FFXIV Devs: Please STOP punishing normal players for others breaking the rules.

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Originally Posted by Arcari

Sounds like even if SE kept the ability to move waymarks mid-fight, the person behind this tool DGAF and is gonna keep using it and distributing it until they're forced to stop.

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The goal is to remove incentive to use it, not necessarily stop it. The former would naturally lead to the latter, but aiming strictly for the latter will backfire more than not.

What Phantom and the rest of us are repeatedly saying is that whoever made it won't give a damn regardless, but SE took an action that won't let legitimate players replicate the results through in-game means themselves.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

The goal is to remove incentive to use it, not necessarily stop it. The former would naturally lead to the latter, but aiming strictly for the latter will backfire more than not.

What Phantom and the rest of us are repeatedly saying is that whoever made it won't give a damn regardless, but SE took an action that won't let legitimate players replicate the results through in-game means themselves.

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A question for you, then. I believe you stated that if SE keeps the ability for us legitimate players to move waymarks in combat, that would go a long way towards killing this program, or removing the incentive to use it, as you put it. Do you stand by that?

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Originally Posted by Arcari

A question for you, then. I believe you stated that if SE keeps the ability for us legitimate players to move waymarks in combat, that would go a long way towards killing this program, or removing the incentive to use it, as you put it. Do you stand by that?

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If they allowed you to use the presets during the fight? Yeah, it would severally limit the use of the 3rd party program. Obviously some people would still use it, but why bother when the game makes it just as easy to use from the tools in the game and you don't have to go through the headache of setting up a new program?

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Originally Posted by Arcari

A question for you, then. I believe you stated that if SE keeps the ability for us legitimate players to move waymarks in combat, that would go a long way towards killing this program, or removing the incentive to use it, as you put it. Do you stand by that?

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The creator of the program has outright said they only made it because they felt marker placement should be available in game. There intend was to draw attention and hope SE implemented it themselves—much the same as WoW did when they found a useful add on stepped a little too far. And wouldn't you know it, that's exactly what happened. Except SE stupidly blocked marker placement as a whole. Which is why the tool is being tweaked. Had they let us adjust presets and make the overall feature at least comparably easy to use if not outright better, then the incentive to use a third party alternative dies.

For years the music cried and whined about piracy yet once iTune came out, offering both a convenient and reasonable price model, music piracy dropped for the first time in history. Most people will opt for official tools or options even if they come with a cost, provided those features are good.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

The creator of the program has outright said they only made it because they felt marker placement should be available in game. There intend was to draw attention and hope SE implemented it themselves—much the same as WoW did when they found a useful add on stepped a little too far. And wouldn't you know it, that's exactly what happened. Except SE stupidly blocked marker placement as a whole. Which is why the tool is being tweaked. Had they let us adjust presets and make the overall feature at least comparably easy to use if not outright better, then the incentive to use a third party alternative dies.

For years the music cried and whined about piracy yet once iTune came out, offering both a convenient and reasonable price model, music piracy dropped for the first time in history. Most people will opt for official tools or options even if they come with a cost, provided those features are good.

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So why not just make a suggestion about it here in the forums? I'm sure SE would've appreciated the feedback if it was presented to them. Why did the creator of this program feel like they had to go this route of making it themselves, knowing that it might come back to bite them (or other players, as we're now witnessing) in the rear? I don't think their motives are quite as altruistic as you're suggesting.

...Yes, I am enjoying playing Devil's Advocate right now.

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Originally Posted by Arcari

So why not just make a suggestion about it here in the forums? I'm sure SE would've appreciated the feedback if it was presented to them. Why did the creator of this program feel like they had to go this route of making it themselves, knowing that it might come back to bite them (or other players, as we're now witnessing) in the rear? I don't think their motives are quite as altruistic as you're suggesting.

...Yes, I am enjoying playing Devil's Advocate right now.

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I remember reading a couple of threads about people wanting waymarks to be automatic. It's been suggested several times, it wasn't' until someone did something they weren't supposed to on a popular stream that the devs decided to look into it.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Going to be great for 24 mans. Tank rushes in and immediately pulls, you're locked out from placing A-B-C markers for the adds, raid proceeds to scatter like headless chickens.

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This. I place waypoints in almost every 24-person and it almost exclusively occurs during the fight because someone ran in immediately and started.

Not only will presets not be a good enough workaround in a lot of cases, but a few times I've had my waypoints removed during a fight and had to re-place them. Though people will likely be unable to remove them mid-fight as well now, assuming those people are just jerks who are trying to mess people up they can easily press the remove button and then pull, cementing a lack of waypoints for the entire fight.

It might work a little better if they allow you up until the closure of the arena to place them, but it doesn't sound like that's the plan so far.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino

This. I place waypoints in almost every 24-person and it almost exclusively occurs during the fight because someone ran in immediately and started.

Not only will presets not be a good enough workaround in a lot of cases, but a few times I've had my waypoints removed during a fight and had to re-place them. Though people will likely be unable to remove them mid-fight as well now, assuming those people are just jerks who are trying to mess people up they can easily press the remove button and then pull, cementing a lack of waypoints for the entire fight.

It might work a little better if they allow you up until the closure of the arena to place them, but it doesn't sound like that's the plan so far.

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I've also had plenty of Alliance runs where somebody puts markers in either the wrong place, a weird place, or a different order than the majority of groups I'm in place them... so people end up all kinds of messed up either because they try to follow the bad markers or because they're used to A being where B is and end up with the wrong alliance because only half the raid is following those markers at all.

I usually at least try to fix the markers when they get messed up like that, but uh... not anymore, I guess.

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

I remember reading a couple of threads about people wanting waymarks to be automatic. It's been suggested several times, it wasn't' until someone did something they weren't supposed to on a popular stream that the devs decided to look into it.

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Alright then:

-Were these popular threads? Did a lot of the community rally behind them, give them a lot of likes, etc?
-Was the feedback detailed and thorough as much as possible?
-Did the community team do their jobs and pass said feedback to the dev team for consideration, if the above two are true?

I'm not really expecting answers to any of those questions (especially to that third one because I don't think anyone wants to open that can of worms tonight); it's just stuff to consider.

I need to get some sleep so I'll close out with this. I firmly believe that official channels exist for a reason. If you (general you) feel that you have an awesome idea for the game's systems, use said channels. Don't go rushing to implement some 3rd party tool to get the job done, because it could very well come back to bite you or anyone else. We probably could've had this waymark preset stuff sooner if the community had been more vocal about it, and probably without the scorched earth condition that SE threw in with it because people wanted to use their 3rd party tools instead. Right now, I'm not feeling much appreciation towards SE or my fellow adventurers right now (the ones using the tools) in regards to this manner.

Have a good night, everyone. I appreciated the discussion.

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Originally Posted by Arcari

So why not just make a suggestion about it here in the forums? I'm sure SE would've appreciated the feedback if it was presented to them. Why did the creator of this program feel like they had to go this route of making it themselves, knowing that it might come back to bite them (or other players, as we're now witnessing) in the rear? I don't think their motives are quite as altruistic as you're suggesting.

...Yes, I am enjoying playing Devil's Advocate right now.

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How did it bite them in the rear? Their end goal was for SE to implement a variation of their program into the game itself—which is precisely what they're doing. They acknowledged what they set out to achieve.

As for posting feedback. The dev team isn't exactly quick when it comes to addressing it. We needs only look at the myriad of jobs that have suffered over the years; Monk in particular. I can all but guarantee we'd never see this feature were it not for how prevalent that program became.

Sadly, the most vocal minority makes the most noise and thus the devs cater to them.
It's really sad to be honest.

It's a pretty senseless change and much like the "greed only" 24 man loot system i hope this one doesn't stick around as well.

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Originally Posted by Arillyn

Probably an unpopular option - but for the world first teams where Yoshi saw them using these they could ban them even if just temporarily. I mean, he SAW them using it and that's what prompted this in the first place.

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I think it speaks volumes when the devs can actually SEE you cheating and still wont punish you or take any action. All it does is prove that the devs really don't care at all. Its no wonder theres so many botters and stuff around because even if the devs see you botting they wont do anything other than say an absolute meaningless "Please don't" which gets totally ignored.

And people wonder why things are in the state there in...

Does this mean I cant write CID in Castrum no more?
Well that does it!

For me it's great addon

Farming Extremes / Savages

Now instead of taking my time - just simple click and done

( even better- we can have pressers [ for example three different would do the job, because most fights have two - three phases ])

I don't understand people going angry/upset about it

I think to myself " it's as usual " no matter what we get it's always QQ time

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Originally Posted by testname

( even better- we can have pressers [ for example three different would do the job, because most fights have two - three phases ])

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You can't change them in fight now, so you can't put different markers for another phase.

This change really only scratches the surface of the stuff people are using to get an advantage in raids and as pointed out harms people who were playing fair and adjusting the markers manually instead of with a bot.

They'd need to add some encryption to the data being sent to the client from the server if they don't want people using ACT to announce mechanics way before they actually happen.

Or no markers at all in the 2nd phase of Shinryuu. It's not like I can add those before the fight.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

I think it speaks volumes when the devs can actually SEE you cheating and still wont punish you or take any action. All it does is prove that the devs really don't care at all. Its no wonder theres so many botters and stuff around because even if the devs see you botting they wont do anything other than say an absolute meaningless "Please don't" which gets totally ignored.

And people wonder why things are in the state there in...

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He said in the letter he didn't know it even existed to begin with. It was brought up in discussion, so he finally had to say something

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Originally Posted by rance-sama

Sadly, the most vocal minority makes the most noise and thus the devs cater to them.
It's really sad to be honest.

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Since when cheaters are the silent majority? That is sad....

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Originally Posted by Rhus

Does this mean I cant write CID in Castrum no more?
Well that does it!

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Yeah I’ll miss doing that :(

I'm pretty upset at this.... My group is running TEA still and just got to the Judgement Nisi phase... We're trying to adapt going from Limit Cut to that but we need to move markers during that to help us understand our positioning. Really makes practicing a mechanic that much more difficult.

At the very least they should allow us to use presets during combat. It'll basically be an official version of "that application".

The waymarker change will not negatively impact the game

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Originally Posted by Fal_Kearst

The waymarker change will not negatively impact the game

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A single cut will not kill you but one thousand will.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

People use to move markers in coil T9 for the dive bombs since they could be in like 3 different patterns.

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So I assumed the Save Set system they're bringing was so you could put down the markers for all three at the start and then the marker boss person call out the pattern and which marker to use. The pattern is random but it only has 3 iterations. Is there a reason this won't be possible?

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Originally Posted by RicaRuin

You can't change them in fight now, so you can't put different markers for another phase.

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So why can't you put the markers down for all the phases at the start?

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Originally Posted by Elladie

So why can't you put the markers down for all the phases at the start?

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1. There's not enough Waymarks to do this
2. The waymarks will vary depending on the mechanic. If we took old Coil 9, the divebombs weren't always coming from the same direction. Depending on which way the divebomb was occurring you'd have to place the marks appropriately.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

1. There's not enough Waymarks to do this
2. The waymarks will vary depending on the mechanic. If we took old Coil 9, the divebombs weren't always coming from the same direction. Depending on which way the divebomb was occurring you'd have to place the marks appropriately.

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That was the one disappointing thing. I don't think giving us a couple more markers will be enough. Wish we could have gotten some more markers.

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Originally Posted by Schan

That was the one disappointing thing. I don't think giving us a couple more markers will be enough. Wish we could have gotten some more markers.

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Then for a mechanic like dive bombs you'd be littering the field with markers, ultimately destroying the entire point of having them in the first place, because now you can't separate what you need from what's just visual noise because you'd have to set up markers for every contingency. Is it only a few fights that have this problem? Sure, but this is punishing the people who did nothing wrong because of the people who cheated. The solution with the presets was genius, and if you could do those presets while in combat? BAM, problem solved, that third party tool just became irrelevant. Sure, it wouldn't disappear completely, there will always be people who cheat, just like there will always be people who buy gil, or mod their game to be lewd, or etc, but it would greatly reduce the amount of people who want to even bother with it. Why deal with setting up a pain in the ass program when the game gives you the tools and the convenience to do it within the game. It would tackle the issue of why people used the program in the first place, because setting up markers on controller/in the middle of a fight was clunky, so with that problem fixed, people aren't doing it anymore, or at least, it's been reduced, and now you don't punish the people who don't deserve to be punished. It's a win for everyone. The game becomes easier to play, raiding becomes easier to get into, it becomes easier to teach new kids how to do fights, etc.

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Originally Posted by AngelCheese77

Which would you prefer, a program that scans your pc constantly, or living without being able to put down waymarks in combat? I think I can live w/o the waymarkers in combat.

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How about any of the options outside of that false ultimatum, such as disrupting 3rd party tool users by placing an ICD on waymarkers movement, including on swaps between a smaller number of (now instance-specific) presets, rather than denying players the ability to move markers as needed altogether?

I honestly have a feeling this was a "soft ban" to see if the people who developed it is going to do a workaround and then when a prominent streamer posts using it they will get the ban hammer to scare the community

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

How about any of the options outside of that false ultimatum, such as disrupting 3rd party tool users by placing an ICD on waymarkers movement, including on swaps between a smaller number of (now instance-specific) presets, rather than denying players the ability to move markers as needed altogether?

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Pretty much this. These are supposed to be some of the smartest guys in the room, not the laziest.

This is a stupid change. Don't get me wrong I understand why they're doing it. But honestly, TEA parties will mindlessly adapt to this change like it's nothing. The markers helped a bit but weren't a big crutch to start with and players in that content are amongst the best in the game. In the meantime the other 97% of the community need to suffer because of it.

Also, kinda sucks for mechanics where different people can interpret safe spots differently.

AAAAAND I'll add that the waymark changing addon is going to move markers on the client side now so it won't change anything except for ps4 players... Just saying.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

So instead of going after the people abusing the system, SE decides that scorched earth is the better response and to completely change the system. This isn't the first time this has happened either.

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Nope, this is how SE have always been, look at FFXI to see a huge number of examples where gameplay was made hugely annoying (or worse) to prevent cheating .. and of course, most of their attempts failed to stop cheats anyway.

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Originally Posted by Pintsized

Nope, this is how SE have always been, look at FFXI to see a huge number of examples where gameplay was made hugely annoying (or worse) to prevent cheating .. and of course, most of their attempts failed to stop cheats anyway.

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The irony is the marker placement program itself was never cheating. It was a convenience tool that should have been made in-game from the getgo. We actually get almost the whole thing implemented but they just had to go and make a stupid decision to ruin it. Two steps forward, three back.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

The irony is the marker placement program itself was never cheating. It was a convenience tool that should have been made in-game from the getgo. We actually get almost the whole thing implemented but they just had to go and make a stupid decision to ruin it. Two steps forward, three back.

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Was said program made by SE? No.

Was said program actively changing data in the game? Yes. (Though only changing waymark positional data. Nothing too serious)

Guess what? That means it's cheating under ToS' guidelines. Which also means using it makes you liable for a ban. Don't like that? Don't use it.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

The irony is the marker placement program itself was never cheating. It was a convenience tool that should have been made in-game from the getgo. We actually get almost the whole thing implemented but they just had to go and make a stupid decision to ruin it. Two steps forward, three back.

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https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...k_preset_tool/

This application is literally injecting the commands into FFXIV to place the way markers. It's not doing anything malicious but if this is detected you could face serious consequences for using it, like having your account banned.

Not trying to fear-monger or anything, just a word of warning before start flinging this around and using it all over.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

The irony is the marker placement program itself was never cheating. It was a convenience tool that should have been made in-game from the getgo. We actually get almost the whole thing implemented but they just had to go and make a stupid decision to ruin it. Two steps forward, three back.

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That's the issue. Unless it is a feature provided by the game, automating game play via third party tool has never been allowed as far as I can tell.

People should have put in a concerted effort to request for this feature rather than going the route of third party tool.

Yeah I hate having to suffer for other people I'm going super casual mode only doing main story content til thet fix things for the party