About damage essences in Delubrum/Dalriada

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Originally Posted by MilkieTea

“It’s too much effort to even USE the shopping cart. I’m just gonna ask all the store attendants and clerks to carry everything for me!”

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Isn't that just curbside pickup?

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Originally Posted by hobostew

Isn't that just curbside pickup?

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HAH!

well at least with curbside pickup you’re being honest with yourself, ive seen some people walk into the grocery store and just ask clerks to hold everything for them.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Skirmishes and CE's earn you basically nothing in terms of essences. Also, like I said, Skirmishes and CEs are always running non-stop in SF; I've never had any downtime between skirmishes to sit around killing trash. If anything there was always more of them going on than I could ever reasonably do, so stopping to kill trash would only slow me down.

Also, let's not ignore the fact that it's MUCH more efficient to do all of the steps before DR outside of Bozja. For relic hunters the most efficient way to do everything is to ignore cluster/fragment farming, and that's entirely by design.

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Weird how I said, spawning them nets you clusters for essences, not the skimishes themselves (although some CEs and Skirmishes actually do drop fragments). If youre seeing a lot of CEs spawn, someone else is actually doing the work to spawn the skirmishes that lead to them.

Amazingly, the DR step is actually only efficient if you have nothing else to level and joining speed run PFs that get sub 20 minute clears. Otherwise, the alternative to this step, PotD, is actually more efficient.

Lets also not ignore that running DR itself nets you fragments as well.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

Weird how I said, spawning them nets you clusters for essences, not the skimishes themselves (although some CEs and Skirmishes actually do drop fragments). If youre seeing a lot of CEs spawn, someone else is actually doing the work to spawn the skirmishes that lead to them.

Amazingly, the DR step is actually only efficient if you have nothing else to level and joining speed run PFs that get sub 20 minute clears. Otherwise, the alternative to this step, PotD, is actually more efficient.

Lets also not ignore that running DR itself nets you fragments as well.

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Weird how I said I didn't have to spawn them, because SFs standard traffic already spawns them faster than I can run them. The point being there's zero reason to ever stop and farm clusters.

Also, PoTD is only more efficient if you're already farming around floors 150+. Otherwise it's complete RNG that's weighted against you; probably spend hours farming and get nothing.

Also, so what if DR nets you fragments? Fragments aren't essences; they're loot boxes that will most likely give you crap. If you're not farming clusters you probably won't have the essences people expecting you to run, but there's no reason for people doing the relic to EVER waste their time farming clusters.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

Amazingly, the DR step is actually only efficient if you have nothing else to level and joining speed run PFs that get sub 20 minute clears. Otherwise, the alternative to this step, PotD, is actually more efficient.

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... It's not? Have you been in DR recently? Becuase of the amount of time you need to get a relic is cut down quite drastically (from 15 to 5), most people use essences now and I haven't had a run go for too long, and this is with pugs. (Only one that went a bit long was a run I had quite a few newbies, and that's okay). PotD is now even less effective imo.

Its whatever, essences are NOT a requirement for normal runs, only for DR Savage, just so you can survive the damage. I just use whatever I have but dont spend any gil on essences or lost actions for normal runs, if anything ill end up using alt jobs and use those essences I rarely use, but thats about it really.

I can count the number of times I've actually sat down specifically to farm essences on one hand. Idk if I just spend far more time in Bozja than I've realized or what, but I'm swimming in most of the essences and actions I care about just from passively doing the content. Heck, some of the cheap essences have 100% droprate fragments you can farm, though I'm guessing that's probably not all of them.

I mean if you don't wanna sit and farm that's your prerogative, and if you aren't spending much time in the content anyway it probably doesn't matter much. But if you've got them, there's no reason at all not to use them, and the more people DON'T use them, the longer every single run is. The difference in speed between a group with people even half trying to use 'correct' essences and a group where most people aren't is... not small.

I mean I'm lazy af when I go into Bozja now... I never take off Seraph strike, I'm drowning in aetherweavers and profanes, and the only finite resource I need to worry about at this point is chaincasts. I do stupid amounts of damage with close to zero effort and it's fantastic.

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Originally Posted by Infindox

... It's not? Have you been in DR recently? Becuase of the amount of time you need to get a relic is cut down quite drastically (from 15 to 5), most people use essences now and I haven't had a run go for too long, and this is with pugs. (Only one that went a bit long was a run I had quite a few newbies, and that's okay). PotD is now even less effective imo.

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I do DR in PF where the average run is about 15 minutes. Two forty five minute runs and I was done with duty finder.

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Originally Posted by Avidria

I can count the number of times I've actually sat down specifically to farm essences on one hand.

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I can count the number of times I'd be willing to do it on zero hands.

I think the disconnect here is between people running Bozja for Bozja, and people running Bozja for the relic.

If you've spent a lot of time in Bozja just doing stuff I'm sure you've gotten a ton of essences naturally, and just assume everyone else has done the same. That's not the case, though. If you're only doing what you need for the relic you'll most likely end up at steps like DR with barely any essences to use. If you're noticing that most people in DRN aren't using essences, it's because most people doing Bozja in general ONLY want their relic.

Bozja is only still alive because it force funnels relic hunters through it. All of you who are actually enjoying Bozja might want to just take that as a win, instead of pissing about how most of the people in Bozja don't want to farm essences.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I can count the number of times I'd be willing to do it on zero hands.

I think the disconnect here is between people running Bozja for Bozja, and people running Bozja for the relic.

If you've spent a lot of time in Bozja just doing stuff I'm sure you've gotten a ton of essences naturally, and just assume everyone else has done the same. That's not the case, though. If you're only doing what you need for the relic you'll most likely end up at steps like DR with barely any essences to use. If you're noticing that most people in DRN aren't using essences, it's because most people doing Bozja in general ONLY want their relic.

Bozja is only still alive because it force funnels relic hunters through it. All of you who are enjoying Bozja might want to just take that as a win, instead of pissing about how most of the people in Bozja don't want to farm essences.

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Here's the thing, it'll go faster if you have essences. That means less net time in bozja for you. If no one used essences, you'd be looking at an hour and a half each run.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Here's the thing, it'll go faster if you have essences. That means less net time in bozja for you. If no one used essences, you'd be looking at an hour and a half each run.

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I've already had this discussion what feels like 100 times, but no it won't. Me specifically using an essence might take 1 minute off of a DRN run at best. Farming essences takes considerably more time than that; and, before you suggest it, I'm not spending gil on MB lootboxes for a chance at them either.

I'm not saying you shouldn't use any essences you've lucked into while doing relic stuff, but once you run out there's ABSOLUTELY NO reason to ever farm them.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I've already had this discussion what feels like 100 times, but no it won't. Me specifically using an essence might take 1 minute off of a DRN run at best. Farming essences takes considerably more time than that; and, before you suggest it, I'm not spending gil on MB lootboxes for a chance at them either.

I'm not saying you shouldn't use any essences you've lucked into while doing relic stuff, but once you run out there's ABSOLUTELY NO reason to ever farm them.

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I disagree. You can get 5 or 6 skirmishes essences from the mobs just outside the 2nd camp in SF in less than 10 minutes. That all adds up.

But you do you.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I disagree. You can get 5 or 6 skirmishes essences from the mobs just outside the 2nd camp in SF in less than 10 minutes. That all adds up.

But you do you.

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AFTER you've put together a group to farm clusters and IF you get very lucky with fragment RNG then sure, it's likely possible. Once all of that's happened you can pop a skirmisher essence for your 5 DR runs, at best saving yourself maybe 5 minutes in DR. Even in a best case scenario farming, no matter how you look at it, farming essences doesn't save you time.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

AFTER you've put together a group to farm clusters and IF you get very lucky with fragment RNG then sure, it's likely possible. Once all of that's happened you can pop a skirmisher essence for your 5 DR runs, at best saving yourself maybe 5 minutes in DR. Even in a best case scenario farming, no matter how you look at it, farming essences doesn't save you time.

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Uhh, no, solo farm mobs. Not for clusters, just the fragments. They drop frequently off them. Just kill the doblyns.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Uhh, no, solo farm mobs. Not for clusters, just the fragments. They drop frequently off them. Just kill the doblyns.

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To get that many essences that fast solo farming fragments would take some insane luck with RNG. Might want to store that luck for a lottery ticket.

It's still beyond the point, though. Even if in some fantasy world I could consistently solo farm 5-7 skirmisher essences every 10 minutes, that 10 minutes is still technically a net loss in time. Me using a skirmisher in DRN has virtually no impact on the clear time.

My GUY... me, solo farming like 8 mobs RIGHT outside the BSJ gate netted me 6 fragments. for 10 mins of work - and that was solo farming, not doing anything at all. Just pop an essence and GO, my guy.

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Originally Posted by MilkieTea

My GUY... me, solo farming like 8 mobs RIGHT outside the BSJ gate netted me 6 fragments. for 10 mins of work - and that was solo farming, not doing anything at all. Just pop an essence and GO, my guy.

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You realize a fragment is not an essence, right?

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

You realize a fragment is not an essence, right?

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And you realize you don't need top of the line essences, right? Just take ten mins out of your time ONCE (not every time, just ONCE), either farm with a group or solo farm, get a few fragments, trade them in for the most BASIC of essences.

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Originally Posted by MilkieTea

And you realize you don't need top of the line essences, right? Just take ten mins out of your time ONCE (not every time, just ONCE), either farm with a group or solo farm, get a few fragments, trade them in for the most BASIC of essences.

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You don't trade them; you gamble them. That 10 minutes could easily result in nothing, and me using a basic essence in a DRN run won't make any notable difference in the clear time anyways.

It's funny, you're basically pleading with me to waste 10 minutes for no reason. I'm not sure why some of you can't accept this; farming fragments, clusters, etc. is a waste of time for relic hunters. That's undeniable.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

You don't trade them; you gamble them. That 10 minutes could easily result in nothing, and me using a basic essence in a DRN run won't make any notable difference in the clear time anyways.

It's funny, you're basically pleading with me to waste 10 minutes for no reason. I'm not sure why some of you can't accept this; farming fragments, clusters, etc. is a waste of time for relic hunters. That's undeniable.

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Not farming fragments, clusters, etc. is a waste of time for relic hunters. That’s undeniable.

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Originally Posted by MilkieTea

Not farming fragments, clusters, etc. is a waste of time for relic hunters. That’s undeniable.

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Ah, you're just a troll. My mistake.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Ah, you're just a troll. My mistake.

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People who disagree with you ≠ trolls. But I wouldn’t expect you to understand this, given your selfish understanding of the world.

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Originally Posted by MilkieTea

People who disagree with you ≠ trolls. But I wouldn’t expect you to understand this, given your selfish understanding of the world.

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I explained why it's a waste of time, even did the math for you. Your response was "no it's not" with no elucidation, math or counterpoint. You're definitely a troll.

I guess in the end you did manage to get me to waste my time. Well trolled. ;)

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I explained why it's a waste of time, even did the math for you. Your response was "no it's not" with no elucidation, math or counterpoint. You're definitely a troll.

I guess in the end you did manage to get me to waste my time. Well trolled. ;)

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I’ve already explained it to you in the other thread on this topic. I’d rather not repeat myself ad nauseam. You’ve done no math, just drew up numbers and vague ideas from thin air (guess you must be an amazing white mage!)

> cries about not having time to farm clusters or fragments to justify being dead weight in DR
> complains in forum for 11 pages
> leaveskeeps complaining like seriously dude go farm some clusters

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Originally Posted by MilkieTea

I’ve already explained it to you in the other thread on this topic. I’d rather not repeat myself ad nauseam. You’ve done no math, just drew up numbers and vague ideas from thin air (guess you must be an amazing white mage!)

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It's not that difficult to math out. We'll keep it simple by leaving everything divisible... So, I'm 1/24th of a 48 minute DR run. That means I represent 2 minutes of the runs clear time. Skirmisher represents a 20% increase in my throughput, which would theoretically improve the overall clear time by 24 seconds.

So, 1 Skirmisher represents roughly 24 seconds of my time. If I can't farm a Skirmisher at a rate of 1 every 24 seconds then farming wastes my time.

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Originally Posted by lezard21

> cries about not having time to farm clusters or fragments to justify being dead weight in DR
> complains in forum for 11 pages
> leaveskeeps complaining like seriously dude go farm some clusters

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THIS! All of this time spent complaining, the dude could've spent farming clusters and fragments. Would probably have like 100 by now!

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I explained why it's a waste of time, even did the math for you.

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You did no math.

Math is: Good Fragments are now 1 cluster. On average you get an Essence per 2 fragments. You need 5 DR runs per Relic now. On average you need 10 Clusters per relic.

Most players get significantly more just leveling in Bozja from stray mobs that wander into Fates. I had 50 by the time I'd leveled from 15-25 in Zadnor. You can farm them quite fast in a Cluster group too.

At this stage you might as well just admit you're lazy and don't really care about other players. People would respect you for the honestly more than trying to make up convoluted arguments that make no sense to justify yourself and accusing other players of being trolls for pointing out the flaws in those arguments.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

You did no math.

Math is: Good Fragments are now 1 cluster. On average you get an Essence per 2 fragments. You need 5 DR runs per Relic now. On average you need 10 Clusters per relic.

Most players get significantly more just leveling in Bozja from stray mobs that wander into Fates. I had 50 by the time I'd leveled from 15-25 in Zadnor. You can farm them quite fast in a Cluster group too.

At this stage you might as well just admit you're lazy and don't really care about other players. People would respect you for the honestly more than trying to make up convoluted arguments that make no sense to justify yourself and accusing other players of being trolls for pointing out the flaws in those arguments.

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No, I did provide Math showing it's less efficient. It's a waste of time, that much isn't deniable. It wastes far less time now, which is fair enough, but it's still a waste of time.

If people are getting enough essences without farming nowadays then great, no problem. I'm just saying that if you run out there's absolutely no reason to ever farm essences if you're only in it for the relic, and I'm 100% right.

As for whether or not it's lazy, that's immaterial. I've been saying this whole time this is what's most efficient for me (the relic hunter); not that it's what helps everyone else. If you agree that it's the most efficient approach, but think I'm lazy or self-centered for doing it, I really don't care. The opinions and "respect" of the people on this board mean very little to me.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I can count the number of times I'd be willing to do it on zero hands.

I think the disconnect here is between people running Bozja for Bozja, and people running Bozja for the relic.

If you've spent a lot of time in Bozja just doing stuff I'm sure you've gotten a ton of essences naturally, and just assume everyone else has done the same. That's not the case, though. If you're only doing what you need for the relic you'll most likely end up at steps like DR with barely any essences to use. If you're noticing that most people in DRN aren't using essences, it's because most people doing Bozja in general ONLY want their relic.

Bozja is only still alive because it force funnels relic hunters through it. All of you who are actually enjoying Bozja might want to just take that as a win, instead of pissing about how most of the people in Bozja don't want to farm essences.

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Honestly I think the disconnect is really questionable design decisions. Because I agree actually, if you don't do Bozja for Bozja you're just not gonna have essences and not have much reason to farm them because you're probably never gonna touch the raids again once you have the shiny weapon.

The issue being, the number of people only there for the weapon is prooobably higher than the number doing it for the other stuff or even just for fun, compounded by the fact that the difference the essences make is not even a little bit small. I can turn my white mage into a very good dps that can ALSO still heal very well, for very little cost and very little effort on my part. It's hilarious and awesome and part of why I enjoy Bozja so much. But if there are only like, 5 people in say, a Delubrum who are using decent essences and actions, it takes WAY longer. Like. 15-20 minutes longer. And it's very noticeable purely from how many mechanics the bosses get to do.

Don't get me wrong, I don't actually care that much. I don't call people out (unless you're a tank trying to main tank with irregular up and NOT using any CDs at all because good god please do not do that) but like... personally I'd rather spend 10 minutes, get a handful of crappy essences, and toss them on even for a bit of a boost than go in with nothing and do like. A fraction of the damage you can do if you actually get the nice stuff going. The more people do, the faster every run goes for everyone, the sooner people can stop doing the content they don't wanna do.

Rng on top of other Rng as others said. I am not doing Savage, Just farming my relic. Other people has said the same things but got ignored.. Guess It Is easyer ganging on Goji. Just Do a pf if you Wanna a 100% Essence run, no?
Personally i'll use em when i have em, but not gonna farm more. I've Also seen a lot of different "run setups" (with a lot of ppl, or few ppl using essences) never noticed much difference -_- ... Maybe how much.. 5-8 mins? Wow.. gonna change my Life..
Fun how ppl Say "if you dont have 5 mins to farm you have problems with your Life" but litterally go Crazy if a run of wathever content take a few mins more than usual, do you have a train to catch?
"BuT.. but... not using essences Is disrespectful".. lol, do you even live in the real world?
Guess you lived a great Life if "this" Is something disrespectful for you.

the logic "10 min farm = -1 min off clear time so it's 9 min wasted" only works if you're a freeloader, because it's not just -1min off clear your time, it's -1 min off clear time for everyone in the raid; and if you consider, say, maybe thinking about cooperation in an online game where you play with other people to achieve same goal, that is a 14 min positive net gain for the group
what's more, the way farming works if you group up for farming aswell that 10min for farming one essense actually becomes <1min, making it a net positive even if you're not into teamplay

i mean, if you farm say potd you contributing your time to help other 3 ppl isnt gonna speed up the run that much, and since it's clearable solo best way is to /follow someone? i guess the difference is in potd those 3 other people would probably just quit so you'll get nothing

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Originally Posted by lezard21

Not really, unless you are Main Tank or the designated healer of your party, Tanks and Healers can contribute a lot to speeding up DR. They can deal insane amounts of damage with the proper setup, which can be more grindy/expensive to get than DPS setups (bar Excellence setups)

Warrior with Deep Irregular + Blood Rage + Inner Release + Slash is among the most hilarious memetic nonsense I've seen.

WHM with Deep Profane + Seraph Strike + Chainspell + Thin Air + Presence of Mind is just naughty.

And I'm sure there are other more broken combos that people have figured out.

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If we are talking in the realm of screeching out as much DPS as humanly possible with little regard for time or Gil invested and for memes then quite obviously. But in the case of DR normal mode, on the average run, we're talking about grinding a couple of Skill fragments from a bunch of rank 1 mobs right outside the sanctuary in Southern Front to gain an 80% damage increase for healers, and 60% damage increase for tanks, that is why I call it lazy because you can get such a significant increase in output damage just from grinding a couple of rank 1 mobs which just fall over. - There's no reason not to do that much at least. - I don't really expect anyone to run that much of your proposal on a normal mode setup, especially when they can be doing upwards of 120 DR runs for every relic.

It's not like I disagree with it being insanely powerful; because they are, just with regard to invested time or Gil for the average player when you factor in a lot of people are doing multiple relics. You compare a no essence runner to someone running even just a simple regular essence of Martialist, or Essence of Aetherweaver, then you already see a night and day difference for as little effort as it takes to actually get all of that prepared. - I'm talking about creating a significant amount of contribution for practically very very little effort

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Originally Posted by AikenDrum

the logic "10 min farm = -1 min off clear time so it's 9 min wasted" only works if you're a freeloader, because it's not just -1min off clear your time, it's -1 min off clear time for everyone in the raid; and if you consider, say, maybe thinking about cooperation in an online game where you play with other people to achieve same goal, that is a 14 min positive net gain for the group
what's more, the way farming works if you group up for farming aswell that 10min for farming one essense actually becomes <1min, making it a net positive even if you're not into teamplay

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I don't think you know what a freeloader is. Wasting 9 minutes of your time to save 1 minute for 23 other people is self-sacrifice. If you want to sacrifice your time for the benefit of others that's great, but it's not something you can reasonably expect or demand from everyone else. Expecting constant selfless gestures amongst complete strangers is delusional.

It was SE's job to make this content rewarding and they failed, so the lack of motivation in the community to put any effort into this content is on SE.

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Originally Posted by Garten

Personally i'll use em when i have em, but not gonna farm more. I've Also seen a lot of different "run setups" (with a lot of ppl, or few ppl using essences) never noticed much difference -_- ... Maybe how much.. 5-8 mins? Wow.. gonna change my Life..

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Maybe you don't notice the difference because half of the raid was not using essences or actions. Runs where everybody use essences and actions take 15-20 minutes. Call the math guy to calculate how much time was saved vs the 40-50 minutes runs where half the raid is not using essences.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I don't think you know what a freeloader is. Wasting 9 minutes of your time to save 1 minute for 23 other people is self-sacrifice. If you want to sacrifice your time for the benefit of others that's great, but it's not something you can reasonably expect or demand from everyone else. Expecting constant selfless gestures amongst complete strangers is delusional.

It was SE's job to make this content rewarding and they failed, so the lack of motivation in the community to put any effort into this content is on SE.

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Why are you stopping at not farming essences if you think of helping the group as a sacrifice? Go all the way, afk at the start of DR, no one can kick you, come back in an hour to get your relic. All personal time saved, zero effort, maximum efficiency. You hate bozja and don't care about what other people think of you anyway, right?

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Originally Posted by AikenDrum

Why are you stopping at not farming essences if you think of helping the group as a sacrifice? Go all the way, afk at the start of DR, no one can kick you, come back in an hour to get your relic. All personal time saved, zero effort, maximum efficiency. You hate bozja and don't care about what other people think of you anyway, right?

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If I AFK during instances people can report me and get my account suspended or banned. This game has rules; I have to actually participate, and if I have to participate I may as well keep up a rotation and do mechanics to save myself time.

Farming, however, isn't a rule and IS a waste of my time.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

If I AFK during instances people can report me and get my account suspended or banned. This game has rules; I have to actually participate, and if I have to participate I may as well keep up a rotation and do mechanics to save myself time.

Farming, however, isn't a rule and IS a waste of my time.

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you cant get banned for afk, emergencies happen and no one can prove anything
https://i.imgur.com/MrQuIuu.jpg

if you don't like farming essences then it's fine, but don't say it's the most efficient, because if you don't take helping group into account then the most efficient is to afk for free relic

i mean seriously, do you think your essenceless self doing rotation for 40min is gonna save that much time? probably same 1min as you'd get from farming the essence, but for freaking 40 min of effort, how is that not a giant waste of your time?

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Originally Posted by AikenDrum

you cant get banned for afk, emergencies happen and no one can prove anything
https://i.imgur.com/MrQuIuu.jpg

if you don't like farming essences then it's fine, but don't say it's the most efficient, because if you don't take helping group into account then the most efficient is to afk for free relic

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I will say that not allowing vote kicks in DR is hilarious and makes no sense; it's like SE wanted people to try AFKing through it. It is against the ToS, though, and it's a dumb thing to risk your account over.

Also, I said it wastes the relic hunters time, which is correct.

The problem is that things like "farming" require SOME kind of personal incentive to motivate people to do it. SE added a grind but forgot to add the reward, which is hilarious. My reward is the smiling faces of all the other people in DRN who didn't actually notice or care that I saved them 1 whole minute, lol. Are we really all so surprised that's not enough for most people?

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i mean seriously, do you think your essenceless self doing rotation for 40min is gonna save that much time? probably same 1min as you'd get from farming the essence, but for freaking 40 min of effort, how is that not a giant waste of your time?

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How does it waste my time? If I do rotations I get out a minute faster, and I didn't have to grind trash outside of Bozja for 10 minutes to get that 1 minute.

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Originally Posted by AikenDrum

Why are you stopping at not farming essences if you think of helping the group as a sacrifice? Go all the way, afk at the start of DR, no one can kick you, come back in an hour to get your relic. All personal time saved, zero effort, maximum efficiency. You hate bozja and don't care about what other people think of you anyway, right?

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You can't be kicked, but the game will kick you after 10 minutes of inactivity. I had to afk in DR once and ended up taking far longer than I had planned. Came back to find myself in Gangos and I saw the basic "you will be removed after x amount of time of inactivity" and such after scrolling up.