People advertising they're running Parsers

i swear people do not know how something works now adays

Parsers are fine if you keep it to yourself and I don't have to hear about it. Nothing to be said, nothing to report. If you're running with your static and it's agreed upon there, again nothing to be said, nothing to report.

However, If Mr. Big Boy-DPS-Champlad-Diaper-Pants starts telling everyone in the party finder group how he's monitoring everyone's performance then it becomes an issue, especially when you don't need parsers to tell the weakest link in a group, and the content we have available doesn't require everyone be the biggus phallus dpsus. People that use parsers in content that it really doesn't matter really just look like fools to me.

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Originally Posted by Jennah

Parsers - unlike mods that change gear appearance or whatever - DON'T modify the game code; they just read the data being sent to the client and tabulate it.

Still technically a TOS violation, but as far as anyone can tell, nobody's been banned ONLY for parsing.

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It's not a technicality, it is a violation. Yoshida has personally said in live letters to not use them.

But it's unofficially in a grey area because SE know how useful they are as tools. So as long as you keep quiet about it they won't do anything. If they catch you using them to gatekeep or criticise people then the ban hammer comes out. As far as I'm aware the punishment for harassment is more robust if you do it with third party tools because that's considered two violations, not just one.

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Originally Posted by xxmiamorecadenza

I suppose you're right in that regard.

But, thankfully, parsers will remain steadfast in the raiding community as long as dps checks exist and the enjoyment of optimizing is present.

Which I'm very happy about.

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Same. I'm very much of the mind that if someone wants to use a parser for whatever reason that isn't negative, they should. My reason for posting here is just so that people, both supporters of parsers and non, understand the objective nature of the ToS regarding it. Even regarding the moral reason Yoshi-P and the team don't outright support parsers, I'm inclined to agree with them. The supporting evidence is this thread alone. We're seeing this back and forth argument here all the time, but we obviously don't see it too much in-game. The side of the game that people across the gaming community regard as the most friendly of players lol. Minimizing the unnecessarily competitive nature of people really does change the way people conduct themselves.

It's nice because it makes it easier to avoid people with certain.. undesirable attitudes. I'm generally supportive of parsing and stuff, but people who seem to attach their entire in game identity to competitive parsing tend to be pretty negative and volatile. Any time questions of arbitrary standards for self-worth become involved, stuff can get nasty.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

It's nice because it makes it easier to avoid people with certain.. undesirable attitudes. I'm generally supportive of parsing and stuff, but people who seem to attach their entire in game identity to competitive parsing tend to be pretty negative and volatile. Any time questions of arbitrary standards for self-worth become involved, stuff can get nasty.

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I'm actually the opposite. I'd much rather not play with people who complain about parsing, and I've seen those players tend to be the nastiest. The person who complains the loudest often ends up being the one who parses so low that FFLogs has to invent a new color for it.

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Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

I'm actually the opposite. I'd much rather not play with people who complain about parsing, and I've seen those players tend to be the nastiest. The person who complains the loudest often ends up being the one who parses so low that FFLogs has to invent a new color for it.

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Obviously there's nothing funner than sitting in a raid call with 7 sweaty dudes who's entire personalities revolves around saying the names of various twitch emotes outloud, while screaming down the mic about single dropped GCDs or bad mechanic RNG.

I've had my runs griefed enough times by someone mad their midares weren't critting.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

Obviously there's nothing funner than sitting in a raid call with 7 sweaty dudes who's entire personalities revolves around saying the names of various twitch emotes outloud, while screaming down the mic about single dropped GCDs or bad mechanic RNG.

I've had my runs griefed enough times by someone mad their midares weren't critting.

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You didn't have to call out my friend group like that, man.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

sitting in a raid call with 7 sweaty dudes

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This makes me want to start raiding.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

Actually the TOS prohibits software that modifies the games code, so it isn't "legit." They just choose not to enforce it...for now.

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For now? They haven’t for the past 8 years they aren’t gonna start now. They know they’d lose a hell ton of players if they got rid of parsers lmao. They know people parse and they’re fine with it. They just don’t want people being ducks about it.

When doing more damage takes precedence over learning your class, being skillful, and knowing what you bring to the table.

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Originally Posted by Lunalepsy

When doing more damage takes precedence over learning your class, being skillful, and knowing what you bring to the table.

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A large part of becoming better at this game is reaching the understanding that parses are an extremely flawed indicator of player value, and that even extremely inconsistent players can decorate their page with 99s if they're willing to grind hard enough for the one run that goes their way. It's unfortunate that the community has become so invested in this singular metric. I guess it's a matter of convenience really, since it doesn't take a nuanced understanding to associate big number = good.

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Originally Posted by Lunalepsy

When doing more damage takes precedence over learning your class, being skillful, and knowing what you bring to the table.

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I honestly can't tell what your message here means.

The jobs in this game, like the content of this game, are very rigid. There's not a lot of room to be unique or bring something else to the table. You do damage. The more damage you do, the more helpful you're being. It's why there's such a marked difference in say, survivability during big pulls when a healer is DPSing versus when a healer is not. Cure spammers think they're being a better healer and supporting their team when they're actually being a hindrance.

Combat just got even more uniform with almost everything being moved to 60/120s buff windows. That Summoner over there can't backup heal or do whatever unique things you think you can do from "learning your class" except for what is literally built into his rotation every two minutes.

Would you want to bring 4 reapers to a fight? Probably not, but if the math actually points to that being optimal and you can survive without utility then you can be certain it will be done. This is the way metas work in games.

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Originally Posted by FrogDog

I honestly can't tell what your message here means.

The jobs in this game, like the content of this game, are very rigid. There's not a lot of room to be unique or bring something else to the table. You do damage. The more damage you do, the more helpful you're being. It's why there's such a marked difference in say, survivability during big pulls when a healer is DPSing versus when a healer is not. Cure spammers think they're being a better healer and supporting their team when they're actually being a hindrance.

Combat just got even more uniform with almost everything being moved to 60/120s buff windows. That Summoner over there can't backup heal or do whatever unique things you think you can do from "learning your class" except for what is literally built into his rotation every two minutes.

Would you want to bring 4 reapers to a fight? Probably not, but if the math actually points to that being optimal and you can survive without utility then you can be certain it will be done. This is the way metas work in games.

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I think they were speaking more to people who are willing to slow prog to a crawl trying to optimize above their actual skill level. It's not a terribly uncommon problem, and there are players that parse lower that I'd take in a prog environment any day over some of the parse-fixated players I know.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

A large part of becoming better at this game is reaching the understanding that parses are an extremely flawed indicator of player value, and that even extremely inconsistent players can decorate their page with 99s if they're willing to grind hard enough for the one run that goes their way. It's unfortunate that the community has become so invested in this singular metric. I guess it's a matter of convenience really, since it doesn't take a nuanced understanding to associate big number = good.

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"A large part of becoming better at this game is reaching the understanding that parses are an extremely flawed indicator of player value". Said no serious raider, ever.

In the age of information the transparency a parser can tell you about yourself and the people you choose to play with is 100% needed in the community.

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Originally Posted by Velnora

"A large part of becoming better at this game is reaching the understanding that parses are an extremely flawed indicator of player value". Said no serious raider, ever.

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I just said it, feel free to quote me on it going forward.

I know plenty of players who've attained deceptively impressive peak performance across a tier who I'd never want near an early prog group. That doesn't mean everyone who cares a lot about parsing or has good parses is bad or something; I'm just making the point that it's just not an effective sole indicator of a players ability to reliably attain clears or prog quickly.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

A large part of becoming better at this game is reaching the understanding that parses are an extremely flawed indicator of player value, and that even extremely inconsistent players can decorate their page with 99s if they're willing to grind hard enough for the one run that goes their way. It's unfortunate that the community has become so invested in this singular metric. I guess it's a matter of convenience really, since it doesn't take a nuanced understanding to associate big number = good.

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To get a 99 they would still need a good understanding of their class and of the raid design. So i don’t really see what the issue is there?

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Originally Posted by Hammerhorn

In the age of information the transparency a parser can tell you about yourself and the people you choose to play with is 100% needed in the community.

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That is not the issue that is being discussed here, mate. People that advertise the use of parser in PF have a certain intent. Keep it to yourself mate and all is good.

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In the age of information the transparency a parser can tell you about yourself and the people you choose to play with is 100% needed in the community.

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There will be no official parser, i dont know how many times this needs to be stated.

As for attitude, i tend to find that anyone who sneeringly refers to others as "deadweights" is ample proof of why parsers should be completely banned. i dont mean allow them for personal use, i mean BANNED. Removed. Forbidden.

I dont see any reason why this kind of attitude, this kind of hostile, abusive conduct towards others should be condoned, encouraged or rewarded in any sense whatsoever.

I quit WOW for that very reason, and the abusive, manipulative and toxic atmospheres they created. Allow parsers in the game, and on the foilowing day you will have some wannabe spamming parser numbers in Sastasha. It wont happen?

Yes, it will. I gaurantee it.

Lastly, any so called 'raid leader" who cannot, or WILL NOT, get their point across without screaming obscenities at the top of their lungs needs to uninstall the game. walk away, and take a good long hard look at themselves.

If you lose your mind this badly over a game, if THIS is how you treat others, then the problem aint the game.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

To get a 99 they would still need a good understanding of their class and of the raid design. So i don’t really see what the issue is there?

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To get consistent 99's I would agree; however,

RNG is a lot more powerful in this game than people tend to realize, and it's pretty possible to fluke a 99 without really understanding how you attained it and be unable to repeat it regularly without grinding out a bunch of runs. And that doesn't just apply to crit/dh rng, but mechanical rng and class rng as well. There are also some people who simply struggle with consistency despite being able to occasionally hit it right and play extremely well on a good day.

There are also encounters in which you can artificially achieve a high ranking by manipulating certain aspects of the fight, like padding on adds or artificially extending / shortening kill times, allowing you to skew ahead despite playing otherwise imperfectly.

Look parser in a dungeon is not needed but if your gonna pull Savage at content or Ultimate,( unless they take away the Enrage mechanic )a parser is super helpful to knowing what member could be doing more damage so your team stops dying at 2%. Just broadly telling your team 500 pulls guys we need to get better but you have no idea who to help get better is stupid!

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Originally Posted by Velnora

"A large part of becoming better at this game is reaching the understanding that parses are an extremely flawed indicator of player value". Said no serious raider, ever.

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I mean it's true though, plenty of 99th percentile or even top 10 ranked rdps players who you'll never want to see in a week 1 savage/month 1 ultimate static.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

I just said it, feel free to quote me on it going forward.

I know plenty of players who've attained deceptively impressive peak performance across a tier who I'd never want near an early prog group. That doesn't mean everyone who cares a lot about parsing or has good parses is bad or something; I'm just making the point that it's just not an effective sole indicator of a players ability to reliably attain clears or prog quickly.

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100% agreed.

If you don't see how flawed percentiles are and how imperfect the correlation between rdps percentiles and progression skill is then I would not be hesitant to say that you might not actually be a serious raider.

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Look parser in a dungeon is not needed but if your gonna pull Savage at content or Ultimate,( unless they take away the Enrage mechanic )a parser is super helpful to knowing what member could be doing more damage so your team stops dying at 2%. Just broadly telling your team 500 pulls guys we need to get better but you have no idea who to help get better is stupid!

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Hammerhorn? Ill help you with that question.

There are ways and means to help others improve, there are ways to approach people, to communicate with a team to improve performance, to foster team spirit and encourage teamwork, to address and solve an issue WITHOUT resorting to publically humiliating someone.

Rule number one of real leadership:

Praise in public, CRITICISE IN PRIVATE.

Never, NEVER berate a team member in front of others, do that and you aint a leader, you're a boss and a bully, not to mention the fact that that kind of conduct not only undermines a teams morale, but also degrades the level of trust they have .

And also underpins the fact they will be very VERY reluctant to talk about anything else, since they have seen FIRST HAND that their so called "leader": is not only a hotheaded, abusive personality, but that said 'leader" cannot or will not treat others with respect.

Note that word "respect"

i once worked with a manager who didnt follow that rule and didnt care. The day I left ( I was a temp contractor fixing one of their company's stuffups ), I gave him a piece of advice I was sure went in one ear and out the other, but here it is anyway.

You can abuse and scream at and berate any staff member, and out of fear they will obey you, until they leave for better pastures or a better workplace. BUT, they will never..NEVER respect you. Respect is EARNED, not bestowed like a bag of lollies.

How does this segue into our discussion?

Simple.

Follow that principle, talk TO that person, talk TO that team, not AT them.

The results may very well surprise you.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

Cute switching out the letter P with B, but no.

Don't do it, you know it's not allowed. You want to run your Abacus with yourself of your group of friends together, go for it.

Don't ask, Don't tell is still very much in play, people can and will report you for it and if you get caught you're in trouble.

Run your calculator quietly, don't go shouting it out that you are going to check others with your math tools and decide if they can play with you.

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I have a better idea. Why not simply avoid their parties? What exactly are they hurting by being upfront with their intent? If anything, I welcome "barse parties" because it generally keeps people who will wipe pulls intentionally out of the general PF or whose interests are more in-line with their own personal performance than clearing. This is no different than someone advertising for a Miqo'te only party. Don't join if you aren't a Miqo'te. After all, it's their party and you aren't entitled to be apart of it if you aren't meeting the criteria.

They could always get more creative. I joined several "skip 2nd Merry-go-round" E4S parties way back when. Guess what? You aren't skipping that mechanic without exceptionally high DPS. It's essentially a parse party that will never get flagged by any GM. So...

You assume that I don’t do that already I’ve been running raid teams for over 20yrs , trust me when I say I value every team member I take the time to recruit.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

There will be no official parser, i dont know how many times this needs to be stated.

As for attitude, i tend to find that anyone who sneeringly refers to others as "deadweights" is ample proof of why parsers should be completely banned. i dont mean allow them for personal use, i mean BANNED. Removed. Forbidden.

I dont see any reason why this kind of attitude, this kind of hostile, abusive conduct towards others should be condoned, encouraged or rewarded in any sense whatsoever.

I quit WOW for that very reason, and the abusive, manipulative and toxic atmospheres they created. Allow parsers in the game, and on the foilowing day you will have some wannabe spamming parser numbers in Sastasha. It wont happen?

Yes, it will. I gaurantee it.

Lastly, any so called 'raid leader" who cannot, or WILL NOT, get their point across without screaming obscenities at the top of their lungs needs to uninstall the game. walk away, and take a good long hard look at themselves.

If you lose your mind this badly over a game, if THIS is how you treat others, then the problem aint the game.

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It has happened in Sastasha. I have seen it. All I can say is anyone I see abusing anyone else will be reported. If they use Damage meters/parsers to justify the abuse you can bet that will be included in the report.

I used a damage meter for years in WoW and honestly It caused me to stress out constantly and not enjoy the game. For that reason I will never run one again for any reason. If it means I can't do the higher content I really can't be bothered to care anymore.

This game is really most fun in the first few days, before we have parsers and rankings and such. When you don’t have to worry about some stupid number that dictates your worth and how you must play. If only parsers didnt exist and such days could last forever. But that is an impossible dream

Ive been invited to statics a few times. But thanks and no thanks, I got off that hamster wheel a loooong time ago.

if a game turns into a job, with performance indicators, parsers, "tests of competence" etc...that aint a game thats a JOB. Im retired. Did my bit for whatstheirfaces, not anymore. Looking at some of this, Im kinda thinking I made the right choice.

Now CRAFTER savage, THAT's fun. :cool::cool:

Ignore it ? Don't join ?
Some people want to parse, that's their business to do.
Unless they're going around harassing you, then honestly what even is this thread.

If you're so bothered by other people parsing and agree to the parsing before joining said group, then I think that's says more about you than it does about them.

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Originally Posted by VirusOnline

If you're so bothered by other people parsing and agree to the parsing before joining said group, then I think that's says more about you than it does about them.

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Keep parsing to yourself and all is good. Not talking about it in-game keeps the toxicity at check.

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Originally Posted by lisaa

This game is really most fun in the first few days, before we have parsers and rankings and such. When you don’t have to worry about some stupid number that dictates your worth and how you must play. If only parsers didnt exist and such days could last forever. But that is an impossible dream

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How does some random guy who you will never see considering you probably dont even do EX trials using something you dont like using immediately ruin your experience like that

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Originally Posted by Xrystofer

Keep parsing to yourself and all is good. Not talking about it in-game keeps the toxicity at check.

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Essentially this; I have no issue with parsers unto themselves as I've enjoyed using them to help improve my own performance in the past, but the moment it becomes open/general discussion, it opens up the door to chaos.

Totally fine with it if folks keep it to themselves and/or their regular play groups (statics, friends, etc.).

I feel the same, having a set time to raid, having to parse a certain way, etc is way too job like for me. Not to mention a lot of people treat it like a job interview

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I feel the same, having a set time to raid, having to parse a certain way, etc is way too job like for me. Not to mention a lot of people treat it like a job interview

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Yup.

Been there, done that, got the t shirt and coffee mug, aint doing it any more. I can log off and do whatever I want, which these days is kicking back with a good book and a mug of coffee and donuts. no set times...and no "job interviews" I do what I want, when i want, or not as it suits me.

As it should be.

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Originally Posted by Xrystofer

Keep parsing to yourself and all is good. Not talking about it in-game keeps the toxicity at check.

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Except they are. Nobody is forcing you to join a parse party. Would you feel better if they simply advertised as "optimization party" "skipping x mechanic" or "high DPS required"? All denote the use of a parser but are simply skirting around with different thermology.

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Originally Posted by Alxyzntlct

Essentially this; I have no issue with parsers unto themselves as I've enjoyed using them to help improve my own performance in the past, but the moment it becomes open/general discussion, it opens up the door to chaos.

Totally fine with it if folks keep it to themselves and/or their regular play groups (statics, friends, etc.).

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This is highly debatable. Parsers themselves don't create toxicity but rather allowing toxic players to remain unchecked does. I know everyone fancies pointing to WoW has the source of all things evil but a significant factor that contributes to their toxicity is a lack of proper moderation. Say FFXIV openly allowed parsers but all the current ToS rules not only applied but were readily enforced. Players saying nonsense like "pls uninstall SMN. ur trash" wouldn't last a day. Meanwhile, someone saying, "Hey, SMN. Your damage is a little low. We're gonna have to rep you" isn't toxic and should never be viewed as such.

What always bothers me is there are many people who don't even realize how much they're underperforming yet genuinely want to improve. I've had players legitimately stunned to discover how low their damage actually was and grateful to be directed to resources that will help them improve, including a parser. Sadly, nobody is going to risk saying anything in-game nowadays when it only takes one anti-parser reporting them to potentially get a strike on their account.

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What always bothers me is there are many people who don't even realize how much they're underperforming yet genuinely want to improve. I've had players legitimately stunned to discover how low their damage actually was and grateful to be directed to resources that will help them improve, including a parser. Sadly, nobody is going to risk saying anything in-game nowadays when it only takes one anti-parser reporting them to potentially get a strike on their account.

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No one is an "anti parser". Not me, anyway. I dont care if you are running one. It doesnt worry me in the slightest. More power to you.

BUT.

With one caveat, that I think we all agree on.

KEEP IT TO YOURSELF.

There are other ways to help people improve WITHOUT bringing parse numbers into the mix. When i was levelling my DNC, i ran an instance, and we stopped for a few moments whilst the tank very kindly told me to look at my AOE tooltips again whilst we waited, as my comments to him indicated I didnt understand them properly.

So I did. Cue ABSOLUTE embarrassment.

He laughed, pulled another pack, this time I did it properly and he just said 'THATS MUCH BETTER, Dancer. Lets GO"

It is never what you want to say, its how you say it.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

With one caveat, that I think we all agree on.

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I don't agree on that. If players want to actively use a parser and advertise their group as such then it's on anyone who wants to deal with that to join. I don't use a parser but I used to use damage meters ages ago when I played WoW. People don't always know how to look at that data but that's not really my or anyone else's problem. There will be bad experiences.

Also an anecdote for your anecdote, for every you out there who will take advice, there are many many more who simply will ignore the chat and continue doing what they were doing before. Then there are plenty of others who will argue or tell you that you have no right to give them suggestions, even though they're playing team content. It's basically even against the rules now to point out to somebody that they're doing something wrong or badly, if they're especially prickly they could report you for it. This is why I almost never even bother talking to people in dungeons now even if I see them struggling.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

No one is an "anti parser". Not me, anyway. I dont care if you are running one. It doesnt worry me in the slightest. More power to you.

BUT.

With one caveat, that I think we all agree on.

KEEP IT TO YOURSELF.

There are other ways to help people improve WITHOUT bringing parse numbers into the mix. When i was levelling my DNC, i ran an instance, and we stopped for a few moments whilst the tank very kindly told me to look at my AOE tooltips again whilst we waited, as my comments to him indicated I didnt understand them properly.

So I did. Cue ABSOLUTE embarrassment.

He laughed, pulled another pack, this time I did it properly and he just said 'THATS MUCH BETTER, Dancer. Lets GO"

It is never what you want to say, its how you say it.

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^^^^^

I actually use tool that will not be named myself to tidy up my rotation, increase efficency and boost uptime by checking for indications where I may be slacking off, so I know where to tidy up.

I could absolutely use the tool for bad, the temptation is there every time you pull up the numbers, but I, like others don't want the tool to devolve into a gate keeping device like it has in so many other MMOs, so only my own numbers and data matter and the rest gets binned.

The problem is we clearly have people testing little by little what they can get away with and that's a road that leads to SE taking our snazzy calculator away entirely, leaving us to only be able to do it the old fashioned way.

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but I used to use damage meters ages ago when I played WoW.

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Then you are painfully aware of how that tool is abused and misused. Widely. i mentioned Sastashas, the equivalent is Ragefire Chasm. I lost cont of the number of times some bozo dropped dps meters in there.

The word PATHETIC comes to mind.