So this game has dps checks but we can't talk about our dps in game?

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Originally Posted by Floortank

How do you know any of that is the case besides you fantasizing about it?

One time I logged in after losing my job. That day, I played really badly. But someone like you would say, "oh, that person boosted."

Get over yourself. You are not god's gift to gaming. You don't know why someone is struggling, or where they are in their experience at that moment. New players have to go into Savage and make mistakes in order to get better. If you don't want to deal with new players, make a static of all legends. What you're suggesting here is the exclusion of most of the playerbase. No one who goes 1->90 or 80->90 directly knows how to play their Job. It takes time for most people to do their rotation correctly. Not optimally, but correctly. It takes even more time for them to be good enough to do extremes, and more than that for them to do Savages.

You don't get to gatekeep and determine when people get to try these things.

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I don't think that not knowing your basic combo can be excused with '' I lost my job today ''.

You also shouldn't be anywhere near Savage if you don't even know how your skills work.
You also shouldn't join Savage because you dinged 90, you should take time to learn your Job properly otherwise you're just wasting everyones time doing something you shouldn't be doing.
So yes if you don't know how to play your Job you should be gatekept from Savage ( and Extremes ).

I'd say the same for really basic mechanics, in one of the P2S groups I was in we had a Healer who three times in a row couldn't comprehend the concept of running to the platform and using Surecast.
If you don't get something that simple in three attempts then maybe you shouldn't be there.
Same thing if you're joining a Clear group and you don't understand the limit cut, why are you so important that you get to waste everyones time why should we have to go at it for 8 hours for you to understand a simple mechanic?
Join a Practice party then maybe create one yourself for the mechanic you're having problems with.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

"Sneaking in" they are using the PF interface to join a group they are qualified for. If there's an issue, the leader of the PF can just kick them, no questions asked.

There is absolutely no need for a "we kicked you because you suck, buddy" button. (Which I'm sure would be used very responsibly and not get abused endlessly.)

If the leader of the PF you're in is not kicking bad players by your standards, your solution is to join a different PF, make your own, join a static group with more exacting standards... or just suck it up and try with the group you have.

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Problem is most PF leaders at least in my experience don't kick them, they just disband the group entirely so these individuals ruin it for everyone.
I think people either don't know who because they're not paying attention to others or they're afraid because they think they'll get in trouble but more often than not the bad apple doesn't actually get kicked.

A lot of people are also extremely quick to label you an elitist and turn you into the bad guy, I had this when I was having my nightmare runs in P2S and desperately trying to get a clear there was ALWAYS 2-3 people ruining it who had no idea what they were doing.
In one of the groups I was in we had a RPR and DNC who neither of which had any melds and we had DPS issues, I didn't even notice until like after 2 hours because I usually don't inspect people.
And when I brought it up they turned it around on me and acted like I was being ridiculous for expecting them to bring melded gear ( again, in a group we were having DPS issues with and died to enrage ).
Ofc group ended up being disbanded, I think we would've gotten the kill if they had come prepared but they didn't...

I just think it sucks that people like this get to ruin things and waste everyones time, when you enter Savage come prepared or don't come at all.
Even in Practice groups at least have watched a Guide unless it's a blind run.

No performance meters in-game please, lol. I think Yoshi-P knows what he's talking about when he says he's absolutely certain it will lead to a bullying issue. I'd take it one step further and say it would lead to a community issue.

The way it is now is fine. It's easy enough to spot someone under performing and if they don't meet your standards in a PF or any other high-end content, you can kick them without making a big deal out of it.

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Originally Posted by Wilford111

No performance meters in-game please, lol. I think Yoshi-P knows what he's talking about when he says he's absolutely certain it will lead to a bullying issue. I'd take it one step further and say it would lead to a community issue.

The way it is now is fine. It's easy enough to spot someone under performing and if they don't meet your standards in a PF or any other high-end content, you can kick them without making a big deal out of it.

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Exactly, parsing is such a minuscule thing in this game unlike WoW were raids designs are designed around everyone doing optimal dpsing. We already have enough avenues for toxicity in this game, no need to add fuel to the fire with a dps performance feature. If you want to gauge your own personal performance with an addon thats your take (and your own personal risk for using). The whole point is that Yoshi-P and the devs feel like such a thing isnt needed due to the aforementioned toxic behavior such a tool can create. Again even on Savage, the most optimal way to clear them is through people understanding mechanics and everyone at the very least know how to do their job rotations and usage of skills, not people outperforming others through dps. Its the philosophy this game has been stuck with and I rather it stay that way.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Exactly, parsing is such a minuscule thing in this game unlike WoW were raids designs are designed around everyone doing optimal dpsing. We already have enough avenues for toxicity in this game, no need to add fuel to the fire with a dps performance feature. If you want to gauge your own personal performance with an addon thats your take (and your own personal risk for using). The whole point is that Yoshi-P and the devs feel like such a thing isnt needed due to the aforementioned toxic behavior such a tool can create. Again even on Savage, the most optimal way to clear them is through people understanding mechanics and everyone at the very least know how to do their job rotations and usage of skills, not people outperforming others through dps. Its the philosophy this game has been stuck with and I rather it stay that way.

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On a personal level I only use it outside to measure gear growth and for fun, it's just fun for me to see the upgrades happen.
In content I don't use it tho because I feel like it'd put pressure on me that might actually cause me to perform worse.

I also think it's pretty easy to tell if you're dishing out enough or not, I know how my Job plays I can feel when a mistake happens and how often it happens.
If we die to enrage I think it's pretty easy to tell if you were part of the problem if you're being honest with yourself.
If I do all the mechanics correctly and have 100% uptime and my rotation is flowing as it should and I am geared with food then I am not the problem.
If I am having lag issues or brain farts for some reason or die then if we die to enrage I can start thinking about whether it was my fault or not, but if I am doing what I should then I know I am in the clear I don't need a third party software to tell me that.

In P1S for example I didn't realize you could have uptime during the melee circle AoE and I was hugging the marks on the timers, that's another way of knowing too that I was doing something wrong and being a potential problem I didn't need at third party software for that either.

Which is honestly fair with your take. If everyone had this mentality then the tool would totally be fine. But unfortunately we cant trust other folks to be mature about it.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Exactly, parsing is such a minuscule thing in this game unlike WoW were raids designs are designed around everyone doing optimal dpsing. We already have enough avenues for toxicity in this game, no need to add fuel to the fire with a dps performance feature. If you want to gauge your own personal performance with an addon thats your take (and your own personal risk for using). The whole point is that Yoshi-P and the devs feel like such a thing isnt needed due to the aforementioned toxic behavior such a tool can create. Again even on Savage, the most optimal way to clear them is through people understanding mechanics and everyone at the very least know how to do their job rotations and usage of skills, not people outperforming others through dps. Its the philosophy this game has been stuck with and I rather it stay that way.

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And yet how exactly do you know proper job usage without using third party tools to determine what is mathematically the best usage of abilites?


Its really irresponsible to say that savage doesn't require a deeper dive into optimal play. It becomes less relevant the more gear people get (via tomestones) but any sort of time-relevant prog is gated by proper play.



The game isn't and hasn't ever been good at teaching its players how to play. At this point, it is extremely likely the devs know the high end community uses third party tools and designs content with these tools in mind. And considering how much the JP community has raged at the devs over balance, it is a pretty fair shot to say its not just an NA mentality (not saying you claimed this, but showing it is a much broader scope than just parsing.)


Players love feedback on their performance, this isn't a negative or inherently toxic trait.

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Originally Posted by Euphares

I mean it is mostly a symptom of a bigger problem which is: The game has a terrible feedback loop.

You quite literally have zero way to tell if you are playing good or bad

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Pro tip: If you're inspecting the floor, you're playing bad. If you get vulnerability stacks, you're playing bad. Maximizing DPS is at the bottom of your priorities. You can't DPS if you're dead. Your healers can't DPS if they're constantly scrambling to keep you alive.

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Originally Posted by Euphares

the game doesn't help you or challenge you in a way that would make you rethink your rotation. Someone could play Ice-only BLM until max level because the game won't ever tell you that's wrong, or have you fail because you are spamming Ice spells only.

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I agree that this is an issue, but parsers aren't the solution to it. Someone who's gone out of their way to install/enable a parser has likely also read all their tooltips and worked out a proper rotation. A better solution, IMO, is to have some sort of in-game rotation tutor. Maybe have an Allagan dummy that analyzes your rotation and either suggests improvements or praises your efficiency. Make a mini-game of it and add it to the challenge log. Unless you're running extremes and savages (in which case you're likely on Discord and outside the scope of SE's enforcement), there's no reason to worry about anyone's DPS. I've never seen a DPS check fail in normal content that wasn't also accompanied by lots of dead bodies on the floor. I've never seen a group completely disband in this game. The vast majority of the time, the duty finder content is cleared without any wipes or echo stacks. On occasion, there's a wipe followed by some explanations, followed by success.

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Originally Posted by Euphares

This is a serious problem, because the moment someone DOES tell you that you are playing wrong, its a big shock, and a lot of people don't handle this shock very well.

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You're misunderstanding the source of the shock. The shock happens when someone who is playing a video game to relax and have fun encounters someone who is playing a video game as a substitute for IRL employment/achievements. No one expects a random player to suddenly start channeling their supervisor from work, and they certainly don't enjoy it. You don't have to tell anyone that they're playing wrong. More often than not, they know, and they don't care. If they cared about your opinion or wanted your tips, they would ask for it. If they ask, feel free to constructively pipe up. Better yet, if you want to educate players, create guides and post them on YouTube, Reddit, and/or Discord. The players who care will seek them out and thank you for it. There's no need to shock anyone.

The real truth about why savage is hard does not involve DPS, as I can illustrate with this nameless discussion...

"Okay, you're DPS is not the problem. The problem is you got 4 damage downs during p1s that I still have no idea how you managed to survive. Additionally, you also had to get rezzed twice during p2s because you tried to soul sow during Kampeos Harmaa for "big numbers", and then proceeded to get face planted into a wall by standing too close to an exploding Lalafellen white mage wearing a bright pink piggy suite so people would not miss seeing him. Don't worry, you just need more practice."

Nameless person: "Okay I'll go practice on the target dummy!"

:D

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Originally Posted by Intellion

For what it's worth, I did enough practice runs of P1S/P2S to execute all the fight mechanics perfectly, and managed to squeeze out just enough DPS to avoid hitting enrage.

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You avoided hitting enrage because someone else likely over-contributed to make up the difference. Tanks should be contributing anywhere from 4.8-5k+ at i580 generally.

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Originally Posted by Intellion

Yet, my results could be much, much better despite me already clearing, and my only options right now for real-time evaluation is ACT, which I cannot get to work on my computer for the life of me, and even if I did, it's still a gray area at best, meaning the chances of getting a crackdown for it isn't exactly zero.

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Fight execution on most jobs can be fully "solved" based on things like skillspeed, killtime and any downtime phases, and improving your percentile is just a matter of executing cleanly on that solution. Overall the game is much less dynamic than other MMOs, it almost turns into a rhythm game at the high-end. One of the best ways to get better at the game and find useful optimizations is to look at the timelines of players who rank in the top 10 on a given fight. Alternatively, some of the job channels in The Balance have fight-specific advice that can be helpful.

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Originally Posted by Intellion

I know FFlogs is a thing, but it only seems to record performances after a clear of a certain boss, meaning that there's no way to know how your personal results were during a wipe, or when you're just wailing on a striking dummy. If there is a way to see that in FFlogs, I don't know how. I'm not good with these things. Regardless, SE should just give us an official in-game performance checker of sorts, so that I can finally have more real-time feedback of my performance without resorting to sketchy third-party tools that are technically still against ToS. If I get kicked from a party for not meeting their desired parses, oh well. To me, that's just a sign that I need to practice more, so I'll just get better until I'm good enough for said party. Or I'll make my own. No big deal. :/

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FFLogs can track partial pulls, and dummy parses but they would need to be uploaded from a logfile generated via ACT. For someone who is just starting out, a log interpreter like XIVAnalysis can be okay for identifying broad mistakes, and can be used with logs other people have uploaded for you. For example it, in XIVAnalysis I can see that you have a tendency to significantly over-cap your blood gauge during phases with heavy mechanics (Channeling flow 2 and 3 in p2s).

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Originally Posted by Laphicet

MNK would quad weave during fists of fire back in SB (I think) and could theoretically quad weave during Six Sided Star in ShB. I don't think there's a class you'd quad weave on nowadays without involving the slow status though... Unless you wanted to clip your GCD.

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I think a lot of people are missing the joke here. You weave your off-GDCs. Your GCD skills are unweavable because they're on the GCD.

Your point is correct, though, when you're talking about quaduple weaving off-GCD skills. If your speed is fast enough, you can double weave some stuff. If you're quadruple weaving, you're probably skipping a GCD and making things worse. The point of weaving is to maximize your character's APM.

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

You're misunderstanding the source of the shock. The shock happens when someone who is playing a video game to relax and have fun encounters someone who is playing a video game as a substitute for IRL employment/achievements. No one expects a random player to suddenly start channeling their supervisor from work, and they certainly don't enjoy it. You don't have to tell anyone that they're playing wrong. More often than not, they know, and they don't care. If they cared about your opinion or wanted your tips, they would ask for it. If they ask, feel free to constructively pipe up. Better yet, if you want to educate players, create guides and post them on YouTube, Reddit, and/or Discord. The players who care will seek them out and thank you for it. There's no need to shock anyone.

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I'm pretty sure most people in this thread are speaking in the context of savage+ raiding. "Relaxing" and "having fun" are a bit of a diminished priority in that environment, and a lot of the behaviors exhibited by your hypothetical casual player would be considered extremely poor etiquette if not toxic in the context of that setting.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

The real truth about why savage is hard does not involve DPS, as I can illustrate with this nameless discussion...

"Okay, you're DPS is not the problem. The problem is you got 4 damage downs during p1s that I still have no idea how you managed to survive. Additionally, you also had to get rezzed twice during p2s because you tried to soul sow during Kampeos Harmaa for "big numbers", and then proceeded to get face planted into a wall by standing too close to an exploding Lalafellen white mage wearing a bright pink piggy suite so people would not miss seeing him. Don't worry, you just need more practice."

Nameless person: "Okay I'll go practice on the target dummy!"

:D

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So much this! again its not about optimal dps. Its about everyone knowing the fight and making sure to do mechanics properly. This already causes enough drama llama on the community, I dont need to have people telling me "your damage sucks dude" thrown in when its really not the main issue with these fights.

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Originally Posted by Intellion

I mean, if a “casual” player:

-Still doesn’t know their job’s basic 1-2-3s by Lv. 90.
-Still gets ganked by every single mechanic, even simple ones introduced way back in ARR, at Lv. 90.
-Outright refuses to get better and instead throws a tantrum on the forums and demands for content to get nerfed the moment they get walled by literally anything in the MSQ.
-Responds to any form of criticism or feedback with nonsense like “YOU DON’T PAY MY SUB!” or “Help GMs! I’m being harassed!!!”

Then despite then things listed above, said player still sneaks into a Savage Clear/Farm PF thinking he’s entitled to a carry, then plays victim the moment he’s vote kicked by his seven other party members for wiping the raid over and over...

Then who’s really being the toxic one here? The casual, or the raiders? Really makes you think.

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How many players do any of those things, let alone all of them? Is it fair to cast the entire vast casual community as "toxic" because a handful of players (the bottom 1% of the bottom 1%) misbehave like this? Most casuals don't even set foot in a Savage clear, let alone demand a carry.

I assume OP is talking about savage/ex content? Because there's no need for parsers in normal content. I would even go as far as saying this thread (and the many other weekly threads about parsers) are evidence to why we DON'T need them. Look at the toxicity it brings just in discussions.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

The real truth about why savage is hard does not involve DPS, as I can illustrate with this nameless discussion...

"Okay, you're DPS is not the problem. The problem is you got 4 damage downs during p1s that I still have no idea how you managed to survive. Additionally, you also had to get rezzed twice during p2s because you tried to soul sow during Kampeos Harmaa for "big numbers", and then proceeded to get face planted into a wall by standing too close to an exploding Lalafellen white mage wearing a bright pink piggy suite so people would not miss seeing him. Don't worry, you just need more practice."

Nameless person: "Okay I'll go practice on the target dummy!"

:D

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There are times I wish that instead of the Hall of the Novice and Stone, Sea, Sky, we had something akin to the original Secret World's "Gatekeeper".

To explain a bit: in the original pre-reboot version of the Secret World, if you wanted to do Nightmare content (more or less TSW's equivalent to savage), there was an NPC entity called the Gatekeeper who would force you to complete a challenge first. The challenge always had to be done solo, and while it wasn't ever too complex, it definitely was less forgiving than the general non-Nightmare content.

The challenge could be tackled for DPS, Tank, or Healer. The DPS challenge required you to beat an enrage timer while also executing mechanics (some of which could one-shot you), including (if I recall correctly) ones that involved things like dealing with buffs on the boss or debuffs on yourself, not just ground AoEs and whatnot. I think the tank challenge required you to hold aggro to protect bystanders and withstand damage while executing mechanics, but as I hated tanking at the time I admit I never did that one.

The healer challenge -- which still amuses me to reflect back on -- gave you a party of NPC avatars the Gatekeeper created who were deliberately designed to be the worst sort of PUG. They would stand in the bad in the name of uptime, they would do mechanics completely wrong, etc. And as the healer, you had to keep these complete jackasses alive -- and of course you had do it it while also executing said mechanics correctly yourself, and (if I recall correctly, though I may be wrong on this) still doing enough damage to ensure you and the NPC Disaster Team could beat the Gatekeeper's enrage timer.

I don't know that FFXIV needs a Gatekeeper that you have to pass in order to queue into savage. But I do think something like that -- something that forced you to do more than just hit a stationary training dummy -- would be a far more valuable tool for self-improvement than what we have now. Like, you have to beat the calculated DPS check for this fight while also moving out of the bad, or keeping this obnoxious NPC alive, or whatever.

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Originally Posted by Intellion

Why yes, I'm a gray parser who dunks on other gray parsers, why do you ask?

Jokes aside though, that's another reason why I support an official in-game performance meter.


EW is actually the first time I've dove into Savage (before, I only tackled Extreme at most), and it's going pretty well so far.

For what it's worth, I did enough practice runs of P1S/P2S to execute all the fight mechanics perfectly, and managed to squeeze out just enough DPS to avoid hitting enrage.
Yet, my results could be much, much better despite me already clearing, and my only options right now for real-time evaluation is ACT, which I cannot get to work on my computer for the life of me, and even if I did, it's still a gray area at best, meaning the chances of getting a crackdown for it isn't exactly zero.


I know FFlogs is a thing, but it only seems to record performances after a clear of a certain boss, meaning that there's no way to know how your personal results were during a wipe, or when you're just wailing on a striking dummy. If there is a way to see that in FFlogs, I don't know how. I'm not good with these things. Regardless, SE should just give us an official in-game performance checker of sorts, so that I can finally have more real-time feedback of my performance without resorting to sketchy third-party tools that are technically still against ToS. If I get kicked from a party for not meeting their desired parses, oh well. To me, that's just a sign that I need to practice more, so I'll just get better until I'm good enough for said party. Or I'll make my own. No big deal. :/

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Check out xivanalysis, you can load up fflogs on there and it will tell you quite a bit about that pull like if you overcapped resources, weaving errors, etc. Open up that site, copy paste the link from fflogs and then select your name. It has information based on your job like bloodweapon usage for example and a general timeline over the fight.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

I'm pretty sure most people in this thread are speaking in the context of savage+ raiding. "Relaxing" and "having fun" are a bit of a diminished priority in that environment, and a lot of the behaviors exhibited by your hypothetical casual player would be considered extremely poor etiquette if not toxic in the context of that setting.

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But I was replying to this guy who specifically called out all max level players:

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Originally Posted by Euphares

You quite literally have zero way to tell if you are playing good or bad, the game doesn't help you or challenge you in a way that would make you rethink your rotation. Someone could play Ice-only BLM until max level because the game won't ever tell you that's wrong, or have you fail because you are spamming Ice spells only.

This is a serious problem, because the moment someone DOES tell you that you are playing wrong, its a big shock, and a lot of people don't handle this shock very well. But can you blame either person? It sucks having people who don't pull their weight constantly hold a group hostage because no one can say anything to them. And it sucks trying to learn and feeling lost/overwhelmed because you have to go off the game to learn how to be better in the game.

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My point was that they're projecting their own emotions onto the situations. The typical player doesn't feel "lost/overwhelmed" because their DPS is bad. The typical player doesn't even know their DPS is bad. There's the perception of a problem that doesn't exist. If a player feels bad about their DPS, they already have the resources to improve it if they want. Frustration is misplaced when it's leveled against a player who doesn't care. I agree that having such a player in a savage group is a source of frustration, but as I've said time and again, most casuals don't even touch savage+. If you're running savage content with players who behave that way, the problem lies in poor leadership, not in general player behavior. There are already remedies to address that situation that don't involve built-in parsers.

The problem with building the parser into the game is that the expectation of optimal performance creeps into all aspects of the game. In WoW, for example, you even see players kicked from the lowest level dungeons for underperformance. We don't need or want that in this game, too. Many have voiced their opinion that the point of the leveling experience should be preparation for savage content. I vehemently disagree. The point should be fun. Most players don't find savage content to be fun.

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Originally Posted by Lium

I assume OP is talking about savage/ex content? Because there's no need for parsers in normal content. I would even go as far as saying this thread (and the many other weekly threads about parsers) are evidence to why we DON'T need them. Look at the toxicity it brings just in discussions.

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Think OP is talking about savage. Extremes have such a long enrage timer, if your seeing it multiple people mustve been fresh with a bunch of deaths or people afk mid run. Which doesnt require a parser to understand why you couldn't beat enrage.

P1S and P2S are similar in that regard having a low DPS check thus invalidating a parser. As long as your group is alive and is not taking multiple damage downs you should be able to clear without much need of a parser even with people who dont understand their class and people who play overally safe. It's only when you start getting into P3S + where the dps check becomes more demanding and the realization that not every clear party is capable of clearing the instance even with near "perfect play" (deathless no damage downs). Instances like this is why an ingame way to identify performance could be helpful, but given the state of the community the parser would the "source" of toxicity. Bad players will learn to blame the system for their inability to clear higher content. And any ingame criticism could be labeled as harassment depending on how the person perceives it.

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Originally Posted by Kanella

Think OP is talking about savage. Extremes have such a long enrage timer, if your seeing it multiple people mustve been fresh with a bunch of deaths or people afk mid run. Which doesnt require a parser to understand why you couldn't beat enrage.

P1S and P2S are similar in that regard having a low DPS check thus invalidating a parser. As long as your group is alive and is not taking multiple damage downs you should be able to clear without much need of a parser even with people who dont understand their class and people who play overally safe. It's only when you start getting into P3S + where the dps check becomes more demanding and the realization that not every clear party is capable of clearing the instance even with near "perfect play" (deathless no damage downs). Instances like this is why an ingame way to identify performance could be helpful, but given the state of the community the parser would the "source" of toxicity. Bad players will learn to blame the system for their inability to clear higher content. And any ingame criticism could be labeled as harassment depending on how the person perceives it.

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and at the end of the day, nobody wins. Its better to keep parsing as an outside game thing where the option is there for those who reeeeally care about dps performance. I heard SE doesnt actively go around searching for people who have that add-on as long as you dont bring it up anyway. Its fine the way it is.

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

-snip-.

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1. Okay great, I'm playing a melee and I just sit at wall spamming my ranged attack until I know its SUPER SAFE then I use my buffs willy nilly and clip all my gcd's during burst windows. See how ridiculous that sounds?

I don't know why the idea that playing optimally = greedy is so common, its really asinine. Playing optimally just means that you don't completely waste your damage by doing very basic things such as buff alignment and proper GCD usage. If every player sandbagged to do mechanics, nothing high end in the game would be clearable until an egregious gear creep occured. To do high-end content while it is relevant, you need to be able to do both mechanics and decent damage, end of story.


2. How can there be an in-game tutor if the devs themselves have no idea what that optimal rotation is? A parser isn't inherently a toxic or malicious tool, it just displays data from the combat log visually.

And no, you don't need Discord for Extreme or Savages, a lot of players clear these through PF. Which is where the frustration comes from.

Normal raids and Alliance raids have DPS checks, hell even some dungeons have DPS checks. Its just apart of the game. And I've seen failure in all three. The problem isn't that its impossible to overcome terrible dps, the problem is that it happens at all for a very dumb reason. If the XIV commnuity really is one public meter away from becoming a cesspool, then it wasn't a very nice community to begin with and I think most people on this game need a reality check.


3. Everytime this topic comes up you guys like to project onto people who care about performance. If you don't care about how you perform when grouped with others, you aren't a casual, you're just negligent and selfish. I know people who play this game for < 8 hours a week that still asked me for help with practicing a basic rotation because they didn't want to be a drag on the group. The implication that someone can't both relax and enjoy the game AND perform at least on an acceptable level is asinine and makes you look really goofy.

If you are going to queue for group content that involves other random people and they're spending time to get the dungeon done, there is and should be an expectation to pull your weight and participate in an appropriate manner. That isn't hardcore or toxic, its just called being polite. If you fail to do this, you should be called out for it because anyone can meet this standard by just taking 10 minutes to think about their play.

The suggestion that someone can join a dungeon and just single-target/auto-attack their way through the entire thing, and that they're entitled to do so at the expense of three other people is quite frankly stupid as hell. If everyone played like that, things would be miserable. If you want to play like that, find three or seven other people to consent to that playstyle and leave the rest of us alone.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

So much this! again its not about optimal dps. Its about everyone knowing the fight and making sure to do mechanics properly. This already causes enough drama llama on the community, I dont need to have people telling me "your damage sucks dude" thrown in when its really not the main issue with these fights.

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Oh and my problem is being too obsessed with clearing p2s because I made it to 2% enrage, and have spent countless days now in "clear" groups, that are overconfident and end up proving everyone in the group needs practice, including the people who supposedly have it cleared and are coming back to help.

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Originally Posted by Kanella

Instances like this is why an ingame way to identify performance could be helpful, but given the state of the community the parser would the "source" of toxicity.

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As I've said in other threads, I get the impression the devs believe that if they put a parser officially in-game, some people would take that as permission to harass people using said parser. Basically going "If the devs didn't want me to tell the black mage he sucks because his DPS is almost a negative number, they wouldn't have put a tool in the game that tells me exactly how bad the black mage sucks!"

Unfortunately, my own past experience in the games industry -- and, y'know, the whole "generally existing on the modern internet" thing -- suggests that the devs are also probably right.

Or, to put it another way, "Some players may be inclined to lob spitballs at each other regardless of what we do, but that doesn't mean we need to encourage it by handing them the paper and the straw."

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Originally Posted by Euphares

I don't know why the idea that playing optimally = greedy is so common, its really asinine. Playing optimally just means that you don't completely waste your damage by doing very basic things such as buff alignment and proper GCD usage.

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"Playing optimally" needs to account for situation, too. If you are doing your rotation correctly, managing solid damage, etc., that's great. If you do all that but, in order to avoid downtime (which is, obviously, not strictly speaking "optimal") you choose to ignore mechanics, then that crosses the line into greed.

I've seen some very high-DPS players in PF for current savage. I have also seen a number of players who, to use a very simple example mechanic, refuse to disengage from the boss for aetherial shackles in P1S and thus kill the entire party; it can be a black mage refusing to leave ley lines they still have a couple seconds left on, it can be melee refusing to leave the boss' butt long enough to go to their shackle spot, whatever. The first folks -- the ones with high DPS -- are playing optimally. The second folks, the ones who refuse to react to the mechanic in a timely manner, cross the line into greed; they value their 'optimal DPS' over the group's survival.

There is a non-zero overlap between those two groups; many of the folks I have seen greed in PF are doing impressive DPS... right up until they kill everyone. (Whether that's with P1S shackles or by dying in P2S right before Channeled Overflow or whatever.)

I think the reason "playing optimally" sometimes gets conflated with "greed" is that the latter group often justifies the behavior as "I'm not greeding, I'm just trying to keep uptime and play my job optimally! Healers should adjust!" (Side note: We cannot adjust if the failed mechanic basically one-shots the party, so please do the dang mechanic. We all want to play our jobs with at least moderate efficiency and skill in savage-level content, but all your DPS means nothing if you wipe the group and don't clear!)

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Originally Posted by Euphares

2. How can there be an in-game tutor if the devs themselves have no idea what that optimal rotation is? A parser isn't inherently a toxic or malicious tool, it just displays data from the combat log visually.

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To reference my old hypothetical design for a non-toxic in-game parser, you could easily have an NPC combat instructor associated with the Scions whose Echo gift is to perceive another's recent battles. On the server side, it would store off your recent runs of any higher-end content (extremes, etc.) and then you could go to P'ahrsurr Tia and he could tell you, "I can perceive that your combat efficiency was better than 57% of other adventurers who fought similar battles." (I.e., a parse percentage akin to FFLogs.) He could then also give you advice, akin to XIVanalysis, like "I also see that you rarely use your bubble of Asylum; it can be worthwhile to drop on the tank at your side in future adventures, even if it's not going to heal anyone else."

This gives people information which can help them measure their performance relative to others (akin to FFLogs) and a path to take towards improvement (akin to XIVanalysis). But since it's an NPC you would go to speak to after the battle and get the report personally, it would be less likely to be wielded for purposes of toxicity.

Obviously many people would still use ACT, FFLogs, and XIVanalysis -- especially as those tools are very useful for breaking down an overall fight timeline and seeing where a static can improve as a group -- but an approach like this would at least give folks on Playstation and such an option with an in-game tool.

I really hope this isn't about casual content.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

I've seen some very high-DPS players in PF for current savage. I have also seen a number of players who, to use a very simple example mechanic, refuse to disengage from the boss for aetherial shackles in P1S and thus kill the entire party;

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I'm guessing rather than not disengaging, they were just late to their position or someone else was improperly positioned. Could still be because they're tunneling on their rotation or something, but aetherial Shackles should be completely safe to resolve in melee range of the boss.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

"quadruple weaving"

there are no dps checks for anything below extreme. You can autoattack normal raid bosses and regular trials to death.

Also in PF groups I'm happy to see someone have food at all, "wrong" or not.

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"there are no dps checks for anything below extreme."

The Chrysalis Meteor Phase
Steps Of Faith
Ultima
The Limitless Blue (Hard)
First boss of Dun Scaith
Anything with a Duty Gauge i.e Titania add phase
Ruby Weapon Phase 1
etc etc

Theirs plenty of dps checks normally they are easy however if you have 8 people who "auto attack" or dont know their job by that point you aren't clearing it.

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Originally Posted by Lium

I would even go as far as saying this thread (and the many other weekly threads about parsers) are evidence to why we DON'T need them. Look at the toxicity it brings just in discussions.

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because some people shit themselves over and over at the mere mention of a parser, it means that it's a bad idea?

euphares said it perfectly

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Originally Posted by Euphares

If the XIV commnuity really is one public meter away from becoming a cesspool, then it wasn't a very nice community to begin with and I think most people on this game need a reality check.

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JP style of not meeting a DPS check tends to be not to call anyone out, abandon duty, and hopefully re-queue RF with better players.

Things like P3 savage tend to be fairly obvious when you are not meeting a check, someone constantly dying before birdies, coming in a late floor with i570 gear, etc.

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Originally Posted by technole

JP style of not meeting a DPS check tends to be not to call anyone out, abandon duty, and hopefully re-queue RF with better players.

Things like P3 savage tend to be fairly obvious when you are not meeting a check, someone constantly dying before birdies, coming in a late floor with i570 gear, etc.

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I was just going to ask this. Is the Japanese community really pushing for parsers? I don't know because I've never played on a JP server.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

Going to be frank, Savage is both amazing content and also the most questionable in terms of community health. It feels like a necessary thing to help justify crafting or pushing crafted high iLvL gear. The only reason I don't like it is due to the hard enrage feeling really artificial or out of place, which thankfully the game does away with by saying it's all in our characters head and not really part of the game world.

There's really only two ways to put a limit on a fight: Either a hard enrage that pulls the ground out from under the players, or finite resources at the players disposal to overcome the challenge. The latter would definitely be better than a dps check since typically a finite resource is accountable in the game world itself. It's very easy to tell if someone runs out of healing potions or if they run out of ammo. For DPS checks the only thing someone can do is check if people are getting damage downs or die repeatedly unless they have a tool to utilize for it. Plus even if someone did have a tool, the information needed to figure out why said person didn't perform can be a myriad of reasons.

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Resource death isnt any different than an enrage. Resource death turns into the same finger pointing game because instead of seeing if the dps is high enough you gotta see if the dps per resource expended is high enough. Its the same problem and would require external tools to solve. Because the same idiot who cant do his 123 would be doing the same thing while healers are running out of mana.

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Originally Posted by Lium

I was just going to ask this. Is the Japanese community really pushing for parsers? I don't know because I've never played on a JP server.

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JP mostly plays on console so I seriously doubt they can user parsers, much less want them.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

I'm guessing rather than not disengaging, they were just late to their position or someone else was improperly positioned. Could still be because they're tunneling on their rotation or something, but aetherial Shackles should be completely safe to resolve in melee range of the boss.

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Generally their explanation, so far as I've seen in my PF adventures on my alt, has been "I wasn't going to move before I got in my positionals!" as to why someone with a far chain was standing due south of the boss (and thus tethering to the inner players instead of the outer). Which, functionally, is "tunneling on their rotation" as you suggest, just doing so consciously and deliberately and aware of the potential consequences. Though a surprising number are also evidently unaware you can still be in melee range and resolve the far tethers.

(Also, for the love of the Twelve, you can hit a rear positional from the intercardinal. And for any situation you're uncertain about, there's True North. Please freakin' use it.)

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Originally Posted by Euphares

1. Okay great, I'm playing a melee and I just sit at wall spamming my ranged attack until I know its SUPER SAFE then I use my buffs willy nilly and clip all my gcd's during burst windows. See how ridiculous that sounds?

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Yes. Anything sounds ridiculous when taken to extremes. There's a happy medium between going out of your way to sabotage your own DPS and pursuing optimal DPS at all costs.

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Originally Posted by Euphares

I don't know why the idea that playing optimally = greedy is so common, its really asinine. Playing optimally just means that you don't completely waste your damage by doing very basic things such as buff alignment and proper GCD usage.

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Playing optimally means that you spend time that could have been spent enjoying yourself in a game on doing homework and downloading third party tools. Some players make that choice, and that's fine. Some players just want to play the game, and that's fine, too.

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Originally Posted by Euphares

If every player sandbagged to do mechanics, nothing high end in the game would be clearable until an egregious gear creep occured. To do high-end content while it is relevant, you need to be able to do both mechanics and decent damage, end of story.

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There's a difference between deliberately sandbagging and simply not playing the game as if it were your livelihood. I agree that the most high end content is unclearable to most players. That's as it should be. I agree that to do high end content you need to do both mechanics and decent damage. I disagree that every player should be doing high end content. Most players don't want to do it, nor should they. If I wanted to play a game that shifted all in-game progression into high end content, I'd still be playing WoW.

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Originally Posted by Euphares

2. How can there be an in-game tutor if the devs themselves have no idea what that optimal rotation is? A parser isn't inherently a toxic or malicious tool, it just displays data from the combat log visually.

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The devs know what it is. How do you think content gets balanced? The skills are deliberately designed with a rotation in mind. That's why most of your GCD skills trigger procs that boost the potency of the next GCD skill that was intended to be in the rotation. No one said the parser was inherently toxic or malicious. The malice is in the majority of players, and the parser is the ideal tool to bring it out. To quote YoshiP on ACT:

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That system will be the root of bullying. I'm 100% confident in that... I know you'll see this in party finder: "Only join if you can prove DPS XXX amount." We never want that to happen. Sometimes you go in a dungeon after taking a break from the game. Your item level might not be as high as others' that have been playing. It just becomes like that. It's inevitable for people to start to crave efficiency. I personally don't enjoy games that are all based off efficiency.

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I wholeheartedly agree with that.

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Originally Posted by Euphares

And no, you don't need Discord for Extreme or Savages, a lot of players clear these through PF. Which is where the frustration comes from.

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If you're not using Discord for Extreme or Savages, then prepare to be frustrated. It's common sense. You don't have to take frustration for your own mistake out on others who ignorantly joined a Savage group without realizing everything it entailed. We don't need a built-in addon to help you abuse players who are just trying to have a good time.

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Originally Posted by Euphares

Normal raids and Alliance raids have DPS checks, hell even some dungeons have DPS checks. Its just apart of the game. And I've seen failure in all three. The problem isn't that its impossible to overcome terrible dps, the problem is that it happens at all for a very dumb reason. If the XIV commnuity really is one public meter away from becoming a cesspool, then it wasn't a very nice community to begin with and I think most people on this game need a reality check.

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And those DPS checks are laughably low. I can count the number of times it's happened to me running duty finder content multiple times a day almost every day in the last year on one hand. Like I said earlier, those failures were, in every case, a result of players not even knowing mechanics. It's kind of hard to hit the DPS check with half the players in the raid are out of commission for half the duration of the DPS check. In every such case I've seen, explaining the mechanics so that we're not trying to clear the DPS check with 9 floor inspectors in tow solves the problem. I think you're the one in need of a reality check here.

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Originally Posted by Euphares

3. Everytime this topic comes up you guys like to project onto people who care about performance. If you don't care about how you perform when grouped with others, you aren't a casual, you're just negligent and selfish.

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I'm not sure what you think I'm projecting on you. Some people simply don't have the reflexes, coordination, experience, or resources to perform at an optimal level. That's how it is. It's not a matter of being selfish. It's a matter of understanding that this is a video game, not a job. Unlike a job, there is no penalty for not meeting your numbers. I'll sleep fine knowing that we would have cleared that boss a few seconds sooner if only I had had my 20 year old self's reflexes. If you want to enter the world first race, join a world first guild, and go hard. Just don't expect everyone else to be like you.

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Originally Posted by Euphares

If you are going to queue for group content that involves other random people and they're spending time to get the dungeon done, there is and should be an expectation to pull your weight and participate in an appropriate manner. That isn't hardcore or toxic, its just called being polite. If you fail to do this, you should be called out for it because anyone can meet this standard by just taking 10 minutes to think about their play.

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I think we agree on that. I just think that there's a huge difference in expectations between us. As far as I'm concerned, if you're not AFKing and you're making an effort to learn and follow mechanics, you're doing your part. I don't think anyone is a jerk just because they're not performing like a world-first guild member.

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Originally Posted by Euphares

The suggestion that someone can join a dungeon and just single-target/auto-attack their way through the entire thing, and that they're entitled to do so at the expense of three other people is quite frankly stupid as hell. If everyone played like that, things would be miserable.

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I've never seen anyone single-target/auto-attack their way through content. Maybe because I don't use a parser. Your rage over this non-issue is precisely the reason they will never build a parser into the game. I play to the best of my ability, and I hope everyone else does the same. Yesterday I ran Cutter's Cry with three sprouts, and two of them were on the floor for three quarters of the chimera fight because they didn't know to get away from the ram abilities and get close for the dragon abilities, and neither the tank nor I could heal them. So in the end the tank and I two-manned the boss. Was I salty? Heck, no! It was the most fun I've had in a long time! The other two players learned something new, and they were grateful. I enjoyed my commendation and moved on. Not once did I think that the run would have been better if I had posted parser numbers every five minutes and used them to justify vote kicks.

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

Yesterday I ran Cutter's Cry with three sprouts, and two of them were on the floor for three quarters of the chimera fight because they didn't know to get away from the ram abilities and get close for the dragon abilities, and neither the tank nor I could heal them. So in the end the tank and I two-manned the boss. Was I salty? Heck, no! It was the most fun I've had in a long time! The other two players learned something new, and they were grateful.

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Brief digression, but I always like to give sprouts in there a tip that "RAM means SCRAM, while DRAGON means you should DRAG yourself IN close". I.e., Ram means "get the heck away", dragon means "go hug the chimera".

I have a color-based alternative mnemonic I can pull out as well -- "If it's violet, stay by it. If it's blue, better shoo!" -- but I prefer to teach "Ram means Scram" because there are about 8 billion chimera/garms/whatever in this game, and literally only the one in Cutter's Cry uses color-based toast notifications about eye color, while all of them -- including the one in Cutter's Cry -- use "Ram's Voice" and "Dragon's Voice" casts.

So "Ram means Scram" will serve them as a sufficient mnemonic through the entire rest of the game, rather than just that one chimera.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

"quadruple weaving"

there are no dps checks for anything below extreme. You can autoattack normal raid bosses and regular trials to death.

Also in PF groups I'm happy to see someone have food at all, "wrong" or not.

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I wonder though, since the lockout is 90 mins, if all people just auto attack the normal trial/raid bosses how long it will take before the boss dies.




But yeah you can use that tool. Remember back when the first ultimate was released? Yeah yoshi P was linking streams of the world first race teams and well they had parsers on their screen. Also more recently the first 3 teams to clear P4S that he tweeted and congratulated, those are all parsing players as well.

Just don't harras people with it and you be good.


And while I don't really want to recommend this because 'ghosting' can make an individual feel sad, you can just kick people from the group without a word (not saying anything is actually safer for you because if you would complain about lack of dps you could get a ban), you can just use the 'difference in playstyle' and you be good.

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Originally Posted by Fhaerron

I wonder though, since the lockout is 90 mins, if all people just auto attack the normal trial/raid bosses how long it will take before the boss dies.

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There was actually a speedkill group that did a 1 hour 22 minute and 35 second kill of P1N, where the damage was almost exclusively auto attacks, though I think they also spent substantial amounts of time NOT hitting the boss.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

There was actually a speedkill group that did a 1 hour 22 minute and 35 second kill of P1N, where the damage was almost exclusively auto attacks, though I think they also spent substantial amounts of time NOT hitting the boss.

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I feel this should not be called a "speedkill" but a "snailkill".

You can't talk about it because MMO players have brainworms that make them unable to talk about parsers without turning into shit flinging apes. Like, yeah if people are failing a DPS check and we can improve our rotation we can talk about it. But that's never how the conversation goes. More often than not you get someone, in the middle of a normal dungeon or alliance raid, screaming about how everyone else sucks because they're playing a level 45 monk suboptimally and telling them to kill themselves for it.

I agree with you regarding the aggro-meter, let everyone be mad their multitude of third-party programs give wrong information.

The issue with parsers is they don’t take from the game-server, they take data from the client. THERE’S THE BIG HINT WHY PLAYERS DON’T CARE ABOUT YOUR PARSER. ALSO IT’S A LITTLE CREEPY but maybe that last part is just me. Just comes off a little stalkerish, righ?

I think you’re doing it right, OP. People just want to defend their custom bs.