in fast enough and getting dropped into the ocean when it crossed a zone line? The atmosphere of EQ though was more of a group effort and led more to helping others get up to speed and knowledgeable rather than the environment WoW seems to have leaned into where it is all about proving yourself better than others.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

Except I have been playing FF14 since Heavensward and I probably have played way more of FF14 than you ever will.

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I've played since ARR beta... does that make my opinion more valid than yours?

In all seriousness, WOW and FFXIV have very different design approaches. I think FF's strength is that you can take a break for a couple of patches, come back and have decent means to catching up. All this casual, hardcore, and midcore stuff is just pointless labelling. The harder the content the less the player uptake and conversely the easier the content the larger portion. I really think we give these terms to content, but in reality it is just content and has a key audience in mind. hardcore raiders get Ultimate, but casual to mid get almost everything else. Take Bozja as an example. On the whole it is very casual friendly. But it also has content for mid-high players with the duels and Delubrum avage raids.

At the end of the day the key difference is that FF respects the players time, it does not make it mandatory to play every day. If you take a break its very easy to catch upand the longest "grind" in catch up would be MSQ. But that is only due to time spent playing through the story. With wow if you take 3 months off, you pretty much will struggle to raid unless you spend a lot of time farming and playing catch up. I think that is the difference.

Personally i dont think it is healthy to compete one against the other anyway. Both have good points, both have bad points and just because FF is moving to a more easy job rotation o make it more accessibile, does not mean the game is dying. I will always feel for those who are dissatisfied, but making jobs simpler does make it more accessible, does mean that with effort people can improve. Thats not to say they always get it right, they don't. But the beauty of a mmo is it is always organically changing. So even if the job is terrible for someone to play, at some point it will always be adjusted.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

I was playing EverQuest when WoW launched and I remember most everyone that played thinking WoW was just EQ for people the couldn't hack it in game. I mean WoW had already drawn maps and quest markers, talk about handing it to the players. Also who remembers having to travel by boat, not loading in fast enough and getting dropped into the ocean when it crossed a zone line? The atmosphere of EQ though was more of a group effort and led more to helping others get up to speed and knowledgeable rather than the environment WoW seems to have leaned into where it is all about proving yourself better than others.

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Wow has morphed to the expectation that everyone has mastered the content even before it is released. I mean they made a meme of expecting the heroic achievement for an invite to a day 1 normal raid, but that isn’t far from the truth.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

I was playing EverQuest when WoW launched and I remember most everyone that played thinking WoW was just EQ for people the couldn't hack it in game. I mean WoW had already drawn maps and quest markers, talk about handing it to the players. Also who remembers having to travel by boat, not loading in fast enough and getting dropped into the ocean when it crossed a zone line? The atmosphere of EQ though was more of a group effort and led more to helping others get up to speed and knowledgeable rather than the environment WoW seems to have leaned into where it is all about proving yourself better than others.

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Not EQ but I remember missing a boat in FFXI and arriving to the party location like 30 minutes late because of it. . . . . Part of my brain is like "what good times" and the other part is trying to beat it up "YOU FOOL!". lol. I personally like the idea of trying to bridge the ease with the old-school-cool discovery and role play concepts. Like I think traveling is an important aspect of gameplay, but at no point would I be wanting people having to constantly do double digit marches on repeat. There has to be systems on systems to ensure an active cadence, and I do appreciate the drop in and drop out nature too (which I can understand is a preference and not a be all end all opinion).

Where you might say you're constantly putting up large problems but then also offering QoL / solutions to them not too long afterwards to quell them before they go from novel to absolutely irritating. Just since it's a recent example, say in Elden Ring they have loads of teleports but the mount is so fast and so fun that honestly you don't really need to use it all that often unless the journey is a huge distance. One thing I feel FFXIV could have done better is making 'movement' itself more fun, but that's time for another post lol.

Never had it happen to me at level 75, but there was a time in that dang jungle where I deleveled a few times..... I couldn't let my party wipe when someone linked but benediction was always pull the entire zone on you button lol.

wow died because no catgirl or lizardgirl race

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Originally Posted by Roflcopter

Everquest was far harder and more unforgiving than WoW, but it never had that toxic angle to it. We all struggled together. Even early WoW felt that way. Eventually, it became an ordeal of dealing with the ego of other players and they felt entitled to abuse everyone else. Blizzard just fed into it and encouraged the behavior.

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EverQuest did have some toxicity - like people who would train camps to kill everyone as in EverQuest all of your items would remain on your corpse and you could lose hours and hours of XP. People sometimes also fought / KS'd exceptionally rare spawns - things that could take hours or even a week to spawn.

EQ was special back in the day though as more often than not it was cooperative and your reputation in a small community where you can do very little solo mattered. That said, I was a teenager when I played that so I'd never go back to that design philosphy given how time consuming everything was.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

Are they all you, having matured over the years so I don't find you unhinged right now? lol

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Nah they were just baiting when I was bored. I'm not baiting anymore but it seems that people still get pissed, and honestly it's even funnier this way that people get their panties into a twist when I'm just saying whatever pops up in my mind. But I did get a crush.

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Originally Posted by Conundrum

shocking, 'nother Skiros troll thread.

I declare this thread to now be about Pie!
[/IMG]

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Originally Posted by Conundrum

Hey look, another thread by Skiros trying to rile people up.

I declare this one to now be about CAKE!

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Originally Posted by Conundrum

Logged in just to bump all your troll threads.

That's pretty pathetic.

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Originally Posted by Conundrum

Pretend you're not a troll all you want. Anyone who pays attention to what you post knows you are. So you can try this act if you want. Strangely enough no one but you mentioned Titanman...guilty conscience?

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Originally Posted by Conundrum

Sounds like someone is posting another one of his thinly veiled troll threads.

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Originally Posted by Conundrum

Skiros with another troll thread.

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It's OK Conundrum I think you're cute!

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Originally Posted by Skiros

It's OK Conundrum I think you're cute!

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Perhaps under that oversized feathered hat is a smoldering look of lust ROFL.

If it all works out I'll gift you an Eternal Bond Ceremony

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

Perhaps under that oversized feathered hat is a smoldering look of lust ROFL.

If it all works out I'll gift you an Eternal Bond Ceremony

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Haha, I know I drive people crazy, that's my charm!

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

Tis almost a shame you are not BroFists

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Well, I mean, tan Highlanders, Jenova, bearded...

It's just that I have no interest in baiting anyone anymore. At least, not intentionally. Ran out of ideas!

Tis almost a shame you are not BroFists, so I could thank you for what was my most upvoted comment in my FFXIV Forum History, which was

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

BroFists needs a life. It's actually just sad at this point.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

EverQuest did have some toxicity - like people who would train camps to kill everyone as in EverQuest all of your items would remain on your corpse and you could lose hours and hours of XP. People sometimes also fought / KS'd exceptionally rare spawns - things that could take hours or even a week to spawn.

EQ was special back in the day though as more often than not it was cooperative and your reputation in a small community where you can do very little solo mattered. That said, I was a teenager when I played that so I'd never go back to that design philosphy given how time consuming everything was.

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That was more random rogue players being toxic though. Guilds and raids usually didn’t have that atmosphere.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

Nah they were just baiting when I was bored. I'm not baiting anymore but it seems that people still get pissed, and honestly it's even funnier this way that people get their panties into a twist when I'm just saying whatever pops up in my mind. But I did get a crush.














It's OK Conundrum I think you're cute!

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The fact that I triggered you so much that you wasted the time to track down all the times I've called out your trolling fills me with unmitigated joy.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

It's OK Conundrum I think you're cute!

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You two deserve each other.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

HAHAHAHAHA you wanna know who BroFists, TitanMen, RTX3080, MilitaryVet123, ... are?

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This will be interesting

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Originally Posted by Conundrum

The fact that I triggered you so much that you wasted the time to track down all the times I've called out your trolling fills me with unmitigated joy.

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Why ?

Are you just as bent out of shape as they are?