Endwalker was a great mess(SPOILERS)

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Originally Posted by Driavna

EW mentioned that Ascians gave a "faulty" summoning spell to other races that incorporated tempering (to keep the process going), so they knew how to summon without tempering. Before EW I was of your opinion, know I just think devs wanted to go to X before EW and then switched to Y.

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Yeah that became obvious at the end of Stormblood when we got redirected from the war with the Empire to go on a massive sidequest. Then they mentioned recently that they didn't have a plan and it all made sense. They don't have a narrative destination, they are just writing whatever as they go. Endwalker and its weird obsession with closing so many plot threads made that abundantly clear. It comes across as trying to finish off what was started before so they can do their own thing now. We'll see how that ends up but right now I am not exactly optimistic.

That being said, right now XIV is the golden child of MMO's so there won't be many people calling them on it. And even here, at what I consider to be the worst in so far as narrative and writing goes, its better than any other MMO story on the market.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

I'm convinced that people don't actually read stories anymore, they just react to the moments in front of them entirely unmoored from their context.

The narrative function of utopias in stories is that they aren't possible. They're unsustainable. You can't live in paradise, because that's just not how life works. FFXIV constantly, constantly, constantly hammers and hammers this point at the player. The Ea had a "perfect" society. Didn't help. The people who summoned Ra La had a "perfect" society. It didn't work. The narrative purpose of Amaurot's flailing at armageddon was that they were trying to return to perfection at any cost, which again is impossible. Now, quibble with how muddled that portrayal gets in the story, sure. But pretending like Amaurot was a perfect society that was just murdering one subversive away from staying perfect, and you're the person for whom the point of utopian narratives goes whistling straight over your head. There's always juuuuuust one more adjustment to be made. Just one naysayer to murder. Just one policy to update. These stories have been with human society for thousands of years because they're telling you that thinking Utopia is just around the corner is nonsense. Stories are just as much theme as they are sequence of events, and modern fiction criticism fixates unhealthily on the What over the Why. It's not that the sequence of events is unimportant, it's that the story is trying to tell you something.

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Not everyone is going to care what the writer’s opinion is though, they care about the overall lore of the game. Fact is they kind of stomped that and then some. It isn’t so much that the Ancients were this perfect society as it is they didn’t even get a fighting chance, Venat just slaughtered them.After going through Pandaemonium it’s clear things weren’t perfect and they seem to acknowledge that. However their society was one that was closer to it than say the sundered world. I mean even the dragons had a very good society but they were still wiped out because why? A lot of it just contradicts itself and doesn’t make sense.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

I'm convinced that people don't actually read stories anymore, they just react to the moments in front of them entirely unmoored from their context.

The narrative function of utopias in stories is that they aren't possible. They're unsustainable. You can't live in paradise, because that's just not how life works. FFXIV constantly, constantly, constantly hammers and hammers this point at the player. The Ea had a "perfect" society. Didn't help. The people who summoned Ra La had a "perfect" society. It didn't work. The narrative purpose of Amaurot's flailing at armageddon was that they were trying to return to perfection at any cost, which again is impossible. Now, quibble with how muddled that portrayal gets in the story, sure. But pretending like Amaurot was a perfect society that was just murdering one subversive away from staying perfect, and you're the person for whom the point of utopian narratives goes whistling straight over your head. There's always juuuuuust one more adjustment to be made. Just one naysayer to murder. Just one policy to update. These stories have been with human society for thousands of years because they're telling you that thinking Utopia is just around the corner is nonsense. Stories are just as much theme as they are sequence of events, and modern fiction criticism fixates unhealthily on the What over the Why. It's not that the sequence of events is unimportant, it's that the story is trying to tell you something.

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The 'narrative' can say what it likes, though the writers themselves are on record as stating that there's rarely a defined 'good' or 'evil' within the setting and merely matters of perspective.

Venat isn't some brave hero who saw what others did not. She's an individual who denied her people the opportunity to properly prepare themselves against the threat of the Final Days. The Plenty is a separate world to that of the Ancients and there's no established guarantee that the Ancients would have gone in the exact same direction. The Dragons, too, had a paradise but lost it to war through no fault of their own. Nor does it really align with what the Sundered are doing, given that the trend so far has been for the Scions to move from region to region and establish their own version of 'paradise' upon everybody else with the majority of grit within each nation eroded away or removed entirely in the search for a 'better tomorrow'.

The writing isn't particularly deep or consistent, either. If it's 'bad' for the Ancients to bring back their loved ones, then why is acceptable for the Scions to do the same? Using the power of the same entity who prevented the Ancients from doing it, mind you. If anything, that can be taken as Venat admitting that her methods were incorrect after all and that doing everything possible to preserve one's loved ones is the correct route to take.

Which it is - because there's no reason for anyone to just roll over and die and accept that their friends, family and neighbours 'need' to be wiped out to make way for someone else.

I don't think the story knew what it was doing in the finale and it certainly didn't commit to the 'themes' that it put front and centre. Having done many of the side quests, I noticed that many were about accepting death and moving on - which is all the stranger when that, conveniently, never applies to the Scions or City State leaders.

Each to their own, though, I suppose. Nobody is even obligated to agree with the 'themes' pushed by a story, at any rate. Different characters and factions resonate differently, after all.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I mean even the dragons had a very good society but they were still wiped out because why? A lot of it just contradicts itself and doesn’t make sense.

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Because an army of angry robots from space killed them? Then what few survivors remained were unable to reproduce because of the desolation/radiation/waste/pollution/whatever caused by said robots.

The Dragons weren't one of the races anyone points to for a society that collapses on itself. That's the robots who attacked 'em.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

The Dragons weren't one of the races anyone points to for a society that collapses on itself. That's the robots who attacked 'em.

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Which, I suspect, is what he's getting at. There's nothing suggesting that the Ancients would have gone the same way as the Plenty other than arguable headcanon. Ultimately Venat denied them the ability to even try, though we already know that Zodiark served as a ward against the Final Days and persisted as a ward even when Sundered. Imagine how much more powerful that ward would have been had the Sundering not occurred?

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Originally Posted by Powercow

Because an army of angry robots from space killed them? Then what few survivors remained were unable to reproduce because of the desolation/radiation/waste/pollution/whatever caused by said robots.

The Dragons weren't one of the races anyone points to for a society that collapses on itself. That's the robots who attacked 'em.

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So the writing and narrative is saying that no matter what you do you’re screwed? Whether you seek perfection or not your entire society can fail and perish. How is this any different from what Meteion did to the Ancients? An angry entity tried to end their world and cause mass extinction all for something that wasn’t even guaranteed.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

So the writing and narrative is saying that no matter what you do you’re screwed?

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Er, well if an army of angry robots from space attacks yeah you're probably screwed. I don't think that bit is that deep.

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Whether you seek perfection or not your entire society can fail and perish. How is this any different from what Meteion did to the Ancients? An angry entity tried to end their world and cause mass extinction all for something that wasn’t even guaranteed.

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The Omicrons attacked because they sought self-improvement through combat. Meteion did so because she felt she was sparing them the pain of existence. It's not a good reason, but she was a poorly-programmed robot herself so her motives being weak kinda fits.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Imagine how much more powerful that ward would have been had the Sundering not occurred?

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Zodiark kept demanding more sacrifices, presumably to keep the shield going. (Elidibus was his moral center, so in theory it'd have been for the noble but single-minded goal of "save the world".) If he'd been left to his own devices, eventually there'd be nobody left to protect. It wasn't a perfect creation; Emet himself says they kinda rushed him out the door because of the ongoing apocalypse. Had Venat told them about it earlier, they likely could have more time to think it through and come up with a better plan, but it didn't seem like they were super interested in hearing her perspective on how to do it.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

Er, well if an army of angry robots from space attacks yeah you're probably screwed. I don't think that bit is that deep.

The Omicrons attacked because they sought self-improvement through combat. Meteion did so because she felt she was sparing them the pain of existence. It's not a good reason, but she was a poorly-programmed robot herself so her motives being weak kinda fits.

Zodiark kept demanding more sacrifices, presumably to keep the shield going. (Elidibus was his moral center, so in theory it'd have been for the noble but single-minded goal of "save the world".) If he'd been left to his own devices, eventually there'd be nobody left to protect. It wasn't a perfect creation; Emet himself says they kinda rushed him out the door because of the ongoing apocalypse. Had Venat told them about it earlier, they likely could have more time to think it through and come up with a better plan, but it didn't seem like they were super interested in hearing her perspective on how to do it.

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Could you please point me to where it states he was demanding my sacrifices for this “ward”? Because from what i recall it’s only stated that they sacrificed 2 times. Once to save the world. Another to restore life to the planet. And the 3rd and final set of sacrifices was to be for bringing back the loved ones trapped inside Zodiark. Again i don’t get this thing about they weren’t super interested, when Emet himself says he puts the safety of the star over anything else even if he doesn’t believe someone’s story. He also knew he was mind wiped so that would give more ground for Venat to use.Also in regards to Zodiark being rushed, he had been studied as a concept in Akadaemia.

The thing with the dragons was explained by some of the secondary quest at Ultima Thule. Pretty much they gave up hope and stood there to die instead of following Midgardsormr like he/she asked.

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Originally Posted by crimsonwitch

i've concluded that people are just mad i'm critiquing their favorite games' story. i started in 2019, and square had a great thing rolling with shadowbringers but they just dropped the ball.

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There will always be FFXIV fanboys that will feel insulted if you criticize the game. I'm sorry to say but that's just what the community here is like. Endwalker's story was sloppy but there's a lot more to this game than that, such as the gameplay and endgame raids.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Again i don’t get this thing about they weren’t super interested, when Emet himself says he puts the safety of the star over anything else even if he doesn’t believe someone’s story.

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Diplomatic Ancient One: Thank you all for joining us at Anyder in these most perilous of times.
Diplomatic Ancient One: By the summoning of Zodiark have we been granted a reprieve. Yet immutable as the laws He has woven may seem, they will not serve to forestall our doom.
Distressed Ancient One: Nay. Should we continue down this path, our fate will be the same.
Distressed Ancient One: I said as much to the Convocation, of course, but the stubborn fools turned a deaf ear to my warnings.
Distressed Ancient One: I had hoped that the defector, at least, would side with us, but I regret to report our overtures have gone unanswered.
Distressed Ancient One: Whither tend your thoughts, Venat? Where you lead, we will follow.
Venat: I shall not speak ill of the Convocation─they too seek only to secure the future of our star.
Venat: Yet it is plain they will not countenance a permanent solution. That being the case, we must ask ourselves a simple question: are we prepared to pursue our chosen course, even should it mean suffering the eternal condemnation of our brethren?
Venat: If so, I see no further reason to demur.
Venat: Let us bring forth the Light that shall ever after keep the Darkness in check.

I also think literally sacrificing everyone else, people that Venat and Azem had met and befriended, whole societies... just to forestall their own problems another day? Seems rather... evil, I suppose. Especially given that this problem was of their own making. Hermes started it, and despite the warnings they apparently just kept with it. After all, why should THEY change when they're perfect? Just kill up everyone else, let Zodiark sort it out and pretend the elephant in the room doesn't exist.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

The 'narrative' can say what it likes, though the writers themselves are on record as stating that there's rarely a defined 'good' or 'evil' within the setting and merely matters of perspective.

Venat isn't some brave hero who saw what others did not. She's an individual who denied her people the opportunity to properly prepare themselves against the threat of the Final Days. The Plenty is a separate world to that of the Ancients and there's no established guarantee that the Ancients would have gone in the exact same direction. The Dragons, too, had a paradise but lost it to war through no fault of their own. Nor does it really align with what the Sundered are doing, given that the trend so far has been for the Scions to move from region to region and establish their own version of 'paradise' upon everybody else with the majority of grit within each nation eroded away or removed entirely in the search for a 'better tomorrow'.

The writing isn't particularly deep or consistent, either. If it's 'bad' for the Ancients to bring back their loved ones, then why is acceptable for the Scions to do the same? Using the power of the same entity who prevented the Ancients from doing it, mind you. If anything, that can be taken as Venat admitting that her methods were incorrect after all and that doing everything possible to preserve one's loved ones is the correct route to take.

Which it is - because there's no reason for anyone to just roll over and die and accept that their friends, family and neighbours 'need' to be wiped out to make way for someone else.

I don't think the story knew what it was doing in the finale and it certainly didn't commit to the 'themes' that it put front and centre. Having done many of the side quests, I noticed that many were about accepting death and moving on - which is all the stranger when that, conveniently, never applies to the Scions or City State leaders.

Each to their own, though, I suppose. Nobody is even obligated to agree with the 'themes' pushed by a story, at any rate. Different characters and factions resonate differently, after all.

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@Theodric i really like your take on things and therefore always giving my thought provoking alternate insights and other angles to consider when reflecting on this. You contributions to this and the lore forum is always great. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

Diplomatic Ancient One: Thank you all for joining us at Anyder in these most perilous of times.
Diplomatic Ancient One: By the summoning of Zodiark have we been granted a reprieve. Yet immutable as the laws He has woven may seem, they will not serve to forestall our doom.
Distressed Ancient One: Nay. Should we continue down this path, our fate will be the same.
Distressed Ancient One: I said as much to the Convocation, of course, but the stubborn fools turned a deaf ear to my warnings.
Distressed Ancient One: I had hoped that the defector, at least, would side with us, but I regret to report our overtures have gone unanswered.
Distressed Ancient One: Whither tend your thoughts, Venat? Where you lead, we will follow.
Venat: I shall not speak ill of the Convocation─they too seek only to secure the future of our star.
Venat: Yet it is plain they will not countenance a permanent solution. That being the case, we must ask ourselves a simple question: are we prepared to pursue our chosen course, even should it mean suffering the eternal condemnation of our brethren?
Venat: If so, I see no further reason to demur.
Venat: Let us bring forth the Light that shall ever after keep the Darkness in check.

I also think literally sacrificing everyone else, people that Venat and Azem had met and befriended, whole societies... just to forestall their own problems another day? Seems rather... evil, I suppose. Especially given that this problem was of their own making. Hermes started it, and despite the warnings they apparently just kept with it. After all, why should THEY change when they're perfect? Just kill up everyone else, let Zodiark sort it out and pretend the elephant in the room doesn't exist.

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Their solution was to sacrifice half of their remaining number to try to reclaim what they had lost, create a bunch of new people and races and what have you and then sacrifice ALL of them to bring back the people they'd originally sacrificed, all without actually fixing the problem. To make it even worse people sacrificed to Zodiark didn't even get to return to the Aetherial Sea, they had to remain trapped in Zodiark. As a society the Ascians might have meant well but man when the crud hit the fan they went downhill quick. The Ascians after the Final Days were villains, plain and simple.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

Diplomatic Ancient One: Thank you all for joining us at Anyder in these most perilous of times.
Diplomatic Ancient One: By the summoning of Zodiark have we been granted a reprieve. Yet immutable as the laws He has woven may seem, they will not serve to forestall our doom.
Distressed Ancient One: Nay. Should we continue down this path, our fate will be the same.
Distressed Ancient One: I said as much to the Convocation, of course, but the stubborn fools turned a deaf ear to my warnings.
Distressed Ancient One: I had hoped that the defector, at least, would side with us, but I regret to report our overtures have gone unanswered.
Distressed Ancient One: Whither tend your thoughts, Venat? Where you lead, we will follow.
Venat: I shall not speak ill of the Convocation─they too seek only to secure the future of our star.
Venat: Yet it is plain they will not countenance a permanent solution. That being the case, we must ask ourselves a simple question: are we prepared to pursue our chosen course, even should it mean suffering the eternal condemnation of our brethren?
Venat: If so, I see no further reason to demur.
Venat: Let us bring forth the Light that shall ever after keep the Darkness in check.

I also think literally sacrificing everyone else, people that Venat and Azem had met and befriended, whole societies... just to forestall their own problems another day? Seems rather... evil, I suppose. Especially given that this problem was of their own making. Hermes started it, and despite the warnings they apparently just kept with it. After all, why should THEY change when they're perfect? Just kill up everyone else, let Zodiark sort it out and pretend the elephant in the room doesn't exist.

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We’re never shown that conversation between that random ancient person and the convocation but irregardless Venat has more leeway, especially considering the Elpis situation is before Zodiark even exists. The problem wasn’t of their own making really either. I don’t think they really had a stance on perfection either as we see with Pandaemonium, problems still arose, again they were just better than most societies.They didn’t know they were only stalling by the way you seem to be cherry picking things. The ancients willingly sacrificed themselves to protect the star and its people, for both sacrifices. They didn’t know what had happened at the time you’re acting like they knew the entire time. If you want to talk about evil, look at Venat who could’ve given her people a fighting chance and instead lies and kept things from them and then decided to literally rip her people apart. Not only that but then later was fine with the people she created being killed and only the people on the source surviving. Just because Hermes started things btw doesn’t mean the entire society is to blame. That’s one person.

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Originally Posted by PaulH

@Theodric i really like your take on things and therefore always giving my thought provoking alternate insights and other angles to consider when reflecting on this. You contributions to this and the lore forum is always great. Thanks.

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Hah, I appreciate that! It's good to know I'm not rambling into the void. ;)

I always strive to figure out the 'how' and 'why' behind pretty much every situation. I hold fast to the idea that concepts such as morality are exceedingly complex and that they're going to resonate differently based on any given individual's personal experiences, their background, personal beliefs and all manner of different factors.

...and that's before applying the same lens to the characters/factions in question. :p

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Originally Posted by Powercow

Diplomatic Ancient One: Thank you all for joining us at Anyder in these most perilous of times.
Diplomatic Ancient One: By the summoning of Zodiark have we been granted a reprieve. Yet immutable as the laws He has woven may seem, they will not serve to forestall our doom.
Distressed Ancient One: Nay. Should we continue down this path, our fate will be the same.
Distressed Ancient One: I said as much to the Convocation, of course, but the stubborn fools turned a deaf ear to my warnings.
Distressed Ancient One: I had hoped that the defector, at least, would side with us, but I regret to report our overtures have gone unanswered.
Distressed Ancient One: Whither tend your thoughts, Venat? Where you lead, we will follow.
Venat: I shall not speak ill of the Convocation─they too seek only to secure the future of our star.
Venat: Yet it is plain they will not countenance a permanent solution. That being the case, we must ask ourselves a simple question: are we prepared to pursue our chosen course, even should it mean suffering the eternal condemnation of our brethren?
Venat: If so, I see no further reason to demur.
Venat: Let us bring forth the Light that shall ever after keep the Darkness in check.

I also think literally sacrificing everyone else, people that Venat and Azem had met and befriended, whole societies... just to forestall their own problems another day? Seems rather... evil, I suppose. Especially given that this problem was of their own making. Hermes started it, and despite the warnings they apparently just kept with it. After all, why should THEY change when they're perfect? Just kill up everyone else, let Zodiark sort it out and pretend the elephant in the room doesn't exist.

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That source simply states the Convocation rejected their "solution"; if said "solution" was to sunder their people because they had a preference for the newborn life (again: unspecified what this was but very possible it was creations like those in Elpis which had gained souls, thus not much different to animals or monsters for the most part) and could not get the majority of their people on-side, it is not surprising that the Convocation would reject their suggestion. I posted this a while for a clearer understanding of the events in SHB, because people seem prone to making up headcanon and then substituting it for what happened.

The last line, I can make little sense of; the Final Days had already decimated the world by that point, to the point of nearly killing the star.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

Diplomatic Ancient One: By the summoning of Zodiark have we been granted a reprieve. Yet immutable as the laws He has woven may seem, they will not serve to forestall our doom.
Distressed Ancient One: Nay. Should we continue down this path, our fate will be the same.
Distressed Ancient One: I said as much to the Convocation, of course, but the stubborn fools turned a deaf ear to my warnings.

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They tried talking to the convocation after Zodiark had been summoned. They had already been tempered.

I think they ended up retconning some of the Anyder stuff. The scene just after that one of them asks why Venat has to be the heart, that they need her as their leader and they'll miss her. This makes no sense given the context of the sundering unless we assume that the people aiding Venat were not aware that was her intention, which makes her character even worse. Plus, the Hydaelyn primal is more akin to Ysayle as Shiva than Elidibus as Zodiark, so even the heart comment seems odd knowing what we know now.

Anyway, as for the "perfect" worlds, I know it's asking a lot for realism in a fantasy setting video game, but the will to live is the strongest instinct we know of in living creatures. The idea that one planet would collectively decide to die beggared belief let alone this being any sort of common occurrence throughout the universe. Plus, "perfection" as studied in other creatures, like rats, doesn't result in that. Typically what happens is after you've removed the need to worry about food, shelter, and predators, the animals become bored. Lacking purpose, they start turning on each other and in some cases drive themselves to extinction. I don't recall a world like that. The closest would've been the one that engaged in a civil war, but "perfection" would have led to a more chaotic situation. The Ra-la planet was also fine before Metetion arrived, it's stated in the notes in the Dead Ends that her arrival and incessant questioning spurred their existential crisis.

None of this even matters though, since there was no stopping the Final Days it would've served to shake up whatever "perfect" (subjective!) world the Ancients had and forced them to collectively face a common threat, which likely would've made them stronger individually and as a whole. The Ancients loved their star and they were intelligent beings, they would've come together and done whatever it took to save it (and did with Zodiark), so to say that they were incapable of handling a crisis or deal with suffering is simply false. Ultimately, they weren't given a chance to prove themselves. It's another reason I hate that post-Elpis montage, it came across as incredibly judgmental and tone deaf.

I don't believe it was a great mess, there was some great points in this expansion. But yes, I agree with you. Especially for this point:

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Originally Posted by crimsonwitch

- odd pacing, we are playing dressup with bunnies while the world is ending at radz at han.

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They added so much irrelevant points, because of fan service or because they feared the history became so much dark. And this turned all the "final days" thing a joke. I only felt urgency in stop the final days 1 time, and after that, I was searching for Hermes for 300 times in Elpis, or trying to make a bird happy, while the NPCs are in a supost more interesting conversation without me (more interesting than make a bird happy).
I only had 1 expectation about the history, a answer about how Hydaelin broke Zoldiark, because I interpreted him more powerful than her. But nothing. I don't know if I lost something, but I felt they don't give us details about anything at all.

I loved the idea to take a walk with NPCs, but this method needs more "polishing". Let me make more clear: a half of conversations while you walk with the NPCs are "hey, we need to turn left!" "hey, we need to go up the stairs", and a big part of the rest are irrelevant quotes, like the world is ending in Radz, and Graha stopped you to say about tapestry.

I know my opinion is unpopular, but I think they had a great opportunity here, but they missed because of fear to turn things darkest (?)

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Originally Posted by Palladiamors

Their solution was to sacrifice half of their remaining number to try to reclaim what they had lost, create a bunch of new people and races and what have you and then sacrifice ALL of them to bring back the people they'd originally sacrificed, all without actually fixing the problem. To make it even worse people sacrificed to Zodiark didn't even get to return to the Aetherial Sea, they had to remain trapped in Zodiark. As a society the Ascians might have meant well but man when the crud hit the fan they went downhill quick. The Ascians after the Final Days were villains, plain and simple.

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Once again i dont know where people are getting this idea they created a bunch of new people and races just to sacrifice all of them. From what Hythlodaeus tells us, they were going to use a PORTION of the new life to bring back their loved ones, not all of it. Also should be an important distinction between Ancients and Ascians as they are technically two different things. Pesronally though i dont regard the ascians as just being clear cut villains. They were doing what they could to bring back the star to the way it once was, to a stable world. The devs had elaborated awhile back that the sundering had actually made the world unstable and it was a very bad and dangerous thing but this was never elaborated on sadly.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Once again i dont know where people are getting this idea they created a bunch of new people and races just to sacrifice all of them. From what Hythlodaeus tells us, they were going to use a PORTION of the new life to bring back their loved ones, not all of it. Also should be an important distinction between Ancients and Ascians as they are technically two different things. Pesronally though i dont regard the ascians as just being clear cut villains. They were doing what they could to bring back the star to the way it once was, to a stable world. The devs had elaborated awhile back that the sundering had actually made the world unstable and it was a very bad and dangerous thing but this was never elaborated on sadly.

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Oh I'm SORRY Mr. Pedantic, they were only going to sacrifice a BUNCH of people instead of all of them. And then they went around ending ENTIRE WORLDS. Point still stands, they were villains, period.

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Originally Posted by Palladiamors

Oh I'm SORRY Mr. Pedantic, they were only going to sacrifice a BUNCH of people instead of all of them. And then they went around ending ENTIRE WORLDS. Point still stands, they were villains, period.

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It’s not about being pedantic, it’s the case that someone mentioned earlier of people getting their own headcanon mixed in with actual lore which is kind of a big detriment for people who are trying to debate and argue the actual lore of the game. Let’s not forget the devs themselves have stated the ascians aren’t outright villains and that everyone in the story is pretty morally grey. The entire story up to EW has been a battle of perspectives. Yes they went around ending entire worlds AFTER the sundering occurred. We were originally talking about before any of that happened in which people in this thread have been vocalizing that they were mass sacrificing and Zodiark was forcing them to give him more and more aether when there’s nothing that supports that. I prefer to stick to specifics and facts than headcanon personally but you’re allowed to do what you wish, just make sure you try and support your argument with sources, like i asked someone to do earlier when they claimed zodiark was asking for more aether. :)

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Originally Posted by Palladiamors

Oh I'm SORRY Mr. Pedantic, they were only going to sacrifice a BUNCH of people instead of all of them. And then they went around ending ENTIRE WORLDS. Point still stands, they were villains, period.

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And I suppose we're meant to just ignore the individual who shattered the world into 14 fragments without much forewarning and their role in it all? Also, again, note that what they were going to sacrifice has never been specified. It may well have been arcane creations on the order of the familiars they created in Elpis, which can gain souls. Those may in some cases resemble the sundered life forms to some degree but they would not be anything like what the ancients recognised as people.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I think they ended up retconning some of the Anyder stuff. The scene just after that one of them asks why Venat has to be the heart, that they need her as their leader and they'll miss her. This makes no sense given the context of the sundering unless we assume that the people aiding Venat were not aware that was her intention, which makes her character even worse. Plus, the Hydaelyn primal is more akin to Ysayle as Shiva than Elidibus as Zodiark, so even the heart comment seems odd knowing what we know now.

Anyway, as for the "perfect" worlds, I know it's asking a lot for realism in a fantasy setting video game, but the will to live is the strongest instinct we know of in living creatures. The idea that one planet would collectively decide to die beggared belief let alone this being any sort of common occurrence throughout the universe. Plus, "perfection" as studied in other creatures, like rats, doesn't result in that. Typically what happens is after you've removed the need to worry about food, shelter, and predators, the animals become bored. Lacking purpose, they start turning on each other and in some cases drive themselves to extinction. I don't recall a world like that. The closest would've been the one that engaged in a civil war, but "perfection" would have led to a more chaotic situation. The Ra-la planet was also fine before Metetion arrived, it's stated in the notes in the Dead Ends that her arrival and incessant questioning spurred their existential crisis.

None of this even matters though, since there was no stopping the Final Days it would've served to shake up whatever "perfect" (subjective!) world the Ancients had and forced them to collectively face a common threat, which likely would've made them stronger individually and as a whole. The Ancients loved their star and they were intelligent beings, they would've come together and done whatever it took to save it (and did with Zodiark), so to say that they were incapable of handling a crisis or deal with suffering is simply false. Ultimately, they weren't given a chance to prove themselves. It's another reason I hate that post-Elpis montage, it came across as incredibly judgmental and tone deaf.

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It was, and without her giving a proper account of why she believed what she did, it was unlikely she'd be able to convince them.

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Originally Posted by Palladiamors

Oh I'm SORRY Mr. Pedantic, they were only going to sacrifice a BUNCH of people instead of all of them. And then they went around ending ENTIRE WORLDS. Point still stands, they were villains, period.

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Perhaps Yoshi-P's own take on the situation would provide further context and clairity, then. The most relevant point being in bold:

Q: With each new expansion new themes are introduced and are focused on. How does the team decide on which themes to focus on with each new expansion?

Naoki Yoshida: The major themes for the expansion would be first conveyed from me as the game’s director to the development team. Although it is somewhat difficult to describe my personal decision-making process it could be summarised as [requiring a sense of] surprise and fun. This contains a dual meaning in that I assess whether as developers ourselves we would encounter surprises while enjoying the production process, at the same time as considering whether the story of the expansion would be exciting and fun for the players. In the last expansion Shadowbringers, I had thought that players must have grown tired of being referred to as a Warrior of Light. I also came up with the idea of reversing the conventional notion of light equating to justice or something holy and darkness equating to evil or something bad to generate a sense of surprise.

The current state of global affairs is incredibly complex and simple two-dimensional theories of good/bad from ancient times can no longer quantify this world we live in. As such, a large factor [that contributed to the selection of these themes] is that I thought I could cultivate new values and a new sense of realisation within myself by changing perspective and carefully considering the other party’s arguments in regard to a given event. Half of the time these things are born from one’s intuition and flashes of inspiration. I guessed as much but it really is hard to explain. (laughs)

Source: https://www.impulsegamer.com/naoki-y...vs-lore-story/

Such was in regards to Shadowbringers, though it's very readily applicable to Endwalker as well. You're free to reduce the Ascians to mere 'villains' if you so wish, though given that they were simply working to restore their loved ones I daresay it's a bit more nuanced than that. Ultimately they were simply striving to reverse something that would never have happened in the first place.

Just as it makes sense for the Sundered to not necessarily want to roll over and die for the sake of the Unsundered, the opposite is true as well. Let's also not forget that the Scions themselves admitted that they would work towards the same goal if they, themselves, were in Emet-Selch's position.

EW's story is all over the place and a narrative mess, and it becomes pretty obvious when you go to Radz-at-han. Suddenly this nation is the most important nation of the entire Planetos just because it's new.

Wards for tempering despite never having to deal with Primals and tempering before? Radz-at-han.
The first manifestation of the Final Days? Radz-at-han.
Best friends with Sharlayan? Radz-at-han.
Role quests? Radz-at-han.

Later, while doing the Ultima Thule series of quests, I queued for leveling roulette on my MNK. I got sent to Tower of Zot and had a moment of "...wait a second, this was THIS expansion!". The whole "tempering towers" part feels so disconnected from the later parts of the story. Not to mention Garlemald which I was very hyped to finally being able to visit and it ends up being such a wasted potential.

The whole section previous to Zodiark's defeat feels like it should have belonged to Post-ShB since it feels like a rushed setup to the (also rushed) 2nd part of the plot. Maybe if they had done that they would have had more time to develop Hermes' motivation and specially Meteion so as not to have her go from Incorruptible Pure Child to "MURDER DEATH KILL" emo mode.

It's amazing how despite being heavily criticized SB managed to tell 2 separate stories more coherently, and even more surprising coming off ShB which had improved on SBs shortcomings, EW felt like 2 steps backwards.

My only criticism is that it felt far too short for the amount of holes they wanted to plug and the amount of information they wished to cover. I feel like they would have needed to extend it quite a bit more, to be honest. Not enough to warrant an entirely new expansion, but by still quite a bit.

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Originally Posted by LukaRoselia

Glad I wasn't alone in that. The entire Lopporrits arc just felt like serious comic relief annoyance to me. The freaking world is ending down there, people are dying, losing their families, homes and we're just playing dress up and giving our opinions on some freaking moon bunnies fashion designs. Wtf.

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Oh you're not the only one for sure. I don't mind the arc itself but it was seriously out of place. We just killed Zodiac (the big bad we're been after years), trigger the Final Day ... then cute bunny happens.

Like ... I don't even understand how Yoshi or whoever in charge approved. The story is built up to an explosive point ... then they just killed off all tension. Whoever make the storyboard for EndWalker doesn't have the concept of "momentum". It's like they want each zone a self-contained story rather flowing from one to the next.

I see that there are still people larping about how they wouldn't sacrifice some chimpanzees/bonobos to bring back their loved ones and friends
pat yourself on the back for your moral superiority.

What do you know, PvP at lore topics is hardcore. Not even BDO get this toxic :P

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Oh you're not the only one for sure. I don't mind the arc itself but it was seriously out of place. We just killed Zodiac (the big bad we're been after years), trigger the Final Day ... then cute bunny happens.

Like ... I don't even understand how Yoshi or whoever in charge approved. The story is built up to an explosive point ... then they just killed off all tension. Whoever make the storyboard for EndWalker doesn't have the concept of "momentum". It's like they want each zone a self-contained story rather flowing from one to the next.

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WoL and others did not know when the Final Days will commence and trying to learn more about that topic by talking to lopporrits made sense. IMO, lasted more than was needed but still I get that they were trying to relax all that tension to then hit us again once we are back.

Did not work for me, I don't like those big changes in mood. However, knowing the most vocal part of the player base certain decisions make a lot of sense.

I may have spoiled myself a little (am I to understand Zenos dies), but I just started, "Going Underground" and I must say everything feels...slower than it should. Going underground is a level 88 quest, yet it feels like I'm only halfway through the story. I would have expected finding and stopping Meteion to be a bigger thing, maybe with her trying to stop us along the way, yet I'm about to help the forum with their Aetherburner and possibly faff about with the rabbits.

Without spoiling, can anyone tell me if the story ending is satisfying to you?

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Originally Posted by Adonan

I may have spoiled myself a little (am I to understand Zenos dies), but I just started, "Going Underground" and I must say everything feels...slower than it should. Going underground is a level 88 quest, yet it feels like I'm only halfway through the story. I would have expected finding and stopping Meteion to be a bigger thing, maybe with her trying to stop us along the way, yet I'm about to help the forum with their Aetherburner and possibly faff about with the rabbits.

Without spoiling, can anyone tell me if the story ending is satisfying to you?

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I’d say about 75% of the story isn’t satisfying for me. The ending specifically? I wouldn’t play the ending of the game for my least favorite person in the world its torture.

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Originally Posted by Adonan

I may have spoiled myself a little (am I to understand Zenos dies), but I just started, "Going Underground" and I must say everything feels...slower than it should. Going underground is a level 88 quest, yet it feels like I'm only halfway through the story. I would have expected finding and stopping Meteion to be a bigger thing, maybe with her trying to stop us along the way, yet I'm about to help the forum with their Aetherburner and possibly faff about with the rabbits.

Without spoiling, can anyone tell me if the story ending is satisfying to you?

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I'd say 50/50. The final boss is portrayed well, but then they shoehorn in another character in an anticlimactic way.

I was really frustrated that the same franchise uses two forms of time travel for literally no reason.

If Elpis reused multiverse theory it would have been perfect. Instead we need to believe that Venat consigned everyone she knew and loved to an awful death because the WoL was just a really cool dude.

Other than that the MSQ was amazing in some parts and awful in others. It could have used tighter pacing and less padding. With one less antagonist. Overall 6.5/10.

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Originally Posted by HappyHubris

If Elpis reused multiverse theory it would have been perfect. Instead we need to believe that Venat consigned everyone she knew and loved to an awful death because the WoL was just a really cool dude.

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Yeah they should really stay away from time travel and alternate dimensions.

The notion that after Emet and Hythlodaeus get their memory wiped Venat decides not to try to pledge her case again in a society where open debate is promoted and accepted is hilarious in it's narrative amateurishness.

At the very least she could have convinced the Convocation to ban creation magicks within cities to reduce the number of abominations that spawn. Then once the Final Days began proving her crazy ramblings right, they could all have worked together to either send Zodiark to defeat Meteion or throw an Aether nuke at her.

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Originally Posted by HappyHubris

If Elpis reused multiverse theory it would have been perfect. Instead we need to believe that Venat consigned everyone she knew and loved to an awful death because the WoL was just a really cool dude.

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Originally Posted by lezard21

The notion that after Emet and Hythlodaeus get their memory wiped Venat decides not to try to pledge her case again in a society where open debate is promoted and accepted is hilarious in it's narrative amateurishness.

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It was the easy way out for the writers. Writing about a multiverse or an altered timeline would've made the plot quite a bit more complicated. The memory erasure and Venat's inaction were more for the convenience of the writers rather than good story telling.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

It was the easy way out for the writers. Writing about a multiverse or an altered timeline would've made the plot quite a bit more complicated. The memory erasure and Venat's inaction were more for the convenience of the writers rather than good story telling.

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And yet people still claim that the story was good, rather than a narrative disaster.

Well, to each their own... I honestly didn't play a game with such a good story. There are small flaws here and there, but they're completely overshadowed by the bigger picture.

I see a lot of people complaining about the pacing... I'm the only one who actually really loved the pacing? It feels like the more quitet bits are kind of a break or calm before the storm. Probably without them, it would feel more exhaustive... A tip, is that I found those zones to be much more enjoyable if you go through them rested, and not like after 5 hours of playing a really dramatic and busy one.

The only thing that disappointed me a bit is that the world didn't really "burn". Maybe it would be too much for the time constraints, but I was really expecting more losses and destruction in old zones. Thought that would be explored like between Elpis and the last zone. Imagine how would be cool if that "zone" was the one you started your character, and when you finished it you'd get a system message saying that you can replay the other 2 zones in the future New Game +.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

And yet people still claim that the story was good, rather than a narrative disaster.

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This is mostly because millenials don't know what a book or movie is, unless it's some high school robot waifu manga or Marvel Super Hero Movie #3884. Whenever they consume any other media outside of these 2 genres it's suddenly the best written literary masterpiece ever (ie. Squid Games)

Then there's also copium making them unable to accept that the thing they like might be flawed and accept it despite it's flaws. It's either perfect or WoW. No inbetweens.

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Originally Posted by lezard21

This is mostly because millenials don't know what a book or movie is, unless it's some high school robot waifu manga or Marvel Super Hero Movie #3884. Whenever they consume any other media outside of these 2 genres it's suddenly the best written literary masterpiece ever.

Then there's also copium making them unable to accept that the thing they like might be flawed and accept it despite it's flaws. It's either perfect or WoW. No inbetweens.

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The fact this is so accurate is both amazing and sad lol