8 man endgame content should go back to the 2.x method (no baby mode) Hear me out...

I think a lot of people in this thread are contradicting their own point.

If you have no problem absorbing the story through youtube, then what does it matter if "story mode" is tied to savage? OP and plenty of people love the reward of story as well as loot from difficult encounters, and there's something kinda meh about having to go through the trivial version before unlocking savage.

If we're talking about choice here, people who want to digest the story as a reward from a challenging fight don't get one. We are forced to do the story-mode version first.

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

If you have no problem absorbing the story through youtube, then what does it matter if "story mode" is tied to savage? OP and plenty of people love the reward of story as well as loot from difficult encounters, and there's something kinda meh about having to go through the trivial version before unlocking savage.

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"Just Youtube the story" - I'm sure SE would love for 80+% of XIV's sub's to unsubscribe to the game to 'just youtube' the story. I mean, why pay $15/month sub to a game that focuses on a personal story (ie We're the main hero of the story, the story revolves around our struggles to save everyone) when you'll not be able to experience said story due to how difficult the fights are to get through to experience said story... might as well just watch it for free via youtube, and never have to worry about $50 expansions or $15/month subs.

Can't disagree more.

Having come from an MMO background that had playstyle ceilings involving gear and lore, I am happy to leave those days behind me. That sort of mentality leads to your game becoming niche and only catering to one or two certain playstyles. That's a surefire way to kill a game. EverQuest and EverQuest II might still be holding on after about 22 and 17 years respectively, but neither of those games are thriving. They have insular communities with a setup very unfriendly to new players (though EQII does better at it) because the game style drove away other types of players.

I remember when the Kunark expansion of EQII came out, content in the beta was so tuned to being a challenge to the raid community that we couldn't complete the SOLO questlines in the zones. We told them this. They still pushed it live. And had to do some massive emergency changes because people were just leaving. Why would soloers stay when they couldn't even do their own content?

Oh and let's not forget the hue and cry with Wrath of the Lich King in WoW when you spend the entire expansion invested in the story and you can't finish it because it's locked behind a raid. And they had the gall to give non-raiders a cutscene connected to a statue. People were PISSED and rightly so.

There are already special McGuffins for those who do Savage and Ultimate. Screwing non-raiders, who let's be real here are probably the ones who care more about the story, over just to give raiders even more exclusive shinies is just going to drive those players away. And if raiders aren't motivated by the challenge of the content enough, that sounds like a "them" problem. Not something the game needs to change itself and alienate entire playerbases to cater to.

Also, atma/anima/relic/resistance whatever you want to call it, is supposed to be the non-raider way to get a final weapon. Locking it behind Savage would be completely illogical.

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Originally Posted by Kamatsu

"Just Youtube the story" - I'm sure SE would love for 80+% of XIV's sub's to unsubscribe to the game to 'just youtube' the story. I mean, why pay $15/month sub to a game that focuses on a personal story (ie We're the main hero of the story, the story revolves around our struggles to save everyone) when you'll not be able to experience said story due to how difficult the fights are to get through to experience said story... might as well just watch it for free via youtube, and never have to worry about $50 expansions or $15/month subs.

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You clearly didn't read my post or read earlier replies from people saying just what I posted. Now check again where I said I wanted choice, not a removal.

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

I think a lot of people in this thread are contradicting their own point.

If you have no problem absorbing the story through youtube, then what does it matter if "story mode" is tied to savage? OP and plenty of people love the reward of story as well as loot from difficult encounters, and there's something kinda meh about having to go through the trivial version before unlocking savage.

If we're talking about choice here, people who want to digest the story as a reward from a challenging fight don't get one. We are forced to do the story-mode version first.

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I wonder how SE's going to be advertising that indeed.. ''story? just look it up on youtube, the raiders want their story locked to savage''. Can go right up there with ''we have system for those who can't always be online with Xbox One.. it's called the Xbox 360''.

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Originally Posted by Lanadra

I wonder how SE's going to be advertising that indeed.. ''story? just look it up on youtube, the raiders want their story locked to savage''. Can go right up there with ''we have system for those who can't always be online with Xbox One.. it's called the Xbox 360''.

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Seems content is as hard as reading comprehension on this forum.

I kid but please point to me on my post where I said "just watch it on YT" and not "There are people in this thread who said they have no problem absorbing the story through YT and don't want to do savage."

Merely pointing out that is not a good argument for the cause.


Anyway: decouple doing normal to unlock savage and make both parties happy.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

think id rather mix of the two
use the design philosophy of Coils but also have savage and normal mode

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I'd kill for actual large RAID type areas instead of just the bosses. Coil was really memorable for that reason. Though never again a T3, unless it has an actual boss at the end.

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

Locking glamour behind content is a great way to encourage engagement.

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huum...no, it isnt. I know that players would like something fresh and new, but locking glamour is not the way to go. Im my opinion. If i rmember right, galmour plates were locked behind a crafting profession progress, its not like that now-a-days.

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

I think a lot of people in this thread are contradicting their own point.

If you have no problem absorbing the story through youtube, then what does it matter if "story mode" is tied to savage? OP and plenty of people love the reward of story as well as loot from difficult encounters, and there's something kinda meh about having to go through the trivial version before unlocking savage.

If we're talking about choice here, people who want to digest the story as a reward from a challenging fight don't get one. We are forced to do the story-mode version first.

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You’re just being an elitist.

Why does it matter to you if someone else gets to experience the story or not? Does it make you feel special? That’s what your mounts and titles are for.

I mean raiders really need to remember that they are a tiny minority of this player base. I know many come from WoW or whatever but final fantasy is first and foremost a casual story focused RPG.

Why on Earth would they lock most of their player base out of the story just so you can feel special? It’s a stupid idea. As if you’re telling people to go watch YouTube...

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Originally Posted by Vickii

You’re just being an elitist.

Why does it matter to you if someone else gets to experience the story or not? Does it make you feel special? That’s what your mounts and titles are for.

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

You clearly didn't read my post or read earlier replies from people saying just what I posted. Now check again where I said I wanted choice, not a removal.

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

Seems content is as hard as reading comprehension on this forum.

I kid but please point to me on my post where I said "just watch it on YT" and not "There are people in this thread who said they have no problem absorbing the story through YT and don't want to do savage."

Merely pointing out that is not a good argument for the cause.


Anyway: decouple doing normal to unlock savage and make both parties happy.

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Anyway let us do savage without doing normal, please <3

You know what would be the ultimate elitist experience?: Buy a ps5 made of Pure Gold, with crystals leds. XD Shine like you mean it!

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

Anyway let us do savage without doing normal, please <3

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That was never the point of this thread. And you seem to be twisting your original comments to make you not look like a special snowflake.

But sure, if you want to wait the extra week I don’t see why normal has to be a pre-req of savage. Seems very silly though, you literally just have to do it one time and I doubt many would wait with you.

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Originally Posted by Vickii

That was never the point of this thread. And you seem to be twisting your original comments to make you not look like a special snowflake.

But sure, if you want to wait the extra week I don’t see why normal has to be a pre-req of savage. Seems very silly though, you literally just have to do it one time and I doubt many would wait with you.

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You still haven't read what they said. :rolleyes:

In any case, LisSquid, I'm someone who has absolutely no problem watching stuff via YouTube, *but* I like unlocking things and storylines and seeing *my* character interacting. It's a bit selfish, I'll admit ahah. I think a healthy medium would be the option of unlocking via normal OR savage mode? Giving the option for both communities, the casual playerbase which makes up the majority and the raiders which make up the minority, this way everyone feels as though they can unlock content with the level of difficulty they are comfortable with?

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Originally Posted by Vickii

That was never the point of this thread. And you seem to be twisting your original comments to make you not look like a special snowflake.

But sure, if you want to wait the extra week I don’t see why normal has to be a pre-req of savage. Seems very silly though, you literally just have to do it one time and I doubt many would wait with you.

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I did change my tune from my first thread, yes. I personally play MMOs to play with others to work through challenges and experience the story together. It's natural to me to want to encourage others to experience what has brought me so much joy since the early days of Ultima Online. You will see in my first response to this thread: That just isn't the want of most western mmo players. I do say Western as JP servers seem to have a much larger participation in savage/ex/ultimate.

You and others were twisting my later post, however. Like I said, I think story is more of a reward than gear. Someone had mentioned Wrath, and it was a challenge! Seeing the ending of ICC after the euphoria of overcoming such a difficult fight had everyone screaming and hollering in VC together. It was so much more to me than just crashing through it in a neutered story mode.

I can remember the moment, the feeling, the experience of it. Can't say the same for FFXIV content since that was not something I was ever given the option to experience.

Which is why you are right! I am a human being with complex feelings with opinions that can change when observing others share their own opinions and feelings. I feel OP on them wanting to feel the rewards of a story driven mmo in the way they see fit, just as you and others want the story mode dungeons.

You want to argue it's not the same watching it on YT then please understand it's not the same to me if I don't have to fight for it.

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Originally Posted by MilkieTea

In any case, LisSquid, I'm someone who has absolutely no problem watching stuff via YouTube, *but* I like unlocking things and storylines and seeing *my* character interacting. It's a bit selfish, I'll admit ahah. I think a healthy medium would be the option of unlocking via normal OR savage mode? Giving the option for both communities, the casual playerbase which makes up the majority and the raiders which make up the minority, this way everyone feels as though they can unlock content with the level of difficulty they are comfortable with?

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That seems to be the best way, honestly! I know the group of lorebuffs I roll with really feel put off by it.

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

Someone had mentioned Wrath, and it was a challenge! Seeing the ending of ICC after the euphoria of overcoming such a difficult fight had everyone screaming and hollering in VC together. It was so much more to me than just crashing through it in a neutered story mode.

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It was me. And fine that you got your payoff for the expansion. Now imagine being someone who had that same marketing showing the big bad Arthas and all the quest lines in the zones leading to finally confronting him, and then....nope, fuck you, thanks for your money but you have to raid to finish the expansion.

Then they doubled down on the slap in the face by putting in that statue that showed the cutscene only a select few ever got to see in game.

One of the reasons I play this game is because they don't pull the bullshit I saw in EverQuest, in EverQuest II, in WoW, in Star Wars Galaxies, even to a certain extent in the CoX games. I enjoyed raiding in EQ but I never liked that there was so much of the experience that was only available to us because we raided. When MMOs started going away from this design, I was more than happy to go along with it. Wanting to exclude people from an experience just because you think you're better than they are at a video game is selfish and entitled.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Wanting to exclude people from an experience just because you think you're better than they are at a video game is selfish and entitled.

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

You clearly didn't read my post or read earlier replies from people saying just what I posted. Now check again where I said I wanted choice, not a removal.

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hello??? Please I'm begging people to read my posts.

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

hello??? Please I'm begging people to read my posts.

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This is insane it was literally right above where they commented- it would've taken all of 1 minute to read where you quoted and agreed with me saying the choice to do either would be best-

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Originally Posted by MilkieTea

This is insane it was literally right above where they commented- it would've taken all of 1 minute to read where you quoted and agreed with me saying the choice to do either would be best-

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Now you're imbalancing Savage and Normal by letting Savage have extra rewards *and* bypass the normal story progression. One equalizer in this game is we all have to take the same path if we want something. What you're proposing still sounds like wanting special treatment because you don't want to do the regular path, only your own special version.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Now you're imbalancing Savage and Normal by letting Savage have extra rewards *and* bypass the normal story progression. One equalizer in this game is we all have to take the same path if we want something. What you're proposing still sounds like wanting special treatment because you don't want to do the regular path, only your own special version.

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How? Like it's been said the number of people in savage is small. Why do you need savage gear if you're not doing savage? If you just want the story then normal is there. It's allowing people the choice on how they want to engage with the story which is important. You will lose nothing, and raiders will get to engage with it in a pace they want.

Like it or not, those people exist and to put your foot down over something as silly as a different path through the msq is, dare I say it, selfish ;)

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

How? Like it's been said the number of people in savage is small. Why do you need savage gear if you're not doing savage? If you just want the story then normal is there. It's allowing people the choice on how they want to engage with the story which is important. You will lose nothing, and raiders will get to engage with it in a pace they want.

Like it or not, those people exist and to put your foot down over something as silly as a different path through the msq is, dare I say it, selfish ;)

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Everyone has to unlock 8 man story in Normal mode. There's no special treatment. Everyone follows the same process. It doesn't matter what playstyle you normally have. The Normal mode raids requirements are universal. Allowing only Savage raiders an alternate path to that process is special treatment to a certain playstyle. Predominantly solo players don't get a solo instance, or groups don't get a 4 man instance. Everyone has to do the normal 8 man raid. So either they make it possible for all playstyles to bypass the regular requirements or they keep them in place for everyone.

You forget that solo players get solo options for most things, now. It's also an mmo. Playing with others is in the genre. You seem more bent out of shape because you feel like raiders somehow get something extra, and it's true! It's because raiders coordinate times and strategies to overcome challenging content. Unlocking the story via savage does not remove your progression through normal. It does not remove your normal loot. You'll never see these people because they will be in savage :)

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

You forget that solo players get solo options for most things, now. It's also an mmo. Playing with others is in the genre. You seem more bent out of shape because you feel like raiders somehow get something extra, and it's true! It's because raiders coordinate times and strategies to overcome challenging content. Unlocking the story via savage does not remove your progression through normal. It does not remove your normal loot. You'll never see these people because they will be in savage :)

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Raiders *already* get something extra in exclusive phases, exclusive bosses, exclusive song drops, exclusive mounts, and exclusive gear. It's not going to kill them to do Normal mode like everyone else for the story. Soloers make the choice to join with 7 others in a raid to see the story. Groupers join 4 more people in a raid to see the story. Savage raiders have to put up with being bored to see the story. Everyone gives up something from their normal playstyle to gain something else. It's equally balanced.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Now you're imbalancing Savage and Normal by letting Savage have extra rewards *and* bypass the normal story progression. One equalizer in this game is we all have to take the same path if we want something. What you're proposing still sounds like wanting special treatment because you don't want to do the regular path, only your own special version.

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How? They still would progress the exact same, just with savage content instead. The option to only do savage content would be there for those who only want to do savage vers of normal content - it's harder, therefore OBVIOUSLY they'd get savage gear, just like they do now? Only difference would be that they progress through the story with savage content vs normal content.

Perhaps they could unlock normal content just like how normal-content players unlock savage content, or a similar way? Allowing raiders the option to just do raids for their content literally screws no one over, just provides the OPTION to go at whichever pace suits you.

Edit: also they wouldn't be bypassing normal story progression - just progressing with different difficulty. Same way how solo instances allow you to progress through the instance with a "Very Easy" mode.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Savage raiders have to put up with being bored to see the story.

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So you agree that for some people having no other option than to see the story in normal isn't rewarding?

They added trusts for the solo player, they can let raiders to savage for the story if they wanted to.

I don't think it's a case of watching the story, we just skip it rushing the normal floors down and get straight into Savage around 30+ mins. If your group is aiming Week 1, don't have time for it.

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

It's also an mmo. Playing with others is in the genre.

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I was wondering just how long it would be for this tired old nonsense argument to surface. I'm actually surprised it took this long. Yes, XIV is a MMO - Massive (yes) Multiplayer (yes) Online (yes) RPG (yes) - It's not a MMPWOMORPG (Massive Must Play With Others Multiplayer Online RPG) game. Casuals, solo players, crafter's, etc interact with players each and everyday - they chat in cities, they buy/sell off the MB, they craft things for ppl, they do FATES's with other ppl.

Go back to what I said about WoW - the most well known and famous "MMO" - the vast majority of it's players played SOLO. The vast majority were ppl who quested, crafted, gathered, chatted in cities, played on the MB, etc while SOLO. Yes there were still plenty who grouped with friends/Guildies for dungeons, some questing, role-playing, etc... but the vast majority of ppl played solo.

You know why WoW was so successful? It's because it combined a known lore franchise, was a continuation of a known game franchise, came from a known & respected company (at the time), and was the 1st major accessible MMO where people did NOT have to group up, they could experience 90% of the whole game without being forced to group up. There is a reason why Hunter's were the highest populated class in WoW for many, many years - this was because it was the simplest class to play, and the easiest class to do stuff solo with... you had a pet to tank mobs, you could keep the pet heal.ed easy enough with Mend Pet, and you could frankly auto-attack and kill mobs.
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Yes I realize/know that ppl are forced into groups throughout XIV to progress the MSQ, as well as to experience side-content. However the fact is the base level of difficulty that they are required to go through for this content is typically fairly easy (yes, there are exceptions). I mean really, it should take an experienced group of raiders all of what... an hour max to blitze through all the normal raids? Oh noes... you have to deal with a *yawn* 1 hour or so. Pffft.

I'm sure I'll get the "You're not reading my post" response. *shrugs* I'm just tired of seeing the nonsense "It's an MMO" rubbish pulled out by ppl pushing for things like harder normal, harder MSQ, locking lore & story behind savage raid content, etc. Cuz yes, it happens just about every time this type of push happens... someone brings out the "It's an MMO, ppl should be interacting and solo is bad / too easy / too frequent / etc!" type of comment.

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Originally Posted by Kamatsu

You know why WoW was so successful? It's because it combined a known lore franchise, was a continuation of a known game franchise, came from a known & respected company (at the time), and was the 1st major accessible MMO where people did NOT have to group up, they could experience 90% of the whole game without being forced to group up. There is a reason why Hunter's were the highest populated class in WoW for many, many years - this was because it was the simplest class to play, and the easiest class to do stuff solo with... you had a pet to tank mobs, you could keep the pet heal.ed easy enough with Mend Pet, and you could frankly auto-attack and kill mobs.
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Wow those are so rose tinted glasses. Need I link the thousands of old "why vanilla was great" threads saying so because it encouraged community through making the solo experience difficult? The class quests (warlock comes to mind) that needed a full party to take you through?

That aside: they added trusts so that solo players do not need to group. Perhaps one day they will add it to trials and older content.

Perhaps they will let raiders skip normal and go straight to Savage like every other game. Its all about choices and preference. I don't use trusts unless I'm doing laundry and want to farm pets and glamour. You can run all the dungeons with trusts exclusively and that means nothing to me.

I humor you and say, yes, you are still not reading my posts. Who knew wanting alternative options for different people meant I wanted to lock the story away only for me?

Edit: also while it is hard to determine how many people cleared content on WoW before AoTC, you can tell that participation isn't small enough to even say that solo players dominate the game. You can even see key clears, which are arguably more difficult on higher tiers, have more participation than raiding. Definitely not a "solo" experience.

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

I am of the personal belief that if we corralled people into tough content, it would be ROUGH for a while. I mean, really rough. People can't wrap their heads about meteors in CT.. However, I think it would improve overall player skill by saying "This is the content. This is what we expect from you, and we expect you to do it."

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You have no idea what you're talking about.

Square Enix already tried that in Final Fantasy XI, which was notoriously difficult. The end result is that within nine months of launch, 90% of the people on my friend list had quit the game, and many, many more were in the beta for World of Warcraft and evangelizing to everyone who would listen about how they should quit FFXI and try this new, up-and-coming MMO.

FFXI continued to thrive despite the birth of WOW, but it lost massive numbers of people, because as it turns out, if you make the player skill bar too high to jump, people will quit the game rather than improve their skills in order to jump it. They will quit en masse, such that, the few people who played FFXI from beginning and over some long period of time thereafter, look at each other with a kind of astonishment.

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

I did change my tune from my first thread, yes. I personally play MMOs to play with others to work through challenges and experience the story together. It's natural to me to want to encourage others to experience what has brought me so much joy since the early days of Ultima Online. You will see in my first response to this thread: That just isn't the want of most western mmo players. I do say Western as JP servers seem to have a much larger participation in savage/ex/ultimate.

You and others were twisting my later post, however. Like I said, I think story is more of a reward than gear. Someone had mentioned Wrath, and it was a challenge! Seeing the ending of ICC after the euphoria of overcoming such a difficult fight had everyone screaming and hollering in VC together. It was so much more to me than just crashing through it in a neutered story mode.

I can remember the moment, the feeling, the experience of it. Can't say the same for FFXIV content since that was not something I was ever given the option to experience.

Which is why you are right! I am a human being with complex feelings with opinions that can change when observing others share their own opinions and feelings. I feel OP on them wanting to feel the rewards of a story driven mmo in the way they see fit, just as you and others want the story mode dungeons.

You want to argue it's not the same watching it on YT then please understand it's not the same to me if I don't have to fight for it.

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Yes but this playing a game like a job and building a social team is what you want to do. Can’t force it on others.

If you really don’t want to see the story in normal mode, then simply skip the cutscene.

It comes down to wanting to control the content for other people, and again you are not special or entitled to more because you choose to do savage raiding anymore than a saint of the firmament should get an ishgard house ahead of you because they choose to craft... although you could actually make a stronger point for that.

In fact why not lock the next lore heavy stuff behind a huge botany grind? It makes just as much sense as what you are all proposing and there’s far more BTN than savage raiders xD

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Raiders *already* get something extra in exclusive phases, exclusive bosses, exclusive song drops, exclusive mounts, and exclusive gear. It's not going to kill them to do Normal mode like everyone else for the story. Soloers make the choice to join with 7 others in a raid to see the story. Groupers join 4 more people in a raid to see the story. Savage raiders have to put up with being bored to see the story. Everyone gives up something from their normal playstyle to gain something else. It's equally balanced.

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Ironically, several raiders, myself included, would prefer Savage to be unlockable without having to complete Normal and without any story. Why? So we can later go back and watch the story unfold without having to rush through it for week 1. Putting said story in Savage just means we'll skip it since the whole purpose of Savage isn't story but doing challenging battle content. Look no further than E8S. What was the biggest complaint besides Light Rampant? Her minute long cut-scene before going into second phase.

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Originally Posted by Floortank

Square Enix already tried that in Final Fantasy XI, which was notoriously difficult. The end result is that within nine months of launch, 90% of the people on my friend list had quit the game, and many, many more were in the beta for World of Warcraft and evangelizing to everyone who would listen about how they should quit FFXI and try this new, up-and-coming MMO.

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They've tried it in this game, too.

*insert Will Smith 'tada' meme, but labeled "EUREKA"*

Now, I love Eureka. Being potentially murdered by a mob I was dumb enough to aggro on my own makes me weirdly nostalgic. But I recognize that I am not in the majority. And there are a lot of people who, when corralled into tough content in order to progress their relic weapons, decided that they did not in fact need to progress their relic weapons and noped out.

And this is not unique to 'casual' players; I know plenty of savage raiders -- including the bulk of my own static -- who are Not Best Pleased we learned with the 5.45 patch notes that the next stage of this current relic weapon is gated behind the Bozjan "Castrum Lacus Litore" duty, which itself is gated behind grinding Bozja content in order to attain rank 10 in the first place. They do not like Bozja content. They do not want to do Bozja content. They are now mulling over whether they actually want to progress their relic weapons further if it requires Bozja content.

And these are people who are, y'know, savage raiders, so it's not like "this content is not a faceroll" would be a major factor in their dislike.

(I am personally fine with doing Bozja for my relic, because I also like Bozja. But we established with my previous Eureka statement that I may actually be functionally insane when it comes to my tastes in content.)

But moreover, I would suggest that the bulk of the playerbase by numbers plays this game for the story. And if locking purely optional things like relic weapons behind content that's not as popular earns ire and grumbling and rants on Reddit, imagine locking the primary selling point of a game behind content only a few people will ever do. There would be literal riots; the game may not have destructible environments, but players would find a way to destroy Limsa to show their outrage.

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Originally Posted by Vickii

If you really don’t want to see the story in normal mode, then simply skip the cutscene.

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To be fair, LisSquid isn't (so far as I can tell) saying "I don't want to see the story in normal mode", but rather saying "I do not want to have to touch normal mode at all, but I still want the story." I.e., allowing you to have the story without having to touch normal mode. Which is something I can understand; since I got into savage raiding last tier, I have come to find the normal raids Extremely Dull. And I'm hardly the best or most experienced raider around; I like to describe myself as 'tolerably competent', or 'more of an asset than a detriment'.

I know a number of more casual players who have real trouble with normal raids when they're current content; if, as LisSquid says, forcing folks to rise to a certain level of performance before they can unlock things would motivate them to improve, then having folks go through the normal mode to unlock savage -- and having folks go through savage to unlock ultimate -- serves precisely that purpose. If you want to set foot in savage, you need to improve to the point you can get through the normal raids. (Which, admittedly, is a pretty low bar and doesn't take a lot of practice/improvement.) If you want to set foot in ultimate, you need to improve to the point that you can get through the savage raids.

Blasting through the normal raids quickly when a new tier comes out is not, honestly, that onerous; if you want the same story unlockable via savage so as to skip normal, I don't see much point to it. (Any more than you should be able to skip to later tiers of relic weapons without completing the earlier ones, or queue right into Ultimate content without ever setting foot in Savage once.)

And if you want the story to differ when unlocked via savage (thus making lore/story a 'unique reward'), I think that'd become a headache quickly if they ever wanted to refer back to older raids in main scenario content -- which they have done this expansion, after all. Because unless you made the story functionally similar or the callbacks extremely vague, they'd have to start producing story content that was more branching and varied, which sounds neat at first but quickly compounds into a nightmarish game-state headache as you progress expansion to expansion.

(Now, if the argument is that it'd be nice for folks to start the race for world first on a savage tier without having to skip the story attached to the normal raids, that's an entirely different matter. But I'd point out that there've been a number of threads on that topic suggesting solutions, including delaying savage tiers slightly after the patch just like they do at expansion launch. And also that if you could skip to savage without doing normal, people in the world-first race would just skip the story in savage as well, because they want to get started as early as possible.)

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Ironically, several raiders, myself included, would prefer Savage to be unlockable without having to complete Normal and without any story. Why? So we can later go back and watch the story unfold without having to rush through it for week 1. Putting said story in Savage just means we'll skip it since the whole purpose of Savage isn't story but doing challenging battle content. Look no further than E8S. What was the biggest complaint besides Light Rampant? Her minute long cut-scene before going into second phase.

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That's actually a very good point!Perhaps a toggle option for it? Or have the option for "I have already seen this, skip it" as an option from the group leader.

Also,

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Originally Posted by Vickii

If you really don’t want to see the story in normal mode, then simply skip the cutscene.

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That would only work if they put a giant black censor bar over the bosses and arena :P

edit:

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

Blasting through the normal raids quickly when a new tier comes out is not, honestly, that onerous; if you want the same story unlockable via savage so as to skip normal, I don't see much point to it. (Any more than you should be able to skip to later tiers of relic weapons without completing the earlier ones, or queue right into Ultimate content without ever setting foot in Savage once.)

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I just want to end a progression kill with a badass cutscene and story chunk after basking in the euphoria of getting my clear. :( I don't care about first week or chasing parses. I want to experience the WoL story feeling like a WoL. I know that's kind of a unique situation, but I'm happy to be in a group of people who feel the same.

I'm very much a "media blackout! Don't even show me the trailer!!" kind of person.

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

I just want to end a progression kill with a badass cutscene and story chunk after basking in the euphoria of getting my clear. :( I don't care about first week or chasing parses. I want to experience the WoL story feeling like a WoL. I know that's kind of a unique situation, but I'm happy to be in a group of people who feel the same.

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I get it, believe me; story is honestly one of the best rewards anyone can give me, too. It's a chunk of why I want to still get through the last bit of Eureka and do Baldesion Arsenal (though "I want the Demi-Ozma mount" and "this sounds like a bonkers experience and I really want to try it" are also major motivating factors). And there's a reason I threw myself at Coils when my folks decided to do a proper run of it; as a former 1.0 player, I really wanted to see what is functionally the epilogue to the 1.0 story, and I wanted to earn it.

I just don't know that it's feasible more widely in this specific game, given that 'story' is the game's primary selling point.

Because, yes, with story being the primary selling point, people would go hurl themselves at savage if that was how you got the story (possibly without going through normal, if normal still existed in such a hypothetical world). And in order to get people through instances that get you story that isn't niche, the things that get you story would most likely need to be added to roulettes... and I do not want to imagine the wailing and gnashing of teeth if people could queue into Raid Roulette and end up with a bunch of first-timers in, say, E9S. Especially if they were just plunging straight into savage right after the patch without going into normal at all.

And if it were the same story unlocked via both normal and savage... I think a lot of savage raiders who are motivated by story would be disappointed that if 'story' was supposed to be a reward, you still wouldn't get anything different by doing the more difficult fights. (I know that, personally, I kind of would be.)

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

Wow those are so rose tinted glasses. Need I link the thousands of old "why vanilla was great" threads saying so because it encouraged community through making the solo experience difficult? The class quests (warlock comes to mind) that needed a full party to take you through?

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You have to remember that at the time WoW launched the competition was group-only MMO's such as Everquest 1 & 2. Then WoW came along and compared to both Everquest 1 & 2 it was *extremely* solo friendly at the time. While you are right in that vanilla WoW is not as friendly to solo players as the current version is, that's not relevant since I'm talking about the state of MMO's back in 2004-2006.

Don't know if you played either Everquest 1 and/or 2, but there's been enough post's in this thread by those who have... to attest to just how much those games were "group or don't bother playing" (heck, EQ2 had 'solo' content that had to be done in groups... pffft!).

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Perhaps they will let raiders skip normal and go straight to Savage like every other game.

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Unless it's been changed (possibly it has, it's been like 5-6 years since I've played it), WoW always required you to complete the normal version of dungeons & raids before you could tackle the harder versions. So in that respect, XIV is just like the big daddy of all western MMO's... requiring players to finish normal/story mode before doing hard version.

Question - what MMO's let you bypass the normal/story version of a dungeon, trail, or raid, and go directly to the harder versions?

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I humor you and say, yes, you are still not reading my posts. Who knew wanting alternative options for different people meant I wanted to lock the story away only for me?

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I quoted you as what your post said was relevant, but my original post was directed more about what the OP & thread are discussing. I will say it is less relevant to you, as from what I've seen you've more pushed for the ability to skip doing normal mode and not about locking content away from normal players.

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Edit: also while it is hard to determine how many people cleared content on WoW before AoTC, you can tell that participation isn't small enough to even say that solo players dominate the game. You can even see key clears, which are arguably more difficult on higher tiers, have more participation than raiding. Definitely not a "solo" experience.

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I see you're not reading my post's: I gave out 100% accurate stat's regarding raiding %'s back in original Vanilla and BC - 6-7% of the player base in total ever even set foot into a raid. LESS than 10% of the players. Which means 90+% of the players NEVER went into a raid at all, let alone the harder-mode's of raids. The %'s I stated were provided by WoW's dev's, based off their own metrics and player tracking - thus can be considered 100% accurate as of when they posted it.

So yes, WoW was massively SOLO dominated, and likely still is - despite the fact that current stats are skewered terribly due to LFR being shoved into the main story to force players into raiding. I also doubt WoW dev's will reveal the #'s & %'s of players raiding outside of mandatory raids forced upon players. I say this as I highly doubt things have changed that much - in that the majority of WoW's playerbase are still non-raider's doing solo content and/or dungeons in groups, while the 'visible' base on forums and such is still the raiders.

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

So you agree that for some people having no other option than to see the story in normal isn't rewarding?

They added trusts for the solo player, they can let raiders to savage for the story if they wanted to.

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Do you think soloers like being forced to get together with 7 others or groups like having to have 4 more people? I'm sorry if raiders are bored, but everyone is making a choice to do something they dislike for the same reward. If they put in the ability for Savage to grant story completion, then they would also need to add a solo instance (possibly with Trusts) and a group version. Otherwise they are skewing it in the favor of raiders because they would have to give up nothing while other play styles still had to give up something.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Ironically, several raiders, myself included, would prefer Savage to be unlockable without having to complete Normal and without any story. Why? So we can later go back and watch the story unfold without having to rush through it for week 1. Putting said story in Savage just means we'll skip it since the whole purpose of Savage isn't story but doing challenging battle content. Look no further than E8S. What was the biggest complaint besides Light Rampant? Her minute long cut-scene before going into second phase.

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That is a perfectly reasonable suggestion. So long as story says with Normal so there is balance with everyone having the same requirements to gain that reward, there's zero issue with letting Savage unlock without doing Normal. And you make a great point of being able to go back through at your own pace and enjoy it without having the pacing necessities of Savage ruin that for you. I'm 100% with you for decoupling Savage access as it is right now from Normal.

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Originally Posted by Kamatsu

You have to remember that at the time WoW launched the competition was group-only MMO's such as Everquest 1 & 2. Then WoW came along and compared to both Everquest 1 & 2 it was *extremely* solo friendly at the time. While you are right in that vanilla WoW is not as friendly to solo players as the current version is, that's not relevant since I'm talking about the state of MMO's back in 2004-2006.

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Oh god, yes. EQII has gotten a lot better. There are entire solo questlines in zones now and they adopted the "hub" style that WoW started doing (I think with BC?) but when they launched WoW was so much more accessible to soloers than EverQuest II and definitely EverQuest. EQII was long-touted on the EQ forums as the alternative to the group-only style of EQ, but it took them a bit and some overhauls to make good on that promise. And even then you had the content ceilings where solo ended and you had to move into grouping or raiding. I'm pretty sure they still stop off expansions with raids, though I haven't dived into the latest expansion yet.