But some of that is backwards. The choice about the heart of Zodiark tells us that they had time during the process to deliberate about who it should be and even change their decision afterwards. And while they seemingly couldn't determine a direct cause of the Sound, they had researched it enough to learn about it's effects on both the natural world and the Lifestream, and they even captured a terminus beast to study. Everything we hear from the citizens of Amaurot tells us that it was a slow but unstoppable spreading disaster, and what we see in the phantom city basically spans the time period from the first incident (with the unknown calamity befalling a city across the sea which some citizens argue over) to the time when the world was completely engulfed by it and Amaurot was in it's last days before they too were struck.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldStarz
We have no idea what people elsewhere were doing or even if Amaurot didn't reach out to anybody else. All we have is one instance at the very outbreak of the phenomena where two random citizens argue about the morality and practicality of helping a city somewhere that had been devastated by some unknown event.Quote:
For your second point, in what way is cooperating and coordinating with other people "being their keepers"? Do you think those who are in the direct path of catastrophe are just lounging around thinking "Well the planet is literally screaming at me to die, but this is fine," and not trying to make a plan of their own to, if not stop the Final Days, at least save the people who are still alive and help them survive this? You're not someone's keeper for showing up and actually contributing, something that Amaurot clearly wasn't interested and what Sharlayan is actively refusing to do.
I would argue that when the effects of the Sound are described to the player and the Amaurotine doing so describes it as "wresting from us control of our creation magicks" and "siphoning from our minds every dread impulse", that is telling us something: Either A, Amaurotines were actively going out into the world and trying to stop the calamity themselves, B, other people with creation magic were in contact with Amaurot and described it's effects to them and this Amaurotine considered them as one in the same and in it together, or C, some combination of the two.
Basically I'm saying that the notion Amaurot stood by and did nothing until they themselves were threatened is really not backed up by what we know of the situation.
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10-21-2021, 02:21 PMVeloran
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10-21-2021, 05:14 PMkaynideI like this route; I don’t think it will be a 1:1 carbon copy of Chrono Trigger, but I won’t be surprised by it being inspiration for EW.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyrerus
I expect some big twist; as in, it wouldn’t surprise me if first the ancients created the life stream or gave sentience to the planet itself as a step 1 we don’t know about, prior to Zodiark.
My wild speculation is:
1) Ancients created or woke up a thing which provided an overwhelming source of aether, possibly Hydaelyn itself. As in, the ancients created something to enhance their own creation abilities. It went out of control.
2) Zodiark was essentially meant to reign that in, but took too much aether.
3) Venat used to rework Hydaelyn to “cage” Zodiark.
And that now, Hydaelyn remains weak as long as her power is being spent caging Zodiark. Once Zodiark is destroyed, Hydaelyn will be free to pursue her original directive: creation. Furthermore, with the cure for tempering, it would seem this will become a major point later…especially since our character seems to be tempered by Hydaelyn.
..ok I’ll take off my tinfoil hat now… -
10-22-2021, 02:01 AMLaurontWe only know of one instance of them doing that, and that is Hades, and the wording is such that there were only some rare few with this affinity. If a war between Mhach and Amdapor failed to fully destroy the planet to such a degree, I doubt a few men like Hades doing so is going to result in the utter destruction of the star. Especially amongst a civilisation that by all accounts took observing and watching over the star carefully quite seriously, and in which many possessed the gift of being able to see the flow of aether. Could they write it such a way? Of course, but it'd be rather inconsistent with the short story...Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyrerus
I think it's more plausible that there was a crazed cult behind it (Telophoroi follows an ancient naming schema), as their flaws mostly seem to consist in those of a similar vein to angels (e.g. Lucifer and his jealousy) or the ancient Greek deities, than anything else, and their society was so structured as to mitigate that - so the possibility of some lunatics trying to rebel against it, or indeed existence itself, certainly exists.
As a general remark and not in relation to your comments specifically, quite often I think people run off looking for inklings of dystopia in all directions rather than simply taking it at face value that it was a society suited to their unique attributes and so in some ways, strange to human eyes. While I acknowledge it is entirely possible that the writing may reveal some secret dystopia, I can't say the theme would do much for me. There is enough there already (much as there is with the dragons and other such higher beings) without the need to belabour the point endlessly just to prop up (rhetorically) the existence of the sundered, IMO.
In any case, this is where I think a being such as Lavos (or Jenova etc) might enter the equation, with such a cult as the Telophoroi potentially in service to it.
Well said. I think the way Amaurot dealt with the situation was more along the lines of the Amaurotine arguing for them to take a hold of the situation, whereas Sharlayan's philosophy is more like that of the Amaurotine firebrand. Like you say, intervening in each and every situation is also not always a good idea, and also Sharlayan may be keeping its cards close to its chest - they quite literally were with AST. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Veloran
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10-22-2021, 06:37 AMMellowMinkEmet-Selch also literally tells us that he and many of the other Ascians were tempered by Zodiark, so he's mentally incapable of not being biased to some extent; lots of people seem to forget that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleretic
Of course, we could have been unknowingly tempered (not merely protected) by Hydaelyn at some point but in a more subtle manner, which would be pretty spooky. -
10-22-2021, 08:09 AMKizuyaKatogamiWhy would hydaelyn be subtle but not zodiark? Also i kind of question Zodiark’s tempering and how strong it is. We know based on the short story that even despite being tempered, the convocation was still at odds with each other and disagreeing regarding some topics.Quote:
Originally Posted by MellowMink
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10-22-2021, 10:42 AMYuella
I just played 3.2 with my alt. I don't think Minfilia / Hydaelyn lied.
She said "Light and Darkness were one but Darkness wanted more power, so I sundered the world". Darkness here does not refer to Zodiark but the Sound. "Zodiark wanted to be whole so the Ascians labored for the rejoinings". Zodiark and Darkness are two different beings.
The first statement, "Light and Darkness were one", in fact implies that Zodiark is Light or at least works for Light to counter Darkness in this case. So both Hydaelyn and Zodiark are light. Zodiark balanced the Darkness/Sound. That's why Elidibus, as the heart of Zodiark, cares so much about balance. Too much Darkness, Zodiark brings light. Too much Light, Zodiark brings Darkness. The Sound is a being of Darkness so Zodiark brings Light in this case. The problem was the Ancients wanted to sacrifice new lives to bring back their friends, threatening to break Darkness free of Zodiark so Hydaelyn sundered the star to prevent this. The Ascians thought Hydaelyn was working against Zodiark but they were wrong. Hydaelyn was working against Darkness and sundering Zodiark was just a mean to an end.
Notice that at the end of 5.55, Venat says "Darkness is coming" not "Zodiark is coming".
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10-22-2021, 04:04 PMClereticThe notion that we're tempered was debunked literally, like, three sentences after it was ever suggested. It is an argument with zero grounding beyond 'wouldn't it be neat if'*.Quote:
Originally Posted by MellowMink
I made a video that explicitly talks about this (as well as other details about the Blessing of Light), but in short: Ifrit, the second most temper-happy primal we've ever met (which i would say definitely qualifies him as a subject matter expert in a story like this), specifically shoots down the Amal'jaa priest's allegation that we're tempered--which is something with exceptional weight, given how rare it is that primals go against their summoners. And for the record, we already had the Blessing of Light and an awakened Echo at this point, because we already had a crystal of light. But if you consider Ifrit directly saying this is wrong to be an inapplicable source, it then has to be approached as an angle of 'how would the writers hint at this and what opportunities would they be taking'. And there's just no hints, despite ample potential setup: Emet-Selch was the guy that outright says Hydaelyn's a primal and that Zodiark tempered him, and he wouldn't have passed up an opportunity to shake our faith; Elidibus also has the subject of tempering come up around him and would have had every reason to announce it to save face; Fandaniel is wielding tempering as a weapon and had a perfect chance to screw with us.
On the other side of the morality scale, Y'shtola, Urianger, and G'raha Tia are all qualified experts in exactly these fields, and are all equipped with the knowledge that Hydaelyn is a primal and now knowledge of what the symptoms of tempering actually are. To a lesser but still significant extent, we also have Alisaie not just studying how to cure tempering, but specifically having the first cases be focused on an overabundance of light aether, which hypothetical Hydaelyn tempering would be. And not a single one of them says anything about this possibility, not even in 5.55 when every single one of them is in the same room directly discussing the WoL's relationship with Hydaelyn.
All of those characters on both sides of the story are set up as 'smart people whose beliefs and hypotheses should be considered in some way trustworthy and accurate', and yet none of them have even so much as hinted at the possibility that Hydaelyn has tempered us. Almost like the thing Ifrit said way back in 2.0 was accurate. And frankly, if you can't trust 'a direct statement denying this and a refusal to acknowledge the subject by every form of subject matter expert the game's had', I'm not actually sure how the game could tell you this isn't true. A twist like that needs some seeds sown before the sudden payoff, and they just don't exist.
*And incidentally, no, it wouldn't really be neat or spooky. Outside of the shock value, it either does nothing or hollows out the entire experience of the game thus far. And neither of those are fun or worth it.
Apologies for coming off a bit strong here, but as an enormous lorehound, this is a real bugbear of mine. It's not just a theory with no evidence, it's a theory with negative evidence, because it was specifically shut down. -
10-22-2021, 04:24 PMTheodric
I'm reminded of a certain thread here a while back where someone proposed, before Shadowbringers was even announced, that Hydaelyn could perhaps be a Primal and it was shot down hard by some of the regular posters here.
It was presented as being impossible. It was presented that Hydaelyn couldn't be anything other than a benevolent mother goddess.
I don't personally think that it can be explicitly ruled out that the Warrior of Light is, in fact, not Tempered by Hydaelyn. Especially now that the rules of Tempering have changed considerably over the years as new lore has come to be revealed. Even if we're being generous, there's been some rather drastic retcons in order to make certain things fit.
I'd also note, the aversion to Hydaelyn having Tempered the Warrior of Light is a completely subjective element. I wouldn't be bothered by it, personally - and I'm sure many others would feel the same way.
I was rather lukewarm at first on the idea of Garlemald being yet another Ascian creation simply because I figured it'd be more interesting if it were allowed to be its own thing entirely separate from the Ascian storyline. I figured that it robbed the agency from the Garleans to make their own decisions and endure the consequences that came with them. Yet it is what it is and it worked in regards to pushing many of the existing major story arcs to their approaching conclusion.
Hydaelyn may or may not have Tempered the Warrior of Light but if it's what the writers want to do then it's what they're going to do.
Don't get me wrong, I can understand why some people may feel strongly about the matter but as a pretty major lore enthusiast myself, I can't help but look at the inclusion of the likes of the Nier Automata crossover raid and note that the game is taking a very different approach to storytelling than it used to. A lot of people - myself included - like to look back at lore established during the days of 1.0 and 2.0 but so much of it has been changed over time as new story beats have been explored that I think it's wise to keep an open mind on many fronts. -
10-22-2021, 05:06 PMVyrerusIt actually doesn't have any negative evidence though. Ifrit's line is in regards to the Echo. Which he is right about, but he may just not be able to perceive Hydaelyn's tempering (consider that most of the world doesn't know that Hydaelyn is just a primal). It's also worth noting that Ifrit telling his priest how it is isn't all that drastic a thing, because the priest still worships Ifrit as god. The Primals give commands out to their followers and the followers obey often. They're not completely slaves to their summoner's will. Not really sure where you've got that idea from, exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleretic
As for why other villains or our allies haven't given many big hints or dropped the bomb yet... I imagine if the WoL being tempered is a thing, it's something that's going to be a minor inconvenience at worst, which will be overhyped by the ally cast. The villains I imagine don't care so much, because it doesn't change much for their conflict with us.
But anyway, I imagine the Scions wouldn't want to give voice to the possibility because it'd be too painful a reality for them to realize. Imagine the greatest hero you know, the person you respect above all others... is that way through primal compulsion, at least partially. Would they have been the hero they are now without the compulsion? Have we been accepting a necessary evil as yet another burden? In this manner you could say that Y'shtola asking about your relationship with Hydaelyn as a seed or hint to start thinking about whether you are/were Tempered to Hydaelyn. You can also take the cave painting scene that shows Hydaelyn colored individuals beneath her, possibly representing her followers as tempered as a hint too.
Also other things in this post that I'm going to nitpick... The first cases of actual Tempering that were cured were Earth aspected aether(still inclined towards stasis but whatever). The light aspected Sineater turning sickness was the proving ground because it was similar to Tempering. It wasn't Tempering. And the symptoms to Tempering vary depending on the Tempered individuals length of being tempered, how strong their soul is, what elemental aspect it's inclined towards, what race they are(Sylphs turned purple, yo), and who tempered them. I don't think we actually have any bonafide know it alls, though our Scion Accomplices are still the authorities in the field.
All I'm really getting at though, is that it could still go either way. There's enough wiggle room if they want to pull it off. Won't make or break the story for me, and I doubt it'd be a surprise to many people if it were the case. I'm sure if they did reveal the WoL to be Tempered, it would merely be for making the Scions lament how much of a burden we face in holding the world on our shoulders, and how they'll have to rectify that someday in someway, somehow. uwu boohoo -
10-22-2021, 05:55 PMkaynide
Re:Tempering
It might also be a problem if the source of a lot of our power (eg the Echo) was this tempering. To untemper the WoL would free us, but at what cost? Would we no longer be Superman? Can the world/Scions afford that loss?
If this is a case of tempering, I see it more of a Bioshock “Could you kindly” kind of reveal.. because up until now the WoL has not actual had any free will at all regarding the events of the main story with exception of what… the job you play and free company you join?
Every choice we have made has had no impact on the story at large..and while out of game that’s just because it’s an mmo and easier to write, it could easily become a plot twist where the WoL could not refuse requests for help. -
10-22-2021, 06:36 PMClereticThe Echo is also not the same as the Blessing of Light is not the same as tempering. We know exactly what the Echo is now, remember--it's the faint remnant (the 'echo', if you will) of an Ancient soul's capabilities, and any perceived connection to Hydaelyn was confirmed to just be Echo-havers mistaking correlation for causation because of hearing Hydaelyn's words immediately on awakening. Us losing the Blessing of Light (which as you may recall, we did, and then still fought a primal or two before starting to regain it) does nothing to the Echo, but us losing the Echo (if such a thing is even possible) would be a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by kaynide
But, I will point out for people really hankering for a 'tempered by Hydaelyn' story for some reason: We know that the Echo doesn't grant immunity to tempering, at any strength, just resistance. Remember that even the Unsundered were on some level tempered by Zodiark. So while all the evidence is saying that we are not currently tempered by Hydaelyn... all of the evidence also says that there's nothing stopping us from getting tempered by Hydaelyn. Even by mistake; remember that Ramuh didn't want to temper by proximity, and still did. If we're going into some level of physical proximity to The Big Girl, then suddenly the notion of us getting tempered is all too concerningly present.
...although even then, I would say that the more narratively pressing possibility on that subject is Zodiark doing it. We have no evidence that we'll be punching out Hydaelyn, but we know he's in the story's crosshairs. -
10-22-2021, 10:04 PMKizuyaKatogamiPretty sure they’re both in the crosshairs lmao. They’ve been heavily empathizing the end of primals being near, they’re both primals. We know Zodiark can temper, there’s no reason why Hydaelyn wouldn’t be able to as well and there’s already hints of both minfilia and ardbert being tempered. Both primals will most likely be kicking the bucket in EW, much to some peoples distaste i’m sure but in the end she is just a primal. Doesn’t make much sense of Zodiark to have been able to temper us tbh seeing as he’s been dormant for so long and i don’t see them doing some last minute tempering…Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleretic
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10-22-2021, 10:15 PMCleretic...can you provide those hints? Because I am not aware of those 'hints', and this is the sort of thing I end up knowing about.Quote:
Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami
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10-23-2021, 03:44 AMRyuDragnier
If the WoL is tempered, it's likely on the lines of very light tempering. Enough to shield us, but nothing more. Assuming Hydaelyn and Venat were fully aware of who our soul belonged to from the beginning, they wouldn't need to do any kind of heavy tempering, as we'd be driven to help people as we did in the past simply from being us.
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10-23-2021, 05:19 AMMikkoAkureI don't think we are tempered, based on Hydalelyn's lyrics in Answers promoting free will. As well as that, Ifrit himself says we are not. Though it could still be possible that the level of tempering is beyond his comprehension.Quote:
Originally Posted by RyuDragnier
Temuggzoh: "Impossible! By what sorcery do you resist my master's will!? Could it be...? Your soul already belongs to another!? Yes, that is the only explanation!"
Ifrit: " Forsooth, thy frail mortal frame can serve as vessel to the blessing of but One. Yet I smell not the taint of another upon thee... The truth of thine allegiance waxeth clear─thou art of the godless blessed's number. The Paragons warned of thine abhorrent kind. Thine existence is not to be suffered." -
10-23-2021, 03:46 PMkaynide
The Ifrit quote comes up often as evidence for us not being tempered, but imho it’s not clear.
He simply says we don’t have the taint of another (something) on us. He then explicitly says we are part of a “godless but still blessed” group. He then says the “paragons” warned of our like.
Assuming the paragons are the Ascians, why doesn’t Ifrit recognize THEY are tempered? He doesn’t call them thralls or otherwise tainted. The word “paragons” is used.
Either he isn’t able to detect their tempering or (more likely) the writing hadn’t thought that far ahead. (That is, perhaps at this point likely Hydaelyn and Zodiark were not written as primals)
This leaves a discrepancy.
While I would agree the WoL is probably not tempered, I’m not sure this is the evidence for or against it.
I would also argue that the primals don’t have any actual self-created will. Their will is purely that of those who summoned them. Like, when Ga Bu summoned titan, it was just full of rage, even speaking as Ga Bu would. This would suggest they aren’t all knowing, and probably only know what their summoner does.
That is to say, Ifrit would only know “hey I couldn’t temper you, and you seem to be acting of your own free will...and those paragon guys said people like you would come along..they said you were that godless blessed group”. Not that he could actual detect tempering or not. -
10-23-2021, 04:15 PMClereticI actually think there's two other possibilities here, because we have to take into account that Ifrit isn't saying any of that for our benefit. He's talking to us, but it's more at us; the dialogue is more between him and the priest, just with the pretense of them both yelling at us. So, two other possibilities arise:Quote:
Originally Posted by kaynide
A: It's already something the Amal'jaa and Ifrit know and have hashed out; they don't actually need to talk further about it. Hell, knowing how temper-happy Ifrit is, it's entirely plausible they learned the 'only explanation' they have because they tried to do the 'immediately turn on the shady guys with the weapon they gave you' trick, and it didn't work because the Ascians are already tempered.
Or B: Maybe Ifrit just doesn't care. I may consider Ifrit an expert on tempering, but that doesn't mean he's a deep intellectual who raises hypotheticals, he's clearly more invested in the 'now'. They aren't trying to temper the Ascians at that moment in that scene; they're trying to temper us.
EDIT: But it should be clarified that, as Mikko posted above, Ifrit does rely on his senses to come to the conclusion we aren't tempered. So it's not deduction based on what they were told, it's actually a tangible thing he can detect, which gives it more weight. -
10-23-2021, 06:07 PMTheodricAgreed. It really can go either way as needed for the writers to tell the story that they want to tell.Quote:
Originally Posted by kaynide
The Heaven's Ward Knights were Tempered but it wasn't immediately apparent and I believe that a recent interview clarified that they were Tempered subtly in an effort to not draw suspicion. Which makes sense, since it aligns with what we've seen elsewhere with the likes of Tiamat. Another example of a character that turned out to be Tempered but had enough self control to make decisions entirely of her own free will.
Which, again, brings us back to the matter of there being various degrees of Tempering. Tiamat worked with Estinien and the Scions to remove her Tempering, which is in itself proof that some of those who are Tempered can indeed operate in a way that allows for decisions to be made that do not necessarily align with what the Primal who Tempered them desired.
I rather suspect that it isn't a coincidence that the same beings displaying the most free will on that front just so happen to have more powerful souls in general. Tiamat and Emet-Selch being the two most prominent example of characters who are Tempered but also shown to go against the grain on many fronts. Now, given that the Warrior of Light himself happens to to have a particularly prominent and powerful soul... -
10-23-2021, 06:55 PMClereticTiamat gives an actual description of being tempered, remember, because she doesn't know that's what it is. And while I can't quote it verbatim (that's one of the few tempering-focused quotes I don't have immediately recorded and on hand), it's essentially that there is a tangible, persistent voice that she can push out of mind with focus. Which is pretty in line with how Ga Bu described his own experience of being fully tempered, which gives us a general idea of how it feels; a strong voice commanding you, all the time. Sometimes it's strong enough to override everything; other times, either by the tempering being willingly weak or the individual themselves being very strong, it's possible to act independently but impossible to entirely silence the influence. If someone is screaming 'Buy McDonald's' at you all hours of the day, you'll never completely drown out the idea that, hey, you kinda do want a Big Mac.Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodric
So, now that we have an idea of what tempering can feel like, we can compare it to the WoL's own experience with Hydaelyn. And to a degree, it almost holds up; do we know that Hydaelyn's messages are appreciably different than, say, Titan's? She's likely nowhere near as forceful, her words are very soft.
But what dissuades me about that angle is the persistence. From Tiamat and Ga Bu's words, the influence of their tempering never stops, so they either have to find refuge from it (in Ga Bu's case) or put every moment of time into drowning it out (in Tiamat's). We don't have that--and in fact, we don't have that to such an extent that we actually had to go contact her directly. Hydaelyn stays silent for expansions at a time, to a degree where that's actually some form of plot point. Meanwhile, Ga Bu was in that state while the primal that tempered him was dead (as is Tiamat if you've done Coils), so tempering is clearly more of a strong passive affliction rather than a weak active connection like the WoL has with Hydaelyn.
And while this isn't exactly strong and decisive evidence, Hydaelyn certainly seems a lot more helpful to her chosen than primals are to their tempered; she's helped everyone with the Blessing of Light we know of at least once, while most tempered are lucky to be horribly mutilated into sea monsters by theirs (R.I.P. Captain Madison). That might be personal demeanor more than anything, though.
So, yeah, I still don't buy it. The writers would have to hint at something this big to not slap us with it out of nowhere, and any 'hint' is at best tenuous, while actual evidence is speaking more strongly against it. EDIT: Hell, it's not even really that useful to compare it to 'Hydaelyn and Zodiark are primals', because that ultimately changes very little about our relationship to either of them (and personally I always suspected Zodiark was one anyway) while 'the WoL's been tempered this whole time' would change rather a lot. ...also I'm pretty sure we actually had the 'they're primals' info drop as part of the Shadowbringers leadup, because I remember making jokes about it, so if they were making a pull like that, we'd have heard it by now. -
10-23-2021, 11:33 PMkaynide
@Cleretic, a littttle off topic, but you're probably the guy to ask:
Is there any info on SELF tempering? Like Shiva- by all accounts she is the primal itself..but was she ever in any way tempered by her own ideals? I think not, but like I said- you're probably the one who knows.
King Thordan is possibly an easier character to sort out in this..but Shiva.. weird. She was not only a primal, but also had a light crystal/Hydaelyn's blessings. There seemed to be some kind of limit to her ability to either control or become Shiva.
Secondly, and more for anyone... is there evidence that Primals are actual individual entities? That is to say, if group A summoned Ifrit, could another group summon an entirely different Ifrit? (We're kind of seeing that with the Lunar variants)
Or- the Titan we fought originally was obviously the will of the Kobolds, but the Titan we fought when Ga bu's parents were kiilled was a Titan of Ga Bu's will/anger. To me, these are entirely different entities.
If so...(purely theoretically) a more benevolent or even controllable Garuda/Titan/whatever might be possible. She wouldn't carry a grudge as this Garuda is simply not the Garuda we defeated. The new Garuda might not even have any memories of us (Assuming we killed all Ixal present in the first summoning). The fact that a summoner can create Egi (and soon actual full on Garuda/Titan/Ifrit) seems to suggest that these are not actual individuals, but just "will made manafest".. more like a computer program or robot than creature. -
10-24-2021, 12:10 AMLayte_Aeon
Currently we have 3 examples of individuals summoning primals into themselves (I'm not including the Lucavi as they are a different beast altogether): Ysale with Shiva, Archbishop Thordan with King THordan and Yotsuyu with Tsukiyomi.
Ysale had the echo and the blessing of light, but according to Hraesvelgr, had deluded herself into thinking she was Shiva reborn instead of manifesting her vison of Shiva.
Archbishop Thordan, so far as we know did not have the echo, yet summoned Thordan within himself, seemingly multiple times to temper the Heaven's Ward. Despite this no one noticed anything out of the ordinary with him. While the Heaven's Ward could be excused as they were only lightly tempered, calling a Primal into oneself seems like it would do more than lightly singe one's nature.
Much the same could be said of Yotsuyu. She summoned Tsukuyomi into herself with a few chests of crystals and a hand mirror. Like Thordan she seemed to not have the echo. Although there is something Tsukuyomi did that no other primal has done: Draw strength not from faith or crystals, but from her summoners memories of suffering. Since a part of tempering is the dampening of a sense of self it seems peculiar that a primal can draw from something that requires a strong sense of self.
Of course it could also be that becoming a primal even once without the echo changes one to a point where the question of tempering is meaningless. I mean Ifrit can temper, does that mean he is tempered to himself? -
10-24-2021, 12:19 AMMikkoAkureShiva: Ysayle was able to summon Shiva unto herself due to having the Echo. Similar to how Zenos combined himself with Shinryu using the Resonant.Quote:
Originally Posted by kaynide
Other versions of Primals: In an interview with Koji Fox, he described that if belief in the original being Ifrit slowly diverged over time in two separate populations, each could still summon their own version of Ifrit that has different personalities and memories with both still being "Ifrit". Similarly, Lahabrea attempts to get a group of Ala Mhigans to summon Rhalgr, a god theorized to come from a similar source as Ramuh.
Quote:
Anwyll: You mentioned on the forums that the summoning of Bahamut reassembled a specific entity that was amongst the Lifestream. Since something specific is answering the beacon of prayer, is that why, once captured (a la the Ultima Weapon, for example), another copy cannot be summoned?
Koji Fox: Yes. Yes! But as I mentioned with the Phoenix, depending on the culture, there’s a different perception of what it was. Was it a god? Was it a savior? Was it evil? Let’s use Ifrit as an example, though I’m not saying this is really the case with him. The Amalj’aa look at him as an angry god that wants to purify the land with his flames. When they summon him, they pray to that type of Ifrit, and it forms. Say, in the New World, thousands of miles away, there is also the legend of Ifrit, but in the thousands of years since that original seed of myth, he’s grown into a very benevolent god that… gives flowers to children and is the fire that roasts your marshmallows… that’s a different essence, even though it’s the same Ifrit. Those two could exist simultaneously. But if Amalj’aa summon one Ifrit and some other Amalj’aa who worship the same Ifrit try to do the same thing, they could not.
In regards to what you said before regarding Asians and Ifrit, I don't see a discrepancy. The Ascians are the beings who taught the Amalja'a how to summon Ifrit and are on a completely different level from a random adventurer brought as tribute who is immune to tempering. The Ascians brought Ifrit into existence, they wouldn't be considered thrall-bait to him and wouldn't be compared to us.
Also, primals do have comprehension beyond their summoners. In the quote I provided above, Ifrit himself disagrees with his summoner. We also have Ramuh, who goes against his summoner's wishes and refuses to enthrall anyone beyond the initial summoners, doesn't cause a ruckus like the other primals, and understands that he's a detriment to the planet.
We also have Ajora, who is a full blown Warrior of Light who goes against Hydaelyn's wishes and performs a summoning so powerful it destroys a nation and threatens to corrupt Hydaelyn herself. I'd find it hard to believe that someone who's tempered would be able to do such a thing. -
10-24-2021, 12:38 AMClereticFirst of all, I'm a girl, but to the best of my knowledge on your questions!Quote:
Originally Posted by kaynide
On self-tempering: Ysayle had the Echo, and so was not tempered by channeling Shiva; even if this wasn't explicitly stated at some point in 2.x or Heavensward, it was brought up directly in Save the Queen--as well as the danger that if she didn't, she'd get tempered for trying. So reasonably speaking, yeah, that happens if you channel a primal, just as summoning a primal the normal way tempers the summoners.
As for examples, though... well, technically we have two: Archbishop Thordan channeling King Thordan, and Yotsuyu channeling Tsukuyomi. But both of those are a little different:- The main struggle with Archbishop Thordan is that we likely never met him before he first performed the summon. So while reasonably he probably was tempered, it's hard to say how much of an effect it had, because we lack a baseline. He certainly seems very self-motivated, but he's also got huge delusions of grandeur and a belief in his divine rite to rule; and it's actually hard to say how much of that is himself, and how much of that came from him channeling a primal of the forefather that he believed had a divine rite to rule. But at the same time, we have to reason that Thordan performed that first summoning somewhat recently before we turn up in Ishgard, because the Ascians themselves only turned their attention to it at some point in 2.x. Since nobody mentions a change in behavior, we can reasonably believe either he was lightly tempered (as he'd lightly temper the Heavensward), or that he just didn't change much afterward.
- And Yotsuyu didn't really summon Tsukuyomi with any external image or intention at all, and it shows; there isn't anything else going on in her fight, it's basically 'Yotsuyu's Big Villain Number' with some extra lunar aesthetic. If she was tempered by anything... it might have just been her own mind and mental state. Which for her might've meant she was angry and depressed for the rest of her life (which turned out to be fairly short), but could've been an angle that worked if done by someone like, say, Ilberd.
On alternate summonings: As Mikko has said, Koji said at one point that while you can only summon one of a primal at a time, you could diverge hard enough that two different versions of Ifrit could exist simultaneously. I actually think it's worth saying, though, that it's not clear if this is a metaphysical thing or a more psychological thing. Is it that there's only one 'Ifrit Soul' until things get too wildly different, or is it that a summoner reasonably can't summon a version of Ifrit similar to one that's already around, because... well, they can't fully believe in their One True Ifrit enough to summon right now, because he looks the same as the other tribe's Ifrit and he's right over there.
And we've actually seen very tangibly different primals: Remember Double-Headed Leviathan, ATV Titan, and all their friends. So we know that part is true, it's just that nobody's really gotten too rigorous and crazy with it. We also couldn't really tell if in that case they shared memories with their Source counterparts, because they never showed any indication of it, although they all seemed to act about the same.
EDIT: Egis, for the record, aren't really related to the primal soul-wise. Instead that's essentially the summoner making a miniature replica of an aetheric signature that they've come into contact with before. It's like how, if you made a miniature figure of Chris Hemsworth, there's no real illusion that it's in any way connected to the literal, 'real' Chris Hemsworth, but it also cannot possibly exist in this form without some level of contact and familiarity with Chris Hemsworth. -
10-24-2021, 02:12 AMYuella
Ok, I think I figured it out and if I'm wrong I'm going to unsub permanently and uninstall FFXIV from my laptop (I will post videos of me uninstalling FFXIV).
Here it goes:
Hydaelyn was not summoned to shackle Zodiark. She was summoned to shackle Darkness / The Sound. In order to shackle Darkness she needed to sunder the star and Zodiark getting sundered is just part of the package. An unfortunately necessary side effect. Whenever Minfilia (in 3.2 after The Anti Tower) and Venat (in 5.2 after Anemnesis Anyder and again at the final cutscene of 5.55) talked about Darkness, they were not refering to Zodiark. They were refering to the Sound. Note that Venat said "Darkness comes", not "Zodiark comes".
https://i.ibb.co/v3xDX6S/FinalCS.png
Here's the proof:
First, Venat's group acknowledged that Zodiark was useful to stop the Sound. However, they recognized that this was not a permanent solution. The Sound will eventually defeat Zodiark and destroy the world. They tried to warn the convocation but were ignored.
https://i.ibb.co/9qtZscD/Proof1.png
This was also mentioned by Minfilia in the Anti Tower.
https://i.ibb.co/gD1Xb07/Proof2.png
Note that she said "Darkness coveted power", not "Zodiark coveted power". But what about the first statement in that pic? Light and Dark did once dwell as one? I believe Light here actually refers to Zodiark! Zodiark was summoned to balance the Sound! Since the Sound was Darkness, Zodiark was Light! That's why Elidibus, as the heart of Zodiark, cares so much about balance. Because the essence of Zodiark is to balance Light and Darkness. And that's why Elidibus appeared as the Warrior of Light, because Zodiark was a being of Light! Unfortunately, Darkness is winning the battle and Zodiark is losing, which Venat's group realized.
What about when she said "I was forced to banish Him unto the distant heavens". Him here can refer to either the Sound of Zodiark but I believe it's Zodiark. She was forced to banish Him as a side effect of the sundering. She sundered the star to prevent Darkness / the Sound from getting stronger and unfortunately, Zodiark has to be sundered as well. She was forced to do it.
And note her face expression when she said Zodiark wanted to become whole and that the Ascians are working tirelessly to achieve this. It's an expression of sadness, not anger. She understood why the Ascians want to do it but she could not allow it because that means the Sound would be a threat once again.
https://i.ibb.co/5T4333W/Hydaelyn-sad.png
Everytime a rejoining happens, Darkness / the Sound gets stronger. Note that she said "Darkness grown stronger" not "Zodiark grown stronger"
https://i.ibb.co/WVZkv5Z/Minfilia5.png
(continues below) -
10-24-2021, 02:12 AMYuella
This is echoed by Venat's group. They had no hate towards the convocation. They knew the convocation wanted to save the star. It's just that the convocation's method was not a permanent solution. They knew summoning Hydaelyn would anger the convocation
https://i.ibb.co/m8j8D8n/Proof3.png
Unfortunately they had to do it. They summoned a SECOND Light Primal, Hydaelyn, as a permanent solution (as long as the rejoinings don't happen). Note again that they said "keep the Darkness in check" not "keep Zodiark in check"
https://i.ibb.co/9YN8NJ5/Venat6.png
Unfortunately we know now that it's also not permanent because the Ascians did the rejoinings. Maybe Azem foresaw this? That's why he didn't join Venat's group. Azem knew his friend Emet-Selch would try to bring Zodiark whole again. So I believe in Endwalker we will LET Zodiark and the Sound come back just so we can defeat the Sound. What is the Sound? I believe it's Chaos, since Elidibus took the form of FF1's Warrior of Light. (this one is not part of the bet. I don't know what form the Sound will take. I'm just guessing it's Chaos).
What about Emet-Selch's revelation in Qitana Ravel? Emet was an unreliable narrator. He THOUGHT Hydaelyn was summoned to shackle Zodiark. The painter of the paintings in the cave was also an unreliable narrator. Y'shtola said "this sanctuary was built to preserve the wisdom of the ancients." The ancients who were part of Zodiark summoners.
https://i.ibb.co/fkhxvxn/Y-shtola.png
What about Fandaniel? For some reason, he wants to die. Since the ancients were immortal, he could not die from old age. There's one way to die though: The Sound. He would love for the Sound to destroy the star so he could die. He either caused the Sound or let the Sound comes, we don't know. All we know is he's on the side of the Sound. He also wanted the rejoining to happen but not to bring back Zodiark. He wanted to bring back the Sound. But now he did not need the rejoinings anymore because for some reason the Sound is coming without the need for further rejoinings. Maybe because Elidibus dies and Zodiark dies with him? I believe Zodiark still has a role to play. Maybe we need Zodiark to be summoned again, if only to keep the Sound in check so we can destroy it.
What about Zenos? I still believe Zenos is Hythlodaeus (this is not part of the bet) and therefore he's on Zodiark's side. Maybe he will become Zodiark's new heart and fight alongside us in the final battle against the Sound. And maybe we will become Hydaelyn's new heart. "My Enemy, My Friend". Zodiark and Hydaelyn are frenemies. Hydaelyn had to sunder Zodiark but they're on the same side against the Sound. -
10-24-2021, 08:19 AMKatie_Kitty
Regarding the question of the WoL being tempered or not, it's my belief that Hydaelyn doesn't even have the power to temper. Her command is to "Hear, Feel, Think." That's the opposite of tempering.
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10-24-2021, 11:09 AMClereticIncidentally, if we're delving into full-power theorizing, my own theory on this one:Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuella
This isn't Venat.
I don't know who it is, but it's in some form an impersonation or a very coincidental mirror; something to play on the fact we immediately think it's Venat rather than dismissing the notion.
Mainly I think this because it's completely unlike Hydaelyn's M.O. so far. Hydaelyn largely keeps to herself unless she absolutely has to, and always appears either in the guise of Minfilia or as a disembodied voice. Venat specifically never did the Elidibus thing of manifesting externally from Hydaelyn (because it's not actually a very good idea). This is at odds with how she's behaved in the entire game thus far.
Whoever this is, it's not Venat, but we're meant to assume it is. -
10-24-2021, 11:29 AMYuella
Oh, I forgot to add Hythlodaeus' account. Hythlodaeus said Hydaelyn was summoned because the dissidents didn't want to sacrifice the new lives. I think he's also an unreliable narrator because he was created by Emet-Selch. Emet thought the dissidents opposed the sacrifice of new lives. This is the stray thought that made Hythlodaeus slightly aware.
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10-24-2021, 02:03 PMRyuDragnierThen there's only one person I can think of who it could be. The Dreamer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleretic
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10-24-2021, 02:14 PMClereticSomething I will point out about the notion of 'Hythlodaeus said they wanted to protect life, but Venat's crew didn't' is to remember the context where we saw both of those.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuella
Hythlodaeus was directly speaking to us, who he recognized as someone new to the whole environment, and explaining everything we needed to know from his perspective. It's not an omniscient perspective, but it's one we're largely meant to trust as accurate (although personally I don't trust the guy's politics).
We saw Venat's crew from a holographic recording of an internal meeting--and not even the entire meeting. It's actually completely reasonable that they wouldn't have also mentioned the preservation of new life, because everyone in that room was already completely on board. I've been in those sorts of political meetings, and I can tell you right now, the subject of the environment comes up very little in an environmentalist group's internal meetings. Because unless there's new information somehow, everyone's already on the same page. Which holds as a parallel with how we as an audience get the information; we, too, have already been told that Hydaelyn's crew wanted to preserve new life, so it doesn't need to be re-established. -
10-24-2021, 09:55 PMKageTokageEverything we know thus far is suggesting that the "dreamer" is Anima and it being described as a being of pure agony further suggests it's most likely just a primal summoned through circumstances similar to Shinryu; that is, an extremely powerful catalyst and tons of aether and emotion from sacrifices knowing or otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by RyuDragnier
With all the fighting going on in the capital and the different Garlean factions fervently desiring to perpetuate Garlemald in their own way, the former may have been all that was needed to kickstart a summoning ritual. -
10-24-2021, 10:41 PMMikkoAkureI think it would be weirder to assume she isn’t, considering they just spent a few patches talking about Venat and showing the truth of Elidibus and then at the beginning of the end, a glowing white-robed woman only we can see, holding an Amaurotine mask, and wearing a hairstyle reminiscent of Minfilia’s braids appears to us at Silvertear Lake, a location heavily linked to the Lifestream and Hydaelyn herself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleretic
She tells us that Darkness comes and that it’s up to us to save the Star, in between scenes of both us and Zenos looking at the Moon, where Zodiark is kept.
Venat is also the only ancient woman we know who isn’t an Ascian. There are some clues in the artwork as well that shows her with the same swirly lines around her like the Mothercrystal. Why would the same woman be in both the end cutscene of Shadowbringers as well as the topmost featured character of the Endwalker artwork after all of this setup and the promise that we would hear the tale of the Shattering from Hydaelyn’s point of view if she’s not Venat?
Narratively, it doesn’t make much sense for her to be anyone else unless they’re going to have some stupid twist somewhere, which I wouldn’t put past them but I think is unlikely. -
10-25-2021, 12:01 AMClereticWhat's pointing at that being Anima, if 'everything' is saying that? Because all I really know we have on Anima is 'she's coming and she's angry', which doesn't tell us much (and in fact, that second part isn't even news when talking about Anima). There's nothing to really relate her to being 'the dreamer', which we also know very little about, beyond 'presumably sleeping'.Quote:
Originally Posted by KageTokage
Personally I've been assuming 'the dreamer' is just a poetic term Zenos and possibly Fantastic Daniel are using to refer to Zodiark. Who's not easily described with English terminology in his current state, but yeah, I wouldn't deny the reading of 'sleeping'. -
10-25-2021, 12:44 AMRyuDragnierWell what does The Dreamer look like prior to being Anima? If we assume it was an individual turned into Anima much like how Ysayle, Vauthry, Yotsuyu, and basically any one of those who used the auracite in the Ivalice and Save the Queen questlines were transformed, then they have an actual mortal form. Either this is Venat, or this is the actual mortal manifestation of The Dreamer warning us in advance (assuming it isn't both at the same time). There is no way in hell that this is not one of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by KageTokage
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10-25-2021, 04:18 AMGoldStarzYou're slightly mistaken, the mirror itself was an object of faith. It had a centuries of prayer from the Kojin poured into it which is what gives it the power to summon primals, much like Susano was summoned when no one was actively praying for him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Layte_Aeon
Well a couple things to keep in mind: we know that some Primals can't help tempering other if their aether/willpower/word of the day is strong enough. Also, we know that the echo isn't enough to protect from a strong enough force from tempering you because the Convocation were tempered and they had the fullest extent of the Echo. So it's not absurd to say that she tempers you to have your own free will so that you're immune to even Zodiark's ability to temper.Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty
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10-25-2021, 04:38 AMAlenoreWhy would you assume it's that kind of summoning? For all we know, Anima may as well be a creature from the Final Days, one of the things locked in Pandaemonium, or something else altogether.Quote:
Originally Posted by RyuDragnier
It's not mentionned to be a primal, nor a god, or a being willed into existence, as far as I know.
"The Dreamer" can refer to a lot of people. Interesting fact: in French, "The Dreamer" is mentioned to be male, and is said to want to stay asleep.
Which would excludes Venat herself, and that apparition in Silvertear. -
10-25-2021, 05:48 AMKatie_KittyQuote:
Originally Posted by GoldStarz
Pretty much how I see it. I wouldn't call it another form of tempering personally, but I always thought it would make sense if Hydaelyn was summoned expressly with the power to protect against or reverse tempering. If Venat's crew saw that the convocation was now in thrall to the god of their own creation, then it would make sense that their answer to Zodiark would be a primal capable of protecting others against his influence. -
10-25-2021, 08:45 AMVeloranA few issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuella
First, "Darkness" and "Zodiark" are used interchangeably just as "Light" and "Hydaelyn" often are. In the conversation with Word Minfilia she continually refers to the Ascians and Zodiark in the same context as "Darkness", and says that both Light and Darkness (IE herself and Zodiark) did once dwell as one. So if Hydaelyn/Zodiark are the "Light" there's no explanation for them being one with the Sound, nor an explanation for Venat saying they'll summon the "Light" if Zodiark already existed. And of course Zodiark was aspected astrally, not towards the Light. And the Sound "coveting power" hardly makes sense given it was simply reducing the entire planet to a lifeless husk.
It should further go without saying that the "Darkness" in that conversation being recontextualized as the Sound would be a drastic change to the point of retcon.
On the topic of tempering, I think it's very likely that WoL is indeed tempered. With what we know now, having one's aether attuned to that of a primal certainly does sound like the Blessing of Light, which connects WoL to Hydaelyn. And Hydaelyn's interactions with Minfilia and Ardbert, with the former being convinced of her godhood and the latter being forced to stop in his tracks with a wave of her hand, is a bit telling. -
10-25-2021, 09:54 AMGerielExactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Veloran
Minfilia (Word of the Mother) basically tells you that the Blessing of Light is just a nice way of saying 'tempered minion'.
"As the Ascians must serve as instruments of Zodiark's will, so too must others carry out the will of Hydaelyn." -
10-25-2021, 10:19 AMMikkoAkureThe problem with the theory that the Blessing is tempering is that Midgardsormr completely removes our Blessing of Light in the run-up to Heavensward. If the Blessing is tempering, then how was he able to do that and why does he not even bring up tempering at all? How did we not see that we were tempered after we had the Blessing removed?Quote:
Originally Posted by Veloran
Then you also have the Warriors of Darkness and Cylva who all had Blessings of Light and all joined the Ascians to fight against Hydaelyn, in addition to Saint Ajora who also had the Blessing and summoned an extremely evil entity to the planet that nuked a whole city and threatened to corrupt Hydaelyn herself.
People have brought up Minfilia stopping Ardbert before in these forums and that's a very weak argument for his being tempered when all that happens is that she stops him so she can explain herself to him and then he gives up. If he were tempered, then she wouldn't explain herself after.
As for Minfilia, she doesn't even have the Blessing of Light, so you can't really consider her actions to be a result of being tempered. Hydaleyn does indeed call out to her and takes advantage of her faith and that's a super dick move, but I don't think that's a part of her "tempering". Having a belief in a god doesn't necessarily equal tempering. All of the beastmen and the Ala Mhigans had beliefs in their own gods before they summoned them as primals or at least attempted to.
Then you have all of the Scions and Midgardsormr, none of whom have the Echo or the Blessing and do more to protect Hydaelyn and promote her than we ever do.
If we're indeed tempered, then we are given so much free will that we are able to take action against Hydaelyn and at that point may as well not be tempered to begin with so it doesn't even matter.