Why does Sage punish you for using your healing spells?

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Originally Posted by MitsukiLily

So much this, if they shuffled around the potency of Toxicon and Dosis it would feel SO much more rewarding.

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The intended purpose of Toxicon in single-target seems to be to let you continue DPS while you're forced to move.

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Originally Posted by kejakalope

The intended purpose of Toxicon in single-target seems to be to let you continue DPS while you're forced to move.

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This was my impression as well. The problem with this idea though is that Sage already has so many mobility options that it doesn’t really need the extra movement in the first place. Between Dosis slide-casts, Phlegma charges, Eukrasian Dosis and even putting up Eukrasian Diagnosis / Prognosis, you already have a lot of options, so a lot of the time it ends up not being worth applying the shield even if you do need to move, because the potency is only equal to Dosis, and it’s rare you’ll be moving so frequently that you literally cannot devote 1.5s to Dosis lol. I think increasing the potency of Toxicon is the best way to address that; lowering the dps penalty for using it would do a lot to make the Addersting mechanic feel less restrictive. That way there’s meaningful decision making in using Toxicon over Dosis other than ‘I want to lower my own dps’ lol

Toxicon is handy when you need to travel longer distances in a shorter amount of time. Instances where slidecasting might result in you getting clipped as a mechanic catches up to you. Phlegma isn’t meant to be used as a movement tool—its uses at an optimized level are calculated to fall within raid buffs. Not be saved for heavy movement. And this ain’t counting instances where you won’t be in range to use it anyways.

I’ve found plenty of uses for Toxicon, especially if I’m down Swiftcast because I used it on Egeiro versus for movement. The main issue is their generation being a DPS loss more often than not.

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Originally Posted by Connor

But the potency of Toxicon means that anytime I try to prepare Toxicon, I end up leaking damage because I had to use GCDs on Eukrasian Diagnosis (diagnoses? lol).

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Did they change how Eukrasia works while I was away? Enhancing your spells is not a dps loss it equates to a regular GCD.
Eukrasia is a 1 second GCD recast with the spells it effects being 1.5 second recasts making it a regular 2.5 recast like any other spell.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

The main issue is their generation being a DPS loss more often than not.

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Correct me if I'm wrong but their generation is only a dps loss if you were to run out of mana because of generating them otherwise they're dps neutral.
2 targets being a dps gain.

But just generating them is the same as simply using a regular GCD except it costs you more mana which isn't a loss until you run out which shouldn't happen unless a lot of people are dying.

Edit: I think I know why it's a dps loss now gunna recheck the posts later.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

Did they change how Eukrasia works while I was away? Enhancing your spells is not a dps loss it equates to a regular GCD.
Eukrasia is a 1 second GCD recast with the spells it effects being 1.5 second recasts making it a regular 2.5 recast like any other spell.



Correct me if I'm wrong but their generation is only a dps loss if you were to run out of mana because of generating them otherwise they're dps neutral.
2 targets being a dps gain.

But just generating them is the same as simply using a regular GCD except it costs you more mana which isn't a loss until you run out which shouldn't happen unless a lot of people are dying.

Edit: I think I know why it's a dps loss now gunna recheck the posts later.

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it's a dps loss because you spend an entire gcd on a barrier that instead of casting dosis 3

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Originally Posted by Connor

This was my impression as well. The problem with this idea though is that Sage already has so many mobility options that it doesn’t really need the extra movement in the first place. Between Dosis slide-casts, Phlegma charges, Eukrasian Dosis and even putting up Eukrasian Diagnosis / Prognosis, you already have a lot of options, so a lot of the time it ends up not being worth applying the shield even if you do need to move, because the potency is only equal to Dosis, and it’s rare you’ll be moving so frequently that you literally cannot devote 1.5s to Dosis lol. I think increasing the potency of Toxicon is the best way to address that; lowering the dps penalty for using it would do a lot to make the Addersting mechanic feel less restrictive. That way there’s meaningful decision making in using Toxicon over Dosis other than ‘I want to lower my own dps’ lol

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There's almost always downtime in fights to apply E.diag without losing a gcd. You can often simply start fights with 2 if not 3 stacks outright. It was designed for you to manage stacks for mobility (probably tuned for savage since there's hardly any mobility required in the current fights). I think it works great as is and doesn't need a buff at all.
Phlegma and E.dosis are the only other two tools, and for the most part, you'll only have one phlegma available most of the time, and melee range might not be available to you. So toxikon really becomes key and fills that void. (And that's without even considering add phases)

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

So, being serious here... as a WHM main who is deeply enjoying SGE, and who has been talking to some friends who've struggled with the new job, there's something I know they stumbled with that I feel like it's worth noting. I don't know whether it's where you're having issues, Sturm, but it might be more generally useful to other folks even if not.

Nearly all of sage's AoE mitigation/buff options are entirely viable for single-target scenarios, such as dealing with the tank's damage during a big pull.

Already used Haima, so it's on cooldown? Panhaima makes a great backup! Yeah, Panhaima's only 6 stacks of 200 potency mitigation (the initial shield, plus the five 'backup' charges it puts on as a stacked buff to reapply the shield when it's depleted) instead of 300 potency, but that's still 1200 potency of mitigation on the tank for up to 15s, which honestly is a respectable single-target shield.

(As a bonus, it's also mitigation on all the DPS, in case they stand in the bad.)

Kerachole's just flat out 15s of 10% damage mitigation -- it's the same mitigation as Taurochole, as an AoE. (Minus Taurochole's up-front healing, replaced with a regen.)

Physis II is 650 potency of AoE regen healing over 15 seconds, but it also gives a 10s buff that increases all incoming healing by 10%; tossing that down for a little extra 'oomph' when a tank's seeming a bit squishy can really help buff your other healing.

Holos is only 300 potency of AoE heal, which seems pretty tiny... but it's also 20 seconds of 10% damage mitigation, which isn't nothing during a trash pull. You can throw that one down even if only the tank will benefit from the mitigation.

The fact that I have this veritable buffet of mitigation options -- even if some are AoEs rather than single target -- makes me feel like I have more than enough kit on sage to deal with basically anything. Possibly beyond what's reasonable.

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This is how every healer works, so it's quite weird that this needs to be said.

Reading this thread and seeing how many sages are spamming their gcd heals on sage in dungeons is….i’m so happy i main a healer even with how boring it is, because it means i don’t need to be paired with people spamming gcd heals lmao

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

Correct me if I'm wrong but their generation is only a dps loss if you were to run out of mana because of generating them otherwise they're dps neutral.
2 targets being a dps gain.

But just generating them is the same as simply using a regular GCD except it costs you more mana which isn't a loss until you run out which shouldn't happen unless a lot of people are dying.

Edit: I think I know why it's a dps loss now gunna recheck the posts later.

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Toxicon is a DPS loss because you sacrifice a GCD to cast Eukrasian Diagnosis over Dosis III, and a Toxicon isn’t potent enough to make up the lost Dosis III cast. It is only DPS neutral if there is downtime within a fight for you to cast E.Diagnosis while a boss is untargetable.

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Originally Posted by rewd

This is how every healer works, so it's quite weird that this needs to be said.

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I don't think it's quite as true of White Mage as you might think.

Of White Mage's AoE healing/mitigation options, really only Temperance and Aslyum are still viable/worthwhile for dealing with tank-only damage during big pulls. Plenary Indulgence's Confession buff requires an AoE heal to pop, so it isn't terribly useful in trash pulls. The new lilybell only procs when the white mage takes damage, so for healing up just the tank it's only useful if you let it run down the full 12 seconds and then toss out the 'use leftover stacks as heal' expiration. If you've got a lily for Rapture, you've got a lily for Solace, so why are you using it on Rapture in a single-target-heal situation? Medica II isn't worthwhile in a single-target heal situation; you've got Regen for that. Cure III... just no.

(Assize might help, sure, but it's a damage ability with a healing side-effect; chances are it's already been mashed on cooldown.)

Someone whose primary healer experience is white mage is probably not going to instinctively go straight to "AoE mitigations are viable in single-target healing situations" as a conclusion when playing sage, and I suspect that's where the problem crops up for many.

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Originally Posted by Komarimono

I've found Sage easier to heal and DPS then my SCH. Ya get to toss out very quick shields, faster then any other healer ever could, while doing 3 forms of AoE damage for wall to wall pulling, and can keep the tank topped off with mostly just Kardia when it comes to bosses, tossing out a Dru or Ixo as needed to keep MP up while keeping Kera on cooldown. But gotta remember, there was a stat squish, and some lower level dungeons in roullette the tanks want to chain pull but not use CD's, then ya can cheat and just spam Eukrasia into Dia and easy peasy, not many healer can spam heal like that with a buffer, while moving...

Let us not forget, Soteria(Makes Kardia heal more)+Physis or Krasis? Ya.. Tanks not gonna take much damage as your doing AoE damage, not that I've seen at least.

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Sage is a wonderful healer. All of its mitigation/regen oGCDs are powerful and you can easily use them together when needed. And none of it has to take away from dosis spam.

Weird, I thought since Endwalker that all healers were being punished for healing, since most don't heal at all.

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Originally Posted by AlyaNimfa

Weird, I thought since Endwalker that all healers were being punished for healing, since most don't heal at all.

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Any data sources to back that up? Or are you just making stuff up?

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Originally Posted by Veliaire

Any data sources to back that up? Or are you just making stuff up?

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Meme'ing way too hard.

I like Sage so far, pretty quick and mobile, dealing damage is something you should do as a healer too. Especially White mage got some powerful damaging skills, like Holy stuns and regens on big pulls. I had a whm in a dungeon that only used Cure 1 and Medica 2 in lvl 81 - 89 dungeons, was annoying since i had to run from mobs to stay alive. He didn't even use a single regen or Holy.

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Originally Posted by kizumiayamame

I shouldn't be forced to spam damage moves when my tank is dying.

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Then don't. Kardia's healing is crap. It's not going to save your tank. It's an extremely low heal that shouldn't be relied upon after L30. You're a healer.. Use your heals.

Sage's Kardia triggers a single heal on a single target for a low potency upon successful spell cast of a damaging attack. It does not scale with the amount of damage you deal, which means that it's just a rolling HoT while you're dealing damage.

Otherwise it's not in use. If your party needs a heal, stop dpsing for a second and heal your party like you're supposed to. Sage is NOT a dps healer. You're a healer that has a temporary HoT on a single target while dealing damage.

You should essentially play your Sage like you do your White Mage; except your HoT spell that you'd spread around is a shield instead. Think of it like that and ignore Kardia all together. Put it on your tank and forget it's even there. Don't rely on it, don't try to maximize it's effects.. It's not going to save your tank.

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Originally Posted by kizumiayamame

Where are those moments because I feel like my tanks are always dying. Is that my fault or am I not giving them enough mitigation when I am playing Sage?

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Apply shields to your tank.. All the time. Use your MP, you have a lot of it and you get a lot of it back simply from casting your OCGD's. Every single one of your OGCD's gives you 700 MP. You also have lucid dreaming.

When your Eukrasian Diagnosis expires, simply put another one on. Don't be afraid to spend your MP, that's why you have it. Apply the shield. When it breaks, apply it again.

On top of that, don't sleep on Physis (II), Holos and Pepsis. They're really good spells, and I rarely see other Sage's using them.

If you need burst, cast Diagnosis then Eukrasian Diagnosis, Pepsis, Taurochole/Druochole and then another Eukrasian Diagnosis. Do that quickly and you'll top your tank up no problem. At that point you just have to keep your shield up. Toss Haima out if you need to, and use Kerachole when necessary.

Sage healing isn't difficult. Don't rely on Kardia for anything and you'll be fine.

Edit: You might feel that your role is to dps first and heal second. It's not. You're a healer. Stop dealing damage and heal your party. A dead party member isn't going to help kill the boss. A healthy party member is going to deal more damage than you anyway. Heal your team.

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Originally Posted by Windwalker

I like Sage so far, pretty quick and mobile

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The mobility is really nice, at least it feels fluid like that. The dash is really nice too

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Originally Posted by Saimeren

Apply shields to your tank.. All the time. Use your MP, you have a lot of it and you get a lot of it back simply from casting your OCGD's. Every single one of your OGCD's gives you 700 MP. You also have lucid dreaming.

When your Eukrasian Diagnosis expires, simply put another one on. Don't be afraid to spend your MP, that's why you have it. Apply the shield. When it breaks, apply it again.

On top of that, don't sleep on Physis (II), Holos and Pepsis. They're really good spells, and I rarely see other Sage's using them.

If you need burst, cast Diagnosis then Eukrasian Diagnosis, Pepsis, Taurochole/Druochole and then another Eukrasian Diagnosis. Do that quickly and you'll top your tank up no problem. At that point you just have to keep your shield up. Toss Haima out if you need to, and use Kerachole when necessary.

Sage healing isn't difficult. Don't rely on Kardia for anything and you'll be fine.

Edit: You might feel that your role is to dps first and heal second. It's not. You're a healer. Stop dealing damage and heal your party. A dead party member isn't going to help kill the boss. A healthy party member is going to deal more damage than you anyway. Heal your team.

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Oh my god, please stop giving terrible advice. Please.

For anyone reading this, do not apply and reapply diagnosis shields. That is not the way you play sage. You should be primarily using your oGCDs to mitigate and regen/cure. You can use your shield when there are no targetable enemies, but otherwise, all you need to do is weave your oGCDs while spamming your damage attacks.. that's it.. You don't need diagnosis.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

For anyone reading this, do not apply and reapply diagnosis shields. That is not the way you play sage. You should be primarily using your oGCDs to mitigate and regen/cure. You can use your shield when there are no targetable enemies, but otherwise, all you need to do is weave your oGCDs,

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(emphasis mine)

While it's certainly not a spam-spell because it's pretty inefficient, I believe it's a little more situational than just a pre-pull use as you mention.

With luck, my Euk_Diag done at the right time can shield for about 1/4 of a HP bar, plus on that crit add another 125% of damage mitigation. If haima/panhaima is down or being saved and one of the squishies is about to be eaten with a focused head marker I find it's quite invaluable. Especially if that head marker is on me and will carry a stun with it.

And when it goes to hell-in-a-handbasket because your pug tank isn't mitigating and your reaper is taking all the cleaves... 3-button pepsis helps. Also, as it's pretty strong it's use with pepsis is good on that surprise super-bolide.

There are likely more situations I can find for it. It's a tool, and a fairly good one in the correct spots.

But yeah, apply and reapply and keep them up all the time isn't it's use. It's far more situational, but it does carry valid uses beyond pre-pull.

If you feel like you're being punished and don't like to deal damage to heal then mayhap WHM, AST and/or SCH might be more to your licking.

Sage is a really great healer. But, the entire "do damage to heal" mechanic is sorely not as advertised. The only skill which really shines in this regard is Pneuma.

In reality, Kardion behaves more like Embrace from the Scholar Faerie Pet. Kardion is essentially a low HoT entirely dependent upon your actions per second while DPSing as a sage.

However, I adore the Sage.

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Originally Posted by Saimeren

Then don't. Kardia's healing is crap. It's not going to save your tank. It's an extremely low heal that shouldn't be relied upon after L30. You're a healer.. Use your heals.

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Kardia is your regen and has plenty of use beyond level 30. You can’t always rely upon it or trash fights, but during boss fights in all dungeons, I barely have to use any other forms of healing on a tank. My oGCDs are primarily for mana or to heal the DPS.

Protip for 8-man content: Kardia buffs and HoTs stack. So if you end up with double SGE, then both of you can apply Kardia to the MT for double the HoT ticks. There are so many SGEs that put it on the OT that acts as a blue DPS the entire fight and never takes a lick of damage, and that is such a waste. There aren’t enough fights were both tanks are taking autos at the same time, so 9 times out of 10, you can both apply Kardia to the same target.

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Sage's Kardia triggers a single heal on a single target for a low potency upon successful spell cast of a damaging attack. It does not scale with the amount of damage you deal, which means that it's just a rolling HoT while you're dealing damage.

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And you are underestimating the power of HoTs. While Kardia shouldn’t be relied upon to solely heal a tank, you aren’t considering the worth of a regen tick.

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Otherwise it's not in use. If your party needs a heal, stop dpsing for a second and heal your party like you're supposed to. Sage is NOT a dps healer. You're a healer that has a temporary HoT on a single target while dealing damage.

You should essentially play your Sage like you do your White Mage; except your HoT spell that you'd spread around is a shield instead. Think of it like that and ignore Kardia all together. Put it on your tank and forget it's even there. Don't rely on it, don't try to maximize it's effects.. It's not going to save your tank.

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Kardia should almost always be in use because there are very few fights where you have to actively stop damage to heal. Even with people eating stuff they shouldn’t be, you should be using oGCDs over GCD healing spells, which means your GCDs are being spent on damage.

And no, you do not play SGE as you do a WHM. WHM has the unfortunate luck of being the “GCD healer” in this game, as most of its heals are not oGCD. Conversely, SGE’s primary heals are supposed to be your oGCD abilities that use up Addersgall stacks. Telling a person to “play SGE like you do WHM” is just wrong because SGE is not a WHM. Barrier versus regen healer aside.

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Originally Posted by Saimeren

Apply shields to your tank.. All the time. Use your MP, you have a lot of it and you get a lot of it back simply from casting your OCGD's. Every single one of your OGCD's gives you 700 MP. You also have lucid dreaming.

When your Eukrasian Diagnosis expires, simply put another one on. Don't be afraid to spend your MP, that's why you have it. Apply the shield. When it breaks, apply it again.

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Do not do this. Spamming your single-target shield is a last resort mechanic for SGE. You burn through Addersgall stacks first and foremost while weaving in offensives for Kardia ticks. Addersgall stacks take 20 seconds to gain, and you have Rhizomata at the higher levels to grant you one every 90 seconds. You use them first. Spamming your GCD shield is suboptimal and a resource waste.

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On top of that, don't sleep on Physis (II), Holos and Pepsis. They're really good spells, and I rarely see other Sage's using them.

If you need burst, cast Diagnosis then Eukrasian Diagnosis, Pepsis, Taurochole/Druochole and then another Eukrasian Diagnosis. Do that quickly and you'll top your tank up no problem. At that point you just have to keep your shield up. Toss Haima out if you need to, and use Kerachole when necessary.

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The preferred order of healing I do for dungeon pulls is:

Pre-pull Eukrasian Diagnosis on the tank > I will refresh this while running for Toxikon stacks while using Dyskrasia on the mobs > Kerachole for mitigation / HoT + mitigation at levels 78 and above > Taurochole + Haima after Kerachole wears off and the tank is around 50% HP > Druochole as needed (usually I only have to use these twice if I have a tank that knows what defensives are, but more if I get one that thinks cooldowns are to be saved for the bosses). Most trash packs should die before I have to resort to another Kerachole or using excessive Druochole stacks if the DPS are pressing their AOE buttons. For a second pull, I combined Taurochole with Panhaima at 80+, since it serves almost the same purpose. There is no “if you need to” with Haima or Panhaima. Both of them are incredibly good, and you should have either one up for every dungeon pull. There are only a few pulls off the top of my head where I’ve had to resort to using more E. Diagnosis than I want (last pull before the last boss in Tower of Zot comes to mind), but the vast majority I can easily get away with using the combinations above, and barely have to use E. Diagnosis outside of pre-pull/running with the tank.

Unless I have a tank made of paper, I rarely have to do much beyond this. Pre-HoT Kerachole, I substitute Physis in its place as my HoT while using Kerachole for the auto mitigation. If the pull is taking longer to die, then I use Holos for a small heal + mitigation on the tank. Krasis if I want to boost my oGCDs. In 90 content, there should be at least one pull between bosses for you to Zoe + Pneuma, which is your strongest heal. I tend to time them around the spicer pulls in the 90 MSQ dungeon. The two Expert dungeons I just throw them wherever because they hit like wet noodles. Like most Expert dungeons tend to do.

I’ll take sage over every other healer right now, due to the fact it’s actually interesting to play. And no you don’t spam your single target or aoe shield because you’ll eat your mp

Just to add to that, I had a tank massive pull Dohn Mheg and sage felt about the same as whm does in terms of handling damage and I’m about 400 ilevel on sage right now and I wasn’t try harding on dps either - mainly because incoming damage is quite high in that dungeon so it required more healing.

It's just another way to play a healer class.

Options, you got 3 others.

I'm a WHM main since the start of ARR and after unlocking Sage, I felt like @_@... Its confusing and strange, people have tried to help me understand it but I am probably going to have to start Sage at level 16 and work up from there, trying to figure out its kit. Really wish there was a good tutorial for the job as its so different from anything I have every played in the game.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Sage is meant to be different. It’s not meant to be a WHM clone. Personally, I like being rewarded for dealing damage as a healer—there’s little point in not trying to deal damage when you aren’t trying to heal. And Sage’s personal damage is monstrous.

Sage’s primary heals come from it’s Addersgall stacks, not from Diagnosis/Prognosis or their Eukrasian versions. All of these heals can be weaved between Dosis casts. For a tank in dungeon pulls, Taurochole + Haima is god-tier—and then your passive regen from Kardia will keep them steady in between weaving Druochole on them. On pulls where you don’t have Haima, you can use Panhaima if you’re 80+. It serves the same purpose. Kerachole is 10% damage mitigation, and after level 78 it gains a regen and is absolutely broken—pop it at the start of a pull for regen+mitigation. You can use Physis II to give the tank a regen every 60 seconds on top of your Kardia ticks. At 86, you gain Krasis, which is Nature’s Minne on a 60s CD. Granted, I think you get it a bit too late, but it’s still useful on a tank; and it affects the healing potency of your oGCDs.

If you are reduced to spamming GCDs (Eukrasian Diagnosis is better than Diagnosis, which is less potent than Cure I and unusable in any higher level dungeon) on the tank, then you have an issue that isn’t even related to Sage. Either your tank isn’t popping defensives, or your DPS are failing to kill trash packs fast enough (likely from not AOEing). Sage may have a harder time than other healers in dungeons due to lack of burst healing, but it isn’t bad.


If you don’t like the damage mechanic, then you are free to play the other three healers. But don’t ask to have it removed or altered for those of us who actually like it.

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It... It's going to take me time to learn all this as I'm too used to White Mage style.

I can see that they really did succeed in making a Healer job that would appeal to DPS Job mainers.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

I'm a WHM main since the start of ARR and after unlocking Sage, I felt like @_@... Its confusing and strange, people have tried to help me understand it but I am probably going to have to start Sage at level 16 and work up from there, trying to figure out its kit. Really wish there was a good tutorial for the job as its so different from anything I have every played in the game.

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Sage gameplay is basically this: You stick kardia on the tank, apply your DoT and then start spamming dosis. In between each dosis cast, you use one of your off-GCD mitigation/regen/shield skills. Mitigation + Regen/shield makes it possible for you to cover much of the healing you need with kardia and you have off-GCD options for spot healing where needed as well while continuing to spam dosis.

Dosis spam is the foundation of it all. Keep your dosis (or your AoE attack) rolling and hit your oGCDs in-between, that's it really. Learning how to play the class comes down to figuring out which oGCDs you want to use when.

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Originally Posted by kizumiayamame

Why does sage punish you for using healing spells? The way Kardion works is that you ONLY heal when you cast a damage spell. No other healer works like that or has their healing tied to their damage. It's such an unnecessary mechanic that incentivizes healers to make Suboptimal plays. As a former White Mage player (let's not get into the thin air nerfs, shall we) it's incredibly frustrating that sqenix ignores what gameplay feels like for healers. Just make kardion work whenever you cast ANY gcd. I shouldn't be forced to spam damage moves when my tank is dying.

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Go back to Whm if you dont like how they created this new class with a new playstyle. Sage is an alternative to sch, not whm.

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Originally Posted by kizumiayamame

Why does sage punish you for using healing spells? The way Kardion works is that you ONLY heal when you cast a damage spell. No other healer works like that or has their healing tied to their damage. It's such an unnecessary mechanic that incentivizes healers to make Suboptimal plays. As a former White Mage player (let's not get into the thin air nerfs, shall we) it's incredibly frustrating that sqenix ignores what gameplay feels like for healers. Just make kardion work whenever you cast ANY gcd. I shouldn't be forced to spam damage moves when my tank is dying.

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Maybe Square Enix finally decided to cater to the "meta" for healers, which is to do no healing unless on oGCD and to spam damage spells instead. Damage meters judge you heavily on your DPS, which means that any bit of GCD healing is a hit against your record and is heavily discouraged. With Sage, you can heal while using your damage spells, and (Pan)haima, your best shield, is oGCD. Along with the other oGCD heals, regen, and defense buffs that you have. It feels like Square Enix, more than any other healer, understands what healers really do (spam damage) and cater to that as much as possible.

Also, as a long-time player, I apologize on behalf of those in this thread calling you a "troll". Constructive discourse should always be welcomed. And seeing that you're on-point, they're the ones missing out.

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Originally Posted by kizumiayamame

Where are those moments because I feel like my tanks are always dying. Is that my fault or am I not giving them enough mitigation when I am playing Sage? @Penthea

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A tank dropping during trash pulls in dungeons is almost never only on the healer. Almost all content in the game can be healed with OGCDs provided a tank is using their full kit to mitigate damage. If a healer has used their OGCDs properly and still finds themselves spamming single target heals to keep their tank alive then its likely their tank isn't employing a mitigation strategy that compliments this play-style.

I tried Sage at level 58 in the Vault with my friends and I felt like I was always struggling to keep the tank alive in any form. The shields never lasted long enough for me to catch up on heals and my instants were always down. Trying to use the DPS to heal thing was nearly impossible as I was spamming my heal to try and keep them alive. Our tank (PLD - no way I'll try sage with a DRK) was using the normal CDs and mitigations so no issues on their part. On my WHM, its medica 2, regen and Holy / Stone till I'm asleep, but Sage feels incredibly weak compared to WHM, AST or SCH.

I'll admit, I'm a WHM career main, and healing is my thing but on Sage I just can't keep people alive. The only time I have fun on Sage is when I am a co-healer to a strong healer such as WHM.

Trying to solo healer on Sage is maddening. I'll get it to 90 via non-solo healer methods, it's just not fun for me which is really sad, I was looking forward to another healer job but this is pure stress.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

I tried Sage at level 58 in the Vault with my friends and I felt like I was always struggling to keep the tank alive in any form. The shields never lasted long enough for me to catch up on heals and my instants were always down. Trying to use the DPS to heal thing was nearly impossible as I was spamming my heal to try and keep them alive. Our tank was using the normal CDs and mitigations so no issues on their part. On my WHM, its medica 2, regen and stone till I'm asleep, but Sage feels incredibly weak compared to WHM, AST or SCH.

I'll admit, I'm a WHM career main, and healing is my thing but on Sage I just can't keep people alive. The only time I have fun on Sage is when I am a co-healer to a strong healer such as WHM.

Trying to solo healer on Sage is maddening. I'll get it to 90 via non-solo healer methods, it's just not fun for me which is really sad, I was looking forward to another healer job but this is pure stress.

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That's just low level Sage really, as others have mentioned, it is VERY oGCD heavy, a lot more than the other healers imo, the higher level you get, the easier it becomes, cause not only do you have more to use, but also you grow accustomed to rotating them. Plus as you've said, you're a WHM main, I personally always find it hard to go back and forth between a pure and shield healer, it's why I personally just play shield heals.

I wouldn't say it's weak persay(atleast not yet, I wanna take it into EX before I comment on that), but it's definitely way different.

Solo healing a DRK though, that I cant deny, is pretty hard.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

I tried Sage at level 58 in the Vault with my friends and I felt like I was always struggling to keep the tank alive in any form. The shields never lasted long enough for me to catch up on heals and my instants were always down. Trying to use the DPS to heal thing was nearly impossible as I was spamming my heal to try and keep them alive. Our tank (PLD - no way I'll try sage with a DRK) was using the normal CDs and mitigations so no issues on their part. On my WHM, its medica 2, regen and Holy / Stone till I'm asleep, but Sage feels incredibly weak compared to WHM, AST or SCH.

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That sounds more like a problem on your side (eg. not really understanding how this job works) than a problem with Sage. I also healed it right after the expansion started and had zero problems. I didn't even play for more than 3 months and was a WHM main before.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

The only time I have fun on Sage is when I am a co-healer to a strong healer such as WHM.

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Once you get into endgame it's the other way around entirely. Sage hard-carries WHM when it comes to healing. In fact you just get in their way if you try to heal, they have lots of strong HoT's and need to use their oGCD's to recover mana, so you just push them into overheal while hurting your own dps.

Most likely it's just not your preferred playstyle and you're comfortable on your main. Sage at 90 is extremely good at healing and far superior to WHM.

If the tank is dying on Sage then the tank isn't pressing buttons. You can layer and cycle so many cooldowns on Sage and never press a GCD heal.

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Originally Posted by Raim

If the tank is dying on Sage then the tank isn't pressing buttons. You can layer and cycle so many cooldowns on Sage and never press a GCD heal.

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They were using their buttons and on a similar run with my WHM, I did mostly DPS. On my Sage run, they died twice, and I just couldn't keep them alive with the existing healing kit with shields.

Yea, I've already accepted that Sage is not for me, unless something radically changes with the job or myself. I wont totally rule it out in the future but as of right now, playing it makes me feel bad :(

I don’t get why some people disliking a style of a role is a bad thing. If the job system is working as intended, you *should* dislike some jobs within your favorite role just as much as you like some other jobs within your role.

I’d be more worried if all the healers could be played exactly the same way and were a good fit for one specific type of healer. Sage embracing the green deeps lifestyle and running with it is excellent, and would probably do well with changes that lean into that concept more heavily.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

I don’t get why some people disliking a style of a role is a bad thing. If the job system is working as intended, you *should* dislike some jobs within your favorite role just as much as you like some other jobs within your role.

I’d be more worried if all the healers could be played exactly the same way and were a good fit for one specific type of healer. Sage embracing the green deeps lifestyle and running with it is excellent, and would probably do well with changes that lean into that concept more heavily.

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If anything, healers and tanks should be more different from each other while still covering the basics. The idea that sge is a "dps healer" gives me a small amount of hope that I might find it fun and maybe even join the healer ranks as an off role to dps. WHM was so boring and ast just feels like WHM+(which is neat dont get me wrong but almost feels like WHM should "graduate" to AST after a bit).