Possible Ideas to Address Hrothgar/Viera Hat Disparity?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kyeria

For the second part, what legal issues do they have with adding all the hairstyles and hats to all the races...they literally own all the rights to them?

---

You heard it here first, if they add so much as a single hairstyle or hat to these races SE will sue SE.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yencat

You heard it here first, if they add so much as a single hairstyle or hat to these races SE will sue SE.

---

Haha you know it!

It's honestly sad because I understand things take time. They can't wave a magic wand and fix things overnight, but I feel like anytime issues are brought up with these races people dismiss them and assume we're all just being negative to be an ass. The community here tends to white knight Square Enix really hard and constructive criticism is attacked with stuff like whatever nonsense his post was going about.

The Hrothgar and Viera complaints are all valid. These races were introduced half-baked and they've been left out in the cold, forgotten ever since launch. It's a really sad state to be in if you love these races...
I mean let's be honest, we should all be able to easily agree that the state of Viera/Hroth is bad and unacceptable. Bare minimum agree that one should be required to pay for a Fantasia to change their hairstyle...to the literal ONE other option they have tied to their face.

If they applied this logic to all the other races and made it so every other race had to pay for Fantasia's to change their hair people would lose their minds, but because it doesn't apply to them they don't care.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

There is a chance it's more complex then people realize.

---

This. This is probably why there aren't many hats available for Hroth and Viera, but also include "a shit ton of work" to it. I mean, think about it. In order to make hats available for Vieras, they would have to practically remake every single hat available just to model bunny ear holes, with the only step they wont have to do is remaking the base hat. They would have to cut holes out of the high poly models, then make new low-poly models from it, make new unwrap maps, make new texture maps x every single dye option available, and finally add all of the dye programming to it (which would be the only complex part of this process), or whatever they use for their dye system. And repeat that lengthy process x1000. Meanwhile, for Hroth, their hair models are literally attached to their head models, which are pretty varied. They don't need to remake every single hat available, but they would have to make a second head model for every available options just to make hats look pleasing on them without any clipping.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Realism_Snide

This. This is probably why there aren't many hats available for Hroth and Viera, but also include "a shit ton of work" to it. I mean, think about it. In order to make hats available for Vieras, they would have to practically remake every single hat available just to model bunny ear holes, with the only step they wont have to do is remaking the base hat. They would have to cut holes out of the high poly models, then make new low-poly models from it, make new unwrap maps, make new texture maps x every single dye option available, and finally add all of the dye programming to it (which would be the only complex part of this process), or whatever they use for their dye system. And repeat that lengthy process x1000.

---

Most people understand it's a lot of work just fine, I don't even see all that many people expecting them to make every single hat compatible to these races because that's sadly just not realistic.

But in 1 and a half years they haven't done a single thing for these races. Beyond the few types of items that worked from the start not one new hat type or new hairstyle has made it over to us, people aren't being unreasonable and asking for the world here.

Sure, COVID and all. But really? Not a single one?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Realism_Snide

Meanwhile, for Hroth, their hair models are literally attached to their head models, which are pretty varied. They don't need to remake every single hat available, but they would have to make a second head model for every available options just to make hats look pleasing on them without any clipping.

---

Hrothgar hair is not attached to their head model, the hair is a completely separate model like it is for every other race. On the first page of this thread you can see images of a "bald" Hrothgar with a hat on because their hair disappears when they equip it (and you force it to show), if they were actually attached the entire head would disappear.

They have even less of an excuse for Hrothgar being like this than they do Viera.

*nods* that "force it to show" with clipping toggles still feels like the best solution to me.
The models exist, the rules exist, just let us toggle them even if it looks ugly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Just a more current update of their same stance on the subject. The problem with that question is they asked "headgear" rather than hats. Viera already have support for headgear that isn't hats! Nothing new was learned! The community had a chance and blew it with that question! :(

---

I don't see where the wasted question is.

It's a solid answer: there will never be 100% support for headgear. Hats are a sub-category of headgear.

Therefore the logical options are that they will either continue to support non-hat headgear while being unable to support (all) hats - i.e. the exact situation we are in now with a small chance to get some hats in future - or for some reason they will do a 180 and start supporting hats while neglecting other types of gear.

It is a definite no to the people who think it will get solved and think that they were promised that hats are in development.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iscah

I don't see where the wasted question is.

It's a solid answer: there will never be 100% support for headgear. Hats are a sub-category of headgear.

Therefore the logical options are that they will either continue to support non-hat headgear while being unable to support (all) hats - i.e. the exact situation we are in now with a small chance to get some hats in future - or for some reason they will do a 180 and start supporting hats while neglecting other types of gear.

It is a definite no to the people who think it will get solved and think that they were promised that hats are in development.

---

The question has already been answered probably numerous times now. Viera aren't going to get ALL headgear? NO? REALY? Who woulda thought that! :rolleyes:

Bad question, and nothing new answer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SturmChurro

The question has already been answered probably numerous times now. Viera aren't going to get ALL headgear? NO? REALY? Who woulda thought that! :rolleyes:

Bad question, and nothing new answer.

---

People are still pointing to the early "we'll make things more compatible over time" statement as proof that hats are coming and they promised. (They didn't.)

This is a definite answer that it isn't happening.

If it's nothing new, then it needs repeating and it needs to be louder.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iscah

People are still pointing to the early "we'll make things more compatible over time" statement as proof that hats are coming and they promised. (They didn't.)

This is a definite answer that it isn't happening.

If it's nothing new, then it needs repeating and it needs to be louder.

---

And how exactly does "not 100%" answer this question? If someone is of the mindset that headgear, or perhaps hats, may "be made more compatible over time", "not 100%" doesn't answer this.

I don't blame them for answering that way, that question sucked.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SturmChurro

And how exactly does "not 100%" answer this question? If someone is of the mindset that headgear, or perhaps hats, may "be made more compatible over time", "not 100%" doesn't answer this.

I don't blame them for answering that way, that question sucked.

---

I agree with you, but this is the same community that still swears up and down SE promised them with hand on heart to never-ever-ever do genderlocks again. :rolleyes: Apparently some things bear repeating.

It's not news to anyone that has been following everything that's been said up to now, but I've seen a decent amount of comments here and in other places by people still genuinely expecting they would get it all working by 6.0.

In any case, from what I understand he just showed up on the server as a surprise and people swarmed him and spammed questions at him and he answered a few. It wasn't any sort of official Q&A so I doubt even if the question had been more specific he would have gone into much more depth in this particular setting, if they have any actual news to share about this I would expect them to save it for February.

I'll post the other questions and answers the person caught and translated here to get a slightly more complete picture, most of them are as non-committal as you'd expect.

Quote:

---

Q: Gatherer artifact replicas?
A: If there is a demand, we will consider it.

Q: Can we get a checkbox in the repair window?
A: I think that can be done, so I will notify the UI team.

Q: Can we get an expansion for rings?
A: I think there will be something soon.

Q: Can we wear hats and eyeglasses at the same time?
A: This deeply involves the core code, so it will be extremely difficult.

Q: Can we get 100% support on all headgear for Viera and Hrothgar?
A: In regards to headgear for those races, due to the unique ears and faces it will be impossible to implement 100% support. I am sorry.

A: Copy pasted coordinate links to be re-linkable is impossible.

Q: Can we get a party finder INSIDE content like Bozja and Eureka?
A: Unfortunately as you are already INSIDE the content, this will be difficult.

---

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._new_years_qa/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kyeria

I'm sorry, the first part is a pathetic excuse for Square Enix if we're really going to go with that. We're talking about a cosmetic, a hairstyle, and a hat.
This isn't rocket science. If they can make a brand new hairstyle ( Wind Caller Hair ) work for 10 races, ( Hyur, Miq, Roe, Lala, Aura, and each has an additional tribe ) across both PS4 and PC there's no reason they couldn't figure this out a SINGLE brand new hairstyle or fixing a single existing hat cosmetic for Viera and Hrothgar over the course of a year.

For the second part, what legal issues do they have with adding all the hairstyles and hats to all the races...they literally own all the rights to them?
And for the last part, I literally have no idea what you meant.

---

You were inferring that it was 'easy' because some third-party PC-only application can make changes that sorta look good. I merely pointed out that the PC-only application couldn't work on Playstations, which can't run PC applications. It isn't as easy as you think, and there are no repercussions if that third-party application blows things up somewhere else.

By the way, don't do this at home kids. It's against the ToS, and can get you booted permanently.

Sure, Joe Schmoe can create an awesome hairstyle and get it to people using the illegal application. But there is no way a company can use 'ideas' or 'art' from people who do not work there. It's a setup for a long dance in copyright court. Which is why writers don't read fanfiction based on their characters, especially for ongoing series. Clear enough?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DPZ2

You were inferring that it was 'easy' because some third-party PC-only application can make changes that sorta look good. I merely pointed out that the PC-only application couldn't work on Playstations, which can't run PC applications. It isn't as easy as you think, and there are no repercussions if that third-party application blows things up somewhere else.

By the way, don't do this at home kids. It's against the ToS, and can get you booted permanently.

Sure, Joe Schmoe can create an awesome hairstyle and get it to people using the illegal application. But there is no way a company can use 'ideas' or 'art' from people who do not work there. It's a setup for a long dance in copyright court. Which is why writers don't read fanfiction based on their characters, especially for ongoing series. Clear enough?

---

You're still misunderstanding what he's saying.

He's not talking about SE using someone else's original hairstyle designs or saying people should use mods as a solution, he's saying Joe Schmoe has figured out how to make almost every hairstyle currently available in the game usable by both Hrothgar and Viera. Even the ones that are locked to other faces for Hrothgar.

Now if Joe Schmoe can do all that in his spare time how can you make excuses for a company with the resources SE has to not put out a single thing in all this time?

If you had argued there's a different standard of quality for mods or that Joe Schmoe doesn't have the workload the devs do I actually might have somewhat agreed, but that wasn't your argument.

But even then, not a single thing in +/- 17 months?

The Modding Community I'm pretty sure has been playing with XIV's textures on Hrothgar and Viera for the longest time to make them work. The problem is, it's against ToS to modify anything inside FFXIV. If anything, I want to say this: Hire them.

If the modding community can make some amazing things(like clothing models, various different mods for body parts, and styles) then HIRE THEM ON, SE. It's not difficult to appease a entire race's community if you bother to pay for them to fit existing headgear properly onto Hrothgar and Viera.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yencat

He's not talking about SE using someone else's original hairstyle designs or saying people should use mods as a solution, he's saying Joe Schmoe has figured out how to make almost every hairstyle currently available in the game usable by both Hrothgar and Viera. Even the ones that are locked to other faces for Hrothgar.

Now if Joe Schmoe can do all that in his spare time how can you make excuses for a company with the resources SE has to not put out a single thing in all this time?

---

I genuinely have no idea how Joe goes about making it possible, but if it involves switching out game models for other ones then the problem may not be with the models but with the interface, particularly for Hrothgar hairstyles - they simply don't have enough settings in the character creator to assign one for it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iscah

I genuinely have no idea how Joe goes about making it possible, but if it involves switching out game models for other ones then the problem may not be with the models but with the interface, particularly for Hrothgar hairstyles - they simply don't have enough settings in the character creator to assign one for it.

---

Of course, I'm not at all saying it's as easy as swapping things like they do, which is also why it's not a good solution in the long run because you remain with a fixed number of hairstyles just swapping and losing one for another. As a workaround Joe might assign a hairstyle to a specific headgear item to function effectively like a wig, which is not at all something SE is likely to be doing but there's nothing inherently unusual or strange about the race models themselves that would preclude them from having more hair, especially not Viera.

You're spot on about the CC being the most likely problem for Hrothgar though. I'm assuming they can change their fur pattern and colour at the aesthetician since it's in the same spot as hairstyles/hair colour normally go for races without a muscle slider, so I guess for all intents and purposes they have fur patterns instead of hair.

So unless they're thinking about (and it's even a possibility) exchanging the fur patterns with the hair and having fur patterns be Fantasia only instead of the hair or revamping how limited the settings in character creation are, then they're probably screwed in terms of more hairstyles unless they somehow get really creative. And Viera with them if they intend to keep it even-steven between them.

I don't know how happy new fur patterns would make Hrothgar players as they only really show when you're shirtless, but they didn't even add those.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yencat

I don't know how happy new fur patterns would make Hrothgar players as they only really show when you're shirtless, but they didn't even add those.

---

They wouldn't make much of a difference. Most people want actual hairstyles that don't require a Fantasia. I haven't really seen any mention of fur patterns anywhere.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vahlnir

They wouldn't make much of a difference. Most people want actual hairstyles that don't require a Fantasia. I haven't really seen any mention of fur patterns anywhere.

---

Yeah I haven't either so I figured as much, I just didn't want to assume. :)

Baffling that they thought that would be a good trade off then.

I'm just gonna be real right now, but I was just thinking about this, what could they even come up with for hrothgar? Like I don't wanna be mean or anything, but even if hrothgar had full hair support, 99% of the styles would look ridiculous. I've always argued against how SE handled them, but maybe they were thinking the same thing. Not saying it's okay if they were thinking "why bother", but I can see where they were coming from.

The whole hair locked to face, and fur patterns being the equivalent to hair in the creator sucks. The ridiculous thing is yeah, not even a single new fur pattern either. Nothing. Granted, I literally can't tell you the difference between any of the fur patterns, even on the many shirtless hrothgar I've seen. It's not even noticeable when you can see it. Maybe for the player? But considering the lack of good feedback or even a real want for more, I kind of doubt it.

Many pointy hat models do not need any effort regarding the Viera ears, as follows:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D360RkbU8AEyqfl.jpg:large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D360RkgUIAEAobF.jpg:large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D360RkaU4AAQDvB.jpg:large

(source: https://twitter.com/spinel9057/)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I'm just gonna be real right now, but I was just thinking about this, what could they even come up with for hrothgar? Like I don't wanna be mean or anything, but even if hrothgar had full hair support, 99% of the styles would look ridiculous. I've always argued against how SE handled them, but maybe they were thinking the same thing. Not saying it's okay if they were thinking "why bother", but I can see where they were coming from.

---

Not as bad as you'd expect honestly. These are only 2 images I found but many hairstyles are of similar style and length so I imagine they'd look fine. Subjective of course, but I think they look pretty good all things considered.

Windcaller

https://i.imgur.com/7RZam5O.jpg

Noctis

https://i.imgur.com/o2F5ebf.jpg

Not all of them are gonna look good but personally I don't think the Gyr Abanian Plait looks good on any male characters, but if the players like it they can decide for themselves if they think it looks good or not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SturmChurro

The whole hair locked to face, and fur patterns being the equivalent to hair in the creator sucks. The ridiculous thing is yeah, not even a single new fur pattern either. Nothing. Granted, I literally can't tell you the difference between any of the fur patterns, even on the many shirtless hrothgar I've seen. It's not even noticeable when you can see it. Maybe for the player? But considering the lack of good feedback or even a real want for more, I kind of doubt it.

---

Honestly the more I post in this thread the more it starts to dawn on me there's probably just not going to be a satisfactory solution to this in terms of hairstyles unless they redo how they set up the CC Hrothgar or they make some big changes in character creation that allows for more options. I guess it should have been obvious for a long time but I did expect better.

They shot Hrothgar in the kneecaps by their own design and tied Viera to the train tracks next them, they're not going to give anything to one without the other but fixing one on such a core level might be a bigger undertaking than they're willing to take on.

Would they be willing to actually fix Hrothgar so they don't require a Fantasia? And if not, are both races only going to be getting things in expansions? Are we even getting anything substantial in the next expansion?

When they broke the 2B butt by accident they very quickly released a statement but when it comes to this it's been crickets for a long time now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yencat

I don't know how happy new fur patterns would make Hrothgar players as they only really show when you're shirtless, but they didn't even add those.

---

I can pretty much assure you if we get more fur patterns instead of hairstyle or the Fantasia issue even more Hroth players will simply jump ship.

Also call it tinfoil hat theory but if Hrothgars needing Fantasia was a deliberate choice as "compensation" because they knew it wouldn't be a popular race then SE would outrank Blizz and EA in scummy business models.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Allegor

Also call it tinfoil hat theory but if Hrothgars needing Fantasia was a deliberate choice as "compensation" because they knew it wouldn't be a popular race then SE would outrank Blizz and EA in scummy business models.

---

If Blizzard had done something like this in WoW they would rightfully be a laughing stock and mocked all over the internet and especially on these forums, so you might not be far off the mark. There's no way I believe they started working on Hrothgar first and Viera was a last minute inclusion with how badly they bungled their implementation, they were barely finished to even show at their Fan Fest reveal and they had to hide them with dark filters while they kept working on them.

I've said it before but if they had done this with Au Ra people would have torched these forums to the ground.

They kept mum about this until the very end and were very lucky the male Viera supporters were so loud and angry that almost no one was paying attention to this anymore.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yencat

Not as bad as you'd expect honestly. These are only 2 images I found but many hairstyles are of similar style and length so I imagine they'd look fine. Subjective of course, but I think they look pretty good all things considered.

Not all of them are gonna look good but personally I don't think the Gyr Abanian Plait looks good on any male characters, but if the players like it they can decide for themselves if they think it looks good or not.

---

I can probably agree with you with the Borzja hair. That one I was thinking even before seeing that image that it would look good on them. The other one... not for me (but neither is hrothgar). There are a select few that would probably fit hrothgar real well, and just like viera, hrothgar should get support for select styles. If they can't do them all, at least do some of them..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yencat

Honestly the more I post in this thread the more it starts to dawn on me there's probably just not going to be a satisfactory solution to this in terms of hairstyles unless they redo how they set up the CC Hrothgar or they make some big changes in character creation that allows for more options. I guess it should have been obvious for a long time but I did expect better.

They shot Hrothgar in the kneecaps by their own design and tied Viera to the train tracks next them, they're not going to give anything to one without the other but fixing one on such a core level might be a bigger undertaking than they're willing to take on.

Would they be willing to actually fix Hrothgar so they don't require a Fantasia? And if not, are both races only going to be getting things in expansions? Are we even getting anything substantial in the next expansion?

When they broke the 2B butt by accident they very quickly released a statement but when it comes to this it's been crickets for a long time now.

---

I don't think hrothgar are going to get any kind of solution. Even SE said they would be adding more faces for hrothgar and hairs (race specific) to viera. This tells me, at least at the time, they are content with their release. I know people go over and over, how the races aren't finished, but they are finished. If they add anything it will be a bonus. "New faces" - which tells me, hrothgar will still need a fantasia to switch to those "new faces".

It is a bit odd, the community hasn't been quiet at all for viera/hrothgar, and SE seems to be largely ignoring the whole thing. 2B butt happens, almost immediately they fix it so people don't have a flat butt glam anymore. Very odd priorities.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yencat

If Blizzard had done something like this in WoW they would rightfully be a laughing stock and mocked all over the internet and especially on these forums, so you might not be far off the mark. There's no way I believe they started working on Hrothgar first and Viera was a last minute inclusion with how badly they bungled their implementation, they were barely finished to even show at their Fan Fest reveal and they had to hide them with dark filters while they kept working on them.

They kept mum about this until the very end and were very lucky the male Viera supporters were so loud and angry that almost no one was paying attention to this anymore.

---

I think that whole hrothgar "first" thing is a bit suspicious. Considering viera were the ones on the billboards, and everytime I saw an ad online it was a viera, and largely when it came to ShB I saw viera NOT hrothgar. The whole concept of "Oh, viera were just a handout for the people who wanted it" doesn't really fit..

It took them months to even update the mogstation, stating that viera/hrothgar can't use certain items. Like hats (in reference to this thread).


New thoughts*, even if they could the whole fantasia thing tells me it would never happen. The whole hair being tied to faces tells me hrothgar will NEVER get a substantial amount of styles. If SE is not intent on "fixing" it, it's just never gonna happen. It's just too much. Let's say they add the windcaller cut, for example. That cut would have to be on every single face, duplicated. The whole creator would be a cluttered mess. The whole "new faces" thing, just means more of the same, less what people want. So, if you are a hrothgar who likes a certain face right now, you may not even be able to use that face with a hairstyle you may like that's tied to another face in the future.

In regards to this thread, this also tells me, the more heads there are for hrothgar, the less chance for hats to EVER be made available to them. If they have to fit each hat to each singular head, it's LITERALLY NEVER gonna happen.

Im gonna be lazy in the moment and not try to refind the source, but they said the Hrothgar and Viera would be getting new Hairstyles unique to them.
Dont know about Viera, but for Hrothgar this makes sense because not alot of the current hairstyles would fit on them very well. As said; they would look ridiculous.
Now, the big thing here that is possibly overlooked because of how much people want it to hurry up and happen, but it was never expressed WHEN we would see these new Hairstyles. So saying its never gonna happen, or jumping to other conclusions is abit hasty. None of us can speak for YoshiP, the Devs or SE here, there can be a multitude of reasons why it hasn't happened yet, and there is a possibility that many issues will be addressed in 6.0.
Having a whole 2+ years to try and fix something while working on the game seems better then slapping together something half-cocked in a few months or less then a year.
Yeah-yeah the modding community, SE is a Billion dollar company and all that jazz, but I think its better that they actually FIX the issue after being bombarded with how much of an issue it is, rather then a bandaid to temporarily make people happy-but will just make people mad anyway (Like serious, some people find any little thing to complain about)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SturmChurro

It is a bit odd, the community hasn't been quiet at all for viera/hrothgar, and SE seems to be largely ignoring the whole thing. 2B butt happens, almost immediately they fix it so people don't have a flat butt glam anymore. Very odd priorities.
I think that whole hrothgar "first" thing is a bit suspicious. Considering viera were the ones on the billboards, and everytime I saw an ad online it was a viera, and largely when it came to ShB I saw viera NOT hrothgar. The whole concept of "Oh, viera were just a handout for the people who wanted it" doesn't really fit..

---

Ill agree that the 2B butt thing getting addressed fast is an Odd priority, but they did say what happened was an error. What they did with the Viera and Hrothgar was not an Error, they were made as intended wither we like it or not. Hopefully all the stink are leading to needed changes.
I disagree on your idea that the Viera & Hrothgar are being ignored. I chose to belive that they just arn't bringing attention to them without anything to show for it, and its better to remain quiet and reveal when ready, as suppose to making a promise they MIGHT not be able to keep, or even building hype for something that will lead to disappointment.
IE - The response to 'stay tuned' when somebody asked about Male Viera. (Might be a misquote)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yencat

There's no way I believe they started working on Hrothgar first and Viera was a last minute inclusion with how badly they bungled their implementation, they were barely finished to even show at their Fan Fest reveal and they had to hide them with dark filters while they kept working on them.

---

Once again being lazy in the moment, but I think it was said in a video/interview or whatever, that Hrothgar WERE in fact planned before Viera. They wanted to put in a playable Beast Race to mix things up, every playable race is just basically another human, a Beast race is a non-human option. Plus apparently the Lupin were well received and people were upset they weren't playable.
Viera only really happened because, as YoshiP has actually said, "This might be our last chance to make new races for the game. So we wanted to fulfill 2 requests"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Allegor

Also call it tinfoil hat theory but if Hrothgars needing Fantasia was a deliberate choice as "compensation" because they knew it wouldn't be a popular race then SE would outrank Blizz and EA in scummy business models.

---

Thats a pretty big Tinfoil hat. Wouldnt make sense to spend all that time, energy and resources to make a new race and do something like that 'because they knew it wouldn't be popular'
Like really, what company would do that? Thats just a giant waste.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Im gonna be lazy in the moment and not try to refind the source, but they said the Hrothgar and Viera would be getting new Hairstyles unique to them.
Dont know about Viera, but for Hrothgar this makes sense because not alot of the current hairstyles would fit on them very well. As said; they would look ridiculous.
Now, the big thing here that is possibly overlooked because of how much people want it to hurry up and happen, but it was never expressed WHEN we would see these new Hairstyles. So saying its never gonna happen, or jumping to other conclusions is abit hasty. None of us can speak for YoshiP, the Devs or SE here, there can be a multitude of reasons why it hasn't happened yet, and there is a possibility that many issues will be addressed in 6.0.
Having a whole 2+ years to try and fix something while working on the game seems better then slapping together something half-cocked in a few months or less then a year.

I think its better that they actually FIX the issue after being bombarded with how much of an issue it is, rather then a bandaid to temporarily make people happy-but will just make people mad anyway (Like serious, some people find any little thing to complain about)

I disagree on your idea that the Viera & Hrothgar are being ignored. I chose to belive that they just arn't bringing attention to them without anything to show for it, and its better to remain quiet and reveal when ready, as suppose to making a promise they MIGHT not be able to keep, or even building hype for something that will lead to disappointment.
IE - The response to 'stay tuned' when somebody asked about Male Viera. (Might be a misquote)

---

Viera would get new hairstyles, hrothgar would get new faces, supposedly. That tells me, no "fix". I doubt they would even admit that there needs to be a "fix". They've always said, due to unique heads, or whatever.. which means a conscious design decision they are content with, as is. Unique heads being a FEATURE, rather than a problem that needs to be fixed. I'm not too confident they have even been looking for a "fix", as you may think. I think your opinion may change when 6.0 rolls around and IF we get updates to these races it's just more of the same. If all we get after 2 years is just "more of the same", we will probably be too deep in, and I highly doubt viera/hrothgar will EVER get some kind of "fix".

No, I really do think the community is being largely ignored when it comes to viera/hrothgar. I don't know about a "stay tuned" for male viera, but if they are going to release male viera/female hrothgar just as limited, probably better off not doing it. I know some people will disagree, but I think it would actually be in SE's best interest at that point, and we don't need a repeat of what has been happening. I seriously doubt new male viera/female hrothgar players would be happy with all these limitations.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Viera would get new hairstyles, hrothgar would get new faces, supposedly. That tells me, no "fix". I doubt they would even admit that there needs to be a "fix". They've always said, due to unique heads, or whatever.. which means a conscious design decision they are content with, as is. Unique heads being a FEATURE, rather than a problem that needs to be fixed. I'm not too confident they have even been looking for a "fix", as you may think. I think your opinion may change when 6.0 rolls around and IF we get updates to these races it's just more of the same. If all we get after 2 years is just "more of the same", we will probably be too deep in, and I highly doubt viera/hrothgar will EVER get some kind of "fix".

---

This is basically my worry, they specifically said new faces and manes for Hrothgar and race specific hair for Viera. So if there is no way/plans to fundamentally fix Hrothgar to be able to give them regular updates to CC throughout an expansion then Viera sinks with them and we'll both only see something new every 2 years on a new expansion launch.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SturmChurro

No, I really do think the community is being largely ignored when it comes to viera/hrothgar. I don't know about a "stay tuned" for male viera, but if they are going to release male viera/female hrothgar just as limited, probably better off not doing it. I know some people will disagree, but I think it would actually be in SE's best interest at that point, and we don't need a repeat of what has been happening. I seriously doubt new male viera/female hrothgar players would be happy with all these limitations.

---

When they revealed Viera they were asked why male Viera weren't shown and were told to "stay tuned" for the next Fan Fest, giving the impression they were being saved for the next Fan Fest and getting people's hopes up. I believe that's what they're referring to.

Anyway, several people have already made it known they won't mind the limitations (they could even only have 1 single hair!) as long as they get male Viera/female Hrothgar. So I guess they have the okay from that side.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

I think its better that they actually FIX the issue after being bombarded with how much of an issue it is, rather then a bandaid to temporarily make people happy-but will just make people mad anyway (Like serious, some people find any little thing to complain about)

---

That's what I'm saying though, I also think it would be better spending the time to actually fix it but if that's the case then why can that not be communicated? They strung people along on the technicality that they never gave a date for the future patches knowing people thought it would be 5.1, 5.2 etc. That's not being hasty, they worded it that way very carefully.

They don't need to send monthly updates but they've never even acknowledged that it's something that needs fixing, so why all the cloak and daggers when we know they can give a statement quickly if something was wrong and they need more time to fix it.

The Hrothgar situation is not "finding any little thing to complain about", it's straight up scummy and I've never seen another game do something like this unless there's no aesthetician system in the game so it works like that for every race.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Like really, what company would do that? Thats just a giant waste.

---

This sums up the whole situation regarding both races perfectly, it is a giant waste. And the answer is SE.

I think they went the way of the dodo and more egi glams.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Viera would get new hairstyles, hrothgar would get new faces, supposedly. That tells me, no "fix". I doubt they would even admit that there needs to be a "fix". They've always said, due to unique heads, or whatever.. which means a conscious design decision they are content with, as is. Unique heads being a FEATURE, rather than a problem that needs to be fixed. I'm not too confident they have even been looking for a "fix", as you may think. I think your opinion may change when 6.0 rolls around and IF we get updates to these races it's just more of the same. If all we get after 2 years is just "more of the same", we will probably be too deep in, and I highly doubt viera/hrothgar will EVER get some kind of "fix".

No, I really do think the community is being largely ignored when it comes to viera/hrothgar. I don't know about a "stay tuned" for male viera, but if they are going to release male viera/female hrothgar just as limited, probably better off not doing it. I know some people will disagree, but I think it would actually be in SE's best interest at that point, and we don't need a repeat of what has been happening. I seriously doubt new male viera/female hrothgar players would be happy with all these limitations.

---

My personal theory is that Viera/Hrothgar was a late decision inside their expansion cycle (and you can tell by just noticing the shared hampem gear). After all, when ShB was release devs already started working on the next one. If 6.0 all-new items don't have full headgear support then is never going to happen, same for any new unlockable hairstyle.

I also agree with you about male Viera and female Hrothgar. People say that now, but sooner or later certain headgear/hairstyle that you like is not usable and it sucks to the point you think about changing back. At least is that way for me and I accepted no headgear and no new hairstyles a long time ago.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I think your opinion may change when 6.0 rolls around and IF we get updates to these races it's just more of the same. If all we get after 2 years is just "more of the same", we will probably be too deep in, and I highly doubt viera/hrothgar will EVER get some kind of "fix".

I don't know about a "stay tuned" for male viera,

---

We will see, Im not one to make predictions, I judge things as they happen,not before they happen, especially not without tangable proof. I dont work off of theories very much, most of the time its just personal feelings on a matter...not too different from what I said.
The Stay tuned was for the fanfestival leading up to 5.0; the release of Shadowbringers when they showed off Viera. Somebody tried to ask about males.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yencat

That's what I'm saying though, I also think it would be better spending the time to actually fix it but if that's the case then why can that not be communicated? They strung people along on the technicality that they never gave a date for the future patches knowing people thought it would be 5.1, 5.2 etc. That's not being hasty, they worded it that way very carefully.

They don't need to send monthly updates but they've never even acknowledged that it's something that needs fixing, so why all the cloak and daggers when we know they can give a statement quickly if something was wrong and they need more time to fix it.

The Hrothgar situation is not "finding any little thing to complain about", it's straight up scummy and I've never seen another game do something like this unless there's no aesthetician system in the game so it works like that for every race.

---

Thats our fault for making that assumption, they never gave a date, so for any of us to think 'oh next major patch, or OH it should happen at this time' thats us as a playerbase saying it, not the devs. So while communication is nice, if they never report on it, they have nothing to say yet. Silent is better then a lie. And with how much they have been asked and harassed about headgear, I doubt that its something they are trying to ignore, because if its still being talked about after 2 years, then its something they 'should' fix. Missing Genders...idk. Id like Female Hrothgar, but it it WOULD be better to do something about the present issues first. Unless they can squash all issues at once.

"finding any little thing to complain about"
Im talking about them maybe addressing the issue and putting in a temp fix. People will still complain.
They hastily try to fix the issue and its half-cocked, but hey, they went through with the clipping they said they dont like...people complain
stuff like that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yencat

This sums up the whole situation regarding both races perfectly, it is a giant waste. And the answer is SE.

---

No, a waste of time is if they made these races and then just delete them later as some people have posted.
Despite the issues there is still a healthy amount of people that still LOVE that Viera are in the game, and some people who are simply happy to finally have a playable Beast Race.
They have Plenty of room to improve (and NEED improvements) but alot of people enjoy them so far, and have been creative enough to work around glamour limitations.
They are not a waste of time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Driavna

My personal theory is that Viera/Hrothgar was a late decision inside their expansion cycle (and you can tell by just noticing the shared hampem gear). After all, when ShB was release devs already started working on the next one. If 6.0 all-new items don't have full headgear support then is never going to happen, same for any new unlockable hairstyle.

I also agree with you about male Viera and female Hrothgar. People say that now, but sooner or later certain headgear/hairstyle that you like is not usable and it sucks to the point you think about changing back. At least is that way for me and I accepted no headgear and no new hairstyles a long time ago.

---

Viera/hrothgar probably barely got finished on time, I would bet. Especially hrothgar. Yeah, most definitely. 6.0 onwards they have supported minor headgear, but actual hats - nah. Hat support will NEVER be a thing, as they have said (not 100%), best we can hope for is limited support (a few pieces here and there).

Yeah, after awhile not actually having access to things, and ALL your hairstyles (purchased, or earned), while SE continues to release hair... for everyone else. The whole "I'm happy they were just released", kind of loses it's appeal. Whether players like it or not, without having to deal with yet another limited race (as male viera/female hrothgar would be the equivalent to), SE, and the game, would be better off.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

<snip>

---

What are we even arguing at this point? Even if we're throwing hopes, dreams and theories out the window and only go by the letter of what they actually said they would do we'd arrive at this exact same point. They made their intentions clear to build on the current system they have set up, not to fix anything. Them fixing anything would be a theory or a hope, not something they said they'd do.

Maybe when 6.0 rolls around we can laugh about how people expected them to fix it when clearly they never said anything of the sort?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

No, a waste of time is if they made these races and then just delete them later as some people have posted.
Despite the issues there is still a healthy amount of people that still LOVE that Viera are in the game, and some people who are simply happy to finally have a playable Beast Race.
They have Plenty of room to improve (and NEED improvements) but alot of people enjoy them so far, and have been creative enough to work around glamour limitations.
They are not a waste of time.

---

It was a waste to swap something as insignificant as fur patterns with hair in the CC effectively locking them out of changing those unle$$...
It was a waste tying Viera development in with Hrothgar because you want to be "fair", when by design the Hrothgar system isn't fair and difficult to work with.

The races themselves aren't a waste, the mess they made of them is.

They should just make female viera hats make their ears be gone when equiped (same for clipping hair) and male hrotgar top part of the head be gone

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zeylos

They should just make female viera hats make their ears be gone when equiped (same for clipping hair) and male hrotgar top part of the head be gone

---

Viera's ears are their most distinct feature if you make them disappear you're kinda reduced to a elezen with no pointy ears (this is an exaggeration of course).

They probably haven't talked about the updates to them since they already have said before that they are working on it and see no need to say it again. Plus with covid they might have just pushed it back to 6.0 just to not rush the team doing it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yencat

If Blizzard had done something like this in WoW they would rightfully be a laughing stock and mocked all over the internet and especially on these forums, so you might not be far off the mark. There's no way I believe they started working on Hrothgar first and Viera was a last minute inclusion with how badly they bungled their implementation, they were barely finished to even show at their Fan Fest reveal and they had to hide them with dark filters while they kept working on them..

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Once again being lazy in the moment, but I think it was said in a video/interview or whatever, that Hrothgar WERE in fact planned before Viera. They wanted to put in a playable Beast Race to mix things up, every playable race is just basically another human, a Beast race is a non-human option. Plus apparently the Lupin were well received and people were upset they weren't playable.
Viera only really happened because, as YoshiP has actually said, "This might be our last chance to make new races for the game. So we wanted to fulfill 2 requests"

---

They have explicitly said Hrothgar was decided on first so this is an odd take. Like, Viera imo are just as "bungled" if not more because of how popular they are (reeeeaaaly highlights the tiny amount of customization compared to any other race when there's tons of people playing the race. Like the reserve of how even though it feels like 96% of Femroe use Face 2 they're so rare that you don't care).
Why were they shown and ready first? Cause shockingly being a race that's basically tall meddies with bunny ears and next to zero emote animations is faster to make than the first beast race with animal heads and huuuugely expressive emotes and such.

Like, all you have to do is look at the game. Gnb story line is heavily tied to Hrothgar lore. Half the important Hrothgar having their wife and kids just gone for no real reason. Bozja's whole story being connected to the events in MSQ and about Hrothgar Queen drama with abrupt stand ins for female Hrothgars. They flat out show us art of female Hrothgar. Everything going on with Bozja and Gnb story had to be thought out and started long ago, couldn't be a last min thing.

Viera though? They're just kinda ... there for now. I have a feeling we will learn more about them in 6.0 but yeah, as it stands they don't have a whole relic quest about reclaiming their home land with tons of lore dumps about it.

As for the 2B butt stuff, as it's been said it's because it was a mess up on their part that undermined the entire point of the gear (to give people bigger asses cause that request was the reason they made those high poly butts in the first place). They made these 2 races with the core concept of "Screw head gear and hair!" so it was not a mistake.

Also people need to put away the tin-foil. There is no way they make more money off Hrothgar with the potion system for changing hair. If anything it makes the race far faaaar less appealing to begin with. It's really a credit to the appeal of the race that they're "Highlander popular" with this non-sense. They could have given them reg hair but YP was too into his idea of unique heads and told them that's not what they're doing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by reivaxe

As for the 2B butt stuff, as it's been said it's because it was a mess up on their part that undermined the entire point of the gear (to give people bigger asses cause that request was the reason they made those high poly butts in the first place). They made these 2 races with the core concept of "Screw head gear and hair!" so it was not a mistake.

---

Just to be clear, I didn't bring up the 2B butt as an example of how they can fix things fast and should do the same for Viera/Hrothgar, I know they're not even in the same league. I brought it up because they released a statement on it very quickly.

IF they were putting their heads down and working on a fix like Zanarkand-Ronso was suggesting they could have just as easily said something to that effect, but they don't and they didn't so the races are what they are and I don't see any major fixes coming their way beyond maybe adding some stuff in 6.0. I think it's a waste they did it the way they did but nothing about Viera and Hrothgar being in this state was a mistake, it was a conscious decision.

It would be nice if they could look at ways to better integrate them in the development cycle of hair and/or hats like the other races, but going by their own statements they've made thus far they have no such intentions and it's wishful thinking.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yencat

Viera and Hrothgar being in this state was a mistake, it was a conscious decision.

It would be nice if they could look at ways to better integrate them in the development cycle of hair and/or hats like the other races, but going by their own statements they've made thus far they have no such intentions and it's wishful thinking.

---

I agree, there's nothing for them to "fix" cause nothing's broken. They designed them this way with seemingly zero interest in going back and changing that. They pretty much said that when they last talked about working on a way to get some helms that are unique to Viera in the game by saying basically "Yeah, we're looking into it but ... we DID tell you they're not getting that stuff for a reason so yeah".

Like I've said many a time, I think the choices in limiting these races this way was a very poorly thought out decision and tbh if they ever bother making the other genders I do feel like they will change this for them. But as it stands I think both Viera Females and Hrothgar males are doomed to have to deal with this screwed up decision.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yencat

You're spot on about the CC being the most likely problem for Hrothgar though. I'm assuming they can change their fur pattern and colour at the aesthetician since it's in the same spot as hairstyles/hair colour normally go for races without a muscle slider, so I guess for all intents and purposes they have fur patterns instead of hair.

So unless they're thinking about (and it's even a possibility) exchanging the fur patterns with the hair and having fur patterns be Fantasia only instead of the hair or revamping how limited the settings in character creation are, then they're probably screwed in terms of more hairstyles unless they somehow get really creative. And Viera with them if they intend to keep it even-steven between them.

---

It looks to me that to implement colour-customisable fur patterns as they did, it has to go in the hairstyle slot so it can interact with the standard "hair + highlights colour" setting.

Basically, "getting creative" with how the settings apply to the character is how we got here. It seems like they decided they wanted a specific effect, and that it would be okay to sacrifice other usual types of customisation to achieve that effect.

(I suspect the creators might not have the mindset of people regularly changing their character's appearance.)

An alternative might have been tying patterns to specific hairstyles.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Allegor

Also call it tinfoil hat theory but if Hrothgars needing Fantasia was a deliberate choice as "compensation" because they knew it wouldn't be a popular race then SE would outrank Blizz and EA in scummy business models.

---

Compensation... where? For what?

Who's getting compensation in this scenario?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I think that whole hrothgar "first" thing is a bit suspicious. Considering viera were the ones on the billboards, and everytime I saw an ad online it was a viera, and largely when it came to ShB I saw viera NOT hrothgar. The whole concept of "Oh, viera were just a handout for the people who wanted it" doesn't really fit..

---

From a lore perspective, I think "Hrothgar first" makes a lot of sense. There's Bozja for a start, and I have to wonder if that started being written with the intent that female Hrothgar would be available for the starring role.

Also, as much as the "jungle tribe" setup of the Viera/Viis in Rak'tika fits with Viera lore, I have to wonder about that too. A connection is drawn between the Ronka empire and the Ronso race, and it would make sense if the tribe currently living there is the remnant of it.

Of course once they decided to do fan-favourite Viera they're going to promote it all they can, but that doesn't prove that they had it in mind from the start.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iscah

I suspect the creators might not have the mindset of people regularly changing their character's appearance.

---

You might be on to something here, but you'd think with how often people ask for new hairstyles and the fact that they keep releasing them with some frequency would give them some inkling people really like to change their appearance, or at least their hair? Maybe they even have metrics for how often the aesthetician is used?

And if they themselves don't care then why take the choice away from your players who, unsurprisingly, are now very upset. I know you can't answer that either but I just can't wrap my head around it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iscah

Compensation... where? For what?

Who's getting compensation in this scenario?

---

I must not have read his post close enough the first time because I also don't know what he means by compensation (the only one getting compensated by this is SE) but I think he's 100% correct in feeling like they felt more comfortable doing something experimental and possibly(definitely) unpopular with Hrothgar rather than Viera.

If Viera had to buy a Fantasia to change their hair everyone would have lost their minds, but with Hrothgar being less played it never gained much traction.

Viera definitely ended up getting the better end of the deal but are still treated or at least considered by the devs as just as "unique" as Hrothgar, even though they have no unique or new customization options at all, so in the end everyone loses.

(I'm personally not counting the bangs/no bangs clone hair as unique because while Viera is the only one that has it right now and it's nice, it just falls under hairstyles and feels more like a way to pad the number of available hairstyles than unique customization.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yencat

You're still misunderstanding what he's saying.

He's not talking about SE using someone else's original hairstyle designs or saying people should use mods as a solution, he's saying Joe Schmoe has figured out how to make almost every hairstyle currently available in the game usable by both Hrothgar and Viera. Even the ones that are locked to other faces for Hrothgar.

Now if Joe Schmoe can do all that in his spare time how can you make excuses for a company with the resources SE has to not put out a single thing in all this time?

If you had argued there's a different standard of quality for mods or that Joe Schmoe doesn't have the workload the devs do I actually might have somewhat agreed, but that wasn't your argument.

But even then, not a single thing in +/- 17 months?

---

Thank you for this. I have no idea how this was not made clear after my second post, but you summed it up perfectly.

The solution would be for squenix to buy the rights to the process from "joe" for a dollar.
As it is "Joe" will probably get a cease and desist.