hmm, i should have spelled out Game Makers instead, I did not mean to refer to the Game Masters...Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
Will Bot's ever be punished?
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05-06-2012, 03:16 AMMatsume
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05-06-2012, 03:38 AMZiyyigo-TipyigoThat's not easy to do, though. The Linkshell interface only lets you know whether someone is online or off, and won't tell you where they are or give you any idea of what they're doing. At best, you might stumble upon one doing something you frown upon.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheVedis
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05-06-2012, 03:47 AMHyristWell to be honest. There's no way to make a game bot proof.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matsume
Technically speaking, the game is a program. If you can program specific inputs, you can make a program to intelligently read the game and respond by putting in those required input. Make a harder to bot game, make a better bot.
It's just not possible to be constantly on top of new technology before it exists. Additionally, there is only so far you can go before you start to punish your players for the botters attacks.
Now, what you can do is make botting ineffectual in the long run.
For example, on aggressive monsters, if you agro them before the botters start attacking, the credit is yours even if they kill them. Meaning a player spotting a bot could screw with them for quite a long time. Not by botting, but by simply staying still and getting agro.
SE's done a pretty good job of making the influence of Bots pretty non-important. They're hoarding gil... ok, what's that going to do? Players can make their own gil easily and all SE has to do is ban the accounts they intend to flood the system and monopolize the auction house with. OR, they can just prevent monopolization on the auction by enforcing a price cap for goods.
Right now the botters are nothing more than an eyesore and they're going to learn the hard way that a lot of the economy is built against them already. I just hope the Auction House is built against them too. -
05-06-2012, 04:17 AMZiyyigo-TipyigoIn my own experience they're unfeasible. Either everyone talks in the more common language, or you essentially end up with two separate linkshells that just happen to share the same /linkshell channel. Besides, among the JP and NA playerbases, they're practically nonexistent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
Can? Yes. Are likely to? No. Server stats from XI published as part of their regular census show very distinct usage peaks for the evening hours in JP, NA and EU time zones, respectively. Those who tend to play in off-peak hours for their region are statistically insignificant.Quote:
It also assumes all players can and should play only during their specific region's peak times
No, I even have several in my own linkshell. But they speak in /linkshell in English, even to each other. There's no point in using /linkshell unless everyone in it can understand what you're saying. Unless everyone in a particular linkshell is fluent in (e. g.) English and French, conversation will either resort to the most common language, or the group itself will Balkanize.Quote:
Also assumes multilingual people do not exist.
So everything relies on the small handful of players that perform essentially the same function as a currency exchange? Maybe the next new class should be "banker."Quote:
Further assumes players are not a part of multiple linkshells.
The Wards are still only marginally useful. Bazaars/shouts/etc only work (when they do work) for people who are online at the same time as you, which (statistically speaking) will be people in your own region. In the best case scenario, you end up not with one server-wide economy, but three distinct economies: one during JP peak hours, one during NA peak hours, and one during EU peak hours.Quote:
I have listed out-of-linkshell examples, you have callously disregarded them.
None of them extend beyond Ul'dah and, for most classes, participation requires you to stop doing anything else.
Our discussion began with you insisting that XIV has a meaningful "economy." An economy is about the only difference between a server with hundreds of players and one with a few dozen. If a "worldwide" server of 500+ and a private server of ~50 are functionally equivalent, how can the case be made that a viable economy exists in the former?Quote:
This comment is irrelevant to our discussion
Does an economy require an AH? Probably not. But does an economy (or at least a functional, viable one) exist in XIV as it currently stands? No. -
05-06-2012, 08:12 AMMoonKeeperr
I know how you feel i'd farm the sheep also but only 1-2 stacks. few days later on my server market is over flooded with RMT retainers selling there sheep goods to and i can tell its like 99 stacks on same retainer then other person with same retainer name almost but 99 stacks its crazy only way to sell ur stuff is undercut like AH wars in XI
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05-06-2012, 08:27 AMPSxpert2011Yeah, I'm a normal, hard working north america citizen who can hardly pay for his college tuition, yet alone his student loans but I own a robot which cooks, cleans, cuts the lawn, washes the car, the dishes, folds the cloths, fetches the mail and walks the dog. It's okay, i'm not like 'them', I'm only your normal every day person.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matsume
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheVedis
Well well, you can either be with them or against them. Knowledge is half the battle and it's power to use as you wish...
I don't have to tell you whether your right or wrong, there's a 'user agreement' for that. -
05-06-2012, 10:00 AMToxsik
Okay I agree that botting makes most everyone upset, It's just that I am soooo tired of seeing these types of threads... almost as much as I am tired of seeing botter's. Please give it a break... And wait till the game is done and in play before expecting to see rules enforced and GM's running around doing something about it. Priorities are elsewhere right now obviously.
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05-06-2012, 10:16 AMRydinTrue... I'd rather have the game finished, even with RMT and BOTs than have a BOT-free game that is a completely unfinished train wreckQuote:
Originally Posted by Toxsik
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05-06-2012, 11:17 AMAntipikaDoing so could get you suspended for harassment you know? You have absolutely no right to start shouting claiming that player X or Y is a cheater, no matter how many evidence you have. That's purely and simply harassment.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheVedis
SE is the only entity that can decide if someone is violating the rules or not. Based on evidences they have (their logs) and not some youtube video or screenshots made by a third party.
Boot players from your LS is the best you can do, as you are entirely free to boot whoever you want. Reporting them to GMs/STF, same, you can do so. Shouting in Ul'dah, making threads on officials forums etc. = no.
It would be kind of sad to get suspended because a cheater reported you for harassment. It works exactly the same in real life, claiming that someone is a criminal while that person hasn't been judged guilty isn't allowed. (At least where I live.)
Whoever wants a game that is bot proof is retarded. However what you want is a game design that encourage "human actions" over simple repetitive actions that can be botted.Quote:
Well to be honest. There's no way to make a game bot proof.
Sadly that demand good game designers and that's not something we have right now on XIV ><. If something very simple and repetitive is rewarding in any kind of way, there is a design flaw.
I'll take gathering as an example. In Rift, the last tier of gathering materials (used for level max armor / endgame items) could only be found in lv.50 dungeons. Therefore RMTs couldn't access these resources, since dungeons cannot be repeated as many as you want + you needed a proper party and proper gear. In the end, even if a group of geared RMTs decided to "farm" dungeons for resources, they would still have to play the game the normal way (defeat bosses and trash mobs on the way, have a proper party setup etc.).
Gathering lower tier resources was just pointless for most of crafts because the value was too low. Epic recipes required last tier materials. Same goes for last tier of consumable that were used for raiding.
(It's not like the game was RMT-free, there was other things that could be done to earn money easily by RMTs (like spamming daily quests with multiple accounts), yet at least legit players could make profit with content that wasn't accessible by RMTs).
That's what SE should do instead of putting a material like Karakul Fleece, used for Felt/Wool which are "high tier" materials needed for lv45+ recipes, on lv41 monsters that can be killed by a software...
It would be great to have gathering node inside dungeons and also have boss drop crafting materials. Make drop for lv45+ items hard to get, on lv53+ monsters, which cannot be killed by a software and would require human attention.
The whole drop system on XIV makes no sense. You kill lv53 wolf in Natalan, you obtain Wolf Hides that are lv20 and completely useless. Yet lower level monsters can be more profitable... -
05-07-2012, 11:00 PMPSxpert2011
Should just create a server to isolate RMT, Bots or suspected Bots until a full investigation is complete. win/win
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05-07-2012, 11:05 PMMatsumeAm i the only person that did not understand at all the sarcasm in this post?Quote:
Originally Posted by PSxpert2011
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05-07-2012, 11:20 PMTheVedisdoesnt work, since anyone can be accused and thus suspected, and youd be ripping them away from the game they play with othersQuote:
Originally Posted by PSxpert2011
hitting bots isnt worth hitting innocent people in the process -
05-07-2012, 11:27 PMFearRMTs will only go where people will buy there items / gil so they will ALWAYS be on normal servers,Quote:
Originally Posted by PSxpert2011
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05-07-2012, 11:29 PMTheVedisyou didnt understand what hes askingQuote:
Originally Posted by Fear
hes saying take anyone whos suspected or even reported, and remove them from their current server and put them on another one while they are investigated
which doesnt work, the idea is full of tons of holes, and extremely unfair to those who are accused out of spite(itl happen) -
05-08-2012, 12:11 AMFear
I did understand but I was just stating that even if you moved them they'll either transfer back or create new characters / accounts.
RMTs and Botters will always exist, the only thing to do is try to make things need an actual input, even if it means having to dodge monsters. -
05-08-2012, 01:08 AMFiosha_Maureiba
I akin botting to ye olde electronik piracy. A user might justify their actions in one way or another. They might not believe their actions impact others. But in the end, it's not yourself or your peers you need to convince, but the enforcers.
Enforcers named Harry Callahan and Don Marshall. -
05-08-2012, 01:43 AMSeth_Ahriman
Here is the issue, with a good group u can get 50 everything in a week...
What do you do from there... craft.
People hate crafting. -
05-08-2012, 02:41 AMTheVedisthats not a good reasonQuote:
Originally Posted by Seth_Ahriman
"people bot because people hate crafting"
if you hate it, dont do it
cheating is still not acceptable -
05-08-2012, 07:12 AMAntipika
No one care about having a good reason or not, or about what is acceptable or not. DEVs feed you with stupid and repetitive things (hurr durr press enter to win!), players circumvent that. It's not hard to understand. I'm not defending cheaters here but rather pointing out that the issue is coming from the design itself rather than the players.
Fix the design => cheaters are gone.
Keep complaining about how bad cheating is, how unacceptable it is etc. => cheaters don't care.
And banning everyone doesn't work anyway. We've seen it with XI, even when SE banned tons of RMT and such between 2007~2009, they still remain in-game as of today. XI is plagued with cheaters, could it be normal players or RMTs.
Another good XI example that isn't crafting related but clearly show how a bad design turns "normal users" into cheaters, Nyzul. Current Nyzul is just barely possible to win without the use of third party tools (could it be speedhacking, fill mode hack (see through walls) etc.), victory is highly based on luck. What are a lot of players doing? Using tools to increase their victory rate.
Bad design lead to massive cheating. Fix the root of the problem rather than its consequences.
I suppose you have a job in real life right? What are you getting paid for? To perform a task only a human can do I hope (or which would cost too much if done by a machine). If what you are doing on a daily basis could be done by a simple software, would your boss keep paying you? No. It should be the same with XIV and MMO to an extent. Reward players for things they accomplish, things that can only be done with the power of a human brain and not by some stupid script. -
05-08-2012, 07:50 AMPreypacerRMT can be bypassed in any game, by actually playing it. Doing business with RMT companies is never a necessity. It's always a choice - the claims of some that "the game forces them to do it" notwithstanding. A game doesn't force you to do anything, up to and including playing it at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
The problem is there are people who are more interested in finding ways to progress by not playing the game (RMT, hacking, botting, buying power-leveling services, etc). Those people become the RMT's steady customers, keeping them in business, and keeping them coming back to the game no matter how often they're banned. So long as there are people who are willing to give those people business, you'll see them in-game.
SE did a great job with combatting it via their task force in FFXI, once they dug in and decided to get serious about it. The Getting Serious part is what took them a while. Hopefully they'll be more on top of it in XIV. -
05-08-2012, 08:32 AMMadruk
No other game needs such a massive FBI (special task force), because no other game had such retarded designs built in specifically to waste your time. All asian mmo's share this fundamental flaw. They're only just now starting to learn that there are other ways to mask it.
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05-08-2012, 09:10 AMPreypacerIt's not nearly that cut-and-dry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antipika
Not all cheating is because "people don't want to do repetitive things". It's one reason of many.
In general, people cheat for things like competitiveness, convenience and laziness, among others.
People have been RMT'ing in Lineage 2 for years at the high end. These people have already gotten to level cap (botted) and have all the best gear (RMT'd) so they can beat others (who also botted and RMT'd). People buy gold and such in MMOs so they can just get the item they want without having to earn it.
People used speed-hacks in FFXI and in other games to get around faster than they should have been able to. People use radar hacks in games like Darkfall to locate other players they would otherwise not be able to see (behind walls, etc). People have been cheating in FPS games using aim-bots and the like in order to get an edge over other players. People have used hacks and cheats in RTS type games.
In other words, there are people who will cheat in video games, whatever the genre, what ever the play style.
People cheat because they want the pay-off without the effort or time required to obtain it. They want the victory without having to actually legitimately earn it. -
05-08-2012, 09:15 AMPreypacerYou're arguing from ignorance. Your ill-informed and equally ignorant stereotype of "Asian MMOs" only makes it worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Madruk
Blizzard has fought RMT in WoW, to the degree of suing the developers of a botting program, as I recall. They are most decidedly not "an Asian MMO". LoTRO and DDO have RMT; Turbine is a US-based company. Rift Online has RMT, and Trion is based in California. The Old Republic has RMT, not an Asian MMO. Age of Conan has RMT; not an Asian MMO. Vanguard, a Western MMO, has RMT. DC Universe Online has RMT, not an Asian MMO. Everquest 1 and 2 both have RMT, not Asian MMOs...
Need I continue, or has the ignorance of your remarks been sufficiently illuminated?
Every single MMO out there with anything resembling a population has RMT - regardless of what style it is, who developed it, or where they're located - because every MMO out there has people playing it who would rather buy and cheat their way through the game than actually play it. The excuses they come up with, almost always blaming the game's design, is nothing but an attempt to justify their behavior to themselves. In their heart of hearts, I don't think even they believe their own BS most times.
If a game has activities you find repetitious and unenjoyable, it's a reason to not do those activities. If the game doesn't offer enough else that you enjoy, then it's a reason to decide maybe it's not the game for you and you'd find better entertainment for your money elsewhere. It's not a reason nor justification for cheating, RMT'ing, hacking, exploiting, etc. Ever. Those EULA's and ToS's you agree to when you log into a game aren't there because developers like paying Lawyers to draft up lengthy documents for them. -
05-08-2012, 09:44 AMTheVedisyou do realize almost every other game which combats rmt in some way has this tooQuote:
Originally Posted by Madruk
SE is the only company who is up front about giving this force a public name -
05-08-2012, 12:36 PMPreypacerActually, I would say taht in my experience very, very, very few MMOs have what SE developed. Many MMOs relegate RMT control to their GMs, who are already buried in customer support issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheVedis
I don't know of any other developer who has created an entire team, who has further developed tools designe specifically to track and deal with RMT, to counter the methods they use to track and deal with them, who reports to their players on a regular basis how many were banned, what the activities were, what they're looking into next, etc. Most MMos I've played, they're mostly like "yes, we deal with RMT. No we can't tell you when, how or how many we banned". GMs do not handle RMT issues. They all go to the Task Force. I've also never seen a MMO developer's actions have such a profound effect on RMT in as short a time-span as the Task Force did in XI after they initially started using it.
Many MMOs I've played have had RMT control that was absolutely abysmal, pretty much non-existant.
Now maybe other developers have taken meaures to that degree that I'm not aware of. I'll never say "SE is the only one to do it to that degree". I will say confidently that of all the MMOs I've played or followed, they're one of the very few who have taken it that seriously. -
05-08-2012, 12:47 PMTheVediswell right off the bat i know wow has an rmt task force too, they just dont publicly announce it(gms take reports and pass them on basicaly to be dealt with)Quote:
Originally Posted by Preypacer
then again wow also isnt afraid to piss off its customers by mass banning innocent people to catch a few bad ones....which i really dont agree with -
05-08-2012, 12:54 PMPreypacerIndeed. I consider WoW/Blizzard one of the few I know of.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheVedis
Then you have companies like Sony Online Ent. who "combatted it" by embracing it and opening Station Exchange servers where RMT is sanctioned, with SOE getting a share of the money. Of course they did absolutely nothing to combat RMT on the other servers. -
05-08-2012, 01:20 PMTheVedisnot like blizzard isnt embracing it now too *coughd3*Quote:
Originally Posted by Preypacer
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05-08-2012, 01:26 PMPreypacerlol fair point.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheVedis
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05-08-2012, 01:41 PMCenewulfAll I can say is Jedi covenant at prime time on the east coast is the only server that goes as high as very heavy in population (Fat man being the only full server and the rest standard or light) and it was within the time it took 1.1 to release that i was constantly sent mail and messaged about credit sites and the like. then maybe 2 weeks before 1.2 It all vanished.Quote:
Originally Posted by Preypacer
Not sure about the other servers but I dont see any of it on swtor on my server. we do have alot of republic pvp'ers who are the dumbest possible. I wish we could get them banned. -
05-08-2012, 01:59 PMDufer
Preypacer, just wanna say it's awesome you mentioned Darkfall. Didn't know any other FFXIV players would know of it honestly. lol
edit: to stay on topic, I see 2 botters in Muy tuy 24/7. Gets kind of old but doesn't really bother me. -
05-08-2012, 06:22 PMAntipika>Competitiveness : Design flaw. You shouldn't be more competitive by using simple bots in MMOs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Preypacer
>Convenience: DEV's job to make the game/UI convenient for players rather than a hassle.
A good example here, in DAoC (Yoshi-P played 5 years+), you could desynthesize heavy armors into metal you would then sell to NPC for making profit.
1 armor could yield around 30-40 ingots. These ingot had to be turned into some kind of item to be sold for a premium at NPC (ingot themselves worth nothing). That process required to craft items using ingots 2 by 2. It was long and tedious, because when desynthesizing 20 armors for example (800 ingots), you would have to click in total 400 times every 9-10 seconds to turn all that metal into the item you wanted.
What happened then? Lot of players started to use "auto-clicker" software that would simply click the macro every 10sec while they do something else like read a book, play a fun game, etc.
Eventually, DEVs realized how this process was stupid and how everyone was "cheating" to circumvent it. They then implemented a special item that could be made using 20 ingots instead of 2 and where you only had to click once every minute or so.
They turned something that was really inconvenient for players into something convenient. Sure you could still cheat, but there was almost no point anymore since you could just do armor recycling "normally" with this new method, without feeling like a brainless bot clicking every 9 seconds.
>FPS and RTS: That's a different story here, cheating software are far more advanced than what we are talking about in XIV. Also at high level (i.e. tournaments) cheating isn't possible and that's what matters. Complaining about cheats in FPS/RTS would be like saying: it is possible to cheat at local sports events by using illegal drugs. No one is gonna run blood tests for a low level competition, since no one cares. -
05-09-2012, 02:20 AMMadrukThank you for that insightful dissertation on how RMT are in every game. The big difference with all of those games is money is never really an issue. I've played all of them and in no other game has gil been such a focal point to where you have to spend hours upon hours farming. Even EQ, the game you could argue FFXI took alot of influence from, never had the degree of money farming (if any) FFXI had.Quote:
Originally Posted by Preypacer
And that was my original point. The more repetitive bullshit you put into a game the more prevalent RMT's are. FFXI had designs put in place that allowed RMT's and bots to control a sizeable part of the game. Do you think RMT's have that much control in a game like WoW? Hell no, they don't. You see this type of design in most Korean MMO's too (which in most recent AAA ones, is thankfully starting to phase out). Guess what happens there?
Blizzard sued because of how popular that particular bot had become, not withstanding the guy made alot of money in the process (the bigger reason they cared). -
05-09-2012, 03:11 AMPSxpert2011
Some people say "cheaters are going to cheat" as if that's a good defense. Is this person with them?? IDC People break the rules IRL too and it causes an impact on others through many means. If you read the terms of service/ user agreement, it says to not use 3rd party tools. Plain and simple, no matter their reasons or justification. I have chosen a side, and that's the side of right not wrong.
People break the rules, they cheat and maybe get away with it 'yaaaay'.... >.>
"When you have no fear of repercussions or respect for you fellow persons and care only for yourself righteous indignation(whether it be a game or IRL), you deserve to made an example of. When everyone else is doing it the right thing, the right way, working hard and 'earning' their just payments, we don't need corruption around."
Game or no game, if there's any sort of competition involved, your only as good as your "will to win" and succeed. What else can I say that hasn't been said already?? I just wouldn't cheat because I believe in liberty without restrictions! The more out-of-hand the game gets, more limitations and restriction are applied creating a more convoluted system. It's also giving the company more work and setting back more updates we as a community would rather have in the future.
Please play fair or don't play at all! -
05-10-2012, 02:03 AMMatsume
Speaking about bots, The Vedis mentioned in another post having seen someone using a new hack/bot that gathers the same node repeatedly past the 8 strike threshold until the node is tapped out. Any other confirmations of this one existing?
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05-10-2012, 02:23 AMFearI wouldn't believe this, as far as I'm aware the nodes are delt with server-side which would be impossible for any bot to alter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matsume
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05-10-2012, 02:25 AMGrissGood thing square preemptively crashed all of the markets by making the game hose you down with gil by looking at anything then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhalmel
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05-10-2012, 02:30 AMAirgetQuote:
Originally Posted by Matsume
Baed on gathering the checks seem to goQuote:
Originally Posted by Fear
-Start-
-Choose-
-Cut-
-Gain-
-Check attempts left-
-repeat-
If you think about it Fishers can already do this when they fish at a random location that isn't a school of fish. If this is actually happening odds are hackers looked at the checks while fishing at a random location and found a way to imitate it so that they could make it happen at a logging/mining point. All they have to do is remove the check that says how many cuts they have left and they are free to cut as much as they like. -
05-10-2012, 04:08 AMFear
If thats true then its stupid, SE could very easily add an auto-detection tool for 9+ gathering attemps = instant ban (besides fishing)
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05-10-2012, 04:12 AMMatsumeThere are a lot of obvious and easy Anti-bot/RMT solutions SE could implement...and i'm still waiting for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fear