The skill progression is atrocious

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tdb

Hypercharge gives +20 potency to single target attacks though, so it's not useless by itself.

---

Which only applies to a skill with 220 potency which is weaker than your Slug combo and forced to press it 5 times in a timeframe. It’s not useless but just oddly designed

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lumberfoot

That's some seriously poor bait.

---

Well, I felt like I had taken your bait. So please don't make such outrageous claims like that again.

Now, if you're saying that somehow those early abilities don't count for whatever reason, then given on objective reason for why and not because you don't find the early rotation fun, because fun is subjective. At the end of the day, you're given enough abilities to do the content at every level.

Quote:

---

I have not said anything about the time between patches and expansions.

---

There is no other way for the word "sporadic" to be anywhere near accurate in describing character progression in FFXIV.

Quote:

---

I guess the game is not based on using skills because the gold saucer exists? Of course you can spend hours walking around cities, chatting and so on without using any skills, but that does not mean that the main part of the game is not based on using them.

---

Hence, why I said it's a good thing that the game gives you enough skills to do the relevant content that requires the use of skills.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

In the past, I may have agreed. However, the devs have routinely shown they don't give a flying hoot about balance at lower levels. Look no further than Dancer, which is hilariously OP at >50. Red Mage is comparably far stronger than Summoner and Black Mage until the 60ish mark. Meanwhile, Samurai is so comically weak at 70, it's actually out-dps'd by all three Range even in Ultimate. Once you factor in how significantly they've nerfed older content, it's more than apparent they don't pay the slightest bit of attention to balance below max level.

---

Which in a way, contributes to this "low level is boring" theme

Without proper structure, instances are farrr to easy to beat somtimes even rendering some mechs pointless due to their focus on Max level. and since all of them are a cake walk, remotely challenging fights are seen as alien thanks to nothing giving them even a once of challenge mid game. Goes for roles aswell but thats a whole other discussion progression through and through is a hot mess due to not only wayward job structures or lack of skills in some cases but the content itself

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jirah

Which only applies to a skill with 220 potency which is weaker than your Slug combo and forced to press it 5 times in a timeframe. It’s not useless but just oddly designed

---

I was specifically talking about the level range (Lv30-34) when you have hypercharge but don't have heat blast yet. The +20 potency applies to the slug combo too, because it's made up of three single-target weaponskills.

Also, when you get heat blast, the entire point of hypercharge becomes to give you a quick burst of attacks. The potency of heat blast may be weaker but it has a lower cooldown (1.5s vs. 2.5s) so it actually deals 40% more DPS. And it reduces the cooldowns of gauss round and ricochet as well so you can weave those in between each heat blast for even more damage. Not to mention the synergy with wildfire.

Oddly designed? Well yes, it changes the regular pacing of attacks. You could also say BLM is oddly designed with how the player has to manually manage MP where every other magic user can basically ignore it (aside from pressing lucid dreaming every now and then). Or RDM is oddly designed since they're mostly a caster and can stay at range but occasionally have to get in melee range for their big combo. Each class has a gimmick and some of them result in more gameplay changes than others.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linayar

There is no other way for the word "sporadic" to be anywhere near accurate in describing character progression in FFXIV.

---

Maybe "sporadic" is a bit strong, but fact is that early abilities have been getting further between with every patch. ARC and WHM don't get anything at all between levels Lv18 and Lv30. GLD and MRD have a plateau from Lv15 to Lv26. SCH only has five useful combat abilities at Lv30 and doesn't get an AoE heal until Lv35. Things generally seem to pick up after Lv30, but the levels before that seem kinda neglected.

There is no other mmo out there with better combat design. What is the point of continuing this back and forth banter?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jirah

Which in a way, contributes to this "low level is boring" theme

Without proper structure, instances are farrr to easy to beat somtimes even rendering some mechs pointless due to their focus on Max level. and since all of them are a cake walk, remotely challenging fights are seen as alien thanks to nothing giving them even a once of challenge mid game. Goes for roles aswell but thats a whole other discussion progression through and through is a hot mess due to not only wayward job structures or lack of skills in some cases but the content itself

---

While you are correct. The point remains if they aren't going to balance lower level content properly, why not clean up the skill progression and be done with it? If Dancer can blow things away to a comical degree, then let Bard have Wanderer's before 50. Personally, I'd prefer the both fix how unbalanced lower level content is but also tweak skill progression because certain jobs feel awful at lower levels. Things such as Dragoon and Ninja not getting an AoE until level 40; the former not getting its full AoE combo until 72. Dark Knight being the only tank without an AoE mitigation at 70. And that isn't even how boring some jobs are to play synced (Dancer is often criticised due to not having Flourish).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reap00

There is no other mmo out there with better combat design. What is the point of continuing this back and forth banter?

---

Just maaaaybe because "There is no other mmo out there with better combat design." is a subjective statement with no arguments made to back it up. And even if we assume that there is indeed no other game that does it better right now, doesn't mean that it can't be improved.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linayar

Now, if you're saying that somehow those early abilities don't count for whatever reason, then given on objective reason for why and not because you don't find the early rotation fun, because fun is subjective. At the end of the day, you're given enough abilities to do the content at every level.

---

I don't know about you, but I don't use "return" in my rotation, neither is the melee classes ranged attack a part of it. They count, but the problem with such abilities is that you rarely use them. Bard has 7 skills at lvl 29, but 80% of your skill usage consists of heavy shot.
And I don't know what makes you think that criticism based on the level of enjoyment you get from a video game is illegitimate? That's the whole point of the product. But if all that counts is that the game functions and you can finish it, then I guess there's nothing to complain about.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linayar

There is no other way for the word "sporadic" to be anywhere near accurate in describing character progression in FFXIV.

---

There is an obvious bump in skill progression at lvl 50 for most classes. Before this the skills mostly consist of your basic attack chain along with some rather generic "buff damage by X for Y seconds" and, if you're a melee job, some ranged attack that's almost never used. Then, somewhere between 64 and 70, the skill acquisition suddenly drops again till 80. Sure, maybe "sporadic" might be a bit harsh, but it sure don't come across as gradual.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linayar

Hence, why I said it's a good thing that the game gives you enough skills to do the relevant content that requires the use of skills.

---

This is not about being unable to do the content however.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cetek14

And it's only going to get worse with each expansion.

All jobs should have full kit at lvl 50, and from that point only traits that eventually upgrade animation (with option to toggle them off, in case you don't like new animation, would be great for MCH to disable heated actions). Change my mind.

---

This is just insane and not how any MMO has ever worked. For one major reason this is FF14 and your idea would literally break all content between level 1-50 and also destroy Palace of the Dead runs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tdb

Maybe "sporadic" is a bit strong, but fact is that early abilities have been getting further between with every patch. ARC and WHM don't get anything at all between levels Lv18 and Lv30. GLD and MRD have a plateau from Lv15 to Lv26. SCH only has five useful combat abilities at Lv30 and doesn't get an AoE heal until Lv35. Things generally seem to pick up after Lv30, but the levels before that seem kinda neglected.

---

You're forgetting role actions and traits.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lumberfoot

I don't know about you, but I don't use "return" in my rotation, neither is the melee classes ranged attack a part of it. They count, but the problem with such abilities is that you rarely use them. Bard has 7 skills at lvl 29, but 80% of your skill usage consists of heavy shot.
And I don't know what makes you think that criticism based on the level of enjoyment you get from a video game is illegitimate? That's the whole point of the product. But if all that counts is that the game functions and you can finish it, then I guess there's nothing to complain about.

---

Criticism based on the level of enjoyment is legitimate. What's not legitimate is making false implications like, "No other RPG that I have ever played have waited until the later half of the game to start giving your character abilities." Your enjoyment of what abilities this game gives you is irrelevant to the fact that this game does not wait until the "latter half" to "start" giving your character abilities.

Quote:

---

There is an obvious bump in skill progression at lvl 50 for most classes. Before this the skills mostly consist of your basic attack chain along with some rather generic "buff damage by X for Y seconds" and, if you're a melee job, some ranged attack that's almost never used. Then, somewhere between 64 and 70, the skill acquisition suddenly drops again till 80. Sure, maybe "sporadic" might be a bit harsh, but it sure don't come across as gradual.

---

Gradual: "taking place or progressing slowly by degrees." The degrees may differ at different parts of the progression, but you are still gradually gaining abilities as you level.

Quote:

---

This is not about being unable to do the content however.

---

I understand that you are trying to argue about the fun factor, but I do find it fun to play with less abilities from time to time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linayar

You're forgetting role actions and traits.

---

Fair enough. WHM and SCH get lucid dreaming at Lv24, which is fairly significant. PLD and WAR get reprisal at Lv22, which is also useful. ARC on the other hand gets head graze at Lv24 - extremely situational, a handful of dungeons have something it can be used on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tdb

Fair enough. WHM and SCH get lucid dreaming at Lv24, which is fairly significant. PLD and WAR get reprisal at Lv22, which is also useful. ARC on the other hand gets head graze at Lv24 - extremely situational, a handful of dungeons have something it can be used on.

---

And that's how this game works. You get abilities here and there as you level and you get passive traits that can improve your performance even if they don't necessarily change your gameplay (though they can also do that). Those abilities may form part of your core rotation or they might be more situational in nature, but they're there.

You can criticize specific aspects of certain jobs/roles, but I don't think the answer is frontloading most of every job's abilities at the beginning. Given the progression of this game, it makes more sense to me that you have (much) less abilities at the beginning than at the end.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linayar

You can criticize specific aspects of certain jobs/roles, but I don't think the answer is frontloading most of every job's abilities at the beginning. Given the progression of this game, it makes more sense to me that you have (much) less abilities at the beginning than at the end.

---

Neither can we keep moving the abilities to higher and higher levels either, or we'll end up doing Sastasha with one button.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tdb

Neither can we keep moving the abilities to higher and higher levels either, or we'll end up doing Sastasha with one button.

---

Don't exaggerate. Over the last 6 years it's never gone to fewer abilities at the early levels, with the exception of cross-class skills.

The minimum for Sastasha, by the way, is 2 buttons for Ninja if you don't count throwing knives. Most DPS have about 5 at that level.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DPZ2

Don't exaggerate. Over the last 6 years it's never gone to fewer abilities at the early levels, with the exception of cross-class skills.

---

Is that so? Let's see. I summon the power of the wiki to see into the past.

ARC used to have Misery's End (oGCD attack against injured enemies) at Lv8, Shadowbind (root) at Lv10 and Hawk's Eye (dex/accuracy buff) at Lv26. They no longer have any of those and nothing was added to replace them.

ROG used to have Kiss of the Wasp (attack buff) at Lv6, Mutilate (DoT) at Lv8, Assassinate at Lv12, Goad (TP refresh) at Lv18, Sneak Attack at Lv22 and Kiss of the Viper (alternate attack buff) at Lv30. Assassinate got moved to a much higher level, the others were removed. Trick Attack got moved down to Lv18 and Shadow Fang to Lv30, but it's still a net loss of buttons.

CNJ used to have Cleric Stance (attack/heal switch) at Lv6 and Protect at Lv8. Those got first moved to role actions and later removed entirely. Nothing was added to replace them.

MRD used to have Foresight (defensive buff) at Lv2, Skull Sunder (alternate combo attack) at Lv4, Fracture (DoT) at Lv6, Bloodbath (life leech) at Lv8, Brutal Swing (stunning attack) at Lv10 and Mercy Stroke (oGCD attack against injured enemies) at Lv26. Foresight was combined into Rampart and made a role action, others were removed. Defiance was added at Lv10, Storm's Path got moved down to Lv26 and Thrill of Battle to Lv30, but it's still a net loss of buttons.

I'm not counting role actions as gains here, since they were introduced to replace cross-class skills and offer much less options, so the removal of cross-class skills can be seen as a huge loss as well.

Still want to tell me how the number of abilities has never decreased? I can dig up more examples.

(On the off chance that by "never gone to fewer abilities" you meant "we're at an all-time low number of abilities" I agree with you.)

"Sastasha with one button" was indeed hyperbole and I don't really expect SE to go quite that far.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tdb

Neither can we keep moving the abilities to higher and higher levels either, or we'll end up doing Sastasha with one button.

---

Well, we'll cross that bridge when and if we get there. Until then, I'm happy with what they've done so far, for the most part.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linayar

Criticism based on the level of enjoyment is legitimate. What's not legitimate is making false implications like, "No other RPG that I have ever played have waited until the later half of the game to start giving your character abilities." Your enjoyment of what abilities this game gives you is irrelevant to the fact that this game does not wait until the "latter half" to "start" giving your character abilities.

---

I thought that would be such a obviously exaggeration that it would be clear that I wasn't being serious, but I guess not. Of course you get skills before the half way mark, but the majority of them are learned in the latter half.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linayar

Gradual: "taking place or progressing slowly by degrees." The degrees may differ at different parts of the progression, but you are still gradually gaining abilities as you level.

---

Sorry but when the degree vary as much as they do here (you are actually making quite fast progress during certain parts) the definition of gradual you posted does not apply. If you would make a curve out of the skill acquisition over the levels, it would not represent something I would call gradual.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linayar

I understand that you are trying to argue about the fun factor, but I do find it fun to play with less abilities from time to time.

---

That's fine, I'm not trying to argue that you're not allowed to enjoy it.

I can’t really speak for other players, but as a controller player, I’m happy to accommodate at maximum, 32 active abilities on my hot bars, between each button switch on the controller. Right now it seems 24 is roughly their limit as far as bloat is concerned. I think Paladins have the most active abilities (including role actions).

As for in between, some more traits would actually be nice. I thought “All-fours” on Ninja was pretty cool, that reduces fall damage. Not really necessary but still cool. I would have loved to see a “Hi-Jump” on Dragoon, or other something like that. CC resistances could be cool too- FFXI had this. Small passives that characterize the job a little better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lumberfoot

I thought that would be such a obviously exaggeration that it would be clear that I wasn't being serious, but I guess not.

---

Exaggerations and hyperboles just don't work well when trying to make an argument.

Quote:

---

Of course you get skills before the half way mark, but the majority of them are learned in the latter half.

---

Perhaps, but that fits the scale of the progression better. It takes less experience to level through the first 40 levels than it does to level through the second 40 levels.

Quote:

---

Sorry but when the degree vary as much as they do here (you are actually making quite fast progress during certain parts) the definition of gradual you posted does not apply. If you would make a curve out of the skill acquisition over the levels, it would not represent something I would call gradual.

---

Yes, fast in certain parts, but the overall picture still shows a gradual progression.

Quote:

---

That's fine, I'm not trying to argue that you're not allowed to enjoy it.

---

Obviously, because there's not much point in arguing subjective preferences. That's why an objective reason could be helpful.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linayar

Perhaps, but that fits the scale of the progression better. It takes less experience to level through the first 40 levels than it does to level through the second 40 levels.

---

You also gain experience faster in the latter half, though the amount of experience required to level up grows somewhat faster. Going purely by the number of experience points, Lv74 is the halfway point. Time required to level up would be a better metric but numbers for that are harder to come by.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tdb

Time required to level up would be a better metric but numbers for that are harder to come by.

---

That's because there are many different factors to consider, like different exp buffs that apply at different ranges (usually lower than higher) or whether you're caught up with MSQ (assuming you're leveling while doing MSQ) or just what content you do to level.

Either way, having more at the beginning just doesn't make as much sense considering leveling is done once per job (per character), so the focus of the character will always be more toward the higher end of the level range. And no, syncing doesn't count because that has its own concerns and people don't have to do content that syncs them down if they're really against playing with the lower level rotations.

HardcoreRaider, is that you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linayar

Exaggerations and hyperboles just don't work well when trying to make an argument.

---

That's why I didn't include them in the original argument, which was essentially the same.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linayar

Perhaps, but that fits the scale of the progression better. It takes less experience to level through the first 40 levels than it does to level through the second 40 levels.

---

I would look at the time it takes as opposed to the amount of experience, but even then it is only true after you're done with MSQ, otherwise you're stuck around level 50/60/70 for substantial amounts of time. And considering most of the most effective leveling methods scale to your level its not that much slower later on. Beast tribe quests even give more experience percentage-wise as you move to later expansions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linayar

Yes, fast in certain parts, but the overall picture still shows a gradual progression.

---

I stand by my previous argument that the curve is not gradual.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linayar

Obviously, because there's not much point in arguing subjective preferences. That's why an objective reason could be helpful.

---

I don't agree that discussing different opinions of subjective matters is pointless, but I'm not gonna push it any further.

An objective reason would be that you learn your jobs skills and rotation properly before jumping into high level content. Dark knight spends 40 levels condition you to use your MP to spam damage abilities and then suddenly throws TBN at you at 70, just in time for the more challenging dungeons where proper use of such a crucial ability would be useful. The addition of the enochian timer and fire IV (that doesn't refresh umbral fire) for black mage completely changes the job and makes any previous rotation obsolete unless you go back to lower level content.

Another reason, one which I gave earlier, is that it would be far easier to figure out if you like a job or not without having to make such a substantial time-investment. Sitting through 50-60 levels with only the most basic abilities only to realize that the job wasn't as fun as you thought it would be is very disheartening.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lumberfoot

I would look at the time it takes as opposed to the amount of experience, but even then it is only true after you're done with MSQ, otherwise you're stuck around level 50/60/70 for substantial amounts of time. And considering most of the most effective leveling methods scale to your level its not that much slower later on. Beast tribe quests even give more experience percentage-wise as you move to later expansions.

---

The time it takes could vary from player to player and job to job. And even with reward scaling, there is still no beating early level gains, especially with more exp buffs existing at lower levels.

Quote:

---

I stand by my previous argument that the curve is not gradual.

---

Not really. For example:

Dragoon
1-50: 13 actions, 6 role actions, 0 trait.
51-70: 9 actions, 0 role action, 2 traits
71-80: 4 actions, 0 role action, 3 traits

Black Mage
1-50: 17 actions, 4 role actions, 5 traits
51-70: 9 actions, 0 role action, 4 traits
71-80: 3 actions, 0 role action, 4 traits

Bard
1-50: 14 actions, 6 role actions, 3 traits
51-70: 10 actions, 0 role action, 3 traits
71-80: 3 actions, 0 role action, 5 traits

Quote:

---

An objective reason would be that you learn your jobs skills and rotation properly before jumping into high level content. Dark knight spends 40 levels condition you to use your MP to spam damage abilities and then suddenly throws TBN at you at 70, just in time for the more challenging dungeons where proper use of such a crucial ability would be useful. The addition of the enochian timer and fire IV (that doesn't refresh umbral fire) for black mage completely changes the job and makes any previous rotation obsolete unless you go back to lower level content.

---

FFXIV dungeons are not hard enough where you cannot learn your new skill at the appropriate level dungeon. And the fact that you can go to lower level content means rotations at those levels are never obsolete.

Quote:

---

Another reason, one which I gave earlier, is that it would be far easier to figure out if you like a job or not without having to make such a substantial time-investment. Sitting through 50-60 levels with only the most basic abilities only to realize that the job wasn't as fun as you thought it would be is very disheartening.

---

That "issue" is mitigated by the fact that you can learn all jobs on the same character, so you don't lose anything substantial trying out any job. And really, in an MMORPG, making time investment is a given. And considering a job can change from patch to patch and especially from expansion to expansion, there is always the risk of you not liking the current iteration of the job.

I do agree that it would be nice if there was a rethink of skill growth over the course of the game. It's true that the early game can be pretty barren for some classes, and it's also true that some classes pretty fundamentally change once they hit certain levelling break points which can lead to you liking the feel of a job early on and then just not liking how they end up 60 levels deep. I'm imagining this will all be worked out in time but it will probably take more work than it seems on the surface.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linayar

The time it takes could vary from player to player and job to job. And even with reward scaling, there is still no beating early level gains, especially with more exp buffs existing at lower levels.

---

You spend a lot of time doing post-ARR MSQ, no matter how fast you level to that point you're still stuck there. Its not all about alt jobs. And I don't view this as a good excuse to have such as slow early game.

Quote:

---

Not really. For example:
Dragoon
1-50: 13 actions, 6 role actions, 0 trait.
51-70: 9 actions, 0 role action, 2 traits
71-80: 4 actions, 0 role action, 3 traits

---

Dragoon gets 11 job specific actions 1-49, after this its given 1 new action every 2 levels till 62 (8 total) except for 50 when it gains 2, and then another 7 63-80. That's 32,5% of the job specific skills in a span of only 12 levels (50-62) and this is what I mean with the sudden bump in skill acquisition. Other classes are similar, such as BLM gaining 28% and Bard 26% in the same level span. If it was gradual you would expect to gain about 15% of your job skills in this span. Instead its saturated around the HW expansion, meaning content before and after this will end up lacking the same pace of skill progression.

Quote:

---

FFXIV dungeons are not hard enough where you cannot learn your new skill at the appropriate level dungeon.

---

There's definitively a difference between post ShB and ShB dungeon difficulty. Its not the most difficult content ever, but if you are used to the easier content it comes across as strange and even chaotic (depending on the job) to have both new core skills and an increase in difficulty at the same time, when a lot of skills could simply have been added earlier.

Quote:

---

And the fact that you can go to lower level content means rotations at those levels are never obsolete.

---

That's why I said "unless you go back to lower level content". One might also question why BLM before and after 60 almost plays as 2 different jobs. If you actually enjoy the simple gameplay of spamming fire I with the occasional firestarter proc and then switching to ice for MP regen, the new playstyle relying on keeping track of timer might turn you away from the job altogether.[/QUOTE]

Quote:

---

That "issue" is mitigated by the fact that you can learn all jobs on the same character, so you don't lose anything substantial trying out any job. And really, in an MMORPG, making time investment is a given.

---

Sure you don't have to do the MSQ over again, but it doesn't mitigate it at all. You still have to level up a new job, not unlike leveling up a new alt. And whether or not a time investment is expected, leveling a job that you end up not wanting to play is simply a waste.

Quote:

---

And considering a job can change from patch to patch and especially from expansion to expansion, there is always the risk of you not liking the current iteration of the job.

---

Yes, but that's a totally different issue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lumberfoot

If it was gradual you would expect to gain about 15% of your job skills in this span. Instead its saturated around the HW expansion, meaning content before and after this will end up lacking the same pace of skill progression.

---

No, gradual doesn't have to fit into any specific distribution. It's a generic term, and the skill distributions I listed still showed a gradual progression.

Quote:

---

There's definitively a difference between post ShB and ShB dungeon difficulty. Its not the most difficult content ever, but if you are used to the easier content it comes across as strange and even chaotic (depending on the job) to have both new core skills and an increase in difficulty at the same time, when a lot of skills could simply have been added earlier.

---

Some of the earlier dungeons are more difficult than the newer dungeons. The only danger the newer dungeons pose is if you pull more than your group can handle, but that's also true in the older dungeons as well. And people have the time to adjust because there is a gradual progression of skill. You can take the time to read what each new ability gives you as you level as well as the help text for the job gauges.

Quote:

---

That's why I said "unless you go back to lower level content". One might also question why BLM before and after 60 almost plays as 2 different jobs. If you actually enjoy the simple gameplay of spamming fire I with the occasional firestarter proc and then switching to ice for MP regen, the new playstyle relying on keeping track of timer might turn you away from the job altogether.

Sure you don't have to do the MSQ over again, but it doesn't mitigate it at all. You still have to level up a new job, not unlike leveling up a new alt. And whether or not a time investment is expected, leveling a job that you end up not wanting to play is simply a waste.

Yes, but that's a totally different issue.

---

This is a game of change. A game where your character progresses in some way. If you don't want to take the time to learn the changes, then that's on you to decide.

Anytime someone says X game has the most boring early game I tell them to go play a Ret Paladin in WoW. Start from level one and just go to lvl 15 or 20. It's the most painfully boring experiences I've had to go through... and I'm leveling every single Job right now all together through PotD.

lol @Kyrj

The potd is best place because it unlocks all skills to lvl 60. Even as lvl one with no soul stone, You have much more to feel how job plays because unlocked skills.

I will mention You that in HW we had ALL skills to play with because game max level was 60, now jobs are chopped off.

Your comment I find funny and I take as irrelevant >_<, because what? You are saying about one thing about wow how worse it is, and then jumping into potd (it is like avoiding the debate, because potd grants you skills hyper fast) and the WoW example >_< . Like what? We can't have faster progression because wow has slower 6_9?

I am playing games since my life time, and the game is ridiculous easy and slow, if not my friends pushing me forward I would not stick around.

I understand that, the game is tuned to people who never ever played anything before, and is Ultra casual in that regard.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linayar

No, gradual doesn't have to fit into any specific distribution. It's a generic term, and the skill distributions I listed still showed a gradual progression.

---

So really you could acquire 80% of your skills during the first 20 levels followed by 1 new skill every 10 leves and still have a gradual progression? It must do since there is no requirement for a specific distribution. Not saying it should be that way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linayar

Some of the earlier dungeons are more difficult than the newer dungeons. The only danger the newer dungeons pose is if you pull more than your group can handle, but that's also true in the older dungeons as well. And people have the time to adjust because there is a gradual progression of skill. You can take the time to read what each new ability gives you as you level as well as the help text for the job gauges.

---

The mobs in holminster switch and onwards have a lot more health and hits a lot harder then previously (relatively of course), not to mention that healing potency starts to diminish at the same point making damage mitigation more important. Pulling more than you can handle is a bit too generic as an argument for me as it true for literally every dungeon in pretty much any mmorpg.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linayar

This is a game of change. A game where your character progresses in some way. If you don't want to take the time to learn the changes, then that's on you to decide.

---

I don't know where the claim that "this is a game of change" comes from, but character progression and a complete change in the way the job plays is not the same.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kyrj

Anytime someone says X game has the most boring early game I tell them to go play a Ret Paladin in WoW. Start from level one and just go to lvl 15 or 20. It's the most painfully boring experiences I've had to go through... and I'm leveling every single Job right now all together through PotD.

---

As it happens I did play ret paladin during BC and WotLK. In Hindsight it should have been really boring, but those were different times with different expectations. And just because you can think of a more boring experience doesn't mean this game doesn't have boring parts. Playing with only 2 skills is still more fun than watching grass grow.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lumberfoot

So really you could acquire 80% of your skills during the first 20 levels followed by 1 new skill every 10 leves and still have a gradual progression?

---

Yes.

Quote:

---

The mobs in holminster switch and onwards have a lot more health and hits a lot harder then previously (relatively of course), not to mention that healing potency starts to diminish at the same point making damage mitigation more important. Pulling more than you can handle is a bit too generic as an argument for me as it true for literally every dungeon in pretty much any mmorpg.

---

Pulling more is really the only thing that can make it harder in a dungeon. You have more abilities to attack the enemies while at the same time defend yourselves from them.

Quote:

---

I don't know where the claim that "this is a game of change" comes from, but character progression and a complete change in the way the job plays is not the same.

---

Progression can and does indeed change the way a job may play in this game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linayar

Yes.

---

Which means that using the term "gradual" is essentially meaningless. It would also mean that a "sporadic" progression would be included in the term as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linayar

Pulling more is really the only thing that can make it harder in a dungeon. You have more abilities to attack the enemies while at the same time defend yourselves from them.

---

You do indeed have more abilities that you need to keep track of to make the run as smooth as earlier dungeons. If the game is balanced the difficulty will take the additional abilities into account and require you to use them properly, meaning that additional offensive and defensive abilities does not make the dungeon easier.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linayar

Progression can and does indeed change the way a job may play in this game.

---

Not what I was disputing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lumberfoot

Which means that using the term "gradual" is essentially meaningless. It would also mean that a "sporadic" progression would be included in the term as well.

---

If, by sporadic, you just mean it has irregular interval, then sure, it can be both sporadic and gradual at the same time in that way. But you were contrasting them, saying it's sporadic instead of gradual, so my point is that it is still gradual. Gradual is not meaningless as it means that you are getting skills throughout the leveling process.

Getting skills through job quests is an example of something that is sporadic, but not gradual. There are huge gaps where you don't get any skill through job quests, including the entirety of the current expansion (though it only has one job quest, to be fair) or the previous expansion where you only get a skill in the last job quest.

Quote:

---

You do indeed have more abilities that you need to keep track of to make the run as smooth as earlier dungeons. If the game is balanced the difficulty will take the additional abilities into account and require you to use them properly, meaning that additional offensive and defensive abilities does not make the dungeon easier.

---

Then that just means the dungeons are even easier by default.

Quote:

---

Not what I was disputing.

---

Then either accept it or play another game. If you don't want to spend the time leveling a job because you're afraid you might not like the job at the end of your current progression, then this game is not for you, because even if you like a job now, a new expansion will come, you level it another 10 levels, and then all of a sudden you may not like it any more. That is the nature of this game and why being able to do all jobs on one character is helpful in that regard.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linayar

If, by sporadic, you just mean it has irregular interval, then sure, it can be both sporadic and gradual at the same time in that way. But you were contrasting them, saying it's sporadic instead of gradual, so my point is that it is still gradual. Gradual is not meaningless as it means that you are getting skills throughout the leveling process.

---

I contrast them because I don't share your definition of gradual.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linayar

Then that just means the dungeons are even easier by default.

---

It does not. The point is that the dungeon is harder even when accounting for the addition of new abilities, which at the same time means the player have to keep track of more things.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linayar

Then either accept it or play another game. If you don't want to spend the time leveling a job because you're afraid you might not like the job at the end of your current progression, then this game is not for you, because even if you like a job now, a new expansion will come, you level it another 10 levels, and then all of a sudden you may not like it any more. That is the nature of this game and why being able to do all jobs on one character is helpful in that regard.

---

Right. Don't critique the game. Just accept it or leave. If this is your stance on the matter I don't understand why you even bother discussing it.

This feels like its getting out of hand. My suggestion was simply to improve the early game and making it more clear what the job will be at an earlier stage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lumberfoot

You do indeed have more abilities that you need to keep track of to make the run as smooth as earlier dungeons. If the game is balanced the difficulty will take the additional abilities into account and require you to use them properly, meaning that additional offensive and defensive abilities does not make the dungeon easier.

---

Which can then overwhelm the new, inexperienced player that's been given too much to learn at once if those new skills are introduced too rapidly compared to the pace of character progression. Those new players then get frustrated and quit because they feel the game is too complex/difficult to learn.

Game developers can't afford to assume every player is a veteran gamer able to figure out how to use large number of abilities quickly and easily because the truth is most aren't. There are people who have been playing online games for years that can still struggle to understand what they're supposed to do. Skills needed to be gradually introduced over time instead of being front-loaded. Or they need to be so limited in number overall that dragging out introduction makes no sense.

It is good for the "job-changing" skills to come late because getting those skills helps to emphasize the character has truly become more powerful over time. I'm not going to feel that my character more powerful at 80 than I do at 50 if my job effectively plays the same at both levels. I'm going to feel like it's the higher level gear that's powerful, not my character. Might as well just cut off the level cap at 50 in that case - your character is done. It can't learn more. It can only get more gear.

Character development is far more interesting (at least to me) than having to pick up a new set of gear every 5-10 levels to get more powerful while my character stagnates.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jojoya

Which can then overwhelm the new, inexperienced player that's been given too much to learn at once if those new skills are introduced too rapidly compared to the pace of character progression. Those new players then get frustrated and quit because they feel the game is too complex/difficult to learn.

Game developers can't afford to assume every player is a veteran gamer able to figure out how to use large number of abilities quickly and easily because the truth is most aren't. There are people who have been playing online games for years that can still struggle to understand what they're supposed to do. Skills needed to be gradually introduced over time instead of being front-loaded. Or they need to be so limited in number overall that dragging out introduction makes no sense.

It is good for the "job-changing" skills to come late because getting those skills helps to emphasize the character has truly become more powerful over time. I'm not going to feel that my character more powerful at 80 than I do at 50 if my job effectively plays the same at both levels. I'm going to feel like it's the higher level gear that's powerful, not my character. Might as well just cut off the level cap at 50 in that case - your character is done. It can't learn more. It can only get more gear.

---

Yep, exactly. Well said.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cetek14

would be great for MCH to disable heated actions).

---

I'm a returning player after 4 years, so please pardon my ignorance. I've seen this acronym a few times. Can someone tell me what it stands for? Thanks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StrykerGaming

I'm a returning player after 4 years, so please pardon my ignorance. I've seen this acronym a few times. Can someone tell me what it stands for? Thanks.

---

https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Machinist

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lumberfoot

I contrast them because I don't share your definition of gradual.

---

You contrasted them in response to Jojoya saying our characters "gradually get stronger," but the contrast does not disprove that statement.

Quote:

---

It does not. The point is that the dungeon is harder even when accounting for the addition of new abilities, which at the same time means the player have to keep track of more things.

---

Uh, what? The player have to keep track of more things and yet the dungeon is still easily done. The dungeons are not harder relative to your abilities.

Quote:

---

Right. Don't critique the game. Just accept it or leave. If this is your stance on the matter I don't understand why you even bother discussing it.

This feels like its getting out of hand. My suggestion was simply to improve the early game and making it more clear what the job will be at an earlier stage.

---

Accepting how the core of the game works, that your character progresses throughout the leveling process, is not saying don't critique the game.

But it is fair to say that, if you don't like how the game works, you can leave it to others and play another game that works in a way that you would enjoy better.