Are classes needed? POLL

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Originally Posted by ArkNova

Hop over to my server we did a 3 brd run last night with no issues

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I wasn't really talking about BRD specifically, I was more saying that SOMEONE is nearly guaranteed to be that guy who gets himself killed, and it's usually the Bard (probably due to animation lock or just my experience with the terrible Bards on Sargatanas). And I'm just saying that IF it's the Bard, the Black Mages aren't going to be able to raise him, meaning they better not screw up, which is too much to ask from a pick up group.

I realized I should have been more clear.

hey, i'm new to this forum so dunt butcher me if i cock up.
Ive been looking through your postes and agree with some but not all.
I have a notion that the original 7 will fade, that's why no af for these poor guys. Someone mentioned about havin 10 traits instead of 5 to give better flexibility, have they seen what se gave us..? most of them you couldnt get 10 usuable traits..
Any-way.. my view on job progression are..take for instance.. war, the final af quest where you see Gorge in control of birds.. my guess is that from war comes bst..
lnc-drg-sam.. maybe, arc-brd-dnc maybe, cnj-whm-smn maybe, some are obvious but subtle. One thing i dont like about the present system is 1 weapon per job, lets face it thats a ball ache. How ever things seem to be going the right way so if ya all get singing from the same hymn sheet and think the powers that be may listen... hope it wasnt too painful ^^

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Originally Posted by Brabus

One thing i dont like about the present system is 1 weapon per job, lets face it thats a ball ache.

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Completely agree, I think jobs should start at level 1 and be changed based on equipped Soul Crystal, and then you gain skills based on the weapons you have equipped, independent of job. We could still have Pugilist and Lancer and all the other default FFXIV classes, but they'd be considered weapon classes.

Probably with limitations to prevent things like WHM equipping fist weapons and whatnot.

I don't think they're going to completely restructure a system they've been working on for the past year.
Besides, we're in a very early stage of their creation. It's going to be a little bumpy for a while.

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Originally Posted by Zezlar

Classes and Jobs are alright, but I would like to see them lock how they can be used in the future. For example: If you were to enter a raid and you are a Dragoon. You could only play as Dragoon. There's a little too much freedom.

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I wouldn't call it freedom. More like openness in the design. I agree, though; classes and jobs should be locked in stuff like boss fights and dungeons. It should wean people off of expecting party members to have 4 different classes and jobs specced and geared and help the devs by removing yet another factor to consider when balancing content. Everyone wins.

On the topic, weapon classes should definitely stay. Where they erred is being so toward a particular role within the class. If GLA's abilities, for example, were all pretty much neutral and just used to deal damage, but gained boosts to damage if you set DRK or enmity boosts if you set PLD are your job crystal, then you could really say jobs help in establishing a role for the weapon class. Concept-wise it makes it less about the weapon itself and more about who is using the weapon.

I still want my magic fencer RDM, though.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I wouldn't call it freedom. More like openness in the design. I agree, though; classes and jobs should be locked in stuff like boss fights and dungeons. It should wean people off of expecting party members to have 4 different classes and jobs specced and geared and help the devs by removing yet another factor to consider when balancing content. Everyone wins.

On the topic, weapon classes should definitely stay. Where they erred is being so toward a particular role within the class. If GLA's abilities, for example, were all pretty much neutral and just used to deal damage, but gained boosts to damage if you set DRK or enmity boosts if you set PLD are your job crystal, then you could really say jobs help in establishing a role for the weapon class. Concept-wise it makes it less about the weapon itself and more about who is using the weapon.

I still want my magic fencer RDM, though.

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They should add that job lock to all raids and stuff, but i guess ppl would still try to blm burn everything lol.

I love the new af but there are only a couple of jobs thats i would use...whether linkshell party, pick-up or what ever i always try and use my thm, cos as mentioned in previous postes blm sucks at staying alive, yea you got cameleon n stuff but where is his survivability. There's no guarrantee that any of your party can keep you alive but you stand a chance with thm.. need more traits from different jobs. Don't get me wrong, it looks good to go out and kick ass in shiney new af buffed upto hilt but practically.. thm rules over blm...

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Originally Posted by RockVolnutt

I don't see why people are so locked into the thinking that a class can only equip one type of weapon.
SE has the ability to make it so classes can equip different weapons that are related to the class, which can bring about different job tree branchings, as I stated earlier in the thread.

It's not too different from your idea, only reverse really.
(from the same idea that MRD will get a greatsword)
1. Equip Greatsword to switch to MRD (possible change in some weaponskills/stats/traits upon changing class related-weapons)
2. Equip Job Stone to switch to Dark Knight (or whatever uses a GS)

This way, classes are relevant (mixed skills, personal class building, adaptable to many situations).
Multiple jobs can branch from one class without overhauling the armory system or having to release new classes (which they still will, so don't worry).
Literally all they would have to do is have the Greatsword have a Req. of MRD and DRK, and some skill editing for MRD (or whatever class has a variety of weapons, I.E. GLD with daggers, etc)

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Right but even with your idea, the same weapon cannot be equipped to multiple classes. Why? Because the act of switching your weapon changes your class.

So MRD can use Greatswords but no other class can. Otherwise how would you designate which class you wanted to switch to while using the Greatsword? If Gladiator and Marauder could use Greatsword and you switch to Greatsword, how would it know if you want to use Gladiator or Marauder?

It's just a little restrictive. I mean sure they can just add a class for every weapon and then branch jobs from there. It's just slightly frustrating when it could be done so much better. I used to advocate for classes but I've since seen the restrictions of the system.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

Right but even with your idea, the same weapon cannot be equipped to multiple classes. Why? Because the act of switching your weapon changes your class.

So MRD can use Greatswords but no other class can. Otherwise how would you designate which class you wanted to switch to while using the Greatsword? If Gladiator and Marauder could use Greatsword and you switch to Greatsword, how would it know if you want to use Gladiator or Marauder?

It's just a little restrictive. I mean sure they can just add a class for every weapon and then branch jobs from there. It's just slightly frustrating when it could be done so much better. I used to advocate for classes but I've since seen the restrictions of the system.

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The best way i could see a way around this system is to design to seperate "types" of Greatsword. One for the GLA and one for the MRD. Granted not the greatest solution, nor the most inventory friendly, but doable.

The question is what kind of flavor to you add to it to make it more thne That ones GLA, that ones MRD. The way i would to about it is the style of sword. Big heavy rusty and tribal looking, MRD. Shiney silver lighter and sleeker, GLA.

Like i said, not the best solution. but one they could do if they were inclined to have 2 different Jobs use Greatswords from 2 different classes.

[QUOTE=Viritess;661924]The best way i could see a way around this system is to design to seperate "types" of Greatsword. One for the GLA and one for the MRD.


It has been done in ffxi-drk had a similar GS to pld and could be equiped by that only job, only problem i would see is that the weapon lists would rapidly increase as demand for each job type weapon and a crafters nightmare. unless the said weapon came with a slot so you could equip soul stones of that class, hmm 'questable job gear stones sounds like fun'

My vote is "yes" classes are still needed for solo content and doing things like Ifrit runs. For example, you could go BLM to Ifrit, but it helps to sometimes go as THM for added Raise.

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Originally Posted by Lurex

My vote is "yes" classes are still needed for solo content and doing things like Ifrit runs. For example, you could go BLM to Ifrit, but it helps to sometimes go as THM for added Raise.

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That right there is something players should get use to not having. With jobs players need to be more mindful of what is going on, class is easy mode, jobs actually add a challenge and some strategy. Learn to play without raise on every damn job, becareful of hate, again be mindful of whats going on around you. You can solo while useing jobs so there really isnt a need to have a class as well.

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Originally Posted by Maxthunder

That right there is something players should get use to not having. With jobs players need to be more mindful of what is going on, class is easy mode, jobs actually add a challenge and some strategy. Learn to play without raise on every damn job, becareful of hate, again be mindful of whats going on around you. You can solo while useing jobs so there really isnt a need to have a class as well.

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Yes jobs can solo but they run out of steam fast.

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Originally Posted by Maxthunder

That right there is something players should get use to not having. With jobs players need to be more mindful of what is going on, class is easy mode, jobs actually add a challenge and some strategy. Learn to play without raise on every damn job, becareful of hate, again be mindful of whats going on around you. You can solo while useing jobs so there really isnt a need to have a class as well.

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I can certainly see your point, but this doesn't work for pickup groups or groups that are new to doing Ifrit so its just better to go as class. Unless your tanking or whm.

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Originally Posted by Roj

Oh I'm sorry "strawberry blonde" how insensitive of me!

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Still trying to figure out who the fuawk this person is lol.

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Originally Posted by Lurex

I can certainly see your point, but this doesn't work for pickup groups or groups that are new to doing Ifrit so its just better to go as class. Unless your tanking or whm.

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Point is if SE got rid of the class system and just had a job system players would get use to having just the jobs w/o classes. Even in a pickup group I always go as a job, and dont have many issues other than some players not paying attention or not listening.

I'd love for more classes to be available, or at least new weapon types to go along with the current classes.

For example, scythes for Lancers, greatswords for Marauders, etc.

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Originally Posted by Maxthunder

Point is if SE got rid of the class system and just had a job system players would get use to having just the jobs w/o classes. Even in a pickup group I always go as a job, and dont have many issues other than some players not paying attention or not listening.

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Ive yet to see why we need to take out classes. If you wanna go as a job..go as a job.

Scythe for lancer? no comment.

best advice i can give you dont play classes if you think there not needed, but dont get rid of things that are not broken

waste of time , give feedback on inproving class/job system. classes are here to stay. theres plenty of pontential

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Originally Posted by Fionlagh

theres plenty of pontential

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So much potential they poured manhours into a system that clashes with everything the Class system was supposed to represent.

This is my personal opinion only but to me it boils down to two systems we have.

Class: Bland jack of all trades
Jobs: Dynamic specialists.

Hell even the new dev team has gone against the original intent of it making it so many skills are class specific. I only think it's a matter of time before we get a letter from the producer telling us that the class system will be eliminated in favor of more specialized content.

That's what I think though, I'm in no way saying it's what will happen.

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Originally Posted by Zyph

I wasn't really talking about BRD specifically, I was more saying that SOMEONE is nearly guaranteed to be that guy who gets himself killed, and it's usually the Bard (probably due to animation lock or just my experience with the terrible Bards on Sargatanas). And I'm just saying that IF it's the Bard, the Black Mages aren't going to be able to raise him, meaning they better not screw up, which is too much to ask from a pick up group.

I realized I should have been more clear.

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Yeah I used to be "That Guy" when the only 50 I had was lnc/drg. I got locked into a lot of animations when pulling off combos. About 90% of my deaths were during Chaos Thrust animations when a crack popped under me. Been seeing a lot of threads lately with misleading titles making you think if you read this thread your gonna learn about content in the game but instead its a bragging thread. :( maybe I should start a thread with real educational purpose.:confused: But I dont wanna derail this thread so I'll finish with it didn't look like you were attacking bard, the ls I'm in do a lot of primal runs so I don't really mess with pick up groups and the invitation still stands to hop servers.:D

I think my biggest problem with this debate is that people are still thinking in FFXI terms. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, as certain core mechanics of FFXI were fine, but FF is a series that reinvents itself iteration to iteration.

Why does GLD have to lead to DRK in the first place? Why does it need to have a great sword or a scythe? Why can't classes be your standard "freelance" loadout? You don't need to worry about what's in the game. You just need to worry about whether it's fun or not. Otherwise, you're putting a nice big collar and chain on creativity, and that ruins it for everyone.

In my opinion there will be a class that is like some shit of Scout and you gain two possible unlock with it. One that needs it 30 and one that needs it 15.

So DRK requirement will be Scout 15 and Botanist 30 so it have a scythe. And does +30 DMG on Morborl. (THE PLANT ELIMINATOR!)

considering the darksteel gear seems to be class exclusive, I would say the question is moot.

I agree with you OP. I hope Yoshi slowly phases out classes, in 2.0, and goes 100% back to FF type jobs. It will be easier, and just make this mmo 100% Final Fantasy.

....on a side note for the nay sayers. "Job types" is a part of 'Final Fantasy' lore, and as such has nothing to do with FFXI and copying from it. SE has a huge lore base and they made up all their "job types", and should be allowed to transfer them over to any FF IP, as it is part of their franchise. And where better to put "Job types" than in a FF MMO.

I like having Jobs, and think multiple jobs per class would be really cool.

On the other hand I think having class specific gear that jobs cant use (like the new GC weapons) is fuckin stupid.

yeah.. i get that, ive thought the same things myself. my main point was that i dont see the class/job system going anywhere, i just havent seen any signs to the contrary. honest question: have you? i have seen, though,seen evidence that its here to stay, class specific weapons/armor.
so i just feel were better off giving feedback on refinements/improvement on class/job system. i can see you really dont like it though, im not the type to say give up/shut up, so go for it , thats why they gave us this forum..

i did say "waste of time" poor choice of words

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Originally Posted by Akumu

Honestly does it matter if you think the system is wrong or right? The cement has already been placed and hardened. There is no way they are going to dig up a core system(again) and they still have so much more to get done. They also are not going to stack every job on our current classes. There will be more added in the future.

If you don't like classes then only play as one from 1-30 and never look back. Even if you received more likes in your favor, this poll would still go unnoticed by any sane dev. I think Yoshi-P lacks enough sleep as it is.

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2.0 is digging at the core though... you all are in for a surprise when you don't see the same game you are playing now. its gonna be different in some aspects, and they could easily get rid of the class lore wise if they want too

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Originally Posted by lolodin

Scythe for lancer? no comment.

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Meh, it was just the closest link I could make. I just want my scythes back :(

Wow, the results of this thread make me sad.

To everyone who voted on the second option: I hope you enjoy future jobs like Dark Knight being a mere 5 abilities tacked onto Gladiator instead of fully fleshed-out classes. >_<

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Originally Posted by UmJammerSully

Wow, the results of this thread make me sad.

To everyone who voted on the second option: I hope you enjoy future jobs like Dark Knight being a mere 5 abilities tacked onto Gladiator instead of full-blown classes.

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FFXI is that way --->

It's not like it matters anyway. What we have is what they decided to change the old game into. They aren't going to turn around and change it to that extent again. That ship has sailed.

GLD may make a come back pending on how epic this new gear is..

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

FFXI is that way --->

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Originally Posted by UmJammerSully

To everyone who voted on the second option: I hope you enjoy future jobs like Templar being a mere 5 abilities tacked onto Gladiator instead of fully fleshed-out classes. >_<

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There we go. If I use some generic job name that isn't from XI, will you respond properly?

Probably not.

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Originally Posted by UmJammerSully

There we go. If I use some generic job name that isn't from XI, will you respond properly?

Probably not.

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---> Generic MMO is that way

We aren't going to only have the 7 classes (5 DOW/2 DOM) forever. New classes WILL be added. Yoshi P already said that the next CLASS (not job) to be released will be some sort of Mage class because we need more mages. So no worries, there WILL be new types of weapons, Scythes, Daggers, Guns etc.

Jobs will be built out of the New Classes and Current ones...and as the game progresses, Jobs will require more and more base class requirements, making them more complex.

The system is working as intended, and it has potential to be very cool. So worry not, Thiefs, and Redmages...it will all be okay in the end.

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Originally Posted by UmJammerSully

Wow, the results of this thread make me sad.

To everyone who voted on the second option: I hope you enjoy future jobs like Dark Knight being a mere 5 abilities tacked onto Gladiator instead of fully fleshed-out classes.

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Again, this would not be an issue if the ability spread for classes was a little more neutral. I mean, under perfect conditions, if SE removed all shield-related abilities from GLA and gave them to PLD and removed enmity bonuses from sword weapon skills, you could easily build off it by having the PLD crystal give certain skills enmity bonuses and having the crystal grant skills related to shields, and having the DRK crystal give attack bonuses on top of the already higher damage due to them having a great sword equipped along with their own drains, debuffs and whatnot (not to mention, can you imagine how cool Rage of Halone would look like if used with a two-handed sword?).

The thing I lament is that I wasn't around to suggest this back when people were crying about no roles.

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Originally Posted by UmJammerSully

There we go. If I use some generic job name that isn't from XI, will you respond properly?

Probably not.

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Of course my trolling is intentional but I'm also making a point.

FFXIV is FFXIV, why does it have to be like FFXI or <insert another MMO here>? Ppl hate the armoury system simply because its different. That is not a good reason to me. FFXIV has been all about the armoury system from day one. SE was *nice* enough to add jobs into the mix to give us more flavors and stuff to choose. Instead ppl decide they like jobs better because jobs are nostalgic and defined and classes are more flexible and well..not nostalgic.

If DRG was a job, except it was called something else, we wouldnt be having this conversation. They should have named the jobs something entirely different so these complaints would cease and desist.