Healer design is still terrible and I'm tired of apologizing for it.

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Originally Posted by NobleWinter

Once upon a time Scholar had a fairy named Selene that had less healing output than Eos and a tiny raidwide haste buff in exchange. It was literally less healing for instances where you didn't need it. It was amazing, and now it's gone forever. It would definitely be possible for every healer to have tradeoffs built into their kit that prioritized either dps or healing. Cleric Stance was the first attempt at this but it was very punishing for people who couldn't toggle the buff well unfortunately. Still I would very much welcome a return to having options. Astro could get Nocturnal Sect back as a damage phase, Scholar Selene, WHM could use the Iconic Faith buff and Sage could have an Autopsy Mode that focused on dps. The entire healer role is terribly uninspired right now and anything to make each healer more distinct instead of mirroring almost every ability from one another would be welcome.

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The best part of Selene for me anyway was the AoE Esuna she had, that was incredibly helpful on Ozma when people started getting bleeding stacks.

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Originally Posted by Jybril

I think they need to look into SCH and I feel it needs a revamp.
SGE just feels superior in every way and feels much more smooth to play in comparsion to it's barrier brother.
SCH feels terrible as a barrier healer, and I've only really noticed it when SGE came out now.

Deploying barriers is really fun and fast with SGE. To set up barrier, it takes 1 sec of Eureksian and then boom, barrier.
It takes me almost 2 seconds to set up a barrier as SCH and it all feels super clunky to play.
Adblo + Deploy takes forever to set up, which is another almost 2 seconds. I'm probably just a bad player
and haven't touched SCH that much in over 2 expansions but it feels extremely slow in comparison.

I always had a problem setting up barriers in time because I can't cast fast enough before the enemy drops the AoE...
Their cast time is faster than my set up I feel but you have SGE that has something like Kercachole, Pana and even Holos
that's instant and then the 1 second Progonsis (Maybe like 1.2 seconds since it's not really instant) it's still faster than SCH.

So yeah, please take a look at SCH. It needs help and it should have more emphasis on faeries too.

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SCH does feel slower but it's tools are insane to make reliable big shields.

I do believe Aetherflow in combination with the Fairy Gauge is an incredibly clunky system and the fact that we need a dump skill (ED) just so that the Job works correctly is... extremely underwhelming to say the least. I'd definitely overhaul that to be something better. Wouldn't be a fan if they made it a 1:1 copy of addersgall but i wouldn't be opposed of it either. And I'd prefer if the fey gauge built up with every embrace cast by the fairy instead of forcing us to spam Aetherflow abilities and causing ED to exist. It'd help feel like the fairy and player work together and help the job identity too.

I also believe that summoning the Faerie should go already. It's really dumb that a SCH gets punished harder for dying than SGE because they have to waste 1 GCD upon revival in order to resummon the fairy (which even costs 200mp). Just make it appear automatically and give us proper Fairy Glam already. A button that dictates who the fairy is supposed to focus on would also be welcome.

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

SCH does feel slower but it's tools are insane to make reliable big shields.

I do believe Aetherflow in combination with the Fairy Gauge is an incredibly clunky system and the fact that we need a dump skill (ED) just so that the Job works correctly is... extremely underwhelming to say the least. I'd definitely overhaul that to be something better. Wouldn't be a fan if they made it a 1:1 copy of addersgall but i wouldn't be opposed of it either. And I'd prefer if the fey gauge built up with every embrace cast by the fairy instead of forcing us to spam Aetherflow abilities and causing ED to exist. It'd help feel like the fairy and player work together and help the job identity too.

I also believe that summoning the Faerie should go already. It's really dumb that a SCH gets punished harder for dying than SGE because they have to waste 1 GCD upon revival in order to resummon the fairy (which even costs 200mp). Just make it appear automatically and give us proper Fairy Glam already. A button that dictates who the fairy is supposed to focus on would also be welcome.

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The Faerie gauge also needs something else on it, having the gauge interact with only one ability feels just a little wasteful to me, and most of the time you're just sitting on a full gauge anyway.

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

I also believe that summoning the Faerie should go already. It's really dumb that a SCH gets punished harder for dying than SGE because they have to waste 1 GCD upon revival in order to resummon the fairy (which even costs 200mp). Just make it appear automatically and give us proper Fairy Glam already. A button that dictates who the fairy is supposed to focus on would also be welcome.

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At the very least, that fairy is not affected by weakness/brink of death as opposed to SGE. All of fairy heals: Embrace, Whispering Dawn, Blessing, Seraph, and Union all heals at its normal value. So it evens out. This is unique to SCH alone.

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

I do believe Aetherflow in combination with the Fairy Gauge is an incredibly clunky system and the fact that we need a dump skill (ED) just so that the Job works correctly is... extremely underwhelming to say the least.

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Agreed, Aetherflow is antiquated and needs to be scrapped. I already see some comments on SGE needing a dump skill as well. As long as ED exists, it will always be the most optimal use of your stacks. In fact, in an optimal setting, you'd 90% of the time use ED because Recitation exists and since there's already a lack of outgoing damage, the heals are typically not needed in conjunction with your co-healer. But removing ED only exacerbates the issue that not using your Aetherflow stacks before the CD comes up only hinders your MP recovery and therefore wasting your stacks on overheal—hence why ED is remains to be here for that reason alone.

Personally, I think SCH could just use normal CDs on the fairy skills and have a "Rouse" like button that absorbs some of the Fae Gauge (giving the gauge some actual use) to buff the fairy abilities for a duration, whether that's the fairy's Embrace or a buffed Whispering Dawn or adding a small shield on Fey Blessing.

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Originally Posted by elioaiko

Agreed, Aetherflow is antiquated and needs to be scrapped. I already see some comments on SGE needing a dump skill as well. As long as ED exists, it will always be the most optimal use of your stacks. In fact, in an optimal setting, you'd 90% of the time use ED because Recitation exists and since there's already a lack of outgoing damage, the heals are typically not needed in conjunction with your co-healer. But removing ED only exacerbates the issue that not using your Aetherflow stacks before the CD comes up only hinders your MP recovery and therefore wasting your stacks on overheal—hence why ED is remains to be here for that reason alone.

Personally, I think SCH could just use normal CDs on the fairy skills and have a "Rouse" like button that absorbs some of the Fae Gauge (giving the gauge some actual use) to buff the fairy abilities for a duration, whether that's the fairy's Embrace or a buffed Whispering Dawn or adding a small shield on Fey Blessing.

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There is a way to make ED act as a AF dump and not turn it into the only optimal use for AF stacks: Simply remove the damage it deals and have it grant MP (And grant Fae Gauge ofc). You get a universal resource that is always useful and have a way to clear stacks when AF comes off CD.

Ofc that'd make SCH's dps rotation even more barebones, but that's another issue.

Expansion after expansion, I'm so disappointed by the healer role because it took a step in an interesting direction back in ARR and Heavensward. Then it started twitching and jerkily swinging its foot in random directions, and a lot of us here on the forums got overly excited when it looked like it might land forward, only to continue twitching. Okay, I'm going to abandon this metaphor, because it's getting goofy.

FFXIV made a design decision a long time ago that's had knock-on effects for years. Most damage is avoidable. It's arguably a fantastic decision: it provides an intuitive reward system. It makes players of all roles feel skilled for executing successfully. It punishes you for failure, but not often in a way that makes you feel like your gameplay was jank. There's a lot of good to be had from a system that rewards you for dodging mechanics correctly. The one teeeeeeeensy problem with this...is that if you're dodging damage, you're not taking nearly as much damage. If you're not taking damage, you don't need to be healed. Now, you could increase the amount of unavoidable damage to compensate, but you can only go so far with that. You wouldn't want to entirely cheapen the system you've created where dodging is rewarding, and you don't want to throw out so much unavoidable damage that adding it to the avoidable damage means you need to play perfectly in most content or die to the combined incoming attacks.

Okay, so, as a consequence of the way you've decided to implement this system, healing is less important than it would be in say an attrition healing game, where the healer's job is to counter constant incoming waves of damage. That's not impossible to handle. Nearly all single-player RPGs operate this way after all; when's the last time you've played a single-player RPG where you were constantly spamming heals on your designated health battery? Maybe every other turn in a rough fight, but most of the time you probably relegate that character to a buffer or maybe a holy damage blaster when there's nothing to heal right?

So you look at Square Enix with the anticipation you have for someone who aaaaaaaalmost gets something you're trying to explain to them. Yes, yes, good. You understand the consequences of the design decision you made. You might get that healing is not -worthless-, but definitely less important because of this decision, yes? Good, good, and there are many games who have mitigated this consequence with some concoction of buffs, debuffs, damage, whatever fills time between heals, so this shouldn't be too much of a problem. You've removed a lot of the need to cast healing spells in most content. And you've replaced this time that you refunded with..........

Oh.

Oh no.

I just find it kind of interesting that more and more groups of friends, when they have 4 people to do a dungeon together, aren't even taking a healer anymore.

I suppose it's a lucky thing that the DF guarantees a spot for one.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

I just find it kind of interesting that more and more groups of friends, when they have 4 people to do a dungeon together, aren't even taking a healer anymore.

I suppose it's a lucky thing that the DF guarantees a spot for one.

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Even the current EW savage fights, can easily be done with only one Healer required, since Tanks are almost better at Healing themselves than most Healers could anyway, so i hope this Hole continues to grow so that finally something can be done about it.

The only shame is, that it took a whole 3 Expansions to get to this Point, and i hope it gets adressed properly.

The extemes have already been done without healers, and the normal raids arent even out yet

[spoilers in link, obviously] https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1qL4y1J7Mh

if the issue wont be address in 2 days ,it will be a huge disappointment to say the least.
if tanks will be capable of keeping a group alive in dungeons(casual/daily content) without the need of a healer, we basically being 1 step away from the role heading to oblivion.

I honestly don't know what people expect from 6.01 in terms of balancing. Nerf tank sustain? Buff Healer DPS? Adjust balance between the healers. The fundamental issues aren't really addressable with a small potency patch or a small "bringing a just deleted ability back" like with ED back in 5.01. 6.0 was the time for big overhauls like that but we didn't really get anything and honestly prior to 6.1 i wouldn't expect anything at all, not even an acknowledgement of the issue.

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

I honestly don't know what people expect from 6.01 in terms of balancing. Nerf tank sustain? Buff Healer DPS? Adjust balance between the healers. The fundamental issues aren't really addressable with a small potency patch or a small "bringing a just deleted ability back" like with ED back in 5.01. 6.0 was the time for big overhauls like that but we didn't really get anything and honestly prior to 6.1 i wouldn't expect anything at all, not even an acknowledgement of the issue.

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My hope is they make at least big strides in 6.1. Tank sustain could definitely be reeled in, maybe by having their new toys cost resources, and by maybe reworking sage a bit to have it's supposed 'Healer with dps options' fleshed out more. I don't believe these things would be terribly difficult to add in.

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

I honestly don't know what people expect from 6.01 in terms of balancing. Nerf tank sustain? Buff Healer DPS? Adjust balance between the healers. The fundamental issues aren't really addressable with a small potency patch or a small "bringing a just deleted ability back" like with ED back in 5.01. 6.0 was the time for big overhauls like that but we didn't really get anything and honestly prior to 6.1 i wouldn't expect anything at all, not even an acknowledgement of the issue.

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I had kind of the same thoughts. Too many of the issues run deep...

Add to that, SE is very very nerf shy outside of rework/expac-level stuff. They won't nerf anything unless they feel there's absolutely no choice and even then, generally only to the minimum they can. So like... if tank sustain is getting nerfed at all, it's going to be tiny (and I doubt it'll happen at all). It's certainly not going to disappear.

6.1 seems kind of optimistic though. More like until 7.0...?

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

I honestly don't know what people expect from 6.01 in terms of balancing. Nerf tank sustain? Buff Healer DPS? Adjust balance between the healers. The fundamental issues aren't really addressable with a small potency patch or a small "bringing a just deleted ability back" like with ED back in 5.01. 6.0 was the time for big overhauls like that but we didn't really get anything and honestly prior to 6.1 i wouldn't expect anything at all, not even an acknowledgement of the issue.

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They already did nerf self sustain hard in Shadowbringers only to bring it back in Endwalker for some puzzling reason.

Nerfing tank sustain will do almost nothing. Tanks having some heals aren't why healers are designed terribly, nor will bosses suddenly start spamming raidwides and dishing out real damage if we take Nascent Flash and Holy Sheltron away. If anything SE would panic and start making bosses even weaker or buff our heals more to compensate.

There are fundamental issues with healer design that has nothing to do with tanks. We're getting distracted by minor things on the side.

Hate to say it, but healer design was best in 2.55. Can bring back a more nuanced cleric stance with an actual dps rotation. SCH especially was an insane amount of fun back then.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Nerfing tank sustain will do almost nothing. Tanks having some heals aren't why healers are designed terribly, nor will bosses suddenly start spamming raidwides and dishing out real damage if we take Nascent Flash and Holy Sheltron away. If anything SE would panic and start making bosses even weaker or buff our heals more to compensate.

There are fundamental issues with healer design that has nothing to do with tanks. We're getting distracted by minor things on the side.

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While it's not the only issue, sure, I think you underestimate just how strong tank sustain is right now. ex trials can be done without healers, dungeons are being done without healers - and we're still stuck with the tier's crappy gear. When the high end gear comes out, all that tank self healing will just be stronger. FF logs encourages standard comps to an extent, but that only applies so much pressure.

There's already solo tank, solo heal groups in PF (more casually accessible than dropping healers entirely). You get to see less mechanics - so faster and more consistent kills.

I think it may take a bit of time to really get going - for inertia to overtake the 2/2/4 comp that everyone has become so used to - but I think we're going to see a healer slot get dropped a lot more, except where absolutely required by mechanics (eg party split stacks on healers).

Now, is this the only factor? No, of course not. But it's a big one. Yes, there are longer term and more foundational healer issues, but if you want to get healer slots out of the PF in the short run, this seems to be the recipe to do it.

The problem with 14 healers is that incoming damage is scripted and too infrequent so all you have to do is know when the damage is coming and handle it. Also healers have way too many ogcd massive heals. So what you’re left with is a bad dps job with a 1 or two button rotation which occasionally heals. The only time healers are remotely taxed and are required to use their full kit is ultimate.

And they wonder why there’s a healer shortage.

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Originally Posted by QooEr

The extemes have already been done without healers, and the normal raids arent even out yet

[spoilers in link, obviously] https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1qL4y1J7Mh

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This is ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS!!! Yoshi needs to give the game in the hands of someone competent!

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Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner

if the issue wont be address in 2 days ,it will be a huge disappointment to say the least.
if tanks will be capable of keeping a group alive in dungeons(casual/daily content) without the need of a healer, we basically being 1 step away from the role heading to oblivion.

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It´s already a thing and have even been one in Shb, when the tank knew what to do...

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

While it's not the only issue, sure, I think you underestimate just how strong tank sustain is right now. ex trials can be done without healers, dungeons are being done without healers

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EX Trials can be done without healers because the first EX has a pathetic 5 total cases of unavoidable raid damage. The 1HP at the start, a stack, a bleed, 2 more stacks ...and there's another bleed but the boss doesn't even live that long. That's it.
Dungeons could be done without healers in the past too because they're also a joke. I used to do Expert in ShB with a tank and 3 dps. Several Experts were fully soloed by tanks too even while current content.

Tank sustain at 95th percentile ranges from 500-1500hps. Which sounds like a lot (and is quite decent) but in reality an amazing WAR fully utilizing their sustain barely does half of a 10th percentile healer who is barely even uses their toolkit. Not to mention GNB's or DRK's who are much less.

The reason healers have nothing to heal is because there's nothing to heal. Enemies just aren't dealing damage unless the party makes constant mistakes. If a healer was dropped in EX, it's not because the tank stole their job. It's because they have no job to do, so the measly 1k hps on the side can easily fill in for them.

Also for that EX solo, all 6 dps have raid heals.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

EX Trials can be done without healers because the first EX has a pathetic 5 total cases of unavoidable raid damage. The 1HP at the start, a stack, a bleed, 2 more stacks ...and there's another bleed but the boss doesn't even live that long. That's it.
Dungeons could be done without healers in the past too because they're also a joke. I used to do Expert in ShB with a tank and 3 dps. Several Experts were fully soloed by tanks too even while current content.

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That's depressing.

I've always been in favor of a huge item level nerf across the board, but if we continue to get fights like this, the nerf won't matter. We still need more mechanics that force healers to heal.

Kind of scared to post, but I've been having a lot of fun on healer..

1.5s cast really makes all the healers feel more active and fun and all the level 90 skills feel really unique and powerful in their own way.

I can see how WAR can make healer feel useless, but I think that is more WAR problem than healers? When I played with DRK there is plenty to heal ^^

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

-snip-

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Edit: So I thought of a better way to explain this so here's a post overhaul

I think what's missing here is how easily war+pld especially can trivialize tankbusters.
Your FF logs comparison is utterly flawed because, much like healer that goes "Look how much the parser says I'm healing!" after their cohealer complains - aoes and espescialy aoe regens pad that number a lot. Secondly, when the healing happens matters a lot.

Now, you say your concern is with incoming damage being low. I 100% agree, but we've been asking for more damage for half a decade now and, well. This is what we have.

But lots of self healing makes the effective incoming damage even lower. So we got, effectively, the opposite of our requests.

People solo healed trials and even savages before, and did healerless dungeons before - but Endwalker marks the start of an era where it's easier than ever before. Maybe SE will force dual healers with split-stack mechanics or other things that require 2 healers to resolve - but for those of us that feel too much time is spent pressing 1 and too little healing, this is a pretty marked step in a worse direction.

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Lastly, since people mostly focus on WAR, I want to say it's really not a WAR-specific problem. Their self heal is powerful in dungeons, but similar to the others' in raids/trials. Take a look at the new heals PLD and GNB have and you'll maybe understand a bit better where these concerns come from.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

There are fundamental issues with healer design that has nothing to do with tanks. We're getting distracted by minor things on the side.

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What fundamental issues?

im honestly all for ppl dropping healer slots /solo healing until it reaches critical mass and they finally notice that nobody wants to play pretend healer.

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Originally Posted by lisaa

Kind of scared to post, but I've been having a lot of fun on healer..

1.5s cast really makes all the healers feel more active and fun and all the level 90 skills feel really unique and powerful in their own way.

I can see how WAR can make healer feel useless, but I think that is more WAR problem than healers? When I played with DRK there is plenty to heal ^^

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On a lighter note, I agree the 1.5s casts feel great. Finally we can weave as needed.

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Originally Posted by QooEr

im honestly all for ppl dropping healer slots /solo healing until it reaches critical mass and they finally notice that nobody wants to play pretend healer.

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This, I am all completely for this. It is the ONLY way they won't be able to refute it; absolute hard cold data even they cannot ignore or handwave.

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

I honestly don't know what people expect from 6.01 in terms of balancing.

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Turns out 6.01 changed nothing.

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

Turns out 6.01 changed nothing.

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The x.01 hardly change much. Here are all the other x.01 stuff https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...6e275711ca88e8
https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...691b3fadfb35e5
https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...38bbb9e85e63e7

For the most part, it's always just small incremental changes, nothing too drastic really. It's not until the x.05 that there are some really major changes followed up by x.07 or x.08.

This is why I play healer on WoW and ditched healing on 14. At least in WoW you have constant incoming damage to handle, there isn’t a load of OP ogcd heals to fall back on and there is actually a challenge in balancing DPSing and healing, and you get to interrupt and provide meaningful utility, plus it’s actually a challenge to play healer.

Unless they change encounter design significantly (which will likely never happen) healing will never change.

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Originally Posted by Thoosa

Unless they change encounter design significantly (which will likely never happen) healing will never change.

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I wish they would. It would allow for cc to actually be viable and other option. Oh well one game can’t be perfect and have everything.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Maybe SE will force dual healers with split-stack mechanics or other things that require 2 healers to resolve - but for those of us that feel too much time is spent pressing 1 and too little healing, this is a pretty marked step in a worse direction.

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That is precisely what they'll do, and have been doing throughout Shadowbringers. You absolutely didn't need two healers in E9 or E10. Even E11 would be manageable but a lot more risky early on with cycles. Promise and Oracle may have pushed it but could be solo healed with a skilled player. Instead of making both healers required, each fight had at least one mechanic that ensures deaths if you dropped a trinity role. Anti-Air/Wide Valley could, in theory, be two stacked but ran into issues. Orbs could get incredibly finnicky without two healers while Fire cycle was impossible not to kill two DPS.

Unfortunately, this seems to be the direction the dev team is going. They've essentially thrown up their hands and said: "You're taking two healers or we'll make mechanics incredibly annoying if you don't." Now the one "saving grace" that may open their eyes to how poorly this approach is would be Endwalker being exceptionally easy due to the sheer amount of tools tanks were given on top of healers already having far too many oGCDs. If damage scaling remains relatively similar to Shadowbringers, Savage is going to be laughable in terms of outgoing damage. We'll know in two weeks but I will say, the first EX is arguably the easiest we've ever had. I'd struggle to even label it as such. He just... falls over once you realize his gimmick.

On the other hand, if this results in more Savage participation. They may actually be happy... It's more than a little concerning to say the least...

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Originally Posted by Thoosa

This is why I play healer on WoW and ditched healing on 14. At least in WoW you have constant incoming damage to handle, there isn’t a load of OP ogcd heals to fall back on and there is actually a challenge in balancing DPSing and healing, and you get to interrupt and provide meaningful utility, plus it’s actually a challenge to play healer.

Unless they change encounter design significantly (which will likely never happen) healing will never change.

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Well said and this mirrors my thoughts.

For how much we meme on WoW these days, their encounter and healer/tank design is top notch and SE would do well to emulate it.

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Originally Posted by QooEr

The extemes have already been done without healers, and the normal raids arent even out yet

[spoilers in link, obviously] https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1qL4y1J7Mh

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This is absolutely ******* stupid. I hope this gets plastered all over reddit and on the rest of the forums.

If this doesn't show why the design of the healer role is an absolute joke, I don't know what does.

LOL ^ 75% of people still cant do snakes tho so its cool.

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Originally Posted by AC9Breaker

LOL ^ 75% of people still cant do snakes tho so its cool.

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And yet they can still clear the fight. Just goes to show how negligible the damage actually is.

or maybe that its launch Ex trials which are generally easier and people get carried all the time.

Everyone who says they never need to heal, I wish I got into your runs. I always feel like I'm being run ragged having to spam heal people just to keep them alive, even just getting through the dungeons in EW.

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Originally Posted by sirflimflam

Everyone who says they never need to heal, I wish I got into your runs. I always feel like I'm being run ragged having to spam heal people just to keep them alive, even just getting through the dungeons in EW.

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There must be something really wrong with the people you're queueing with. Even trusts do better at mob pulls in pulling, and in double pulls the tank will at least pop a defensive so you still never need to spam GCD heals as long as you can rotate your healing abilities.