Its a shame Paladins have to be tanks. I understand.

Speaking as a black mage, I LOVE tanks who wall to wall pull. With an abundance of big boom AoEs, nothing gets me more excited than to see every critter in the room converged on one spot. "Let the fun BEGIN!"

By all means take the time to learn your role, and be clear to communicate that you're learning.
But if you're playing tank, you should be aiming for big pulls, as that serves the whole party. You all clear the content quicker and it's more interesting for healers and dps, and the tank quite frankly.
If you're not willing to learn to pull big, then tank isn't the role for you, at least not for dungeons.

I am sorry you have been experiencing toxic players. I myself just got DRK, PLD and WAR to level 50 after suffering from tankiety for years, and I ended up enjoying myself a lot more then expected. I honestly enjoy it alot more then healing, and I have been finding very little toxicity from other players. There was one or two times where misunderstandings caused issues (Healer left me to die because I misunderstood the AOE aspect of a dungeon… I am against letting people die personally, but I suppose I understand why they did it) but overall the vast majority of my fellow players where nice and understanding. I am in no way a good tank yet, I am always worried that I am not pulling enough/pulling too little and I have this habit of judging my performance via the commendations which I do not think is wise. But then again I am just a baby and in n time I hope my skill/intuition improves!

What you described is the harassment a lot of new tanks face, but it's not recent. This happened to me years before the "recent influx".

Low effort pulls get low effort from everyone else, probably because they're doing stuff with both eyes closed due to boredom.

Without being as absolute as the author, I also feel that the community has changed a bit since the WOW community arrived.

To be clear: I have played WOW. I know for a fact that there are a lot of lovely people in it. I also know that the wall-to-wall pull is not new to FF.

But there has been, recently, more and more behavior that I find "annoying". This ranges from the benign (not saying hello before starting the instance) to the more annoying (pulling when the tank is obviously a beginner / faster leaves after wipes).

These are flaws I used to see very rarely in Shadowbringer, and they seem to have become common in Endwalker. It is not excluded that I have just been lucky so far... But it would seem curious. Are there others like me? The vast majority of players on this topic seem to see no change, and that surprises me given my experience.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Merrigan

Without being as absolute as the author, I also feel that the community has changed a bit since the WOW community arrived.

To be clear: I have played WOW. I know for a fact that there are a lot of lovely people in it. I also know that the wall-to-wall pull is not new to FF.

But there has been, recently, more and more behavior that I find "annoying". This ranges from the benign (not saying hello before starting the instance) to the more annoying (pulling when the tank is obviously a beginner / faster leaves after wipes).

These are flaws I used to see very rarely in Shadowbringer, and they seem to have become common in Endwalker. It is not excluded that I have just been lucky so far... But it would seem curious. Are there others like me? The vast majority of players on this topic seem to see no change, and that surprises me given my experience.

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It was in game from 2013, like, cmon. Stop making WoW people out to be villains

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Originally Posted by Ashpd

It was in game from 2013, like, cmon. Stop making WoW people out to be villains

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"To be clear: I have played WOW. I know for a fact that there are a lot of lovely people in it. I also know that the wall-to-wall pull is not new to FF."

Please read.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Merrigan

"To be clear: I have played WOW. I know for a fact that there are a lot of lovely people in it. I also know that the wall-to-wall pull is not new to FF."

Please read.

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Quote:

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Without being as absolute as the author, I also feel that the community has changed a bit since the WOW community arrived. -

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ReRead Your words. I'm about everything you said in post. Leavers, not greeting in dungeon (mean cmon, useless thing, just enter and go).

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Originally Posted by Ashpd

ReRead Your words. I'm about everything you said in post. Leavers, not greeting in dungeon (mean cmon, useless thing, just enter and go).

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Sigh.

To rephrase my post (since you seem to be oddly offended by a question that was originally totally open-ended): I have noticed a change in player behavior. Considering that we've had a recent influx of community from a game with very different habits, there's a chance that it's related.

So I was asking, without any ulterior motive, if other people have experienced these same changes.

You also seem to be confusing an attack on the people playing a game with the habits one develops in a community. Saying that WOW players are more likely to leave, for example, doesn't mean that they are assholes: it's just more accepted behavior in that game.

Please stop raising your voice whenever this type of topic is brought up - all without trying to understand the tone of the post or its intent.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ddwarbird

This is the problem when we've had an influx of the WoW playerbase (which tends to be younger then the core FFXIV playerbase). Its why this game had such a wonderful community for so much longer as the game appealed to an older, more mature playerbase.

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If the FFXIV community was actually mature it wouldn't blame everything on WoW and WoW players all the time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ddwarbird

So I'm experiencing what it is like to be a tank and I have to say to all the tanks out there;

"I am sorry but you must have the patience of a saint"

Honestly, it is probably the role that gets the most abuse in the game. If you want to go slower because you are still learning how to tank and interrupt abilities, you get yelled at by DPS.

If you want to pull one group at a time, you get yelled at...

Its such a toxic experience, I am not surprised the Roulette wants tanks most of the time.

I wanted to level a Paladin because they have the coolest armour (In my opinion) but the toxic nature of tanking has REALLY put me off levelling one. The toxicity in this game has made a massive spike since we started getting a huge influx of WoW refugees here. Coincidence...?

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No this game has plenty of toxic players you've just been lying to your self or ignoring them. You have been listening to people talk about how amazing this games community is to much on youtube. It has always had toxic players and it always will just like any online game. Ignore people and learn to be a better pally, or stop playing pally those are your choices.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

No this game has plenty of toxic players

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But they can't be "openly" toxic ;) And if they try to be - report them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Merrigan

"To be clear: I have played WOW. I know for a fact that there are a lot of lovely people in it. I also know that the wall-to-wall pull is not new to FF."

Please read.

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Been playing since ARR (but only sticking around after HW) and FF14 has always been like you describe. Also been playing MMO's since UO/Everquest and certain behaviours were always there (the level of toxicity UO had before they finally did Felucca/Tremmel was something else), just happens that in older games you needed to socialise instead of having those very convenient DF/PF tools.

IMO MMO's are more social than ever, thanks to so many programs and platforms, but are not that apparent and usually isolated within their own communities.

Anyway, randoms are going to be random so if you are looking for certain type of experience is better to stick to players that share your ideas. Will be blunt: this is a "you" problem and no one else's (and by this I mean wanting a random to behave in a certain way). Online experiences are way more tamed and sanitized today's than before.

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Originally Posted by rewd

If the FFXIV community was actually mature it wouldn't blame everything on WoW and WoW players all the time.

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Or be so thin-skinned.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

Or be so thin-skinned.

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This is a common thing when people start pointing out toxic behavior.
Someone can simply suggest a different approach to something and people will take it as a personal attack.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Driavna

Been playing since ARR (but only sticking around after HW) and FF14 has always been like you describe. Also been playing MMO's since UO/Everquest and certain behaviours were always there (the level of toxicity UO had before they finally did Felucca/Tremmel was something else), just happens that in older games you needed to socialise instead of having those very convenient DF/PF tools.

IMO MMO's are more social than ever, thanks to so many programs and platforms, but are not that apparent and usually isolated within their own communities.

Anyway, randoms are going to be random so if you are looking for certain type of experience is better to stick to players that share your ideas. Will be blunt: this is a "you" problem and no one else's (and by this I mean wanting a random to behave in a certain way). Online experiences are way more tamed and sanitized today's than before.

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Ok. That's... actually really weird, 'cause I'm not lying when saying I had a great community experience in Shadowbringer - whithout leavers, full of patient players, and so on. It was almost as good as LOTRO, which is without any doubt the best community I ever experienced in a MMORPG.

Luck of the beginner, I guess.

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Originally Posted by Erinellza

Huh. I play on Chaos dc and no one yells at tanks who pull only 1 group of mobs. Is this a NA server thing or am I just lucky with my PUGs? 99% of the time I only see greetings.

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As someone who plays on Chaos, it is tolerated at low levels when tanks are still learning (but still someone may ask the tank to pull more or just "oooops" pull more themselves) and at low level. But I'm pretty sure that in high level dungeons that wouldn't fly quite well, since at that point your traning wheels should be off.

After playing this game for around a decade I either was extremely lucky or it's an attitude thing but I never had any real toxicity in dungeons then maybe a handful of instances. But that usually was someone being just an idiot and directing their anger towards everyone.
It took a while for me to pick up tanking. I don't think I started doing so before the end of heavensward but because I mainly healed I was familiar with pull patterns in most dungeons. Nonetheless did I stick to smaller pulls when doing a dungeon for the first time as tank and every time I'd say so in chat beforehand.
"Hey I am new to tanking. Is it okay if I take it slow this run?" And I never got any shit for it. And that is still true today. A friend of mine recently started this game and I don't recall a single instance where telling the group that he is new and is still trying to get a hang of things has turned into critique. Either the rest of the group stays silent and just does their thing. Or you get people who are more familiar with tanking giving advice.

But obviously this is a big community so I am not dismissing that there is toxicity in the game. I am sure there are people who are being harassed for being new. But that is definitely not the norm.
So my advice would be to be open about your nervousness when tanking and that you need to go at a slower pace than people might be used to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sharknado

But they can't be "openly" toxic ;) And if they try to be - report them.

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Reporting is childish

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

Reporting is childish

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Is it though? There is no reason to let people act out in ways that are inherently disrespectful.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

Reporting is childish

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Either you keep the community at some level of public manners or you get a runaway effect of elitism and hostility.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Miiu

After playing this game for around a decade I either was extremely lucky or it's an attitude thing but I never had any real toxicity in dungeons then maybe a handful of instances. But that usually was someone being just an idiot and directing their anger towards everyone.
It took a while for me to pick up tanking. I don't think I started doing so before the end of heavensward but because I mainly healed I was familiar with pull patterns in most dungeons. Nonetheless did I stick to smaller pulls when doing a dungeon for the first time as tank and every time I'd say so in chat beforehand.
"Hey I am new to tanking. Is it okay if I take it slow this run?" And I never got any shit for. And that is still true today. A friend of mine recently started this game and I don't recall a single instance where telling the group that he is new and is still trying to get a hang of things has turned into critique. Either the rest of the group stays silent and just does their thing. Or you get people who are more familiar with tanking giving advice.

But obviously this is a big community so I am not dismissing that there is toxicity in the game. I am sure there are people who are being harassed for being new. But that is definitely not the norm.
So my advice would be to be open about your nervousness when tanking and that you need to got at a slower pace than people might be used to.

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That. Just be like you, not like people who immediately starts screaming and bellowing that they have a tank anxiety (or how that myth called?) but were silent at the beginning of the dungeon. Being polite and having a little conversation with the group. Key to success

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Originally Posted by ddwarbird

Its called, "consideration of others" but I suppose that isn't something most people today wouldn't know about. Its how you foster a sense of community and understanding which is a lost art it seems.

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LMFAO, the irony. Consideration of others goes both ways.

OP's behavior is the issue, done and done. Take a look at the condescension in their second post ("whining bunch of children") and the true nature of this person becomes apparent.

Personally, I learned not to belittle people (even in the face of something detrimental to my person or experience) when I was quite young. It seems the concept escapes even those who feel they've completed the "maturing" process.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ashpd

That. Just be like you, not like people who immediately starts screaming and bellowing that they have a tank anxiety (or how that myth called?) but were silent at the beginning of the dungeon. Being polite and having a little conversation with the group. Key to success

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It's actually amazing to see how many people complains about other's habits - without being able to express their concerns BEFORE the run starts.

Like, there is a chat for this - use it, it's not only to say "Hi" and "gg".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Merrigan

It's actually amazing to see how many people complains about other's habits - without being able to express their concerns BEFORE the run starts.

Like, there is a chat for this - use it, it's not only to say "Hi" and "gg".

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Definitely. As someone who had trouble speaking up for himself as a kid I can relate to people not wanting to say anything. Or feel like maybe hiding the chat and just doing their thing without being exposed to critique and avoid all confrontation.
But that is definitely not the way to go. What I learned in public speaking lessons is that honesty or just the attempt to communicate goes a long way to make yourself more sympathetic.
Doing your own thing in a vacuum without any form of communication can make you seem as standoff-ish or just rude even if that is not your intention.

Even if it is uncomfortable talking to the rest of the group and making your situation known in this game is always the best approach to take. You might not always be successful with it. You might meet people who are jerks or someone who had the worst day and is on edge but nonetheless it'll do you good in the long run.

Plain and simple, it's a royal pain to just be DPSing down just 2 mobs. Most AoE skills are optimal with 3+ mobs. So playing subpar as a tank, makes the others also play subpar and you won't make many friends doing that.

I empathize with the OP, but would make one small suggestion. If possible, get a healer friend who plays moderately well (or even better, very well) and go to your highest level dungeon and just pull every single thing you possibly can. Trust in that healer to keep you alive as you cycle your CDs and memorize (if you haven't yet) the tankbusters for bosses. After a few runs, you should have no fear left at all and be safe in the knowledge that you can safely W2W pull with a good healer and decent dps. For most, I think it is just having not tried and being worried of failure that makes people anxious of big pulls. Just try it a few times and you'll see ^^

As a main tank 2.0 on I've never had issues. The 1st pull lets me know how the party will do for the rest of the run.
If I can go all out or not.

In all my years I've may have had 10 comment pull faster and less then 5 people leave the instance.
I've had just as many I'm new don't pull to big of a group.
The true is as tank you set the pace if dps or healers don't like your pace. They have a few options.
Leave,

Play tank next time.
Kick you and wait 5 to 15 man's for a tank to pop.(which is a lot slower then just finishing with you).
The time difference between got all out and going slow is maybe 2 to 4 mins in a 15 min run and a single wipe make slow faster.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by technole

Plain and simple, it's a royal pain to just be DPSing down just 2 mobs. Most AoE skills are optimal with 3+ mobs. So playing subpar as a tank, makes the others also play subpar and you won't make many friends doing that.

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A dps can tank a single group, so if the tank isnt multi pulling, better take a third dps instead tbh.

Dont know how running through 2 packs of mobs, pressing 2 aoe buttons and pressing cooldowns one by one can make people feel so much anxiety... oh wait... maybe becasue of all the casuals saying that tanks should be the one to lead and stuff :^)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by technole

Plain and simple, it's a royal pain to just be DPSing down just 2 mobs. Most AoE skills are optimal with 3+ mobs. So playing subpar as a tank, makes the others also play subpar and you won't make many friends doing that.

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Its not just DPS that can aoe 3 or 9 just as quickly

Tank CDs work waaay better in dungeons if you 2-3 separate pack pull . If you pull just the pack of 2-4 mobs in front of you , use your def cds , then by the fourth pack of mobs all your cds are on cd because you blew them in small pulls and you have to slow up or the healer has to spam heal because you cant mitigate at all.

In dungeons like Stone Vigil (lvl 41) thats can be a death sentence , especially if your tank/healer is under geared , a stray patrol dragon runs in to the fray and your poor healer has low mana due to the limited tools at those levels

I wish Tanks were more versatile in this game.

This is a thinly veiled self-therapy session. OP talks about how he hates that people inconvenience him and dont do exactly what he wants. While the others like him hate him for being slow inconveniencing them and not doing exactly what they want.

It seems OP hates people just like him. And is here to complain about himself by proxy. Everyone has that friend who is completely narcissistic that very loudly hates people as narcissistic as they are.

I'll be honest, the closest thing it even came close to tank toxicity was when a mentor asked "Are we single pulling this entire dungeon?" and I said "Yes. It's my first time here" and they just left during my first time in Shisui of the Violet Tides a few months ago. Tanking is not hard at all in this game. Also, here's a tip that I wish I knew before reaching Stormblood, in dungeons healers do 90% of the heavy lifting, on ARR dungeons you can pull about 3 packs depending how good your healer is, Heavensward forward you can just go for wall to wall pulls, all you have to do is use your cooldowns on a rotation, the healers in general are more than capable to keep you alive through that, don't be afraid to pull more than one pack unless your healer is struggling.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ddwarbird

As far as I know, its a bannable offense and I think SE should crack down on this behaviour considerably. There is a reason its banned and you shouldn't ignore rules just because you personally don't like them.

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Yes it's against the TOS, and yes they can ban people who use them, but they can't scan your computer, and they have chosen not to install invasive software to scan your PC while playing. (Note almost every Korean MMO does this)

The only people who've ever been banned using a Parse is when they get on chat and ridicule others for not meeting their expectations. Which falls in several bannable offenses.

The dev team probably use parsers at home, just like almost every raider in the game. The use isn't to judge others but to better the self. Which is not a bannable offense, it falls into the infamous grey zone, not specifically allowed, but not specifically bannable either. It falls into the same boat as G-Shaders it's a client side program which allows for you to interact with game information in a different way then the client can do naturally. The TOS has an exception in the rules that somewhat allows for this kind of data manipulation as long as the program doesn't change game files.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ddwarbird

So I'm experiencing what it is like to be a tank and I have to say to all the tanks out there;

"I am sorry but you must have the patience of a saint"

Honestly, it is probably the role that gets the most abuse in the game. If you want to go slower because you are still learning how to tank and interrupt abilities, you get yelled at by DPS.

If you want to pull one group at a time, you get yelled at...

Its such a toxic experience, I am not surprised the Roulette wants tanks most of the time.

I wanted to level a Paladin because they have the coolest armour (In my opinion) but the toxic nature of tanking has REALLY put me off levelling one. The toxicity in this game has made a massive spike since we started getting a huge influx of WoW refugees here. Coincidence...?

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Things that never happened period.

If you are new to the game, role,etc the first thing you should say in the party chat " Hello Guys, first time tanking or doing this dungeon". Nobody will complain at you unless a real douche but that's probably 1% chance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Miiu

After playing this game for around a decade I either was extremely lucky or it's an attitude thing but I never had any real toxicity in dungeons then maybe a handful of instances. But that usually was someone being just an idiot and directing their anger towards everyone.
It took a while for me to pick up tanking. I don't think I started doing so before the end of heavensward but because I mainly healed I was familiar with pull patterns in most dungeons. Nonetheless did I stick to smaller pulls when doing a dungeon for the first time as tank and every time I'd say so in chat beforehand.
"Hey I am new to tanking. Is it okay if I take it slow this run?" And I never got any shit for it. And that is still true today. A friend of mine recently started this game and I don't recall a single instance where telling the group that he is new and is still trying to get a hang of things has turned into critique. Either the rest of the group stays silent and just does their thing. Or you get people who are more familiar with tanking giving advice.

But obviously this is a big community so I am not dismissing that there is toxicity in the game. I am sure there are people who are being harassed for being new. But that is definitely not the norm.
So my advice would be to be open about your nervousness when tanking and that you need to go at a slower pace than people might be used to.

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I call BS, I just recently had two people get in a whole fight over mechanics in a learning party for p2s. It led to no one understanding what we were doing, and them both leaving the group. More than likely you have never done anything through the PF. If you are just running dungeons most people don't even talk cause no communication is really needed. If some one is complaining in a dungeon they are just petty dungeons are such simple quick easy content, if you are complaining about it I have no cares. Take them to the final boss of the dungeon then vote kick them so they learn a lesson, and there time is wasted.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

humour me; what's there to learn about tanking that's new after lvl 30? ignore DPS abilities you gain, I'm talking about tank exclusive things
because the role is literally the same at lvl 16 as it is at lvl 90: pulling as much as possible, pressing your CDs and DPSing the mobs down that have aggro on you

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Knowing how/when to deploy mitigation, which ones for which pulls, is a little bit trial and error. If it wasn't, every tank (player) would be equally as good, and they're not. Many don't even know what a powerful mitigation tool Arm's Length is. Many don't know that you put up Rampart or your 30% as soon as you get to the end of the pull because that's when the most damage is incoming. There's simply pressing buttons, which is better than not mitigating at all, and then there's having an actual mitigation plan that makes sense for the mobs you're fighting and the skill level of the healer/DPS. That's last bit is not a layer of ability that is just inborn at level 30.

EDIT: And I'm humoring you because I like your question and the other guy was so causelessly rude to you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

I call BS, I just recently had two people get in a whole fight over mechanics in a learning party for p2s. It led to no one understanding what we were doing, and them both leaving the group. More than likely you have never done anything through the PF. If you are just running dungeons most people don't even talk cause no communication is really needed. If some one is complaining in a dungeon they are just petty dungeons are such simple quick easy content, if you are complaining about it I have no cares. Take them to the final boss of the dungeon then vote kick them so they learn a lesson, and there time is wasted.

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I've been running and organizing learning parties since heavensward. Heck I occasionally join random learning parties for extreme fights just to help out and explain stuff. In terms of savage content. There my party finder experience is somewhat limited since I've always saw it as something I wanted to do with my friends and not with random players. But the times I joined blind runs or learning parties people were talking civilized about markers/grouping/positioning etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

Reporting is childish

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No, reporting is normal if the offense warrants it. Obviously. That's common sense. Beyond that, normal and sociable folk generally want the world to be a better place.

So, what, you witness a person spouting third reich as well as pedophilic ideals in Limsa, and just walk on by, because "reporting is childish"? Nah, that's downright stupid.

Apathy and ignorance are childish, when you really think about it.