So this started happening.

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Originally Posted by Valknut

Try reading, it helps understand peoples points.

"Yes TBN is a good skill, the rest of DRKs kit does not make up for it. HoC, is a good skill the rest of Gnb kit is assisting it"

Drk is worse hands down then other tanks in dungeons, its hands down worse for prog, and its hands down worse in the hands of 90% of players then just playing GNB/WAR* for DPS.

Do you have any information that disputes this?

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I read and your first point was "You picked the one tank noone is comparing DRK to.", and in the next sentence you´re going to compare it meanwhile others already compared it, so what?!

And how does GNB´s kit assist HoC? It´s a solo-def with damage reduction into heal if necessary. It would probably even wasted to use any other def into it, since you might waste some of the healings potency if you don´t drop low enough. And you clearly don´t want to combine it with Aurora. On the other hand you´ve Camouflage, yes a great skill which is more effective against multitarget than singletarget.
On the other hand you´ve DRK with pure damage reduction skills and a barrier. TBN and HoC are already comparable, Dark Mind is not so good against physical trash, but it´s a 3rd hard def against any encounter with magical damage with less cd than camouflage. Aurora and Oblation will always depend. If the incoming damage is pretty high withing the 10s, Oblation will outclass Aurora. If you just eat 1-3 hits or a tankbuster, Aurora might reward you with an overall bigger heal than the damage reduction would´ve been over the time.

So far both are easy comparable and it depends more on the encounter which one is superior and which one is not. (And it´s up to the player to use it wisely.) Of course GNB is better in bigpulls, but in kind of bosses, or for the prog? I guess not since the most damage income is magical especially in savage. And with BLN you can safe yourself or someone else, which is way superior in progs than trying to heal someone dead afterwards. Such situations exists more than enough when 1-2 ppl are missing but the damage is spreaded over the last 6 players, which means dead healers.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

I read and your first point was "You picked the one tank noone is comparing DRK to.", and in the next sentence you´re going to compare it meanwhile others already compared it, so what?!

And how does GNB´s kit assist HoC? It´s a solo-def with damage reduction into heal if necessary. It would probably even wasted to use any other def into it, since you might waste some of the healings potency if you don´t drop low enough. And you clearly don´t want to combine it with Aurora. On the other hand you´ve Camouflage, yes a great skill which is more effective against multitarget than singletarget.
On the other hand you´ve DRK with pure damage reduction skills and a barrier. TBN and HoC are already comparable, Dark Mind is not so good against physical trash, but it´s a 3rd hard def against any encounter with magical damage with less cd than camouflage. Aurora and Oblation will always depend. If the incoming damage is pretty high withing the 10s, Oblation will outclass Aurora. If you just eat 1-3 hits or a tankbuster, Aurora might reward you with an overall bigger heal than the damage reduction would´ve been over the time.

So far both are easy comparable and it depends more on the encounter which one is superior and which one is not. (And it´s up to the player to use it wisely.) Of course GNB is better in bigpulls, but in kind of bosses, or for the prog? I guess not since the most damage income is magical especially in savage. And with BLN you can safe yourself or someone else, which is way superior in progs than trying to heal someone dead afterwards. Such situations exists more than enough when 1-2 ppl are missing but the damage is spreaded over the last 6 players, which means dead healers.

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Just saying the Heart of Corundum heal WILL trigger no matter what once it ends, it simply triggers earlier as soon as you dip below 50%

Heart of Corundum gives 30% damage reduction of the first 4 seconds to drop later to 15% but only with that is already comparable to TBN(just a bit worse if we compare only that), add a 900 potency heal after 20 seconds OR as soon as you drop below 50% and TBN looks like a sad joke in comparison.

Yeah Heart of Corundum can sometimes overheal yes but following that reasoning you can also fail to pop TBN and waste 3k mp which is far worse than simply wasting part of a short cd skill. Thats why TBN is the least used short cd skill of all tanks due to the cost slapped on it. you can use the others to just mitigate fluff damage if you want, but cant do with TBN unless you are 100% sure the shield is gonna pop each time you use it or you get penalized for using the skill

Oblation is basically a bandaid to compensate DRK lacking one defensive whenever they dont get hit by magic atacks and no, tankbusters are not always magical even if most raid wide aoes usually are magic damage

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

Just saying the Heart of Corundum heal WILL trigger no matter what once it ends, it simply triggers earlier as soon as you dip below 50%

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I know how it works, doesn´t change my statement. Any other def, heal, etc can fck up the second instance of the skill.

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

Heart of Corundum gives 30% damage reduction of the first 4 seconds to drop later to 15% but only with that is already comparable to TBN(just a bit worse if we compare only that), add a 900 potency heal after 20 seconds OR as soon as you drop below 50% and TBN looks like a sad joke in comparison.

Yeah Heart of Corundum can sometimes overheal yes but following that reasoning you can also fail to pop TBN and waste 3k mp which is far worse than simply wasting part of a short cd skill. Thats why TBN is the least used short cd skill of all tanks due to the cost slapped on it. you can use the others to just mitigate fluff damage if you want, but cant do with TBN unless you are 100% sure the shield is gonna pop each time you use it or you get penalized for using the skill

Oblation is basically a bandaid to compensate DRK lacking one defensive whenever they dont get hit by magic atacks and no, tankbusters are not always magical even if most raid wide aoes usually are magic damage

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I´ve already posted the checked numbers of someone else. TBN is a bit weaker, but sits on a lower cooldown and can be used way more often. That´s some form of balancing. Seriously if we´re talking about the effectiveness, you don´t want to use the others to mitigate fluff damage. Therefor you´ve stuff like Aurora, Oblation... Ofc TBN is able to go into nowhere with a bad use too. You gonna lose damage, but since DRK is top damage tank, you´ve a buffer to compensate it.
And calling Oblation a bandaid is the same like calling Aurora or other skills a bandaid. They´re not super strong, not super low, the use and effectiveness based on the circumstances. It´s nothing special, but not a bad addition also especially since you´re ablt to use it on a teammember. As i´ve said, the real killers are the damage income, not the 30s time for heal afterwards.

Yes, not every TB is magical too, but there are some and overall 80-90% of the whole raids is magical damage.

And again, DRK and GNB might work a bit different, but they´re comparable in its kit and half of their kit has an even way of use (Roleskills, 123, Group-mitigation, invul). So far i would call both balanced out to each other. Who makes more use out of its kit is based on the content and the player behind it.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

I know how it works, doesn´t change my statement. Any other def, heal, etc can fck up the second instance of the skill.



I´ve already posted the checked numbers of someone else. BLN is a bit weaker, but sits on a lower cooldown and can be used way more often. That´s some form of balancing. Seriously if we´re talking about the effectiveness, you don´t want to use the others to mitigate fluff damage. Therefor you´ve stuff like Aurora, Oblation... Ofc BLN is able to go into nowhere with a bad use too. You gonna lose damage, but since DRK is top damage tank, you´ve a buffer to compensate it.
And calling Oblation a bandaid is the same like calling Aurora or other skills a bandaid. They´re not super strong, not super low, the use and effectiveness based on the circumstances. It´s nothing special, but not a bad addition also especially since you´re ablt to use it on a teammember. As i´ve said, the real killers are the damage income, not the 30s time for heal afterwards.

Yes, not every TB is magical too, but there are some and overall 80-90% of the whole raids is magical damage.

And again, DRK and GNB might work a bit different, but they´re comparable in its kit and half of their kit has an even way of use (Roleskills, 123, Group-mitigation, invul). So far i would call both balanced out to each other. Who makes more use out of its kit is based on the content and the player behind it.

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TBN lower cooldown is actually a trap because you rarely will be able to use each 15 seconds unless you are talking about mass pulling on dungeons where it will last 2-3 seconds at most and is over unlike their equivalents that last their full duration no matter what . Bosses auto atacks once geared are usually unable to break TBN by themselves, unless they add something else before TBN ends. You can see that on endgame TBN uses are low in comparison to the other tanks equivalents despite having lower cd

Oblation is better than nothing, thats the best you can say about it considering that things that Shield Samba exist affecting everyone in the group with a comparable cd (90 seconds cd 15 seconds duration vs 10 seconds duration 60 cd and shielding full team> shielding 2 persons) avoiding the clunkyness of having to target someone. If its really needed to save someone you use TBN not Oblation because the mitigation is so low that is only useful to reduce fluff damage (Samba is good in those cases because it reduces damage to everyone not a single/two person), unless you consider for example Monk a defense god for having 20% damage reduction per stack with Riddle of Earth. I can count with my hands the times a mere 10% mitigation saved someone, those are more for easing the healer's job unless you stack several cds at once to try to save someone with vul stacks for example.

When a tank defense cd can be compared to DPS defensive cds you know that skill is really weak for a tank

I think you are mistaking raid wide aoes that are indeed the norm being magical with the tankbusters that they become far more varied being equally split on being physical and magical to avoid the HW Alexander mess where everything was magical and hugely benefitted DRK in PLD detriment.

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

TBN lower cooldown is actually a trap because you rarely will be able to use each 15 seconds unless you are talking about mass pulling on dungeons where it will last 2-3 seconds at most and is over unlike their equivalents that last their full duration no matter what . Bosses auto atacks once geared are usually unable to break TBN by themselves, unless they add something else before TBN ends. You can see that on endgame TBN uses are low in comparison to the other tanks equivalents despite having lower cd

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If you use TBN at the right moments, a bunch of bosses trigger it with autoattacks. And you can still make use of it inbetween on any random partymember or on the MT if you´re OT. And well, the most cry is about big pulls and to have something with a low cd seems legit to me.

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

Oblation is better than nothing, thats the best you can say about it considering that things that Shield Samba exist affecting everyone in the group with a comparable cd (90 seconds cd 15 seconds duration vs 10 seconds duration 60 cd and shielding full team> shielding 2 persons) avoiding the clunkyness of having to target someone. If its really needed to save someone you use TBN not Oblation because the mitigation is so low that is only useful to reduce fluff damage (Samba is good in those cases because it reduces damage to everyone not a single/two person), unless you consider for example Monk a defense god for having 20% damage reduction per stack with Riddle of Earth. I can count with my hands the times a mere 10% mitigation saved someone, those are more for easing the healer's job unless you stack several cds at once to try to save someone with vul stacks for example.

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I didn´t say "it´s better than nothing." I said it´s not superior, but it isn´t bad either. And we´re talking about what tanks have, not which group mitigation exists. Both have different uses, while one is good for aoe ofc, the other can always be used as MT or to protect the current MT... maybe even that DPS / healer who ate a ground-effect right before the raid-wide. I´ve safed more than enough ppl by using TBN or similar tools on other tanks before.
Overall your comparison lacks aswell. Oblation has 2 charges and stuff like Shield Samba might only take 1 hit for the whole group, unless it´s one of the "new" overused multistacks. Going so far a bunch of things are just "bandaids" or be there to be there...

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

When a tank defense cd can be compared to DPS defensive cds you know that skill is really weak for a tank

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Imo it just looks like your try to find arguments to assist your claim. How about MNK´s RoE? 20% damage reduction for 10s or 3 skills with 3 charges and 30s reload. Looks like it shits on any tankdef out there but the uniques one. Or how about Reapers grouphealing making healers somehow obsolete?

Just because some DPS have broken tools to assist the group or to keep themselves alive, doesn´t mean that other stuff is crap. Going so far a bunch of things are just "bandaids" or be there to be there... You might don´t like it, but Oblation is fine and has its possibilities. Not everything needs to be overtuned.

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

I think you are mistaking raid wide aoes that are indeed the norm being magical with the tankbusters that they become far more varied being equally split on being physical and magical to avoid the HW Alexander mess where everything was magical and hugely benefitted DRK in PLD detriment.

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I´m not mistaking raid-wide aoes. E11 and even E9 TB´s for example have been magical if i remember correctly. Don´t know about the others, some even share stuff. Would need to check it. The most stuff in raids is magical and again, barriers and dmg-red are superior in prog, while hots and flat damage are in farm. You´ve normally enough time to heal between any encounters.

EDIT: Given to ff.logs, the new tier seems to have 3x magical and 1x physical tb. The 3rd boss seem to attack the OT with magical damage, while the MT gets physical autohits. But i´m not sure if i interpreted it correctly. Looks like DRK suits in his OT role now.

As a main healer i must also admit that the DRK is the most heal intensive tank atm. In expert dungeons when the DRK tank pulls two groups i must pump healing like crazy and hope that most enemies die before i run out of cooldowns.

The DRK is really broken atm and way weaker than the other tanks.

Cheers

You aren't adding anything to the discussion Sunny. Tanks don't die to freaking tank busters FFS.

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Originally Posted by Valknut

You aren't adding anything to the discussion Sunny. Tanks don't die to freaking tank busters FFS.

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Why does tanks need even defs then? For big pulls only? Maybe just pull less? The most tanks i know need to jump from the platform, because the whole raid is dead. So yeah, get ride of them all!
But : "Oh no, someone don´t wants everything to be broken, please go away! We need this game being braindead mode!"


I argue about big pulls and you guys are like "it´s about everything". So i argue about everything and you guys are like "we dont compare it to GNB, we don´t count tankbusters, content doesn´t matter here, etc...". Just LOL.

EDIT: Btw your claim shows that you´ve actually no clue and probably don´t even touch savage. (if even EX?)

Go on, keep gatekeeping.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

The 3rd boss seem to attack the OT with magical damage, while the MT gets physical autohits.

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That's what I first thought, but it's actually still blunt the Sunbirds auto attacks fused with Phoinix.

Unless this can be corrected.

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

That's what I first thought, but it's actually still blunt the Sunbirds auto attacks fused with Phoinix.

Unless this can be corrected.

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Don´t know if i understand correctly what you mean. Do you mean that they hit at the same frequency like Phoinix or that they hit they MT only?!
The sunbirds solo seem to do physical. The dead ones flying around Phoinix seem to be magical and attack the guy 2nd in the aggro-list. (OT so far.)

Now I'm imagining a ffxiv cartoon where an adventurer party are beat up badly and praying for a healer to save them, then a godly warrior arrives on a pegasus and cleaves everyone to full HP.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

Don´t know if i understand correctly what you mean. Do you mean that they hit at the same frequency like Phoinix or that they hit they MT only?!
The sunbirds solo seem to do physical. The dead ones flying around Phoinix seem to be magical and attack the guy 2nd in the aggro-list. (OT so far.)

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When the sunbirds are fused with Phoinix, and Phoinix are attacking both tanks, they both do blunt damage.

Sunbirds as adds do Piercing damage.

I checked this a couple days ago when farming, raid mate received Blunt from autos, and I was Main tanking as Paladin.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

Why does tanks need even defs then? For big pulls only? Maybe just pull less? The most tanks i know need to jump from the platform, because the whole raid is dead. So yeah, get ride of them all!
But : "Oh no, someone don´t wants everything to be broken, please go away! We need this game being braindead mode!"


I argue about big pulls and you guys are like "it´s about everything". So i argue about everything and you guys are like "we dont compare it to GNB, we don´t count tankbusters, content doesn´t matter here, etc...". Just LOL.

EDIT: Btw your claim shows that you´ve actually no clue and probably don´t even touch savage. (if even EX?)

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You can compare it to whatever you want, GNB is better in sustain and mitigation in most scenarios EX or savage then DRK is, also in dungeons, also in prog.

PS if you tank dmg is your bottle neck in savage, I'd argue you aren't/have never done any savage or EX either, because for one. Your tanks should always be that last things alive.

There is only one place tank dmg is a problem, and that is wall to wall pulling. If you are dying to a solo encounter be it savage or boss. That's all on you, no matter what tank you are playing.

You keep saying so much, yet also saying nothing all at once.

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Originally Posted by Valknut

You can compare it to whatever you want, GNB is better in sustain and mitigation in most scenarios EX or savage then DRK is, also in dungeons, also in prog.

PS if you tank dmg is your bottle neck in savage, I'd argue you aren't/have never done any savage or EX either, because for one. Your tanks should always be that last things alive.

There is only one place tank dmg is a problem, and that is wall to wall pulling. If you are dying to a solo encounter be it savage or boss. That's all on you, no matter what tank you are playing.

You keep saying so much, yet also saying nothing all at once.

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Ever tried E12s where you have to burn your cooldowns into a tankbuster no?!

Stop claiming things, and stop talking bs seriously. More than enough tanks die to a tankbuster for whatever reason. But yeah, one thing you got right "Your tank should always be that last thing alive."... guess why? BECAUSE THEY`RE BROKEN and using a def into telegraphs is far away from being skilled.

Like it or not, but i´ve stated a bunch of objectively seen stuff too. Just because you clearly ignore facts, stats and possibilities, doesn´t mean that they´re wrong or shouldn´t be taken in consideration.
You guys just want everything to be broken, when it´s already is. You compare things, just to ignore the others to cater your own arguments, and and and... you want DRK to be buffed, not for the kind of game-balancing, just because a broken WAR is running around and the most call 10 minutes braindead dungeon runs "fun".

"But Sunny, the healer died and i don´t want to rely on them, i want to be that 1 man army!" Maybe protect him? Maybe teach him? Maybe ask for better content than pointless one-shot mechanics?

So much controverse claims and in the end we´re back at the bigpulls. This is laughable at best. Get out of your box and start playing srsly. So who is next claiming it´s not about bigpulls in dungeons, it´s about everything or just WAR / PLD or any content, but not raids, not savage, maybe only savage, who knows...

Maybe we should bring everything on the level of WAR and delete any other classes. Should be comfortable.

No your wrong, if your in savage and pressing CDs for damage is your issue on a tank, then you are your raids problem.

"Ever tried E12s where you have to burn your cooldowns into a tankbuster no?!"

Does every tank have to burn CDs? So what is the problem? You know the damage is coming, the healers do as well. THIS IS A NON-ISSUE. You focus on all the wrong parts of tanking. Raid tanking has 0 issues for all tanks! Because there are 2 frigging tanks, and 2 frigging healers! You 4 have so much mitigation combined it will change nothing if the party comp is DRK/DRK GNB/GNB SCH/SCH any of them will work want to know how i know they will? because FFlogs tells me anything can do the thing you are complaining about with ease.

Your such a waste of time. Bitching about Savage on tanks? The easiest role to play in savage. Cool Ya thats where everyone cares about tank balance, where it litteraly is brought down to " Which tank does most DPS HUUUUUUUUUUUUUURRRRRRR DEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE"

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Originally Posted by Valknut

Does every tank have to burn CDs? So what is the problem? You know the damage is coming, the healers do as well. THIS IS A NON-ISSUE.

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Not to join the argument, E12S did dual double tank busters that needed an Invuln, or burned both cooldowns with a tank swap just to reduce damage a little.

E10S busters strike 4x with each hit increasing and the 1st hit is a tank buster, stacking 10-20k each time, attacking every 1 second.

E12S tanks were basically dead without both of their cooldowns and having O-GCD support just to stay alive.

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Originally Posted by Valknut

Snip

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Scroll back a bit and think about what i´ve written down yet.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

DRK don´t have any issues. It´s more about "player-made" issues imo. You and others here just compare tanks, but don´t look at the whole game.

- Every content can be played with any tank.
- Every tank is able to solo pretty much any boss unless you get a x-times stack. (DRK might even the boss for such stacks with his barrier.)
- The damage-income in current bossfights is pretty much not existent.
- Healers have not a lot to do and never use any GCD´s unless things go nuts.
- Big pulls are the only real fear and you´re even able to avoid them.
- There are only 2 dungeons with 2 addgroups which hit really hard, yes even WAR and PLD. I´ve seen both dieing at Zot last pull.
- Ppl, who´ve sit on high end gear the last year, running around with crapgear and new scalings now and judge "out of a comfortzone".

Tanks have been broken since SHB. WAR is even more broken with the buffed skills now, that´s something i agree with. But why does the rest needs to be on that level? Why does WAR not just get a nerf? PLD might be somehow easy-mode with clemency too, but atleast you need to sacrifice something. On the other hand you´ve DRK with top damage. So... should we upgrade WAR or PLD on the DRK level of damage output?

There is no need to make everything so braindead and broken as WAR is imo, when all tanks are way too strong if we look at the games overall state. The real issue is that tanks have been broken way too long already, so ppl don´t want to leave their comfortzone and want everything being a no-brainer instead of using defs correctly and to give the healer finally his job back.

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Then ppl showed up like "It´s about all content.", just to come up like "Content has no meaning.", and from "DRK is worse than any tank" to "Nobody compares DRK to GNB.", and so on.

Maybe decide what´s the actual issue? That the healer has to use his stuff? That you can´t just easily safe your whole party in dungeons as WAR is able to do? What?
You and others keep jumping around with that, not me. Of course everything can be done with any class, because the content is easy af and tanks are broken. So why does DRK need more self-sustain, to be super broken as WAR? Why shouldn´t we nerf it all to a decent spot to make healers more useful and to stop tanks from being those guys "5 vuln-stacks, yes baby idc"? Because you would lose your fun in tanking? What´s your point?


And yeah, Undead said already something about Tb´s... and that´s how they should look always, otherwise we don´t need ANY defs on tanks. Invul is way too overused too.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

Scroll back a bit and think about what i´ve written down yet.



Then ppl showed up like "It´s about all content.", just to come up like "Content has no meaning.", and from "DRK is worse than any tank" to "Nobody compares DRK to GNB.", and so on.

Maybe decide what´s the actual issue? That the healer has to use his stuff? That you can´t just easily safe your whole party in dungeons as WAR is able to do? What?
You and others keep jumping around with that, not me. Of course everything can be done with any class, because the content is easy af and tanks are broken. So why does DRK need more self-sustain, to be super broken as WAR? Why shouldn´t we nerf it all to a decent spot to make healers more useful and to stop tanks from being those guys "5 vuln-stacks, yes baby idc"? Because you would lose your fun in tanking? What´s your point?


And yeah, Undead said already something about Tb´s... and that´s how they should look always, otherwise we don´t need ANY defs on tanks. Invul is way too overused too.

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"
Your such a waste of time. Bitching about Savage on tanks? The easiest role to play in savage. Cool Ya thats where everyone cares about tank balance, where it litteraly is brought down to " Which tank does most DPS HUUUUUUUUUUUUUURRRRRRR DEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE" Once again

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

When the sunbirds are fused with Phoinix, and Phoinix are attacking both tanks, they both do blunt damage.

Sunbirds as adds do Piercing damage.

I checked this a couple days ago when farming, raid mate received Blunt from autos, and I was Main tanking as Paladin.

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The Sparkfledged in the second half of the fight that hit the OT definitely have magical auto-attacks. Dark Mind has a pretty obvious effect on them, they're listed as magical on every log, etc.

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Originally Posted by Crater

The Sparkfledged in the second half of the fight that hit the OT definitely have magical auto-attacks. Dark Mind has a pretty obvious effect on them, they're listed as magical on every log, etc.

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I'll need to have a look again when I go again, I was very sure I saw blunt on the registration.

I didnt experience this when leveling DRK but now that I am going in on my DPS I notice the 81-89 dungeons healers leave instantly if the tank is a DRK. Seen this only 3 times but thats enough to show concern

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Originally Posted by Derio

I didnt experience this when leveling DRK but now that I am going in on my DPS I notice the 81-89 dungeons healers leave instantly if the tank is a DRK. Seen this only 3 times but thats enough to show concern

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This isn't a problem for Dark Knight, it's a problem with Healer attitude.

Gunbreaker, Paladin, Dark Knight had little to no sustain in AOEs from Shadowbringers, and lower to a point Warrior had none. It's people getting spoiled with an easier mode and we shouldn't be encouraging this, making tanks more broken so they can continue spamming Cure 1/Benefic/Physick. I've dealt with Healers leaving because they only want to spam the lowest cure possible doing nothing else, they leave if they actually have to work.

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

Gunbreaker, Paladin, Dark Knight had little to no sustain in AOEs from Shadowbringers, and lower to a point Warrior had none.

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...Have we forgotten Nascent existed in Shadowbringers, Steel Cyclone in Stormblood, Equilibrium in Heavensward, and 30s (Marauder trait) Bloodbath in ARR (with a relative 990-potency self-heal on Inner Beast before 660 of that was sacrificed for a 6s 20% mitigation effect)?

Warrior has historically been the self-sustain tank.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

...Have we forgotten Nascent existed in Shadowbringers, Steel Cyclone in Stormblood, Equilibrium in Heavensward, and 30s (Marauder trait) Bloodbath in ARR?

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Bloodbath was nowhere near as effective as Nascent flash, it helped but didn't make you unkillable, no where close.

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

Bloodbath was nowhere near as effective as Nascent flash, it helped but didn't make you unkillable, no where close.

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Context. What self-sustain did ARR Paladin have? Warrior had one third uptime on a quarter of its DPS as HPS, the only tank AoEs, and self-heal on its resource (stacks, at the time) spenders.

Also,

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

I'll need to have a look again when I go again, I was very sure I saw blunt on the registration.

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Enemies effectively only have three damage types: Physical, Magical, and Non-typally-mitigatable (what NA and most of EU calls "Dark").

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Context. What self-sustain did ARR Paladin have? Marauder had one third uptime on a quarter of its DPS as HPS, the only tank AoEs, and self-heal on its gauge spenders.

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Paladins had none, but they were effective for raid groups in different ways after the Warrior rework in 2.1. Rage of Halone did a permanent -10% Strength, Stoneskin raid mates during off time, Flash to make busters chance of missing, Hallowed Ground.

The original Overpower had a long animation before taking effect, and Bloodbath did 25% damage to HP, Overpower barely did a lot making Bloodbath in the 100HP, or lower per hit, and HP was maxed out 5-6k+ pushing up to 10k till HW. Nascent Flash literally shoved you back to max.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Enemies effectively only have three damage types: Physical, Magical, and Non-typally-mitigatable (what NA and most of EU calls "Dark").

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In simple context, yes.

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

...

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I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. I'm not saying that Nascent wasn't a large leap forward in self-sustain. But Warrior has always been among the higher half or the highest in terms of self-sustain. It never had "lower" self-sustain than Paladin. It certainly never had "none".

No point, just making discussion, it's a forum after all.

The only history I can submit is Warrior 2.0 couldn't even remotely tank anything, no joke it really couldn't. Foresight/Vengeance only did Defense+ than damage % reduction, original Defiance reduced 25% damage and adding 25% HP. Raid bosses completely murdered it, couldn't even mass pull, until 2.1 which fixed the issues.

Seriously though, I admit the error.