MONK is to confusing / annoying of a class now

Aside from PB imo being too long of a CD I overall like the changes. I do miss all the positional's though.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

We'd never had reason to use it pre-pull between HW and Shadowbringers, since we already had Form Shift after 52. Now, however, we do, as it'd be a way to make up for PB's 40s CD compared against RoF's 60.

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We're still using Form Shift pre-pull, and starting PB cycling a couple GCDs in.

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Originally Posted by SnowVix

We're still using Form Shift pre-pull, and starting PB cycling a couple GCDs in.

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I never said otherwise. I've not even vaguely implied otherwise.

RoF is on a 60s CD.
Into each RoF (or at least as many as you can for the given fight length) you'd like to fit 2 Blitzes, which each require a PB.
PB is on a 40s CD, meaning that such requires 80s of time.

PB lasts 20 seconds. By opening with PB, if one were allowed to, you could DK-Twin-RoF-Demo-Solar and, in shorter fights, you wouldn't have to hold your next RoF to get 2 PBs within it. That's what they're referring to.

No, I don't think such a change needs to occur, but the desync between PB's timer and RoF's is why they're mentioning it.

How has it become confusing ?
If you're familiar with the basics of MNK then grasping the Blitz system isn't too hard to grasp.

Now, I do like the Blitz system, but if I had a gripe it's that I think PB should have an extra charge or a lower CD. If it came at the cost of slightly lower potency, then so be it. Having to wait for the Lunar + Solar -> Phantom becomes a bit anti-climatic.
It's going in a good direction, but the flow could be so much better with a third charge imo.

Edit: Also, yeah, the culling of positionals was especially surprising. They removed too many positionals for my taste.

3rd charge of PB would 100% be a big mistake. People are complaining about there not being enough to do between Blitzes right now. If PB had 3 charges, you would use all 3 charges in the opener and then wait 2 full minutes to regenerate all 3 charges so you could blow them all at once again during raid buffs. Keeping it at 2 charges ensures you Blitz at least once a minute. At best I think maybe they could reduce the cooldown of PB to 30 seconds, but this would greatly increase the total damage you get from Blitzes, so they would need to be weakened as a result, or Monk's damage would have to be nerfed in other places.

As for positionals I think they are fine as they are now, and I was someone who was a supporter of Monk's positionals for years. Blitz is difficult enough without having positionals on top of it, although I could see the potential for a design where positionals are returned but PB lets you ignore them. Even so, I was always frustrated by the Bootshine positional because of how much damage the crit represented, it was extremely punishing to miss. If they were gonna bring back any positionals it should be on Twin Snakes and True Strike only imo, but I don't think they will just because they never make jobs more difficult on purpose even if people ask.

Rather than positionals or more blitzes I would rather if they added something else. Some new cooldown (or two) that doesn't always line up with burst so there's a bit more to do between Blitzes. But there would be the matter of how to make it interesting, and I think such a thing should only come alongside an increase to the chakra cap because even as Monk is now, you miss out on so many chakra because you can't spare the weave window to spend them.

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Originally Posted by PangTong

At best I think maybe they could reduce the cooldown of PB to 30 seconds,

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PB shouldn´t come with a 30s window. You would always spam 2 PB´s every 60s in a 20s window, but still sit on a 40s "nothing to do" rotation. So it would change nothing but spamming PB more often, which is pretty boring tbh. To have only 3 PB skills with 4 PB´s doesn´t make sense either.
I understand that some want it to line up the rotation, but it wouldn´t fit the current design and would kill the 2nd opener choice.

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Originally Posted by PangTong

As for positionals I think they are fine as they are now, and I was someone who was a supporter of Monk's positionals for years. Blitz is difficult enough without having positionals on top of it, although I could see the potential for a design where positionals are returned but PB lets you ignore them.

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I don´t get how ppl can call "Blitz is difficult enough.". It´s the same thing you do again and again and even did before with PB. You either go for DK / BS / DK or you go for DK / TS / Demo. All you can do is to adjust with the Solarnadi to get some more seconds out of Demo, but that´s just a minor DPS gain.

Blitz does nothing but add burst buttons at the end of the same combo we´ve ever played before. They can leave it like it is, but they HAVE TO BRING BACK ALL POSITIONALS!

Personally I think Perfect Balance IS the problem, by gating the entire Blitz system behind its CD.

You should be able to get beast chakra on your normal rotation instead of being forced to do a bare bones rotation each time Perfect Balance is on CD

I cant believe how much fun the DRG is now compared to MNK

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

Personally I think Perfect Balance IS the problem, by gating the entire Blitz system behind its CD.

You should be able to get beast chakra on your normal rotation instead of being forced to do a bare bones rotation each time Perfect Balance is on CD

I cant believe how much fun the DRG is now compared to MNK

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New NIN is pretty nice, too. It does still have a fair amount of 1-2-3 downtime though. Working on leveling DRG now.

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Originally Posted by meowmaou

New NIN is pretty nice, too. It does still have a fair amount of 1-2-3 downtime though. Working on leveling DRG now.

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It's 3/4s '1-2-3 downtime', or 2/3s if you count the two Armor Crushes per minute (which should ofc be down outside of TA) as some significant variation.

I really wish they had taken the Raijuu aspect further (among other Ninjutsu), but without a bit more bankability.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

I don´t get how ppl can call "Blitz is difficult enough.". It´s the same thing you do again and again and even did before with PB. You either go for DK / BS / DK or you go for DK / TS / Demo. All you can do is to adjust with the Solarnadi to get some more seconds out of Demo, but that´s just a minor DPS gain.

Blitz does nothing but add burst buttons at the end of the same combo we´ve ever played before. They can leave it like it is, but they HAVE TO BRING BACK ALL POSITIONALS!

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Executing the Blitz isn't difficult by itself. The challenge is fitting it in under buffs, while also not dropping Disciplined Fists or Demolish, getting optimal damage from PB, and then resuming your rotation at the correct point. If your rotation is delayed by even a GCD or two it will change what you have to do when you Blitz, or when you use it. On paper Blitz seems simple, but in practice executing it perfectly requires you to be aware of a lot of things and be able to quickly adjust on the fly.

I'm fine with keeping Blitz at 40s, the fact that Phantom Rush doesn't line up with Brotherhood doesn't bother me like it does for some. If they were to bring back positionals (which I don't think they'll do) I'd prefer it if PB nullified them, and either they should leave the positional requirement off Bootshine or change the bonus to something besides a guaranteed crit. Positionals were necessary complexity when they were the only thing Monk had, but now I feel like there are better ways to make the job more interesting. I'd say that the job is already pretty complex though compared to most DPS, so anything they add would have to be pretty mild.

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Originally Posted by PangTong

I'm fine with keeping Blitz at 40s, the fact that Phantom Rush doesn't line up with Brotherhood doesn't bother me like it does for some. If they were to bring back positionals (which I don't think they'll do) I'd prefer it if PB nullified them, and either they should leave the positional requirement off Bootshine or change the bonus to something besides a guaranteed crit. Positionals were necessary complexity when they were the only thing Monk had, but now I feel like there are better ways to make the job more interesting. I'd say that the job is already pretty complex though compared to most DPS, so anything they add would have to be pretty mild.

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I don't mind Phantom Rush not aligning; I just want a 30s PB so I can see more PB.

I'm also tired of having to spend oGCDs just to nullify a mechanic, though. I'd rather just have a passively built margin of leniency such that we always feel rewarded for getting our positionals correctly, but we're not screwed over by missing a few per fight, especially to random boss spins (e.g., by successful positionals charge stacks of a 'missed positional forgiven' mechanic). Keep any positional nullification simple, intuitive, and unintrusive.

(Heck, I'd be all for removing True North in favor of that across most melee jobs. Granted, if DRG just had control over which between Wheeling Thrust and Fang & Claw to use first per 5-step combo and had an infrequent non-combo-breaking GCD skill by which to delay Chaos Thrust, it wouldn't even really need that. Note also that NIN can always choose to just delay Armor Crush a bit further unless it's pushing effectively 4 globals to depletion, and Reaper can bank its positionals for later spending.)

My fear regarding Monk, is that they may make some changes based off of feedback so far. I actually think they will take the lazy route again this job, like they have done since its inception, which is just to tack back on positionals and call it a day. I believe this will be the only change Monks will see if any this xpac. Which would P me off immensely, but at the end of the day, most monk players don't know that the class can be good WITHOUT 6 positionals.

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Originally Posted by Navnav

most monk players don't know that the class can be good WITHOUT 6 positionals.

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It can be, sure. But still having something to do during PB-downtime is better than not. Positionals could be drastically improved upon to minimize annoyance, but they did provide that "something", and quite well.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

Thunderclap not having any potency is the best part about it. You can zip around like a madman and not worry about losing DPS.

That said, Monk does feel very slow in between Blitz windows and could probably stand to have something there. Problem is, since Blitz windows are (almost) always RoF windows any sort of oGCD attack would just be put into that, leaving the downtime still slow.

Frankly I'd like if the positionals had stayed, but PB let you ignore them. This way the Blitz window is completely unaffected, but in-between has a slight bit more engagement. Ah well.

As for Riddle of Wind, yeah it's an odd spell. It's essentially a 600 potency DoT that you need to stay in melee range of the boss for. If Monk had any synergy with autoattacks (more chakras, for example) it could have at least had that. Also a 90s cooldown is just so weird when one of their stated goals was to put DPS cooldowns on 60s or 120s timers.

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yeah thunderclap is nice. I just wish there was an option where it was like DNC and you could manually aim to dash forward as opposed to requiring a target. Sometimes in dungeon pulls target is out of range and you can't dash to them defeating the purpose of the change entirely. I just find it odd that the DNC has a better time of staying on trash pulls than a MNK.

or maybe after u gain 2 nadis and use the finisher u get to use PR instead of waiting for a 3rd nadi...

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Originally Posted by PangTong

On paper Blitz seems simple, but in practice executing it perfectly requires you to be aware of a lot of things and be able to quickly adjust on the fly.
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It´s nothing else than what you did pre Blitz or on other classes. You adjust to what is coming and as more often you´ve played a fight, you´re going to get used to it thx to the strict pattern. Imo Blitz might feels new to you or others, but it´ll get stale pretty fast and in any fights with any delays or downtimes, you´ll find a solution and just repeat it.

Since we´ve no oGCD´s and overall nothing else to do, positionals should be easy to play even under Blitz. I mean, you seriously do nothing else than you did before, so i don´t see any issue with it.
Even if you or someone else has some trouble with Blitz-adjustments, they would be a DPS gain and rewarding if you´re able to hit them right? It´s again something you can grow at. With the current Blitz system and 40s of playing 123 between, you can´t really grow.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

It´s nothing else than what you did pre Blitz or on other classes. You adjust to what is coming and as more often you´ve played a fight, you´re going to get used to it thx to the strict pattern. Imo Blitz might feels new to you or others, but it´ll get stale pretty fast and in any fights with any delays or downtimes, you´ll find a solution and just repeat it.

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If I give you a new tool by which to more precisely and/or frequently mitigate an old problem, you've got new gameplay.

It does grow stale, but so does any other mechanic, no matter how complex. Blitz is at least a very good, very solid addition, in its basic concept.

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With the current Blitz system and 40s of playing 123 between, you can´t really grow.

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Neither the current PB nor Blitz (which is not per 40s, nor all-but 40s per minute, nor 123 in between, unlike most melee and blue-dps) is preventing Monk's toolkit from growing, either. GL wouldn't have stopped Monk from having more mechanics before and Blitz isn't going to preclude such now.

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Originally Posted by PangTong

3rd charge of PB would 100% be a big mistake. People are complaining about there not being enough to do between Blitzes right now. If PB had 3 charges, you would use all 3 charges in the opener and then wait 2 full minutes to regenerate all 3 charges so you could blow them all at once again during raid buffs. Keeping it at 2 charges ensures you Blitz at least once a minute. At best I think maybe they could reduce the cooldown of PB to 30 seconds, but this would greatly increase the total damage you get from Blitzes, so they would need to be weakened as a result, or Monk's damage would have to be nerfed in other places.

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3 charges at 30s each would allow us to line up buffs and give us that fulfillment of being able to reach Phantom within both a RoF and BH at some point which would feel great. Yeah, sure, if it comes at reduced potency in return for not having to dance around the base rotation waiting on crits for normal Chakra then so be it.

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As for positionals I think they are fine as they are now, and I was someone who was a supporter of Monk's positionals for years. Blitz is difficult enough without having positionals on top of it, although I could see the potential for a design where positionals are returned but PB lets you ignore them. Even so, I was always frustrated by the Bootshine positional because of how much damage the crit represented, it was extremely punishing to miss. If they were gonna bring back any positionals it should be on Twin Snakes and True Strike only imo, but I don't think they will just because they never make jobs more difficult on purpose even if people ask.

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Blitz is not hard.
In fact, I often find myself performing the now defunct positionals.

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Rather than positionals or more blitzes I would rather if they added something else. Some new cooldown (or two) that doesn't always line up with burst so there's a bit more to do between Blitzes. But there would be the matter of how to make it interesting, and I think such a thing should only come alongside an increase to the chakra cap because even as Monk is now, you miss out on so many chakra because you can't spare the weave window to spend them.

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I don't think we need new CDs. What we need are reworked CDs and abilities such as Anatman, SSS, TK, etc.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

It's 3/4s '1-2-3 downtime', or 2/3s if you count the two Armor Crushes per minute (which should ofc be down outside of TA) as some significant variation.

I really wish they had taken the Raijuu aspect further (among other Ninjutsu), but without a bit more bankability.

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It's honestly weird how much downtime it still has even with Raijuu. Feel like I'd need a faster mudra CD to really fill things out, combined with perhaps the Raijuu stuff being oGCD instead of GCD.

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Originally Posted by VirusOnline

Blitz is not hard.
In fact, I often find myself performing the now defunct positionals.

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Same here. Even doing that, though, MNK still feels so much slower than before, to me.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

If I give you a new tool by which to more precisely and/or frequently mitigate an old problem, you've got new gameplay.

It does grow stale, but so does any other mechanic, no matter how complex. Blitz is at least a very good, very solid addition, in its basic concept.

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I´m not saying Blitz is bad at its core, but it´s overall a bad addition IMO. It would´ve been something different with HW, but not yet, not at this point.
We lost GL and all we had left have been positionals with GCD´s. Instead of just adding a new mechanic, we lost everything with Blitz. So far we lost more than we got and Blitz itself just add 3 Burstskills to MNKs kit. PB is splitted in 2 3-key charges instead of 1 6-key charge. The rest is the same.
On top Blitz is nothing but a Meikyo-Mudra-Mix somehow put into a rotation you´ve played for ages, but you can only use it half the times you can use Mudra with 1/3 of its skills meanwhile 1 is useless anyway.

- It´s nothing real new which add to the the gameplay, just 1 burstskill every 40s.
- It´s something we already have on other classes. (Homogenization at its best)
- We lost more than we got back.

I´ts solid yes and i woulnd´t be mad about it as addition to ALL 6 positionals. But given as it is, it isn´t spectacular or something i can see a bright future with. And i don´t even want to get more stuff added to Blitz, otherwise i would play NIN you know?! MNK´s niche concept has always been "the fast positional heavy class" and it should return like this.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Neither the current PB nor Blitz (which is not per 40s, nor all-but 40s per minute, nor 123 in between, unlike most melee and blue-dps) is preventing Monk's toolkit from growing, either. GL wouldn't have stopped Monk from having more mechanics before and Blitz isn't going to preclude such now.

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I´m not talking about MNK´s toolkit, i´m talking about the skillfloor and skill-ceiling. Positionals always gave you the advantage to grow, to get a better DPS, to switch up your gameplay a little bit based on the given content. Blitz is blitz and without positionals, the only gain relies on the Demolish timer and how to play around it in Solarnadi-phases.

We need more mech, overall polish and rework, (revamped action <= personal hope ! ) and maybe one new button as a part of a new mech ?

Give us back GL animation also please : ) <= First of all: aesthetic : )

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

I´m not saying Blitz is bad at its core, but it´s overall a bad addition IMO.

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We'll have to agree to disagree then.

I've defended the hell out of GL over the years, but Blitz did not cost us GL. GL was already dead and gone.

Heck, even by the start of Shadowbringers, GL had no real effect. Unlike its ARR iteration, it no longer allowed us to be tuned at BLM+ levels of damage so long as we maintained it even in complex fights (see T9). It didn't compensate for its own cost as it did in HW, when TK was tuned higher relative to n GCDs. It wasn't usable as a resource, as it was in 4.3. It was merely vestigial.

Nor did Blitz cost us of our "Fists of X" stances; they were stillborn from the start and it would have taken significant reworks to the whole kit, around said Fists of X, to breathe life into them. (There are means of reviving those stances I'd have loved to explore, but... that's a story for another time.)

And, frankly, if I had to choose between GL even in its best iteration (4.3) and Blitz as a single concept to build upon, as much as I will forever champion 4.3 Monk... I'd have to say that Blitz is the better base concept.

And let's be clear: PB->Blitz plays nothing like Meikyo, Iaijutsu, Inner Release, Delirium, or Ninjutsu or whatever other 3-part burst phase thingamabob you may wish to mention... due to its context. Before actually trying it in depth, I was worried about the same, since I generally despise homogenization. I needn't had been worried.

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I´m not talking about MNK´s toolkit, i´m talking about the skillfloor and skill-ceiling. Positionals always gave you the advantage to grow, to get a better DPS, to switch up your gameplay a little bit based on the given content. Blitz is blitz and without positionals, the only gain relies on the Demolish timer and how to play around it in Solarnadi-phases.

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Nor did Blitz cost us our positionals. If positionals were seen as uniquely an issue for PB, PB would have --in effect-- gotten the Gluttony treatment, guaranteeing positionals over its 3 hits. And having another tool with/around which to optimize Demolish and Twin is... exactly what Monk has been about since ARR (though via ToD/Fracture back then, or later your TK timings in 4.3, before being dead in the water for 5.x because of SSS's tuning).

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Originally Posted by meowmaou

It's honestly weird how much downtime it still has even with Raijuu. Feel like I'd need a faster mudra CD to really fill things out, combined with perhaps the Raijuu stuff being oGCD instead of GCD.

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Well, yeah; Raijuu only varies up 2 GCDs per minute after your opener, since you should still be using one mudra per minute each on Suiton and Hyosho. Raijuu doesn't even add APM, since Forked and Fleeting are both on the GCD.

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Originally Posted by VirusOnline

3 charges at 30s each would allow us to line up buffs and give us that fulfillment of being able to reach Phantom within both a RoF and BH at some point which would feel great.

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3 charges allows you an incredibly crowded opener with a delayed RoF that fits PR into raid (de)buffs, sure. But you've then 2 minutes til the next full raid window and only 90s til you're capped, forcing you towards the very same extra Solar as before if you want PR under full raid buffs. What's so wrong with just having a (30s CD, 2-charge) macrorotation of Either-Other, Double-Either; Other-Double, Either-Other; Double-Either, Other-Double; etc. Double (Phantom Rush) will still fall within full buffs two-thirds of the time.

It's worth noting here that Yoshida already mentioned that he didn't want Monk's burst to fall solely within raid windows and that Monk was balanced accordingly, no? I'm plenty happy with that identity; it's largely just a matter of then being overtuned in informal and low-man / light-party content. I merely want Blitz a bit more frequent (30s CD) because I enjoy its interactions and a 40s CD extends past both the maximum and theoretical durations of two Demolishes, around which we could otherwise flex PB use a bit more.

I've taken the time to play around with MNK a bit more since EW released and structured a proper opener and I feel like negative reactions to MNK are really knee-jerk in nature, taking the time to work it out, it feels fine and isn't confusing/annoying at all. I can understand feeling frustrated at losing some oGCD actions and some positionals, but for me, the pros far outweigh the cons.

The levelling experience is more appealing since they moved chakras to a much lower level and its nice they brought back Steel Peak and Howling Fist. Thunderclap is superior to Shoulder Tackle in every way and feels far more response, so we can actually use our mobility tool for movement instead of damage. I can't speak for everyone, but I feel that the Blitz skills feel impactful and building them up is straightforward.

Overall, I'm still only level 82 so far, but from what I've seen, we don't get too much more other than upgrades to existing skills, so it feels complete as it is and I like it a lot, I look forward to playing more. I can see how its confusing if you are already at 80 and swap to MNK without reading up how it works, but once you do, its absolutely fine.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

We'll have to agree to disagree then.
I've defended the hell out of GL over the years, but Blitz did not cost us GL. GL was already dead and gone.

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Blitz didn´t cost us GL so far but positionals for sure, which is a completely unneccessary change so far.

And as i said a year ago at the GL change. Have you ever considered, that SE tried to cater all the MNK mains? It´s not only the casuals who complained at each expansion about something. TK rotation, Anatman Opener, useless Fists, whatever it has been, ppl complained. We had tools to maintain GL in downtimes, we had/has a decent disengage-tool, which is unique so far. We do even made use out of 2 fists with GL4. The only issue which lasted has been a dumb cutszene in any 4th savage fight. This was even only an issue caused by no safespots, which was not even a big deal since PB was up.
But everywhere still complaints about MNK. On one hand the casuals "GL mimimi, being punished more than on other classes because i play bad mimimi, positionals i could ignore in any content but savage mimimi!" and on the other hand the mains "This is useless, that is useless, even those unique skills with a rare use are useless, and look at MNK´s dps."

Yes we just got some dumb skills to maintain GL and MNK stood the same otherwise. But that was indeed the biggest issue MNK had and it got fixed somehow. SE tried to cater all the MNK mains here for sure, but did the complaints stop? NO! Do they even stop yet? NO!
We lost everything and it got replaced with a new mechanic, which is nothing but a poor Mudra. SE added 3 burstskills as GCD´s together with some new and old animations to MNK meanwhile deleting everything else. The so called "MNK mains" obviously didn´t got catered enough, so SE gives af about them and caters casuals who don´t even care about MNK at all. Ppl which are sooooo glad, but don´t even touch it before finishing 10 other classes with 3 buttons, a little pet or just without any circumstances aka RDPS. It´s actually the same shit which happened to SMN this expansion. Does it looks cool? Yes... Is it a good gameplay? Hell no.

So many classes got fck´d over the years because of complaints over complaints from both sides and in the end everything has become super braindead to cater ppl who don´t give af and don´t even try. (Because it´s soooo important to not being punished for badplays, or that a carbuncle has a delay, or that a fairy has a metastance, that tanks have been able to do damage, or not... and now we´ve a worldwide AST star :D GG WP!)


EDIT: I´ve seen lots of SMN´s, dozens of BRD´s, RPR, SGE and other classes. But just about 3 times a MNK when 2/3 has been bad ones. Yeah yeah... the new MNK seems to be a gamechanger, when even less players care about it than before. I really don´t care about Blitz, but positionals needs to come back. And at this point, stop complaining about the last 10 DPS difference.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

Blitz didn´t cost us GL so far but positionals for sure, which is a completely unneccessary change so far.

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What part of Blitz, a skill that requires no more positioning than we had before to set up and even rewards you with a positional-less GCD, would possibly require the loss of positionals? There's no significant added cognitive load beyond deciding when to prep them, which is no different than RoF. Remembering whether you're doing the All-Same, All-Different, or Any Blitz is insignificant.

No. They are separate. The devs got rid of positionals because they wanted rid of positionals. Such was out of touch with their established job-users, obviously, but it had nothing to do with Blitz.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

in the end everything has become super braindead to cater ppl who don´t give af and don´t even try.

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I want the dude(s) balancing MNK to just totally fucking lose it one day and say "you know what, fuck you guys" and make everything hard as balls again.
The players they keep dumbing down old jobs for just zoom to whatever's new and shiny every expac, anyway.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

It can be, sure. But still having something to do during PB-downtime is better than not. Positionals could be drastically improved upon to minimize annoyance, but they did provide that "something", and quite well.

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They could bring back all positionals, and just have PB remove the requirements while it is active. Though I would rather have the CD be 45s instead of your proposed 30s and instead add a little more potency unto blitz skills.

Either way, Perfect balance should be.... well, perfectly balanced.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

They could bring back all positionals, and just have PB remove the requirements while it is active. Though I would rather have the CD be 45s instead of your proposed 30s and instead add a little more potency unto blitz skills.

Either way, Perfect balance should be.... well, perfectly balanced.

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PB going up to 45 seconds would make it impossible to ever plan around. Right now you can intentionally adjust your early blitzes to get phantom rush to align with the 120 second party buffs, but if the window between attacks goes up to 135 seconds, then it will never be something you can attempt to buff.

40 seconds is fine, but there should be some means of getting phantom rush off in the opener, which there is not.

From my perspective, though, the fixes I think it needs is masterful blitz being changed from a weaponskill to an ability so the execution of the blitz goes off the global cooldown and/or a slight increase to the disciplined fist buff. The window is pretty tight to get your moves off before that expires assuming you're using perfect balance as soon as it comes up.

Also minor thing, both monk and dragoon should get our damage increasing buff timer moved from a generic character buff to one shown on our job gauge. It's not that it's impossible to watch in the buff bars, but after the past 5 years of the important information being on the job gauge, it's awkward that just these two jobs now have to watch their primary buffs again a manner we haven't had to since Heavensward.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

Also minor thing, both monk and dragoon should get our damage increasing buff timer moved from a generic character buff to one shown on our job gauge. It's not that it's impossible to watch in the buff bars, but after the past 5 years of the important information being on the job gauge, it's awkward that just these two jobs now have to watch their primary buffs again a manner we haven't had to since Heavensward.

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The moment twin snakes gets on our job gauge, I think a certain group of people will realize that it's the new Greased Lightning and start calling for that to also become a passive.

just want to throw my 2 cents in there: i started monk in SB and absolutely loved TK monk. since then i've watched it gutted beyond belief. i've leveled up reaper and am having a good time with that. to me, positionals on monk are a unique concept (some games do a couple positionals on jobs here and there, but nothing like monk). it kept the job busy and always striving to do better and learn the fights better. i thought with a new mechanic (MB) finally plus the positionals the class would be really fun again, but nope, the positionals are gone. reaper main for the time being unless they revert this.

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Originally Posted by IruruCece

The moment twin snakes gets on our job gauge, I think a certain group of people will realize that it's the new Greased Lightning and start calling for that to also become a passive.

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While that may be true... I do still wish it was there just to make tracking things easier.

I've always played MNK main. And my view is that they took something that was already an awkward rotation (which it was as you could have just kept flank and rear grouped within the rotation instead of the one here one there crap) and now just made things super confusing. I don't know why they just didn't simplify the rotation as that's all they really needed to do pre Endwalker. Love/Hate positionals, that wasn't the real problem the real problem was MNK having to build up to their output potential while other DPS classes had no such limitation. But that had been fixed with the whole greased lightning changes. They now added these beast chakra abilities, which again created another basically useless ability (because it's at the lower end of the totem pole in damage which is Celestial Revolution so who is going to waste clicks on this in their rotation) on top of creating additional actions within the rotation that creates multiple layers to it. I get that the monk shouldn't feel boring but it also shouldn't be what Ninja used to be either. I feel like they were getting much closer to the sweet spot before they went this direction. I really don't understand why they can't get this right.

The one area I feel like they actually improved MNK this expac is the amount of skills you have when sync'd down. RPR is downright miserable, but MNK's still got things it can do.

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Originally Posted by meowmaou

The one area I feel like they actually improved MNK this expac is the amount of skills you have when sync'd down. RPR is downright miserable, but MNK's still got things it can do.

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This is very true, AoE also feels amazing imo.
Most fun AoE in the game I think.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

Also minor thing, both monk and dragoon should get our damage increasing buff timer moved from a generic character buff to one shown on our job gauge. It's not that it's impossible to watch in the buff bars, but after the past 5 years of the important information being on the job gauge, it's awkward that just these two jobs now have to watch their primary buffs again a manner we haven't had to since Heavensward.

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Agreed. An indicator for Disciplined Fist and Leaden Fist would be great to keep everything in one spot instead of squinting to see the yellow vs orange icons.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

This is very true, AoE also feels amazing imo.
Most fun AoE in the game I think.

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Oh yeah, the new crit move is fantastic. Not a huge fan of the phoenix MB though, it doesn't really have much impact.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

PB going up to 45 seconds would make it impossible to ever plan around. Right now you can intentionally adjust your early blitzes to get phantom rush to align with the 120 second party buffs, but if the window between attacks goes up to 135 seconds, then it will never be something you can attempt to buff.

40 seconds is fine, but there should be some means of getting phantom rush off in the opener, which there is not.

From my perspective, though, the fixes I think it needs is masterful blitz being changed from a weaponskill to an ability so the execution of the blitz goes off the global cooldown and/or a slight increase to the disciplined fist buff. The window is pretty tight to get your moves off before that expires assuming you're using perfect balance as soon as it comes up.

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The current 40s strikes a good balance between at least forcing some forethought and allowing for sync. Any longer would wreck that. Going as low as 30s, likewise, would drop a fair deal of nuance in favor of frequency and more obvious flavor. Having gotten used to different openers for different fights, I'm less certain I'm okay with that now that I previously thought I'd be.

That said, I definitely don't want to see Blitz taken off the GCD. Of course, the obvious fix there isn't even a job change: it's to just make SkS less crap of a stat and not to so badly crush secondary stat contribution at the start of each expansion (even if that means having our Haste/DHit/Crit percentages raise less over the course of the expansion). Voila. Now we can strike whatever balance we desire in terms of squeezing out those Blitzes into the larger rotation.

As for the gauge discussion, I'd just love to see certain gauges split up into component parts, each of which can be separately hidden, and for active gauges to blacklist whatever status bar effect they hold. I.e., if I don't want to show my Chakra gauge, then it turns back into a 1-5 stack tracker on my status bar, and if I want my Disciplined Fist gauge -- poof, it no longer shows on the status bar. At least by default. Include a further option via Character Config -> UI to allow those effects to show in both places.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

MNK is probably the easiest melee currently imo.

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The easiest melee is reaper and it's not even remotely close.

I enjoy new monk so far (level 87 but it's not like they get anything actually new to integrate after that), but not enough to get me to main it. I hated the job prior to this, but the loss of positionals has helped me out quite a bit in actually enjoying the job. Blitz is a half-baked mechanic but the payoff skills are really cool and satisfying so it's good in my book. Cooldown alignment is weird though, and I really have to fight the urge to double-weave. Also have no idea why they kept 6-sided star around.

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

The easiest melee is reaper and it's not even remotely close.

I enjoy new monk so far (level 87 but it's not like they get anything actually new to integrate after that), but not enough to get me to main it. I hated the job prior to this, but the loss of positionals has helped me out quite a bit in actually enjoying the job. Blitz is a half-baked mechanic but the payoff skills are really cool and satisfying so it's good in my book. Cooldown alignment is weird though, and I really have to fight the urge to double-weave. Also have no idea why they kept 6-sided star around.

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I dunno about that, RPR feels like it's got a lot more to keep track of than MNK, once you hit 90 at least. I've got 3 melees at 90 so far and in terms of depth I'd rate them something like NIN > RPR >>> MNK. Haven't leveled SAM or DRG yet.