Mentors...please!

The only mentors I'll have faith are The Balance Discord Mentors, other than that it's a hit and miss between a troll u find or genuine help lol.

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Originally Posted by Crescence

So far the Hall of Novice is too useless to even exist.

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I'm on Elemental with alts across several servers (though only a few are in NN), and generally it just doesn't have conversation at all. Typhoon is silent, Aegis is chatty but 99% Japanese so I have no idea what they're discussing. Tonberry is the only other world I've seen conversation while visiting.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I'm on Elemental with alts across several servers (though only a few are in NN), and generally it just doesn't have conversation at all. Typhoon is silent, Aegis is chatty but 99% Japanese so I have no idea what they're discussing. Tonberry is the only other world I've seen conversation while visiting.

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Atomos is pretty chatty, from time to time beginners ask for ppl to come with them to certain contents and most of the time ppl would join. Problem is, the people who are actively helping beginners in the chat are actually not people doing the mentor roulette. On the other hand, ppl who go to roulette usually go for the sake of achievement and don't really like join for the sake of helping others.

Then again, helping ppl clear contents doesn't really mean they're helping ppl in becoming good. And when you're not good, you're prone to getting into trouble. That's just how MMO works.

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Originally Posted by RajNish

Unfortunately, they exist, and I have repeatedly met them. I will pray to the God of randomness, so as not to meet them again. And, as I already said, their gear (obtained in raids and extreme trials) gives a fairly clear idea.

Do not get me wrong. I was a raider in another game, and I really know how it works. There are type of people, in any game, who take every opportunity to assert themselves. Be it a pixel weapon or the same pixel crown next to the character’s name.

What I'm trying to say is that the mentoring system does not work. At the moment, it is very toxic and needs more thoughtful processing than just increasing the number of recommendations. Really good people remain unnoticed, because selfish guys with a crown are the majority. Unfortunately, now mentoring system is another tool to show the prestige. There is nothing, or very little, from actual support and help.

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Sometimes I see sprouts saying that they got scolded in dungeons, meeting 'dementors', leavers, etc. Most mentors in NN would tell them "weird ppl, just ignore them." ...which is half-true.
Personally I almost never see ppl getting angry over small stuff, especially in mentor roulette. If you meet these "weird ppl" that often, then there's also chance that you're just that bad that ppl can't help getting angry at you. And no please don't misunderstand, I'm not trying to be a****** or anything, but it's definitely my personal experience. Some ppl are just THAT bad. I don't know how it is in your case, but if you meet such people THAT often, you might need to revisit the Hall of Novice for your own sake, too.

That is something to consider: Mentors can 'help' and give 'advice'... but they are not there to 'carry' or 'literally teach you how to play' past a particular point. At what point does there need to be some personal accountability here, y'all? Maybe you ran into a person having a poor day. Or, if it's a repeat offender... they shouldn't be in the system. Remove them. However, it behooves new players to also take it upon themselves to use all necessary options to learn and not just expect others to hold their hands because 'well they are mentors they have to do it or they should be punished or the system removed'. Use the Halls of Novice. Watch videos on a fight to learn it, join practice groups for things, DON'T USE SKIPS if you're literally new to the game... all kinds of reasons why vet players might be grumpy... there's always two sides to the 'grumpy' coin here.

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Originally Posted by Crescence

Personally I almost never see ppl getting angry over small stuff, especially in mentor roulette. If you meet these "weird ppl" that often, then there's also chance that you're just that bad that ppl can't help getting angry at you. And no please don't misunderstand, I'm not trying to be a****** or anything, but it's definitely my personal experience. Some ppl are just THAT bad. I don't know how it is in your case, but if you meet such people THAT often, you might need to revisit the Hall of Novice for your own sake, too.

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As someone who plays with Raj constantly, I can assure you, he don't need to do that.

Most of the "weird mentors" I've met gets angry about pretty everything, and most of the time it's not even EX trials. They mostly treat you like you're one of Trust NPC, except you can do aoe damage. And most of all, it's "you're not goin fast enough" thing that makes them angry. I mean, yeah, okay, I can pool whole dungeon, no probs, but are they able to heal me through that? Nope. I can DCD my axe off, but you only have that many DCD. Or it's other way around, they expect you to heal with them using zero DCD. That stuff happens all the time I do roulettes without friends. All. The. Time. Do I have a need to revisit HoN to meet their expectations? No, I don't think so.
Experts, leveling, trials, raids, no matter what roulette it is, if there's a crown in the crowd, most likely someone will be talked off. Most of the time if there're a newbie, there'll be no tips for the fight even if someone asks for it. You'll get "don't die" if you're lucky. Yeah, thanks, great advice. It's not mentorship.
Noticed funny (if you can call it that) thing. People want to run through something faster, but refuse to give advice for new people. In most late and post-ARR dungeons it likely will get at least the newbies killed, in some cases party too. How's that for "faster clears"? Spendin 2-3 min to explain what to expect? No, they better spend it running from the start. Best example here is the World of Darkness. Why tell people to catch the meteors (or go catch it yourself) if you can complain about it killing you all instead, am I right? It's not mentorship either. And it happens constantly.

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Originally Posted by Tsalmaveth

That is something to consider: Mentors can 'help' and give 'advice'... but they are not there to 'carry' or 'literally teach you how to play' past a particular point.

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I agree. But least you can expect from mentor is being a decent human being and not gettin flamed when you literally did nothing wrong but haven't played the way they wanted you to.

So yeah. System stinks. It needs rework at best. I'd be glad for it to go. NN can be easely replased with other world chat, so if someone needs advice, they can ask for it here for anyone to see. At least some good soul will answer.

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Originally Posted by Hatfright

That stuff happens all the time I do roulettes without friends. All. The. Time.

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Again: I barely experience that on Chaos DF and I run it alone regularly. Ofc you have bad apples and some ppl are moving out their way and are rude, but it's by far not 'all the time'. Like, idk, I agree that the mentor system is just plain bad, but ppl wearing a crown are also not the root of all evil lmao.
I'd still argue that most of them are indifferent/silent or they at least try. It's just that bad experiences last way longer in ppls memory than good ones.
And on the other side you see a lot of entitled sprouts as well, mind you. People that expect you to explain every single mechanic and pull of a dungeon and ofc rotations of all jobs on top. Just, idk dude if you wanted to be fully informed beforehand just read up a guide before entering the dungeon? They are just taking the easy road, leaning back and being like "well, mentors have to explain to me, so I don't have to do a thing and just wait for them to give the information to me". I can see why mentors might get salty when meeting these.


One thing I would really like to see is a more broken down like 'rank' system for Mentors. RN we have PvE/Crafter/Gatherer/PvP Mentors, but I think it would be way more helpful to differentiate it further. Have combat mentors (maybe even class mentors), story mentors, gameworld mentors, encounter mentors(or rather dungeon mentors, trial mentors (for EX trials), raid mentors (for savages/ultimates)) and so on.
This would help the mentors to be only held accountable for their special field and also the sprouts, because they had a better idea who to ask for the kind of advice/help they're looking for.

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Originally Posted by Crescence

Atomos is pretty chatty, from time to time beginners ask for ppl to come with them to certain contents and most of the time ppl would join.

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Oh cool. I have an alt on Atomos (U'zolwe Tia if you see him around) so I'll have to get someone to invite me in.

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Originally Posted by Rairai

So I want to put this out there and it has been mentioned before, but mentors need another re-work. Just because a person gets commendations does not mean you are suitable to be a mentor. I cannot tell you how many countless times I have joined a roulette or party and I see the mentors go. "You should just go in unsynched." or they just leave. There should be a counter for how many times they just up and abandon a duty that way if they do it many times their mentor roulette becomes suspended. There should also be a report mentor function that needs to be reviewed so that if someone is abusive to other players as a mentor it should be taken away.

As someone who enjoys teaching people how to do a fight and learning as we go, it is horrible to see someone join in and say "Just do it unsynched." What great mentor advice! This is a major issue for a healthy community and the future growth of this game. Mentor status should be an honor and a chance to show your skills to help others achieve a great goal! So please FFXIV reword the mentor status again and make it to where being a mentor isn't just something to get a roulette and rewards. Make it for people who want to help.

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I'm all for a system that allows you to report misbehavior from a mentor. As myself being one, I do try to help beginner players as much as I can but I mostly will let people experience it first hand then if I need to say something that either means death of the party or wipe, I'll give advice. Don't let those people try to ruin your experience for helping others. A shiny crown doesn't hide a bad attitude.

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Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves

One thing I would really like to see is a more broken down like 'rank' system for Mentors. RN we have PvE/Crafter/Gatherer/PvP Mentors, but I think it would be way more helpful to differentiate it further. Have combat mentors (maybe even class mentors), story mentors, gameworld mentors, encounter mentors(or rather dungeon mentors, trial mentors (for EX trials), raid mentors (for savages/ultimates)) and so on.
This would help the mentors to be only held accountable for their special field and also the sprouts, because they had a better idea who to ask for the kind of advice/help they're looking for.

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That might help. Just cuz I leveled all battle classes to max doesn't mean I know how to play them well.

As for personal experienses... I'm not sayin someone is the root of all evil, there's deffo spoils in every bunch. I'm probably just that lucky to run more into crowned people with no basic manners or understanding there's people with you. People, who might not be able to pull wall to wall or react as quick due tons of reasons (from server lag and internet connection issues to evething else), and there's no need to bully them for it. Yes, there is players who understand that. But I didn't met them that much to balance the whole situation for me.

It might as well be timezone issue. I noticed "bad stuff" happening less when I run roulettes right after it's cooldown time. But more time after cd, more chanses to get angry people. And, well, by the time I usually do roulletes, most of the players probably already finished it.

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Originally Posted by Hatfright

That might help. Just cuz I leveled all battle classes to max doesn't mean I know how to play them well.

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You know more than you think you do. Some of the most important things you learn leveling up all the jobs is how they interact with each other.

You've felt the pain as a healer of a tank who doesn't use a single defensive CD.

You've seen pulls take way too long because DPS refuse to use any aoe whatsoever.

You've seen healers who think their only job is to heal and not mitigate damage by helping kill mobs.

All of this knowledge you can pass on to other players.

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Originally Posted by Rairai

I don't give up on things that could be helpful to everyone. Thanks for the reply!

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I stopped doing mentor EX fights because of the many I got, only 1 did a clear. Every single other one is just a wipe fest for 30mins before people vote to abandon it. Mentor EX fights are a waste of peoples times. If someone new wants to do one of them synced then they should get some friends and start a party finder group. It even takes me static a good hour or more to learn the new EX fights for the first time and we're all in discord and have been working together for several years. Good luck with all pugs that are likely poor geared and aren't using voice chat.

SO yes I'm one of those that bail from EX mentor groups. I tried them and gave up. They should be removed from mentor roulettes. I'm more than willing to help teach any other content.

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Originally Posted by Crescence

If you meet these "weird ppl" that often, then there's also chance that you're just that bad that ppl can't help getting angry at you. And no please don't misunderstand, I'm not trying to be a****** or anything, but it's definitely my personal experience. Some ppl are just THAT bad. I don't know how it is in your case, but if you meet such people THAT often, you might need to revisit the Hall of Novice for your own sake, too.

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You said what you said. No worries and many thanks for your care. But, again, this is not about me and my skills. I'm talking about a system which works so bad.

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Originally Posted by Tsalmaveth

That is something to consider: Mentors can 'help' and give 'advice'... but they are not there to 'carry' or 'literally teach you how to play' past a particular point.

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Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves

They are just taking the easy road, leaning back and being like "well, mentors have to explain to me, so I don't have to do a thing and just wait for them to give the information to me".

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Honestly, it would be nice to give an advice at least, instead of "Pads you dumbos!" or "Use your brain!" to first timers. Otherwise, why this status then? I hope these people at least stop being rude. Is it so much or impossible?

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Originally Posted by RajNish

Honestly, it would be nice to give an advice at least, instead of "Pads you dumbos!" or "Use your brain!" to first timers. Otherwise, why this status then? I hope these people at least stop being rude. Is it so much or impossible?

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I only came across one mentor that sounded like that since the system started, to be honest.

That being said, what Tsalmaveth said it absolutely right ; the game teaches you how to play. The basic commands are there. Read the tool tips and learn with what the game gives you. Mentors are there to help you, answer questions and give advices, not teach you the entre game one step at a time.

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Originally Posted by DarkMasamune

I only came across one mentor that sounded like that since the system started, to be honest.

That being said, what Tsalmaveth said it absolutely right ; the game teaches you how to play. The basic commands are there. Read the tool tips and learn with what the game gives you. Mentors are there to help you, answer questions and give advices, not teach you the entre game one step at a time.

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Sorry, but once again. I'm not talking about training. I am talking about the mentors unacceptable behavior. Or do you think that saying that the raid is failed because half of alliance was French is normal for a mentor? This is an example of what I heard from mentors.

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Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves

One thing I would really like to see is a more broken down like 'rank' system for Mentors. RN we have PvE/Crafter/Gatherer/PvP Mentors, but I think it would be way more helpful to differentiate it further. Have combat mentors (maybe even class mentors), story mentors, gameworld mentors, encounter mentors(or rather dungeon mentors, trial mentors (for EX trials), raid mentors (for savages/ultimates)) and so on.
This would help the mentors to be only held accountable for their special field and also the sprouts, because they had a better idea who to ask for the kind of advice/help they're looking for.

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Would this change things significantly though? Most mentors that I've seen will already defer to someone else when they don't know the answer to a particular question. The topics you've mentioned also aren't all that involved for the most part. The only thing that I feel might really be beneficial is rating mentor combat proficiency (ie can this mentor clear Savage), but even then it won't make a difference most of the time and sprouts might not even know enough to differentiate.

The system is better than people give credit for. Like you said many will remember the bad and ignore the good. If something needs to change, I'd say it's the mentor roulette. Replace it with something built around providing help to players who need it instead of just making it a queue filler.

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Originally Posted by RajNish

Sorry, but once again. I'm not talking about training. I am talking about the mentors unacceptable behavior. Or do you think that saying that the raid is failed because half of alliance was French is normal for a mentor? This is an example of what I heard from mentors.

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I got that many times, mentors or not. You gotta know that mentors are still people and sadly, some of them are a-holes. Just report them, there's not much more to be done.

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Originally Posted by DarkMasamune

I got that many times, mentors or not. You gotta know that mentors are still people and sadly, some of them are a-holes. Just report them, there's not much more to be done.

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I'm not sure there is nothing more to be done. Reporting will not change the situation, it is necessary to change or even delete the mentor's system. If the system allows abuse, justified by the mentor's status. As long as everyone is sitting and just looking at it, the mess will continue.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

You know more than you think you do. Some of the most important things you learn leveling up all the jobs is how they interact with each other.

You've felt the pain as a healer of a tank who doesn't use a single defensive CD.

You've seen pulls take way too long because DPS refuse to use any aoe whatsoever.

You've seen healers who think their only job is to heal and not mitigate damage by helping kill mobs.

All of this knowledge you can pass on to other players.

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While this is true, not so many people actually use that knowledge themselves, what to say about passing it to new players. Not once or twice I saw someone leveling one last tank or healer, who didn't knew basics of the roles. I mean, how can you level 3 tanks and not know they generate more agro when in "stance". And yet, there is people like that. Not telling it's mentors, but still.

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Originally Posted by PyurBlue

The only thing that I feel might really be beneficial is rating mentor combat proficiency (ie can this mentor clear Savage)

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I disagree. You can be hepful without working your axe off in savages. Some people just don't want to do that part of content for whatever reason, and thats totally fine imo.

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Originally Posted by Sesera

Until they get rid of that terrible mentor roulette they will never fix the problem.
The idea of rewarding mentors for their efforts seems great at first but in the end what happens, what always happen, is you are forcing people to be mentors when they aren't suited for that to get their shiny mount.

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This. People becoming mentors just for the sake of it and for mount is the worst.

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Originally Posted by DarkMasamune

I got that many times, mentors or not. You gotta know that mentors are still people and sadly, some of them are a-holes. Just report them, there's not much more to be done.

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The thing is, most of the times reports don't do anything. You get the advise to BL them, but that ain't preventing you from meeting them in roulettes again, AFAIK. You just can't see what they're typing in chat, if at all. That's it. Attitude is still there.

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Originally Posted by RajNish

Sorry, but once again. I'm not talking about training. I am talking about the mentors unacceptable behavior.

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DarkMasamune addressed this topic as well. One rude mentor. In six years of the Mentor system.

Rude and unpleasant mentors seriously aren't that common. Do they exist? Sure. I challenge you to come up with a Mentor selection system capable of keeping unpleasant people out. (Such a system would be SO useful in real life, too!) Bear in mind, you'd also need to fine-tune the system so it also keeps out Mentors who are usually nice, but might sometimes have a bad day. Your selection system must accept ONLY Mentors who are sunny and pleasant ALL THE TIME - otherwise the mentor system is TOXIC!!! (Or so one might gather by reading the various "A Mentor Ate Mah Baby!" threads that pop up here from time to time.) Regardless, mentors who are outright unpleasant people are pretty rare. Like all bad things, though, they tend to stick in one's mind a lot more than the good or average things do.

If you expand the definition of "unacceptable" to also include mentors who are simply unhelpful - well, that pool is much larger, I'll admit. And sometimes, being unhelpful is justified, if the group clearly does not need help. I've heard people complain about Mentors who remain silent throughout an entire dungeon run - but when asked if the run ran into any problems that needed mentoring, they admit that no, everything went smoothly.

This thread was about Expert Trials, though, and the mentors that abandon them. I agree that this is bad behavior - but I also think that the mentors who suggest the runs be done unsynced are giving good advice. Even if you're a player who wishes to be challenged by the old content (at least, as much as you actually can be, given the stacking Echo and overgearing), duty finder is a terrible way to get that buzz. For one thing, it takes forever to fill a party, even with mentor roulette helping out. Then you run into the OP's problem, of mentors who drop out without even trying, which will delay things even longer until enough tolerant mentors fill in to give the run a try.

It's MUCH better to use Party Finder, whether you plan on running the content synced or not, and if a Mentor gives this advice, they are doing good mentoring. Using party finder, you can find like-minded folks who are actually interested in doing the content in the way you wish to do it - and, more importantly, can do the run with you multiple times. Depending on the trial, it's often difficult to win an Extreme trial in a single one-hour session. You need several sessions of progress, and using Duty Finder, you're likely to end up with a whole new team each time you run it, many of whom may be unfamiliar with the fight to the point you're starting from scratch each and every time.

Even when these trials were relevant content in their prime, folks did not use Duty Finder to run them. Folks that use Duty Finder now, do so because they do not know any better. A mentor that educates them on their mistake is doing good work.

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Originally Posted by Hatfright

The thing is, most of the times reports don't do anything. You get the advise to BL them, but that ain't preventing you from meeting them in roulettes again, AFAIK. You just can't see what they're typing in chat, if at all. That's it. Attitude is still there.

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Yeah, I'm aware of that. The BL thing really isn't working as it should and reports aren't doing much. That's why I said there isn't much else to be done. People can be toxic, mentors or not, and building a system where no mentors would be toxic would be great, but I can't really see how this could be done (even thought it would be great, yeah).

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Originally Posted by DarkMasamune

Yeah, I'm aware of that. The BL thing really isn't working as it should and reports aren't doing much. That's why I said there isn't much else to be done. People can be toxic, mentors or not, and building a system where no mentors would be toxic would be great, but I can't really see how this could be done (even thought it would be great, yeah).

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The BL system needs to be reworked. For example, in other games, if you add someone to the blacklist, you will no longer meet him in a random group. The base of FF 14 players is wide enough to form a random group with these parameters.

Moreover, I think that mentors should have their own reputation system, based not only on the number of recommendations. However, this implies that players must be proactive to report, not just silently leave, considering rudeness and insults as the norm.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

DarkMasamune addressed this topic as well. One rude mentor. In six years of the Mentor system.

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Thank you for your wit, it makes me smile. Let's first clarify who is a good mentor. And let's answer the question. Does bad mood, family problems, stressful work justify insulting people? If you think so, I see no reason to discuss further with you.

Before rushing into battle for a beautiful shiny mount, you had to read the terms of the contract. It's simple. Yes, in fact, you can get into the prog group with beginners. I know what prog group is, I was the leader of prog group in another game. But many people said about the player’s skills, if I’m not mistaken. If you have your skills, that's not a problem isn't it? Consequently, the reward goes to the worthy, and ... patient. Even if you’re tired and intend to leave, why not say: "Sorry, guys, I'm tired, let's call it." Such meek words for someone who knows the English alphabet enough to say "Hello!".

And finally. If this were a thread dedicated to people who really help, no matter what, I would write a laudatory ode to them. But here we talk about problems. And ofcourse, the passive aggression itself is a good and clear marker. :)

I think some people expect Mentors to act like in-game SE Community Managers or SE Moderators. Mentors are not paid employees. Mentors should not have some strict job constraints forced upon them because other people expect them to act with a certain moral decorum.

There are bad Mentors and good Mentors. They chose to enter Mentor Roulette. So did you. Mentors should expect bad players. Players should expect bad Mentors. It's a two-way street. It's the risk both of you take. You want to place more penalties on Mentors? Get ready to never see your waiting queue pop in Mentor Roulette because nobody will tag themselves as Mentor. There is already barely any reward with roulettes.

There are bad tanks and there are good tanks. Should we start placing extra penalty on bad tanks because they aren't playing the game the way WE think they should be playing?

I'm not a Mentor, but I would rather be locked out of my roulettes for 24 hours than deal with a group of entitled, undergeared people in an Extreme giving me attitude if I suggest we Vote Abandon. Some people hold entire groups hostage because they refuse to Vote Abandon. If SE DOES decide to place a 24 hour penalty on Mentors who leave, I will never flag as Mentor. Simple cause and effect.

Keep in mind: A lot of us have 300 other Steam games that won't lock us out of content for being a "meanie". Player retention will always take a hit the more constraints, regulations, and barriers a developer places on content. Mentor Roulette can easily become a ghost town.

Following this logic ... "I want to be a mentor, because for this SE will give me a beautiful mount and a crown. Since I don’t get paid for it, I don’t have to be polite and I won’t do what I don’t want".

Sounds great, doesn't it? One question. Why do we need mentors?

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Originally Posted by RajNish

Following this logic ... "I want to be a mentor, because for this SE will give me a beautiful mount and a crown. Since I don’t get paid for it, I don’t have to be polite and I won’t do what I don’t want".

Sounds great, doesn't it? One question. Why do we need mentors?

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You do know there are good mentors out there ? Of course there are bad apples, just like in every community, unfortunately, but there are more good ones than horrible ones. Not every player wearing the crown is a bad player that will diss the second they don't like the duty they get in and/or the people they are working with.

And to be quite honest, I ended more on 'bad' new players than terrible mentors. Getting told to f- off because I just wanted to give a few gameplay advices is always nice.

Edit : Also, the basic of the system is to fill duties where there aren't much players going in anymore. So whenever a new player tries to tag Sastasha for exemple and no one will get in there, a mentor will get tagged in. That's the 'basic' of it, I guess.

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Originally Posted by DarkMasamune

You do know there are good mentors out there ? Of course there are bad apples, just like in every community, unfortunately, but there are more good ones than horrible ones. Not every player wearing the crown is a bad player that will diss the second they don't like the duty they get in and/or the people they are working with.

And to be quite honest, I ended more on 'bad' new players than terrible mentors. Getting told to f- off because I just wanted to give a few gameplay advices is always nice.

Edit : Also, the basic of the system is to fill duties where there aren't much players going in anymore. So whenever a new player tries to tag Sastasha for exemple and no one will get in there, a mentor will get tagged in. That's the 'basic' of it, I guess.

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Of course I know. But, as I said above, we are not talking about them. We are talking about a specific problem. I want to know answer to the question, why these bad ones continue to be mentors and how the system can be adjusted.

By the way, Consolegames Wiki article quote:

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What is a Mentor
Mentors are veteran players who chose to offer their time and experience to help guide new adventurers. To facilitate their assistance, mentors will gain access to a special chat channel as well as a means to easily register for duties and trials with new players.
As a mentor you are expected to actively perform the following:
1. Provide gameplay advice for new adventurers and other players.
2. Be an exemplar for player etiquette.
3. Invite new adventurers to the Novice Network and answer their queries in the chat channel.

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Exhaustively, isn't it?

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Originally Posted by RajNish

Following this logic ... "I want to be a mentor, because for this SE will give me a beautiful mount and a crown. Since I don’t get paid for it, I don’t have to be polite and I won’t do what I don’t want".

Sounds great, doesn't it? One question. Why do we need mentors?

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yeah, square just gives you the mount lol, very few people have the determination to go through that grind.

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Originally Posted by RyuSaarva

yeah, square just gives you the mount lol, very few people have the determination to go through that grind.

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Grind indeed. In which there mostly nothing from "offer their time and experience to help guide new adventurers" or "an exemplar for player etiquette".

I know that there are players who really try to help beginners, and I agree that such efforts should be rewarded. But the system is totally broken.

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Originally Posted by RajNish

Of course I know. But, as I said above, we are not talking about them. We are talking about a specific problem. I want to know answer to the question, why these bad ones continue to be mentors and how the system can be adjusted?

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How exactly can you adjust the system? The bad mentors became mentors solely for the crown and mount. Remove the crown and then it just boils down to a person being rude vs a mentor being rude, which is still the same problem. Remove the mount and you just punish the good mentors that are actually helping people by denying them a reward for their time and doing content solely out of the goodness of your heart works SO well, just ask anyone that played BLU a week after its debut. Even abolishing the entire system all together would do more harm than good as now duties that are waiting to refill just lost out on an entire roulette of people to help them, not to mention new players that don't have anyone that is able to help them when they misguidedly join a DF for Ex primals and such.

The fact of the matter is that, there is literally NOTHING that can be done to solve this. Its simply a "dealing with the good as well as the bad" type of situation and people just need to accept it as such.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

The fact of the matter is that, there is literally NOTHING that can be done to solve this. Its simply a "dealing with the good as well as the bad" type of situation and people just need to accept it as such.

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Sure there's something that can be done. Change the commendation system.

Instead of telling players to give a commendation to someone who left a good impression on you (which can mean any number of things), tell players to give a commendation to a player they think is worthy of being a mentor. Remove the commendation entry from the challenge log so players aren't randomly giving out commendations just to clear the entry for the week.

Reset commendation counts every major patch and set a new number as the target to reach during the patch cycle to obtain/retain mentor status the following patch (obviously the number would be much smaller than the 1500 it currently is).

Change the icon for mentors to something other than a crown. A simple rectangle (think chalkboard) displaying a sword for PvE mentors, hammer for trade mentors or both crossed for a mentor who is both would work.

There are things that can be done.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Sure there's something that can be done. Change the commendation system.

Instead of telling players to give a commendation to someone who left a good impression on you (which can mean any number of things), tell players to give a commendation to a player they think is worthy of being a mentor.

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We don't do that in real life, and there's a good reason for that. Students don't get to chose their mentors/teachers because they lack the knowledge to understand whether or not a person is suitable for the role. Even at university, students can at best evaluate a course towards its conclusion, and the evaluation typically has little to do with the content of the course and more to do with how it was carried out, but that happens only at the end, after several months, not after a 20 minutes lecture.

Mentors should have credentials that prove they have a solid knowledge about what they are supposed to teach. SE believes that commendations and play time (=jobs at max level) is enough. They're probably wrong, but it is what it is.

Thankfully, we already have a good mentor system and that's the balance discord, where mentors achieved that status because they're generally considered good players. Just redirect the sprouts there.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

How exactly can you adjust the system?

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Sure there's something that can be done. Change the commendation system. Change the icon for mentors to something other than a crown.

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This.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

Students don't get to chose their mentors/teachers because they lack the knowledge to understand whether or not a person is suitable for the role.

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Your comparison is incorrect. First of all, because mentors are not teachers, and beginners are not students. But speaking your language, a teacher can lose his job very quickly if he offends his students, calling them idiots etc.

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Originally Posted by RajNish

This.



Your comparison is incorrect. First of all, because mentors are not teachers, and beginners are not students. But speaking your language, a teacher can lose his job very quickly if he offends his students, calling them idiots etc.

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That's not the point. The point is people with no clue about the game (including many max level players that clearly didn't even spend a few minutes reading their skills' tooltips) should not be allowed to decide whether someone is qualified to be a mentor or not. Incidentally, this is one of the reasons why the current system is flawed: commendations are not a good measure of players' skill and knowledge. Courtesy can be one of several factors to take into account, but you can't decide that someone is suitable to be a mentor just because they're being nice.

Ideally, there should be a system that allows players to show how knowledgeable they are and if they meet a certain skill requirement (set by SE), then let them be mentors. Remove any kind of reward from the mentor system to make sure people aren't mentoring just for the reward, or let the reward be based on something different from the number of duties you run and linked to the quality of your mentoring. The current system however is built so that you can be a mentor regardless of your skill, your knowledge and your willingness to help and to make it worse it rewards mentors depending of the number of completed duties, where duties with very different difficulty are worth the same. It's wrong in any possible way, from the mentors' selection phase to the incentive structure, but replacing it with another equally bad system where mentors would just be chatty guys that get commendations by being all nice during random casual duties is not the way to go.

I was a mentor early on helping when I could but because of the stigma of them going around plus other stuff going on I dropped being one.

This stupid complain about mentors its just ridiculus. For some reason people think that mentors should have 100% knowledge of every encounter, job ,side quest ,end game content and be a godamn 100 percentile parser.

Maybe just maybe you guys are being completely unreasonable . just maybe did that thought passed from your head?

Mentors arent there to explain everything from memory . At most they just go ahead and google stuff that they dont know. What a mentor needs is basic knowledge on how to heal, tank and dps, to know how to play his main job and lastly patience and kindness . They are there for sprouts which means from level 1 up to the start of the new expansion, at most the skillcap of the mentors should be up to ex trial difficulty.

This is why Novice network also sucks people for some reason expect when nobody asks for help for everyone to not be talking with each other or the best thing ive ever heard which is alot like this "we got enough mentors i dont mind kicking peeps for talking"
The thing you people have confused is that Mentors are not fcking esport gods they are normal players with a stupid icon next to them if a player is helpfull he doesnt need the crown to be helpfull if a player is an ass the mentor icon didnt make him an ass.

Also if anything there is more ill call it "cheekiness" from non mentors to mentors. When a lvl 70> player doesnt move fast enough in aurum vale and dies by pulling stuff while were already on the entrance to the first boss, when i ask what happened im not expecting to be answered with youre a mentor you should know. Or how about those people who play bad that blame the mentor afterwards . or how about when you explain a strat and put marks and then a new player takes the marks and puts them to draw shit while he goes and says his own "strat" and we keep wiping cause nobody wants to listen. If anything mentor icon is more of a detriment

I know nobody will listen to this but whatever i said what i had to say

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

There are things that can be done.

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What exactly would this accomplish other than limiting the number of mentors available to people with the time to grind out comms time and time again? After running the same content, week in and week out, people are just prone to exiting duties without receiving or giving out comms without so much as a "GG" nowadays that I really don't see this as a solution but rather just adding a grind to an already grindy system. How can you gauge a person that you interact with for ~20 minutes and determine, "This person is mentor material", especially when a run goes smoothly and there's nothing to discuss? 90% of the time, if comms are given at all, its usually defaulted to Tank/Healer unless someone did something absolutely amazing or the Tank/Healer were awful. Now, you want to add some arbitrary grind to mentor status to make it so that you have to constantly go out of your way to not only be an excellent player but also do something that people actually want to recommend you for mentorship every few months? That's not a solution, like at all.

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Originally Posted by Sesera

People don't care about a random idiot being rude however they care when said idiot is supposed to be helpful and kind because of his mentor status. For example, if Yoshida says bad things about ff14 players and I say the same things it's not just the same problem.
There is a reason why this thread is about mentors and not about toxic players.

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And yet how often do mentors get berated with the same tired excuse of "You don't pay my sub". I mean, providing advice and people totally blowing you off gets frustrating after awhile that you eventually become a bitter person. People have bad days and sometimes they snap. In relation to Yoshida, even if he said that FF14 players were morons, I wouldn't give 2 Fs about it because it doesn't affect me nor my enjoyment of the game. He starts screw with the game to an extent I no longer enjoy the game, then I just move on to another game. You get a meh mentor, you blacklist and move on. Takes more than a few negative words thrown my way to be bothered to such an extent that I feel the need to make a forum post about it.

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Originally Posted by HeulGDarian

Mentors arent there to explain everything from memory . At most they just go ahead and google stuff that they dont know. What a mentor needs is basic knowledge on how to heal, tank and dps, to know how to play his main job and lastly patience and kindness .

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Anyone at level 80 knows the basics of their job. Anyone can understand the basics of a role by reading a few lines of text. Is knowing that a tank should keep aggro enough to be a mentor? Or telling a sprout dps that he's supposed to use aoe skills during a big pull? I think not. You can do that without the crown, and any vaguely decent player will understand that by looking at their tooltips before getting to level 30.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

Anyone at level 80 knows the basics of their job. Anyone can understand the basics of a role by reading a few lines of text. Is knowing that a tank should keep aggro enough to be a mentor? Or telling a sprout dps that he's supposed to use aoe skills during a big pull? I think not. You can do that without the crown, and any vaguely decent player will understand that by looking at their tooltips before getting to level 30.

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no, they don't know the basics at level 80 lol and even if they do, they don't always wan't to help anyone and thats why we have mentors.

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Originally Posted by HeulGDarian

I know nobody will listen to this but whatever i said what i had to say

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Probably because there are too many accusations and not a single constructive proposal.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

People have bad days and sometimes they snap.

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Sorry, but I come to the game to play, and not to listen mentor's swearing only because someone had a bad day. Bad days can be 365 days in a year and are not an excuse for bad behavior. This applies to any player, by the way.

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Originally Posted by RajNish

Probably because there are too many accusations and not a single constructive proposal.



Sorry, but I come to the game to play, and not to listen mentor's swearing only because someone had a bad day. Bad days can be 365 days in a year and are not an excuse for bad behavior. This applies to any player, by the way.

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The vote kick button is great for those toxic players but since you want constructive criticism, here's a thought.

In addition to the Commendation System, add a Demerit system. At the end of each run, you can either commend someone or demerit them. If a Mentor acquires a certain number of demerits within a specific time frame, their Mentorship status is temporarily revoked for a week (spitballing here, SE can make it however long they wish). After the week is complete, the Demerits are removed from their Commendations and they reacquire Mentor status again. If a Mentor continues this trend, they will, eventually, lose enough commendations to be illegible for Mentorship status and will have to reacquire it the same as anyone wanting to be a mentor.

Is it perfect? No. A mentor can merely leave the instance before anyone can vote and won't prevent premature departures as a result of someone not wanting to spend time in Ex primals or MSQ scenarios, not to mention Trolls can demerit you merely for their own enjoyment but at least there's something to dissuade Toxic Behaviors.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

The vote kick button is great for those toxic players but since you want constructive criticism, here's a thought.

In addition to the Commendation System, add a Demerit system. At the end of each run, you can either commend someone or demerit them. If a Mentor acquires a certain number of demerits within a specific time frame, their Mentorship status is temporarily revoked for a week (spitballing here, SE can make it however long they wish). After the week is complete, the Demerits are removed from their Commendations and they reacquire Mentor status again. If a Mentor continues this trend, they will, eventually, lose enough commendations to be illegible for Mentorship status and will have to reacquire it the same as anyone wanting to be a mentor.

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No. The community has shown countless times that it cannot police itself. A system that allows players to punish others is ripe for abuse. Some would demerit a player who dared criticise them even if said criticism was deserved and nicely said. There are people out there who would demerit simply because they think it's funny.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Trolls can demerit you merely for their own enjoyment but at least there's something to dissuade Toxic Behaviors.

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No the demerit system literally hands the players another way to be toxic.

Your idea is nice on paper but it will never work because frankly people suck.

The best way to filter out "bad" mentors is to make it far more difficult and time consuming to become a mentor. Too many have the crown because they want a mount and have no interest in being helpful. A lot of those people wouldn't bother if they thought it took too long and/or was too much effort to even become a mentor.

Again I suggest a more advanced version of the Novice Hall that mentors would need to pass as part of the requirements. I personally know some mentors who would actually struggle with the following:

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Originally Posted by Penthea

There should also be an advanced form of the Novice Hall that you must pass in order to become a mentor. It would need to be a place where you get synced to specific stats that guarantee that the combat would present some degree of challenge. It would test more advanced mechanics every mentor should know: stack markers, proximity aoe markers, bosses with animations for attacks but no telegraphs, using line of sight to avoid attacks, how to use all the role actions, and so on.

That wouldn't be too difficult to introduce considering it would be using game mechanics that already exist and it's expanding on an already existing feature.

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