Which healing job are they gonna gut for Sage?

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Originally Posted by Maltothoris

Thing is, fights were always scripted back then in arr. The thing was we just didn't realize it until I would say til Gordias Savage when you really had to plan out your dps in order to clear A3S and A4S where you needed healer dps to clear those fights back then. Next, we didn't have the plethora of healing ogcds back then as well on short cds, unless you were SCH. A good sch back then with their fairy could have it heal 60-70 percent of the sch's total hps since it was uber strong back then and their dps would usually be double more than that of their partner unless in I think late patch 3.3 when they realized it was better to share the burden of healing for a higher combined total of healer dps.

Even then though I remember the whole buzz of Final Coil being cleared in the first week because of how Savage Second Coil prepped people for it and how healers and tanks were taking more risks in order to do dps.

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Shiva EX IMO was the best fight in ARR. It was scripted, but also incredibly random. If you get nothing but swords, healing was super easy, but if you got nothing but staff...pure chaos. I really loved the fight as a healer for that reason.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

It will be the same situation we have here. Shield Healers will be useful in prog and irrelevant in farm.

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Depends on the stat difference between a content's entry level gear requirements and BiS. Going from a roughly x1.10 power increase for every 10 ilevels to a x1.05 power increase over the same period has a significant influence on how fast content is out geared/overgeared.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

While it a bit random, alot of the damage downs can be mitigated with shields. See e10s where its easier to cheese than do the mechanic correctly.

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See my Astro is OP because of neutral sect post earlier, and the wall mechanic is the dumbest one this tier.

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

WHM wishlist: take lily heals off the gcd, and I am happy.

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WHM lilies being on the GCD is one of the things making the class playable this expansion, since it's a major source of weaving and movement now. Changing them to oGCD's would be a clipping nightmare. The biggest change by far that WHM needs is more weave tools.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

WHM lilies being on the GCD is one of the things making the class playable this expansion, since it's a major source of weaving and movement now. Changing them to oGCD's would be a clipping nightmare. The biggest change by far that WHM needs is more weave tools.

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Or just lower the cast time of Stone, Glare and Broil to 2, 1.75 or 1.5 seconds and every problem is solved. I do not know why the devs are so insistent on keeping Stone, Glare and Broil at 2.5 seconds. The worst that would happen is WHM gains too much mobility and starts doing a ton of damage because it never clip anymore, which who cares? Almost all jobs have mobility now anyway and WHM has no raid utility aside from damage reduction.

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Originally Posted by Arkevorkhat

It's already confirmed to be AST.

During the Live Letter, Yoshida explained that with Endwalker, there will be two "Pure" healers (regen) and two "Shield" healers, and he confirmed that Astrologian will be the second Pure healer.
This means that Nocturnal sect is going to go the way of sword oath.

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I mean it was really no great loss with Sword Oath to be fair.

Has to be AST. They already gutted us WHM for all the role skills.

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Originally Posted by Arkevorkhat

BRD lost cast times.

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That one just put BRD back where they were originally with being able to cast on the move. Bowmage was annoying. BRD did lose the songs that used to have different purposes.

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Originally Posted by Cithaerias_pyropina

Or just lower the cast time of Stone, Glare and Broil to 2, 1.75 or 1.5 seconds and every problem is solved. I do not know why the devs are so insistent on keeping Stone, Glare and Broil at 2.5 seconds. The worst that would happen is WHM gains too much mobility and starts doing a ton of damage because it never clip anymore, which who cares? Almost all jobs have mobility now anyway and WHM has no raid utility aside from damage reduction.

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The devs actually got rid of healer role utility skills like Protect and Stoneskin quite a while ago from how messily they were implemented. Just cast both at the start of an instance and that would pretty much be that. The devs just deleted our versions of them for SB and no one really cared.

I always understood that the fundamental design with healers in FFXIV since 2.0 is that any and all healer DPS in group content is just a bonus. Our DPS options becoming so simplified is just so we can functionally play solo while keeping the focus on our role. It has the side effect of our complaints of healers being boring as DPS also meaning we have fellow players good enough to not need us to break out our larger healing kits. I think the devs would sooner nerf our heal potencies than give us all faster cast times of more damaging spells to keep us engaged.

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Originally Posted by Cithaerias_pyropina

Or just lower the cast time of Stone, Glare and Broil to 2, 1.75 or 1.5 seconds and every problem is solved. I do not know why the devs are so insistent on keeping Stone, Glare and Broil at 2.5 seconds. The worst that would happen is WHM gains too much mobility and starts doing a ton of damage because it never clip anymore, which who cares? Almost all jobs have mobility now anyway and WHM has no raid utility aside from damage reduction.

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Or that, but it would be best if they then took advantage of those weave windows to add a good range of oGCD abilities and dps to weave in, particularly for WHM. Which if they did, could in turn make healer more engaging to play but would be more work to design, so sadly I can't see it happening. I'd rather they didn't just reduce the cooldown time and leave it at that and we're still Glare and Broil spamming into Endwalker.

WHM wouldn't even gain a ton of damage if it never clipped. Top WHM's end fights with maybe 3-4 clips at most which only is a single GCD, yet are still out-damaged by AST and SCH.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

My money is WHM. Still too comfy of a healing job.


And don't say it can't happen. Still weeping over best boy BRD. They looted his natural, rich resources and gave them to Honeybee's newest star resident, Dancer.

Zettai ni urusa nai!

See what you made me do SE? I went full weeabou. Never go full weeabou

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Considering the distinction emphasized will be 'pure healers' vs 'shield healers' I don't see why they'd 'gut' WHM. WHM is already a pretty solid pure healer.. and the only one at that currently. Touching WHM would be the strangest move. No, as others have said and as the Endwalker reveal stream indicated, AST will be the job most affected.

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Originally Posted by Lanadra

Considering the distinction emphasized will be 'pure healers' vs 'shield healers' I don't see why they'd 'gut' WHM. WHM is already a pretty solid pure healer.. and the only one at that currently. Touching WHM would be the strangest move. No, as others have said and as the Endwalker reveal stream indicated, AST will be the job most affected.

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And even then it's likely they'll just lose Nocturnal and Neutral Sect, as they have a solid kit with minimal shields without them.

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Originally Posted by Cithaerias_pyropina

Or just lower the cast time of Stone, Glare and Broil to 2, 1.75 or 1.5 seconds and every problem is solved. I do not know why the devs are so insistent on keeping Stone, Glare and Broil at 2.5 seconds. The worst that would happen is WHM gains too much mobility and starts doing a ton of damage because it never clip anymore, which who cares? Almost all jobs have mobility now anyway and WHM has no raid utility aside from damage reduction.

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And further homogenize the healers...

Astros will be dead. No more shields for when youre teamed up with a white mage. Now just 2 idiots competing for HOTs unless they make them stackable. Its pretty sad and pathetic that they need to ruin an entire class just to make the new one seem cooler

My guess is scholar and white mage will mostly stay the same aside from the customary 2-3 new spells and bit of trimming

My guess at the moment is the diurnal side of astro will be getting buffed quite a bit to be more on par with white mage while losing nocturnal or maybe just diurnal/nocturnal will do something else entirely while the base kit is all HoT based

Thinking atm white mage and scholar will be worked to be the "raw output" healers while astro and sage will be the party buffer type stuff

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Originally Posted by Chaletamale

Astros will be dead. No more shields for when youre teamed up with a white mage. Now just 2 idiots competing for HOTs unless they make them stackable. Its pretty sad and pathetic that they need to ruin an entire class just to make the new one seem cooler

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Most ASTs go Diurnal with WHM anyway, because the regens DO stack.

I think what might happen with Nocturnal, is it turns regens into pure heals.
So Aspected Benefic will be 200 potency with a regen in Diurnal, or just a flat 700 potency heal in Nocturnal.
I also hope they turn Diurnal/Nocturnal into a toggle that uses the same button, and can be switched between mid-battle.

That might actually add a new dynamic to AST, rather than 'gutting it' to make room for Sage.
This way, you'd go Diurnal with WHM because WHM has the strongest pure heals. But going Nocturnal would allow you to emulate the healing strength of a WHM when you're with SCH/Sage.

But there's the possibility they just remove Nocturnal as a sect, and it instead becomes some buff on cooldown that adds a weak shield on top of the regen from Aspected spells.

The real worry is how they're going to manage a Scholar + Sage set up.
Will both of them have something like Scholar's Catalyse, where half the shields stack and half of them don't?

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Originally Posted by Chaletamale

Astros will be dead. No more shields for when youre teamed up with a white mage. Now just 2 idiots competing for HOTs unless they make them stackable. Its pretty sad and pathetic that they need to ruin an entire class just to make the new one seem cooler

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ASTs already barely touch Nocturnal even with a WHM. It's going to change virtually nothing about the job.

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

ASTs already barely touch Nocturnal even with a WHM. It's going to change virtually nothing about the job.

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And the ones that do are the ones who run Noct with a SCH and actively get angry if you ask them to switch or when the SCH just casts their own shields. Had an interesting CoT where I didn't even bother asking the Noct to change because I didn't want a fight when we're doing such easy content and they still went out of their way to overwrite my shields every time I got a Succor off. Even tested it when no damage was outgoing for awhile and every time they'd immediately Helios. Every. Single. Time. It was hilarious but it pretty much summed up my experience with the majority of pure Noct users on my data center.

That said I do hope they don't gut AST too badly with Noct's removal. However given their track record I'm not holding my breath. Historically one or more healers always starts an expansion at a severe disadvantage.

Really what I'd really like is a soft SCH rework as the class is fairly clunky at the moment given how little SE understands how it works. But I also get that asking for that is like wishing on a monkey's paw. You're always going to regret it.

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Originally Posted by Chaletamale

Astros will be dead. No more shields for when youre teamed up with a white mage. Now just 2 idiots competing for HOTs unless they make them stackable. Its pretty sad and pathetic that they need to ruin an entire class just to make the new one seem cooler

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HoTs already stack and always have. Double shields will be so much worse since shields have never stacked (well, Stoneskin and Galvanize stacked but Stoneskin wasn't easily spammable.)

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Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

HoTs already stack and always have. Double shields will be so much worse since shields have never stacked (well, Stoneskin and Galvanize stacked but Stoneskin wasn't easily spammable.)

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Ah, Stoneskin, I miss you so much. Put Adlo and Stoneskin on a WAR before a tankbuster and just... laugh

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Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

HoTs already stack and always have. Double shields will be so much worse since shields have never stacked (well, Stoneskin and Galvanize stacked but Stoneskin wasn't easily spammable.)

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Perhaps this is something they'll change?
Granted, they're pushing for 1 pure/1 shield comps, but I don't see how they could entertain the idea of any comp being viable without them stacking.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Perhaps this is something they'll change?
Granted, they're pushing for 1 pure/1 shield comps, but I don't see how they could entertain the idea of any comp being viable without them stacking.

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I think people are a little too hopeful. We're already aware SE doesn't play a lot of healers or have any real interest in their gameplay. They only brought back energy drain for SCHs because we kicked and screamed about it.

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

I think people are a little too hopeful. We're already aware SE doesn't play a lot of healers or have any real interest in their gameplay. They only brought back energy drain for SCHs because we kicked and screamed about it.

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Then let's kick and scream harder > : )
Maybe then they'll get a dedicated healer on the design team.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Then let's kick and scream harder > : )
Maybe then they'll get a dedicated healer on the design team.

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Healers grab your piety materia, we're going to throw them at the doors of SE HQ until our voices are heard!

Shields don't stack because it'd be super OP in way that HoT stacking is not. Regens are extra healing while shields are extra max HP. If shields stacked a lot of mechanics could be ignored completely as effective HP would be so much higher.

I think a lot of people are way too optimistic about AST. Experience makes me believe that all they will do is lock AST into diurnal and call it a day, no new skills other than the ones gained after 80 and no reworks except maybe some potency changes.

Yeah. It's weird to see people so excited and optimistic about healer changes. Every single expansion launch to date has been an absolute disaster for healers. Clearly no one on the dev team has ever actually played a healer before because that's the only explanation I can think of to explain it all.

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Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

Yeah. It's weird to see people so excited and optimistic about healer changes. Every single expansion launch to date has been an absolute disaster for healers. Clearly no one on the dev team has ever actually played a healer before because that's the only explanation I can think of to explain it all.

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People in this thread are excited while healers who have lived through the SB/ShB healer "improvements" are like

https://i.imgur.com/6EsGCUl.png

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Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

Yeah. It's weird to see people so excited and optimistic about healer changes. Every single expansion launch to date has been an absolute disaster for healers. Clearly no one on the dev team has ever actually played a healer before because that's the only explanation I can think of to explain it all.

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And it hasn't gotten better recently either. Like the changes a couple patches ago where they nerfed Energy Drain because the dev team was unhappy that SCH's were using it for the majority of their Aetherflow stacks instead of it's intended purpose of being used for healing. Instead of, you know, trying to understand why the class is being predominantly playing in an antithetical way to it's intended design they simply doubled down on their skewed perceptions. They legitimately have no idea what they're doing.

It makes me wonder... if healing is only just getting worse and worse... what would it take for those unhappy with it to finally drop it?

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Originally Posted by Enla

And it hasn't gotten better recently either. Like the changes a couple patches ago where they nerfed Energy Drain because the dev team was unhappy that SCH's were using it for the majority of their Aetherflow stacks instead of it's intended purpose of being used for healing. Instead of, you know, trying to understand why the class is being predominantly playing in an antithetical way to it's intended design they simply doubled down on their skewed perceptions. They legitimately have no idea what they're doing.

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It doesn't help that most encounters we don't have to heal outside of specific moments that are so timed to where we could never have time without a stack because it's that easy. At this point they'd be better off removing Aetherflow from SCH, turning the Fairy Gauge into our resource management, and changing Aetherflow costs to Fairy Gauge costs, where each heal by the fairy fills it slowly. Because at that point it's better design, the Fairy Gauge isn't useless, and overall keeps to our tactical roots, especially if Energy Drain has a hefty price attached to it (should they rebuff it and keep it) to turn it into a true high risk high reward move.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Or that, but it would be best if they then took advantage of those weave windows to add a good range of oGCD abilities and dps to weave in, particularly for WHM.

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If only. But adding cooldowns to healers that deal direct damage seems like total heresy to the devs. Oh, how it would be more fun to see healers have many more abilities like Assize (but without the healing portion).

I honestly feel WHM and Sage will get short end of the stick and SCH/AST will be fine.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

It makes me wonder... if healing is only just getting worse and worse... what would it take for those unhappy with it to finally drop it?

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6.0: we're removing your one dot, and your one dps skill will have its potency increased but now has a cooldown to compensate. Also Holy no longer stuns

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Originally Posted by Allegor

6.0: we're removing your one dot, and your one dps skill will have its potency increased but now has a cooldown to compensate. Also Holy no longer stuns

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This will pretty much be what makes me drop healing outside of my static. I can grit my teeth and bear with our current state but any more of this and I'll switch classes entirely, queues be damned.

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Originally Posted by Allegor

6.0: we're removing your one dot, and your one dps skill will have its potency increased but now has a cooldown to compensate. Also Holy no longer stuns

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Originally Posted by Enla

This will pretty much be what makes me drop healing outside of my static. I can grit my teeth and bear with our current state but any more of this and I'll switch classes entirely, queues be damned.

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Wow so it would actually take a lot to make you quit then.
Short of having healers designed to literally stand there and do nothing people'll just grit their teeth and keep with it, huh.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Wow so it would actually take a lot to make you quit then.
Short of having healers designed to literally stand there and do nothing people'll just grit their teeth and keep with it, huh.

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Healers are masochists by trade after all.

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Originally Posted by Enla

Healers are masochists by trade after all.

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In a perfect world, they'd learn to synergize a healer's dps and healing toolkit. I look at the damage of assize and earthly star and thing.. how novel. Damage and healing working in tandem. Made me feel hopeful for the future that they might make healer kits more active and interesting. I was a fool. I'm still a fool, since I am still hopeful.

Healers are sadists, we have the power to doom runs by our whims. We decide who lives and dies. The less we're able to do outside of healing, the more we'll play the "HP game", where we see how low we can get your health before we have to actually heal you before you die.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Healers are sadists, we have the power to doom runs by our whims. We decide who lives and dies. The less we're able to do outside of healing, the more we'll play the "HP game", where we see how low we can get your health before we have to actually heal you before you die.

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Sometimes, our healers like to play "Swap the Melee": when we have to divide into Light Parties and stack, they just... Swap the Melee. The screams are a symphony to my ears.

I also liked to Swap spots with a random person right before Suzaku's DDR phase... it's so much fun...