Openly admitting to ignoring the players

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Originally Posted by Truen

Look, on some level I agree--shortbus people do matter, but let's not pretend there isn't a happy medium between 1-button spam and something closer to the dynamic and fun design we had in 4.0.

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What I'd love to see is options. I have nothing against "Very Easy" but at least allow me to choose "Hard" as well when going into an MSQ battle etc.

I do everything min ilvl if I can get away with it and the trials are mad fun. Dungeons on the other hand... I'm glad they stopped giving us three per patch.

And one thing in XI hated was macros. Gear swapping for every ability. No, thanks.

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Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

You guys are so focused on making the game harder for you when it’s not about you. It’s about the players who don’t want to treat this like a job and still do optimal dps with not extreme amounts of effort

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There's a middle ground between Ultimate level difficulty and "do you have a pulse?" Currently, most content can be easily handled by a single healer. And even they would still primarily spam their nuke. The outgoing damage is simply far, far too low.

It isn't about making the game harder but putting a greater emphasis on healing. Players who choose to play healer either want to, ya know, heal or have a more robust DPS rotation so they at least have something engaging to focus on.

Does anybody else find it extremely weird that Miasma 2 just doesn't exist in the game for even a single job now? We jump from 1 to 3, and there's nothing between those...

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Originally Posted by BrokentoothMarch

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this happened to me though. Your experience of Trusts led you to think that way and I'm sorry I could not understand it, nor agree with that healers can be easily replaced by AI.

http://i.imgur.com/acS1ifh.png

However, though I understand you sentiment, I don't think we're being ignored. They talked about complexity for healers. They knew exactly what we want, but they decided not to give what we having been asking for. Apparently, what we want are against their designs and they don't like it. They changed healer design by choice, not by ignorance. They know what we're asking for and EW is their answer.

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Originally Posted by MellowMink

Does anybody else find it extremely weird that Miasma 2 just doesn't exist in the game for even a single job now? We jump from 1 to 3, and there's nothing between those...

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The roman numerals on spells only exist for the English language of the game I believe because Koji and other localization leads will it to be so, so it's probably an oversight due to it if the respective names in the other languages probably gave it a -ra or -aga suffix so even if it's skipping an intermediary spell, it probably still makes sense in those languages because one still comes before the other with the latter spell simply given a higher tier suffix so the logic is still maintained.

When they openly admit and state that they are aware of the interest and love of the older style of play from the previous game builds, but believe the current game build is best for the game's future growth as a whole; I'm not hearing ignoring folk or neglect; instead I'm hearing a parental figure firmly letting their children know that they know what's best for the game they are playing.

Not giving in to the wants and desires of people is not the same thing as neglect.

Yoshi-P wants to add another 10 years to this game; so going backwards now is exactly the same type of mistakes Blizzard made with World of Warcraft; when they transitioned from the very mainstream and user-friendly gameplay of Wraith of the Lich King; to the difficulty spike not-felt-since-TBC and learning curve of Cataclysm.

Sometimes you have to trust that the developers know what is best for their own game in the long term.

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Originally Posted by Neoyoshi

When they openly admit and state that they are aware of the interest and love of the older style of play from the previous game builds, but believe the current game build is best for the game's future growth as a whole; I'm not hearing ignoring folk or neglect; instead I'm hearing a parental figure firmly letting their children know that they know what's best for the game they are playing.

Not giving in to the wants and desires of people is not the same thing as neglect.

Yoshi-P wants to add another 10 years to this game; so going backwards now is exactly the same type of mistakes Blizzard made with World of Warcraft; when they transitioned from the very mainstream and user-friendly gameplay of Wraith of the Lich King; to the difficulty spike not-felt-since-TBC and learning curve of Cataclysm.

Sometimes you have to trust that the developers know what is best for their own game in the long term.

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Dia Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Dia Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare

Whatever is "best" for the game's future, that sure looks like a double dose of Ambien to me.

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Originally Posted by Neoyoshi

When they openly admit and state that they are aware of the interest and love of the older style of play from the previous game builds, but believe the current game build is best for the game's future growth as a whole; I'm not hearing ignoring folk or neglect; instead I'm hearing a parental figure firmly letting their children know that they know what's best for the game they are playing.

Not giving in to the wants and desires of people is not the same thing as neglect.

Yoshi-P wants to add another 10 years to this game; so going backwards now is exactly the same type of mistakes Blizzard made with World of Warcraft; when they transitioned from the very mainstream and user-friendly gameplay of Wraith of the Lich King; to the difficulty spike not-felt-since-TBC and learning curve of Cataclysm.

Sometimes you have to trust that the developers know what is best for their own game in the long term.

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So I'm paying for a parent to preach to me about something objectively wrong?

I can just move back in and get that for free. I'm sorry, but it is not good enough an argument to say "dev good. Do trust dev." Just because you're the creator doesn't inherently mean you know what you are doing and we have ample evidence of that both in and outside of FFXIV.

Hell, with SCH they admitted themselves they don't know what to do despite insisting otherwise in the same breath. This is not a parent, which is good because we don't need one. This is someone who is confused who is desperate to keep up the act that they are not.

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Originally Posted by Roeshel

Jesus Christ

"You are underperforming if you are not using a macro on Scholar basically"

Is this guy for real or was the healer gameplay actually that bad? Using a macro to achieve optimal gameplay? How can anyone want that type of playstyle?

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Much <3 for Ashe, always had fun times healing alongside him whilst my group was on a mid tier hiatus, this clip has me laughing every time it pops up, group dieing? NP, Just glare the problem away!

Back on topic, I used the macro thing during ARR and when healer DPS wasn't really a consideration it was indeed pretty potent. I used to have embrace macroed to my target with heals whilst my nukes and dots embraced the target of my target, the idea being to force the fairy to pump those embraces into the tank where you'd get the most value from them. Teammates would generally get topped by the next Whispering Dawn anyway.

Once it became clear I was going to get drafted back into world prog on SCH for Heavensward for a bit I did some experimentation and practice and promptly realised these macros were costing me around 1 to 2 GCDs per minute with how poorly they queued.

This spurred on trying various methods such as pedals and mouse wheel spinning before I eventually settled on a macro keypad emulating a gamepad so I could mash a button with my thumb to focus Embraces on the party member of my choice.

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Originally Posted by Neoyoshi

Sometimes you have to trust that the developers know what is best for their own game in the long term.

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3.0 AST, 3.5 WHM, 4.0 SCH (and AST to a lesser degree for the strange backwards QoL step it took) and 5.0 SCH suggest otherwise.

I'm sure Yoshida's vision is absolutely fine, that's not the problem however. The issue is that the seemingly still 4 or 5 strong battle system design team just doesn't have the depth of talent to keep up with the increased job complexity, larger overall number of jobs and a player base that is getting ever better at optimising and min maxing.

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Originally Posted by Neoyoshi

Sometimes you have to trust that the developers know what is best for their own game in the long term.

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Trust? How? SE Has neglected healers for over two years, leaving them to be 1 button meme jobs with a bunch of oGCD's, how can we trust them at all now? After what we saw in Shb and in the live letter?

Also, dumbing down healers is only good in the short term, this isn't even a good long term decision for the players or the only thing SE cares about, money. Eventually people will start to get sick of healers, and more and more and more people will cancel their subs, people are already rightfully pissed off with SCH, how long til everyone is sick of the others? Mid way through EW? I certainly hope so

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Dia Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Dia Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare

Whatever is "best" for the game's future, that sure looks like a double dose of Ambien to me.

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Yeah. His response was just a bunch of empty platitudes that ignored the issue of 1-button spam completely.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Dia Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Dia Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare

Whatever is "best" for the game's future, that sure looks like a double dose of Ambien to me.

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The excessive casts of Glare/Broil/Malefic aside. We all know what we actually do are more than that.

For WHM, Assize, Tetragrammaton, Asylum, Divine Benison, Afflatus Solace, Afflatus Misery, etc

For SCH, Sacred Soil, Exog, Aether Flow, Indomintability, Summon Seraph,etc

For AST, Light Speed, cards, Earthly Star, Celestial Opposition, etc

I'm not here to counter you though. I know where your sentiment is coming from. I don't like those excessive cast of 1 spell either. They tried to address this after Eden's Verse, but what we see in Eden's Promise is still a bit lacking. Hopefully they can find a way to push us to our fullest in EW .

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

The excessive casts of Glare/Broil/Malefic aside. We all know what we actually do are more than that.

For WHM, Assize, Tetragrammaton, Asylum, Divine Benison, Afflatus Solace, Afflatus Misery, etc

For SCH, Sacred Soil, Exog, Aether Flow, Indomintability, Summon Seraph,etc

For AST, Light Speed, cards, Earthly Star, Celestial Opposition, etc

I'm not here to counter you though. I know where your sentiment is coming from. I don't like those excessive cast of 1 spell either. They tried to address this after Eden's Verse, but what we see in Eden's Promise is still a bit lacking. Hopefully they can find a way to push us to our fullest in EW .

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Agreed that there is more to healers and I'm not here to argue either but aside from white mage which had 2 damaging spells in your list.. scholar had 0 and Astro only had 1.. I don't mind current setups on healers personally I started healing as Scholar in Stormblood so I don't know what's all missing or changed to much.. but I do know that scholar in ShB has been a let down.. ive swapped to WHT as my main healer and with Yoshi saying nothing is wrong with SCH and there won't be much change.. its not looking like the job for me for another 2 years.. the same with my original main being DRK... nothing new.. nothing changed and nothing was fixed.

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

The excessive casts of Glare/Broil/Malefic aside. We all know what we actually do are more than that.

For WHM, Assize, Tetragrammaton, Asylum, Divine Benison, Afflatus Solace, Afflatus Misery, etc

For SCH, Sacred Soil, Exog, Aether Flow, Indomintability, Summon Seraph,etc

For AST, Light Speed, cards, Earthly Star, Celestial Opposition, etc

I'm not here to counter you though. I know where your sentiment is coming from. I don't like those excessive cast of 1 spell either. They tried to address this after Eden's Verse, but what we see in Eden's Promise is still a bit lacking. Hopefully they can find a way to push us to our fullest in EW .

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Thing is, ALL of those are OGCD. So while there is "stuff to do" you spend the majority of your characters time casting Generic Nuke

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Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

You guys are so focused on making the game harder for you when it’s not about you. It’s about the players who don’t want to treat this like a job and still do optimal dps with not extreme amounts of effort

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I mean you have so many healer that don’t dps even with 2 buttons too press. Implementing a lot of dmg button won’t hurt people that don’t want to dps anyway. With so little buttons too press for healer dps you only kneecap people who want too deal dmg and like I said people that don’t deal dmg don’t care anyway if they have 2 or 10 dps buttons. This game is taking the wow route in the job/class design. Making everything easy doesn’t always result in enjoyment and fun it rather makes you so bored that even when you love the healer role, you dont want to play it anymore. But that’s not even all the healer roles fault at this point, it’s the 6 years of being ignored by the dev team and being treated like a 3 class human being that makes us so enraged and bitter and then you have people tell you here too chill or take a break from the game and I even did that. I took a break for months and chilled and the feeling except being a bit rusty after starting too play the game again didn’t change because it can’t change with the encounter design we currently have in ff 14.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Thing is, ALL of those are OGCD. So while there is "stuff to do" you spend the majority of your characters time casting Generic Nuke

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Judging by this statement alone I would think turning those abilities into non instant GCDs would solve all the problems, though I'm pretty sure those Afflatus thingy are not oGCD last time I checked

I think the problem lies not on GCDs or oGCDs, but the variety of things we can do when healing is not required. I personally can live with 1 GCD spam as long as that GCD interacts with something, like giving gauges with each successful cast

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Originally Posted by Neoyoshi

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Trust is earned not expected. Right now Yoshida and co are on a slippery slope. They have higher numbers than ever thanks to WOW burning to bits and the smart marketing move of offering two games for free as a trial, but they got to keep these numbers, and right now they are doing their damndest to remove veterans from the game.

The older jobs and newer job designs are not mutually exclusive, but instead of making jobs low floor high ceiling, they instead continued down the path nobody wants which is homogenisation and utter disrespect for healers.

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

Judging by this statement alone I would think turning those abilities into non instant GCDs would solve all the problems, though I'm pretty sure those Afflatus thingy are not oGCD last time I checked

I think the problem lies not on GCDs or oGCDs, but the variety of things we can do when healing is not required. I personally can live with 1 GCD spam as long as that GCD interacts with something, like giving gauges with each successful cast

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SCH pvp used to be like this (Still might be?) Your main filler spell would give you charges of aetheryte which you could use on lustrate.

But yeah, Broil giving 5-10 on the fairy gauge? Yes freaking please. Or y'know that trait they dropped in ShB that lowered the CD on aetherflow on each broil cast.

Glare giving you a chance to proc FreeCure? Yes freaking please.

Malefic lowering the CD on Essential Dignity or Card Draw?

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Originally Posted by Neoyoshi

When they openly admit and state that they are aware of the interest and love of the older style of play from the previous game builds, but believe the current game build is best for the game's future growth as a whole;

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You know, people said the exact same shit about ShB. How it was just a platform they were going to build off of for all healers. And that all healers would drastically improve because "They were only tearing them down to build them up again guys I swear!"

Well, who's laughing now, because it isn't me. And these people were very fucking wrong in their predictions.

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Originally Posted by Laphicet

You know, people said the exact same shit about ShB. How it was just a platform they were going to build off of for all healers. And that all healers would drastically improve because "They were only tearing them down to build them up again guys I swear!"

Well, who's laughing now, because it isn't me. And these people were very fucking wrong in their predictions.

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These people were not necessarily wrong...Aside from the AST sect changes which some people may not like, every other changes announced for healers are improvements. :p

Still very new to the game - or rather a returner after I left for good before Heavensward came - and I could really feel the difference in playing all healers across the board. I'm not on max level so my experience varies a lot, compared to seasoned players, but I can already feel how stale this gameplay feels. It is either casting dmg Button 1 + the occasional big heal at a very big pull or Spam Holy/ Art of War. I was really wondering if this is going to stay the same.
Looking into forums is often times not the best idea due to many people not being vocal about their opinion which often leads to small groups of players, mostly from vastly different spectrums. Naturally I'm a bit disheartened now. Though, what I simply wanted to add is that I had fun playing healer - when I started to play PvP, namely Frontlines. There I actually felt like healing can win the match and make the day. It was rather hectic and I did not care so much about Stone (Glare) because I was very busy keeping my party alive.
I wonder if this is actually happening in the "general" gameplay loop too.

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Originally Posted by Garnix

These people were not necessarily wrong...Aside from the AST sect changes which some people may not like, every other changes announced for healers are improvements. :p

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I don't think many people were hankering for Astro's 1 dot, 1 aoe, 1 nuke rotation, not even other Astros.

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Originally Posted by Garnix

These people were not necessarily wrong...Aside from the AST sect changes which some people may not like, every other changes announced for healers are improvements. :p

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Yes but it’s only because yoshi and his team were the ones too make these things a problem in the first place. You don’t thank the exterminator for killing some of the rats when he was the one releasing them in the first place. All these healer “changes” were sorely needed and they still don’t fix the over arching problem healer have in this game, that the fight design forces for almost all content massive downtime’s in healing so you stand there with 2 buttons to press until a weak aoe comes that you can heal with ogcd anyway and then afterwards it back too 1 and 2 button spamming. And that the future for the entire healer class for another 2 years.

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Originally Posted by Mortex

And that the future for the entire healer class for another 2 years.

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That's very optimistic. I think it is the future for at least 6 years. In 3 expansions from now, they will want to add a new healer and will wonder how to balance the amount of shield and pure healers if there are 5 healers, so they will go back to the drawing board for that.

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Originally Posted by Garnix

That's very optimistic. I think it is the future for at least 6 years. In 3 expansions from now, they will want to add a new healer and will wonder how to balance the amount of shield and pure healers if there are 5 healers, so they will go back to the drawing board for that.

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I mean knowing the track record that pretty much is going too be the future and I don’t think a good one.

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Originally Posted by Mortex

I mean knowing the track record that pretty much is going too be the future and I don’t think a good one.

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It's fine. The mindset in my mind is the first encounter is most healing and subsequent ones you get to dps more. Being able to dps more is exciting because it means you got stronger either with mechanics or level/gear. It doesn't really get boring as long as you are rewarded for it.

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Originally Posted by Garnix

That's very optimistic. I think it is the future for at least 6 years. In 3 expansions from now, they will want to add a new healer and will wonder how to balance the amount of shield and pure healers if there are 5 healers, so they will go back to the drawing board for that.

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They have also expressed that there will come a time when they have to slow down and then stop adding new jobs.
Who knows, maybe the 4 healers we have will be all the healers we get. Based on the way he's talked about it there are already rumblings and rumors that 7.0 will only add one new job.

We can't just get more jobs forever, and they might not add a 5th one if their drawing board doesn't look promising or if they don't feel like they'd also be able to add a 6th healer further down the line to balance things out.

But yeah, who knows what this game will look like in 6 years.

My hope for last things to add:

1) A melee-centric healer (maybe Green Mage or Geomancer?)

2) A dedicated DoT caster. (Oracle/Omnyoji/Time Mage?)

3) Maybe one more ranged DPS. (BST with a limited side content?)

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Originally Posted by ToodlesElNoodles

My hope for last things to add:

1) A melee-centric healer (maybe Green Mage or Geomancer?)

2) A dedicated DoT caster. (Oracle/Omnyoji/Time Mage?)

3) Maybe one more ranged DPS. (BST with a limited side content?)

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Melee healer might never happen due to raid designs.

when 8 people are targeted by unavoidable aoes, you will have to push 1 melee out in order to function. Melee dps will stay no doubt. MT should not move. You are going to have war with ST for that 1 spot

Despite that, I looking forward to see it happen. Sounds interesting to me

Who knows, it's not like WHM and SCH don't already need to go melee to cast Holy/AoW (Gods I hate AoW so much tho...), not to mention DNC is technically a melee job when regarding their aoe rotation, RDM has a melee phase, SMN and SGE(?) have gap closers, and NIN is [jokingly] considered an honorary ranged job - I think that while making a pure melee healer a la WoW holy paladin or Diablo monk would be impossible, designing a healer with a kit heavily involved in short distance combat/healing can be done.

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Originally Posted by Allegor

Who knows, it's not like WHM and SCH don't already need to go melee to cast Holy/AoW (Gods I hate AoW so much tho...), not to mention DNC is technically a melee job when regarding their aoe rotation, RDM has a melee phase, SMN and SGE(?) have gap closers, and NIN is [jokingly] considered an honorary ranged job - I think that while making a pure melee healer a la WoW holy paladin or Diablo monk would be impossible, designing a healer with a kit heavily involved in short distance combat/healing can be done.

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Good to know there are some people use Holy, Art of War in 8 man raids

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Originally Posted by Moenblyss

"We know there are some people who want the complexity of 3.0 but we're building on 5.0 (read: Homogenization and easiness of play)"

If you were actually listening to the broadcast they opened up with this.

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Mentioned above - Here's the Twitch clip to where they start talking about game direction regarding complexity: https://clips.twitch.tv/InquisitiveC...pbATBFRl34z657

"And of course there are a small group of you that desire for that complexity of what we've done in the 3.0 series... But I'm afraid we won't go in that direction."

The Devs aren't ignoring you. If you continue watching the live letter at this point - the chat is filled with "GOOD" regarding the game direction. The supposed thousands who want more complexity is out weighed by the 80k people who showed up for the live letter spamming their approval.

If you really want change, making these types of knee-jerk reaction threads is unconstructive. Create a "Show your support! <insert desired feature>" thread. Let the likes do the talking. I'm sure the near 2000 likes the Male Viera thread got is a huge factor as to why they've been added in 6.0.

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

Good to know there are some people use Holy, Art of War in 8 man raids

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Adds are rare in raids, but at least I do use Holy if I need to. That said, I'm speaking in general gameplay, not specifically 8 man raids.

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Originally Posted by Byonka

The Devs aren't ignoring you. If you continue watching the live letter at this point - the chat is filled with "GOOD" regarding the game direction. The supposed thousands who want more complexity is out weighed by the 80k people who showed up for the live letter spamming their approval.

If you really want change, making these types of knee-jerk reaction threads is unconstructive. Create a "Show your support! <insert desired feature>" thread. Let the likes do the talking. I'm sure the near 2000 likes the Male Viera thread got is a huge factor as to why they've been added in 6.0.

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We have that thread already. Its the "A summary of healer issues" thread https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5348029 that has currently 49 pages with the very first post outlining what we want as healers, what we want as WHM, what we want as SCH, and what we want as AST.

They still didn't listen.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

We have that thread already. Its the "A summary of healer issues" thread https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5348029 that has currently 49 pages with the very first post outlining what we want as healers, what we want as WHM, what we want as SCH, and what we want as AST.

They still didn't listen.

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The problem is you see them as issues while most players see them as good things. If sch loses ED and their Dot I will be happy. Then I just want them to fix seraph timer to be longer and honestly I would feel happy to play the class. Dissipation is whatever.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

We have that thread already. Its the "A summary of healer issues" thread https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5348029 that has currently 49 pages with the very first post outlining what we want as healers, what we want as WHM, what we want as SCH, and what we want as AST.

They still didn't listen.

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They did listen. 173 people showed their support. "A small group".

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Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

The problem is you see them as issues while most players see them as good things. If sch loses ED and their Dot I will be happy. Then I just want them to fix seraph timer to be longer and honestly I would feel happy to play the class. Dissipation is whatever.

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Just remove Broil while you're at it too. Let healers transition completely to part-time team members. No raid-wide or tank buster? Don't bother me, I'm trying to watch Kay's Cooking on youtube.

Summoner is finally getting real summons, but what if we let players be the summons? Just jump in after a big AoE to cast an Indom and then immediately leave. Cast Summon again if you need me, I'll be alt+tabbed.

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Originally Posted by Boizinho

Just remove Broil while you're at it too. Let healers transition completely to part-time team members. No raid-wide or tank buster? Don't bother me, I'm trying to watch Kay's Cooking on youtube.

Summoner is finally getting real summons, but what if we let players be the summons? Just jump in after a big AoE to cast an Indom and then immediately leave. Cast Summon again if you need me, I'll be alt+tabbed.

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Now you are just being silly. Why can't you just realize many healers prob majority hate having to balance a healing rotation for “optimal dps” while managing other players life. This breeds toxicity because unlike dps where their rotation is barely disturbed by bad players it is on healers and isn't good for them or the game. If it's all simple and the same parse lords can ignore the classes and go focus on dps as they should

Wait what??

Did u all forget that they legit said all healers is getting a holy treatment with their AoE skills ....

That means Art of War 2 now does more then just "damage" and that all healers can provide buffs to the party

At this current time we DO NOT have the new tool tips for the current healers, the only healer we have tool tips on is sage and that's it

We don't even know if glare/broil/malefic does new things, we do not know what the new gravity/holy/art of war does either

At this current time scholars are throwing their hands in the air AGAIN before even knowing anything at all

Sigh this is just a repeat history of 3.X where scholar legit panicked over AST......Now it's panicking over SAGE, scholars always panic over any new healing job that gets put into the game

Been here for 8 years in total and history repeats it self .....sigh

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Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

Now you are just being silly. Why can't you just realize many healers prob majority hate having to balance a healing rotation for “optimal dps” while managing other players life. This breeds toxicity because unlike dps where their rotation is barely disturbed by bad players it is on healers and isn't good for them or the game. If it's all simple and the same parse lords can ignore the classes and go focus on dps as they should

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It's true managing a rotation would be hard if it was always interupted when you had to heal. If only they had a way to make some actions not interrupt the rotations... oh wait...