Is 'Hydaelyn' a misnomer based on a misconception?

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Originally Posted by Theodric

As for the Xaela, I was rather disappointed to see that the Scions held their proud traditions in such contempt. They were manipulated not only to get them to join the war effort but also in order to gain access to the Allagan device located within the Steppes. I consider the former situation to be much worse than the latter, though.

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Honestly, it didnt take a lot of manipulation to get the people of the steppes to fight. If any manipulation was used at all. They all are a Proud Warrior Race, and even then the Mol are too just weaker than the rest of the tribes. If we, (the WoL) have been manipulating them, the we would have had to do a a lot more than just win their Nadaam. They themselves have pretty much shown that most of them are willing to fight at the drop of a hat. (*looks at both Magnai and Sadu as the main culprits*) Also while yes we did do it (it meaning that we won and became the Khagan) we leave the general ruling to the actual Mol Clan. (Which was all part of Hien's plan to help them out due to Cirina saving his life.) Also we didnt manipulate them to use that Allagan device either, we had to go and ask the main clans for permission to use it... that turned into a rematch between us and Sadu with Magnai interrupting us and then getting the greatest burn in all of history from Y'shtola.

Ohh yeah also one thing else we didnt tell the Mol to fight in the Nadaam either... Old lady Mol had a vision that they were to fight in it that year.

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Originally Posted by Rannie

Honestly, it didnt take a lot of manipulation to get the people of the steppes to fight. If any manipulation was used at all. They all are a Proud Warrior Race, and even then the Mol are too just weaker than the rest of the tribes. If we, (the WoL) have been manipulating them, the we would have had to do a a lot more than just win their Nadaam. They themselves have pretty much shown that most of them are willing to fight at the drop of a hat. (*looks at both Magnai and Sadu as the main culprits*) Also while yes we did do it we leave the general ruling to the actual Mol Clan. (Which was all part of Hien's plan to help them out due to Cirina saving his life.) Also we didnt manipulate them to use that Allagan device either, we had to go and ask the main clans for permission to use it... that turned into a rematch between us and Sadu with Magnai interrupting us and then getting the greatest burn in all of history from Y'shtola.

Ohh yeah also one thing else we didnt tell the Mol to fight in the Nadaam either... Old lady Mol had a vision that they were to fight in it that year.

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True, but they didn't have a reason to fight the Garleans either (yet). If you twist it around a bit, we've basically found and utilized a legal loophole in their... electoral system? To get them involved in a war, they did not care about. Sure, they are conveniently a warlike race, and they didn't much care about how we've used the fine print of the Nadaam to insert oureslves in the decision making process, but the base morals are still somewhat questionable behind... Hiens plan? I think it was Hiens plan. Who only has to gain from such an outcome.

Somethimes I wonder if these small moral idiosyncracies left in the story are intentional for the underlying commentary of "we're not so different from the villains", or just brushed aside by the writers as justified since it was us, and it turned out fine.

It was Hiens plan not ours his plan was to place the Mol in charge due to them saving his life. He was going to do it weither his people rose up in defiance of Garlemald or not. He was the one who decided that he would ask them to join the cause after he found out that the domans were ready to rise in resistance.

Few things about the Xeala tribes, apart from Cerina of the Mol, the Orionir, the Dotharl and the men only tribe (name escapes me sorry) did we see any other tribe participate in the reclamation of Doma?

If not couldn't that mean all tribes had a choice whether to actually join or not since it wasn't their fight. I mean this was the Mol's 1st Nardeem in recent times which suggests Nardeem participation is not mandatory.

The mol were going to do the Nardeem this year because the gods willed them to through granny Mol, Hein was going to offer his head had the citizens fully given up and that was due to Yugiri not us that sparked that.

It was Hein who asked the Xeala to go to war and we just gave a single sentence to attack Gywnwalt who had just attacked the steppes trying to kill us.

We had a bigger influence over the Confederacy than the Xeala and even that was Alisae's bargin not our own.

The scions and the alliance use us more for influence than Hydelyn does and only 3 of them had echo that we interacted with and did things for in the story. Any other time we were used by people it was man's own desire to do so. If Hydelyn is moving things however indirectly then she would be classed as a neglectful mother at best. Hydelyn has been proven to be nothing like the Ocuria and even they let things stew for awhile (time difference between dynast-king and ashe story).

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Originally Posted by Rannie

It was Hiens plan not ours his plan was to place the Mol in charge due to them saving his life. He was going to do it weither his people rose up in defiance of Garlemald or not. He was the one who decided that he would ask them to join the cause after he found out that the domans were ready to rise in resistance.

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My memory is rather foggy, but as I recall:

-the Mol had no intention, nor capability to participate in the Nadaam (before we came)
-we we're very clear from the start about our intentions to draw them into the war, even before the Nadam

If so, breaking it down without context: we've helped a faction of a foreign alliance of tribes into power, that had no intention, nor capability to take power on its own. Won the Nadaam single handedly for them, and then made a singular request of them - that they knew before comming into power - which they then chose to honor. But it is fine, because we're good guys, and had personal motivation to help them anyways.

Tell me it doesn't sound fishy, when putting it that way.

Anyways, I do not doubt the intention behind the ark, just the intentionallity of the writing. This doubt could've been easily circumvented, if the Xaela openly challenged us to take part in the Nadaam (with proper tribe representation) to force our agenda if we wanted to. From then on it could've played out basically as it did.

We went out to seek Hien to inform him of his people's willingness to rise up against the Empire. Hien planned to use the Xaela (again not us) to help him fight to reclaim Doma (again still on the contingency on if his people wanted to rise up against their imperial masters or not because he didnt want anymore deaths of his people) as well as repay his debt to the Mol for saving his life. We only decided to aid him in the endeavor. Btw this is all also on the EE volume 2 as well as the cutscenes leading up to and after the Nadaam.

Edit: I say planned to use them but the exact terminology used is to bid them to help. Now given the definition of bidding someone to do something he was trying to gain their help not force it.

Edit 2: and honestly for me (and in my own opinion) I got the feeling that while the warrior of light didnt mind fighting he/she was more thinking along the lines of "really I have to deal with this shit too?!?!?! Cant we just drag Hien by the top knot to the house of the fierce and get this shit over with?!?!?"

Also without context: An intelligent, charismatic leader gathered a band of refugee's and through tenacity, courage, and pure technological know-how found a nation in one of the most inhospitable climes. They then brought this technology to other parts of the realm. Doesn't that just sound so damn heroic you want to cry? But because they're the "bad guys" it's a bad thing.

That's how no context concepts work, anything can be twisted to ones own ends without context. You have a bias against Hydaelyn's actions, therefore you are going to cast any action taken by anyone associated with her to be somehow twisted into villainy.

I agree, the distinction is important, and I forgot we we're talking about the WoL, not "team good guys in general". I guess I flew way off topic with the "its fine if the good guys do it" rant.

Apologies!

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Originally Posted by Deusteele

Also without context: An intelligent, charismatic leader gathered a band of refugee's and through tenacity, courage, and pure technological know-how found a nation in one of the most inhospitable climes. They then brought this technology to other parts of the realm. Doesn't that just sound so damn heroic you want to cry? But because they're the "bad guys" it's a bad thing.

That's how no context concepts work, anything can be twisted to ones own ends without context. You have a bias against Hydaelyn's actions, therefore you are going to cast any action taken by anyone associated with her to be somehow twisted into villainy.

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It does, but it conveniently leaves out the part where the hero was the reason those people were suffering in the first place. Which isn't context, but direct causation.

And to clarify, I have no bias against Hydaelyn or her actions. I'm just untrusting and cynical towards everything in general, until factually proven otherwise (at which point I might just become plain bitter, but thats another question).

You're trying to state that you're a rationalist.
But after several points shown that people act freely and without guidance from Hydaelyn you're showing a consistent tilt toward putting actions of those associated with her in a bad light. That's called bias.

@Crushnight, there was only 2 tribes the Oronir and the Dotharl that traveled south with Hien to help with the Doman Liberation (well per the EE Volume 2).

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Originally Posted by Deusteele

You're trying to state that you're a rationalist.
But after several points shown that people act freely and without guidance from Hydaelyn you're showing a consistent tilt toward putting actions of those associated with her in a bad light. That's called bias.

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If you think so, I either worded my posts poorly, or you misunderstood something.

You say "bad light". I say writing mistake, hypocrisy, or genuinely great setup for a moral relativist commentary. The fact that I argue, that something done by the heroes is morally questionable in principle isn't meant as criticism of characters. It might be if they move away from the current narrative, and move back to a black and white morality. But, until we keep rolling with the moral relativism theme, its actually a praise from me, if anything!

The only thing I am biased against really, is the story returning to a more simplistic morality after all this setup.

EDIT: to further break it down, what I am doing, is speculating how a character such as Hydaelyn, that so far has been characterized universally good, can fit into a narrative in which we are pushing, that good and evil is in the details, and in the eye of the beholder.

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

This may be the other way around. She may be handing out power to people that she knows would follow her agenda. She may not manipulate the individual, but she is manipulating the history of millions by distribution of power. For better or worse, many would take issue with such things.

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The power Hydaelyn passes out seems to be completely passive and purely defensive, and ONLY defensive against unnatural elements like Primals and Ascians. Our strength is our own, and Hydaelyn's power only comes into play when entities try to "cheat" by way of Tempering and such. She doesn't always give it to folks who follow her agenda, either. We have two cases to the contrary to consider: Saint Ajora, who summoned Seraph Ultima to the world, and Ysayle, who assisted Nidhogg's horde by summoning a Primal, of all things. Hydaelyn is clearly not all-knowing; she bestows her powers on promising individuals, but there's no guarantee that those individuals will do what she hopes they will do.

She struck the jackpot with the Warrior of Light, of course - but even the WoL frequently runs off to do things that have little or nothing to do with her agenda. Thordan may have consorted with Ascians, but that's not the reason the WoL got involved in the Dragonsong War. The WoL got involved because people were suffering, and the WoL wanted to help out. The Dragonsong War was (to our current knowledge) not influenced by the Ascians, and Thordan's plotting and eventual Primal summoning had no effect on the war at all. It took place after we'd ALREADY WON. Nidhogg was dead, his horde was in disarray, and while Nidhogg eventually resurrected himself through Estinien, Hydaelyn did not ask us to do any of that.

The only way Hydaelyn could be said to be guiding the fate of humankind is that she allows a few champions to keep living when they would normally be tempered or dead, when facing off against opponents empowered by Zodiark, individuals who wish to kill pretty much everyone to advance their goals. Once Zodiark and his allies cease to be a threat, we currently have no evidence that Hydaelyn will continue to interfere, and SOME evidence that she will NOT (e.g., Answers lyrics).

It's also worth noting that the WoL's opposition to the Garleans is not influenced by Hydaelyn. The WoL would be fighting them regardless of whether they were an Ascian puppet empire. In fact, MOST of the the conflict with the Garleans took place well before the WoL had any idea the Garleans were an Ascian puppet empire (and, for that matter, well before the GARLEANS even knew the Garleans were a puppet empire, and most of them STILL don't know). The question is, did HYDAELYN know the Garleans were an Ascian puppet empire? That's unclear; it's likely she knew the Ascians were up to something, but she might not have suspected the Garleans specifically. There's plenty of evidence that Hydaelyn is not all-knowing.

A good question to ask is this: If the WoL had never been granted the Echo/Blessing by Hydaelyn, what would they have done? Very likely, many of the same things. They'd still be a paragon of warriors, fighting the Garlean Empire on behalf of the Eorzean Alliance. The Alliance would likely steer them WELL away from any Primals - it would be disaster if such a warrior was Tempered - and the Primals would be handled by the usual ungodly costly human wave tactics. The Ascians likely wouldn't take any particular interest in the WoL; while a powerful warrior, conflict with Garlemald is a good thing in their eyes, and powerful warriors on both sides is both normal and expected.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

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Good points, I must consent that she doesn't know how a WoL turns out later after she hands out the blessings, as we've already seen some that veered off the path (unless she cant forsee certain kinds of interferences like Ascians, but thats probably reading too much into it).

As for the passiveness of the blessing, are you sure? I sorta-kinda remember it having something to do with our immense aether reserves, but I might be mistaken on that. Aetherial manipulation being what it is, just having that aether pool is a vast power advantage. The echo might also affect our uncanny efficiency with job stones, though I admit this is pure speculation.

Agreed, the Garlean argument kind of hangs on how much Hydaelyn knows about Ascian movements. If she knew they were behind the Empire, she might deliberately hand the blessing to someone in the vicinity that would likely fight them? I guess that would make her speculative instead of manipulative?

And yeah, I kind of agree. The WoL would probably do more or less the same without the echo and blessing, albeit probably less efficiently. Possibly cheering for Arenvald from the sidelines? For arguments sake though, its still technically possible that the echo itself has something to do with the WoLs personality. We are lacking data and what we have is probably biased, but echo holders so far were all in some... active roles so far? Adventurers, Scions, WoLs, Ascians, Leviathan summoning fishmen. Just having the echo might compel the holder to a more "adventurous" life.

What Hydaelyn is doing then, is basically gambling on promising echo users, preferably within range of ascian plots, hoping to tip the scales. Kind of weird though, isn't it? If that is her plan of opposing the Ascians, she wasn't doing a great job of it so far... before the current WoL the Ascians were pretty much on a winning streak. Was she summoned with this plan in mind, or did something go wrong since the Sundering?

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

As for the passiveness of the blessing, are you sure? I sorta-kinda remember it having something to do with our immense aether reserves, but I might be mistaken on that. Aetherial manipulation being what it is, just having that aether pool is a vast power advantage. The echo might also affect our uncanny efficiency with job stones, though I admit this is pure speculation.

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Shadowbringers muddied this point a bit with the revelation that we are more whole of a pre-sundered person than most people and are souls are more aetherically dense. Even without the benefit of the blessing or echo, we have more going on than everyone else and it’s likely that’s why we were chosen. Plus all the insinuation that we summoned Hydaelyn ourself and that every WoL throughout history and across the multiverse is us, over and over.

This revelation plus Emet admitting that he’s tempered kind of puts a damper on deeper, nuanced meanings to the story and people are citing moral relativism in a story that I believe is more black and white and is leans towards predestined fate.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Shadowbringers muddied this point a bit with the revelation that we are more whole of a pre-sundered person than most people and are souls are more aetherically dense. Even without the benefit of the blessing or echo, we have more going on than everyone else and it’s likely that’s why we were chosen. Plus all the insinuation that we summoned Hydaelyn ourself and that every WoL throughout history and across the multiverse is us, over and over.

This revelation plus Emet admitting that he’s tempered kind of puts a damper on deeper, nuanced meanings to the story and people are citing moral relativism in a story that I believe is more black and white and is leans towards predestined fate.

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Given the time frame and number of successful calamities, I think its safe to state that even if the current WoL was around in previous eras in some form he / she must not have been very successful at their jobs (lack of shards?). If nothing else, the fact that it took 7-8 rejoinings for our counter-offensive against the Ascians to be successful, makes one question the validity or integrity of the original plan.

Recent revelations do muddy the waters a bit about what makes us special, but as far as we've been told by Y'shtola, post-Ardbert the WoLs soul didn't really change much from their pre-expansion selfs. With our extra shard, we did mend our souls, and got rid of the extra light aether, but other than that she did not note any other major changes (possibly she just cant see the difference?).

Combined with the fact that Emet did mock us for not being able to contain and control the amount of aether we've collected from the Wardens, I would *guess* that our natural aether reserves aren't expanding with rejoinings, only our free storage and ability to manipulate greater amounts.

As for morality, I can see that to be the case, and honestly I kiiind of fear it to be true? We've dabbled a bit in moral relativism with pre-ascian twist Garlean commentary and Heavenswards dragons. Clearly, we've been hitting the notes with ShB. Hell, Emet outright says it that one time. Feels like they are heading in a definitive direction. At this point dancing back into absolute moralities would feel like a 180, or at the very least would undermine some of the previous characters and narrative undertones. Its kind of a one way street once you start going down either way.

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

And to clarify, I have no bias against Hydaelyn or her actions. I'm just untrusting and cynical towards everything in general, until factually proven otherwise (at which point I might just become plain bitter, but thats another question).

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I know I've been doing a decent amount of Hydelyn defending in this thread but my stance really hasn't changed from when I made the thread Is Hydelyn secretly evil? years ago. What she did to Minfilia has/will never sit right with me, hell it has only been made worse due to ShB and I straight up doubt her whenever she does something but I've been sitting here for ages waiting for the "I knew it" to no avail and I've slowly come to expect that the writers would probably have her be benevolent the entire time.

What would've been good to have seen is an ascian go against the other ascians and was put down as this would show that despite being tempered they act freely but since they haven't whereas with Hydelyn we have had 3 instances of people she blessed go against/harm her,
1.Adjora
2.Ysayle
3.Ardbert and co.
This is currently one of the big difference between Zodiark and Hydelyn as primal entities and really why I hate they are primals too, Zodiark by all accounts shown does strip free will away(One true God anyone :p) whereas Hydelyn atm with the information we have does not(Though I theorise Minfilia was tempered when she became the voice of the mother but 0 proof there so theory it remains).

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Originally Posted by Rannie

@Crushnight, there was only 2 tribes the Oronir and the Dotharl that traveled south with Hien to help with the Doman Liberation (well per the EE Volume 2).

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Ah ty so we had 3 tribes help with Doma liberation which means every other tribe refused to go which is what 30-40 (ik there were 50 tribes but I don't have book on hand to know which have been absorbed/killed off/fled etc) that is not really forced coercion of the Xeala and definitely leans on the they wanted to side.

I would argue the difference of opinion stems from some people being more willing to forgive Hydaelyn for her faults and flaws rather than hold her in contempt for them.

Zodiark may not have been intended as a "wish-granting machine," but the argument against using extant life on the planet to bring back the dead is a sound one - the future belongs to those living in the here and now, not ghosts of the past.

The Warrior of Light does what they do out of choice, not compulsion from Hydaelyn. The various other chosen of Hydaelyn that turned against her or deviated from what she'd consider acceptable behavior is testament to that - as it is to her not interfering in history beyond what's necessary to prevent those living in the here and now from dying at the hand of the Ascians and/or becoming Zodiark's food.

While there was and still is no explicit reason for the Warrior of Light's raw power sans Hydaelyn's blessing, their status as an inhabitant of the Source means their soul is considerably more dense than those of the shards due to Rejoinings; it gets more dense than the standard Source inhabitant's at the very end of Shadowbringers by merging with Ardbert. On the other hand, the actual explanation for their knack for picking up things so easily and power besides is probably their heavily-implied-to-be Ancient soul. Popular theory is that they are the reincarnation of the missing fourteenth member of the Amaurotine Conclave and/or were part of the group that summoned Hydaelyn; neither of these are confirmed, but it is heavily implied that they were one of Hades' close friends (his short story, his chummy familiarity with the Warrior of Light particularly after rallying the inhabitants of Eulmore to get the lift working again, and his denial in regards to "seeing" the Warrior of Light as an Ancient just before their great battle collectively and strongly suggest if not outright confirm that Hades knew the Warrior of Light's Ancient self).

I'd rather stick to what's known and how it's presented in-story than try to press a narrative that requires twisting and warping those selfsame facts and presentation. I hate forced narratives. I remain leery of Hydaelyn due to the circumstances surrounding Minfilia's transformation into "The Word of the Mother," but if Hythlodaeus' shade is wholly truthful it's difficult to argue that her intentions are anything but benevolent, and the thousands of years she remains inactive do not suggest a desire to control or shape history.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

For Hydaelyn not to have tempered her summoners, even a little, would require she is somehow an exception to the rule.

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Shiva never tempered anyone.

(According to the game dialogue it doesn't seem like King Moggle Mog Tempered anyone either, even the Mogglesguard, but I've also always conceded that with Moogles, it's kind of hard to tell.)

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

Zodiark by all accounts shown does strip free will away(One true God anyone :p)

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As a point of note, someone can believe a being (revealed to be a Primal born from the beliefs of their summoners) to be a god, while not actually being Tempered by that Primal. The Sahagin Priest who summoned Leviathan was definitely not Tempered, but acted just as fanatically as their followers.

So at this point we don't know whether Lahabrea's belief in Zodiark as the One True God is due to his Tempering, or just because he's several Copper Rivets loose in the head.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

Ah ty so we had 3 tribes help with Doma liberation which means every other tribe refused to go which is what 30-40 (ik there were 50 tribes but I don't have book on hand to know which have been absorbed/killed off/fled etc) that is not really forced coercion of the Xeala and definitely leans on the they wanted to side.

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The Nadaam was frankly a little weird in terms of how important it's supposed to be. Everyone involved in it says that it's incredibly important to show who rules the Steppes, but the three biggest tribes of those Steppes (Adarkim, Jhungid, Kharlu) don't even bother showing up. And we know at least the Adarkim are aware of it, since there's the Khan of the Adarkim hanging around Reunion (and giving you a minor sidequest).

Given the Jhungid and Kharlu are supposed to be in a forever war with each other, one would imagine they'd be interested in a proper match to determine who is the true "winner".

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Originally Posted by Cilia

I would argue the difference of opinion stems from some people being more willing to forgive Hydaelyn for her faults and flaws rather than hold her in contempt for them.

The Warrior of Light does what they do out of choice, not compulsion from Hydaelyn. (snip)

I'd rather stick to what's known and how it's presented in-story than try to press a narrative that requires twisting and warping those selfsame facts and presentation. I hate forced narratives. I remain leery of Hydaelyn due to the circumstances surrounding Minfilia's transformation into "The Word of the Mother," but if Hythlodaeus' shade is wholly truthful it's difficult to argue that her intentions are anything but benevolent, and the thousands of years she remains inactive do not suggest a desire to control or shape history.

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To my mind, the problem lies in people making assumptions based on opinions and then insisting that they are facts. That's the kind of post in these threads that always derails them and causes them to get heated. What most of us are doing here is indulging in speculation and what ifs, but then someone comes in and goes 'no, no, you're all wrong, THIS is how it is' and that puts the cat among the pigeons.

Like you, I am wary of Hydaelyn and have been since the Praetorium. The more her story has developed, the more wary I've gotten. I'm very much inclined to think she's a construct with one program only - destroy Zodiark - and everything else is irrelevant. But that is my opinion, it's an opinion based on how I see Hydaelyn's in-game presentation, but it's not set in stone. If things in-game take me down a different path, that's cool, but they will need to be convincing.

People's musings here are just that - musings - so please let's try and be non-confrontational about how we respond to them. Most of us manage that very well, imo, but some individuals seem to want to beat folks over the head with the 'Hydaelyn is the BEST!' hammer

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

(According to the game dialogue it doesn't seem like King Moggle Mog Tempered anyone either, even the Mogglesguard, but I've also always conceded that with Moogles, it's kind of hard to tell.)

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While they never directly came out and said it, I came away from the Moggle Mog quests with the impression that the Mogsguard WERE tempered, and the other Moogles planned to remove them. Probably not kill them; Moogles seem too mild-mannered for that, in general, but quarantine them, at the very least. (And not too effectively, given that they were able to summon Mog EX.) Just my take on things.

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The Sahagin Priest who summoned Leviathan was definitely not Tempered, but acted just as fanatically as their followers.

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No need to be vague about gender. We know from both the Sahagin Beast Tribe quests, and some Ondo side quests, that surface dwellers rarely or never see Sahagin females. Every Sahagin we meet, including the Priest, is male.

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Originally Posted by Elladie

People's musings here are just that - musings - so please let's try and be non-confrontational about how we respond to them. Most of us manage that very well, imo, but some individuals seem to want to beat folks over the head with the 'Hydaelyn is the BEST!' hammer

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It's been my impression that the Black Knights are considerably more vocal than the White. And, honestly, they have to be, in order for their suspicions to not be dismissed out of hand. This game practically beats the player over the head in its efforts to depict Hydaelyn as a benevolent, earnest character. All of the "suspicious" behaviors she exhibits? The characters in-game have the same information that we do, and none of them have shown any signs of losing faith in Hydaelyn's goodness. Even Yoshi P is giving the players the side-eye for throwing Hy under the bus at the word of an Ascian, of all people.

The writers seriously do not seem to be trying to paint Hydaelyn as a morally grey character (let alone black). Characters in-game that are considered to be extraordinarily wise, such as Loisouix, believe in her benevolence, and for SE to turn around and pull a "twist" that reveals she's actually full of dark intentions would essentially be painting these characters as fools. I just don't see that as being in the cards.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

While they never directly came out and said it, I came away from the Moggle Mog quests with the impression that the Mogsguard WERE tempered, and the other Moogles planned to remove them. Probably not kill them; Moogles seem too mild-mannered for that, in general, but quarantine them, at the very least. (And not too effectively, given that they were able to summon Mog EX.) Just my take on things.

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The Thornmarch EX quest dialogue states that Moggle Mog was re-summoned out of spite, rather than because the Mogglesguard were now fanatical worshippers of a Primal. As in, Kuplo Kopp scolded them for summoning Moggle Mog the first time, and failed his Diplomacy check, so the Mogglesguard summoned Moggle Mog again.

Kuplo Kopp also said "just beat them up a little" rather than "they are beyond saving", which is different from what we know about dealing with Tempered individuals.

Having said that, I did mention that it's kind of difficult to tell, because for all we know being Tempered by Moggle Mog doesn't make you a fanatical worshipper, but just makes you even more bloody-minded and stubborn and contrarian. Which is exactly the state of mind that caused Thornmarch EX, so who knows.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

...This game practically beats the player over the head in its efforts to depict Hydaelyn as a benevolent, earnest character...

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Which, given the stories history of red herrings and subversion of expectations, should be suspicious to no one, ever. Even less so, since it wouldn't fit in with the overarching themes and messages they were pushing since ARR.

I don't think anyone expects for Hydaelyn to turn out to be secretly a total a-hole here. But given the current narrative, I don't think its that outlandish to think that she's not completely as good and benevolent as she's made out to be.

And discussing that and its implications is such great fun. :)

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

It's been my impression that the Black Knights are considerably more vocal than the White. And, honestly, they have to be, in order for their suspicions to not be dismissed out of hand. This game practically beats the player over the head in its efforts to depict Hydaelyn as a benevolent, earnest character. All of the "suspicious" behaviors she exhibits? The characters in-game have the same information that we do, and none of them have shown any signs of losing faith in Hydaelyn's goodness. Even Yoshi P is giving the players the side-eye for throwing Hy under the bus at the word of an Ascian, of all people.

The writers seriously do not seem to be trying to paint Hydaelyn as a morally grey character (let alone black). Characters in-game that are considered to be extraordinarily wise, such as Loisouix, believe in her benevolence, and for SE to turn around and pull a "twist" that reveals she's actually full of dark intentions would essentially be painting these characters as fools. I just don't see that as being in the cards.

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And you don't think calling people Black Knights isn't going to rub people up the wrong way? That seems to be aimed at causing offence. My apologies if you didn't intend it that way, but you should perhaps take more care how you phrase things. I do know how easy it is when things get heated to start hurling insults - I have done it myself - but it's rather egregious to do it in a response to a request for trying to keep a balanced perspective.

I don't believe anyone is arguing that Hydaelyn is evil. I'm certainly not. I don't think - in view of what we've recently learned - she has enough autonomy to have a moral position, she merely does what she's designed to do. Whatever that costs. Including shattering the star and everything on it into 14 pieces and hi-jacking Minfilia. To reiterate again, this is just my opinion. I don't agree the writers have gone out of their way to show Hydaelyn as not morally grey, I think they've been very careful to present her in such a way that the player can interpret her actions differently depending on perspective. I'm not blinkered enough to think my perspective is the only one, and I'm happy to discuss my thoughts cordially. But I'm getting tired of being demonised because I don't jump on the 'Hydaelyn is amazing train' right away.

There is plenty in the game to allow me to be suspicious of Hydaelyn's role. I don't think she's evil, I'm not saying the Ascians are right, I don't want to fall down and worship Zodiark. But I am not accepting Hydaelyn as an all seeing, all knowing, all wise Mother currently because that isn't how she's coming across to me in the story. You're welcome to disagree with my interpretation; my point is that it's a valid one, and the writers have made sure it can come across as a valid one in their presentation of Hydaelyn

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

Given the time frame and number of successful calamities, I think its safe to state that even if the current WoL was around in previous eras in some form he / she must not have been very successful at their jobs (lack of shards?). If nothing else, the fact that it took 7-8 rejoinings for our counter-offensive against the Ascians to be successful, makes one question the validity or integrity of the original plan.

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This idea overlook the times when the WoL did successfully thwart the Ascian's plan to cause a rejoining. The WoL's historical successes in doing so aren't obvious, because when the WoL stops a Rejoining from happening, it isn't recorded in history. We only know that the WoL failed seven times (eight times if you include the 13th becoming a Void of Darkness), and for obvious reasons those failures are the ones that stick out in history. It's very much a case of "Evil Only has to Win Once", in this case no matter how many times the WoL succeeds, the Ascians only need to succeed 14 times, and they have eternity to succeed those 14 times. Emet-Selch in ShB also seems to have a rather contentious history with the WoL, almost as if Emet had tried many times before to convince the WoL to understand his side.

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Originally Posted by MoofiaBossVal

This idea overlook the times when the WoL did successfully thwart the Ascian's plan to cause a rejoining. The WoL's historical successes in doing so aren't obvious, because when the WoL stops a Rejoining from happening, it isn't recorded in history. We only know that the WoL failed seven times (eight times if you include the 13th becoming a Void of Darkness), and for obvious reasons those failures are the ones that stick out in history. It's very much a case of "Evil Only has to Win Once", in this case no matter how many times the WoL succeeds, the Ascians only need to succeed 14 times, and they have eternity to succeed those 14 times. Emet-Selch in ShB also seems to have a rather contentious history with the WoL, almost as if Emet had tried many times before to convince the WoL to understand his side.

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I admit, its possible both ways. I don't think we have any concrete information for either scenario. I think the most we have on the subject is Emet mentioning "others like us in every era", that fought his plans, but he never mentioned their fates or if any of them were ever successful at thwarting them.

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Originally Posted by Elladie

I'm very much inclined to think she's a construct with one program only - destroy Zodiark - and everything else is irrelevant.

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Except that isn't Hydaelyn's purpose at all, according to Hythlodaeus' shade. His account of it (which is probably the closest thing we have to an unbiased account) is that she was created because some of the Ancients felt "enough had been sacrificed to Zodiark - that [the post-Terminus] world should belong to the new lives newly born" instead of those selfsame new lives being sacrificed to Zodiark to bring back those Ancients who sacrificed themselves to create and empower him. Simply put, she is the embodiment of the idea that the future should belong to those living in the here and now, not ghosts of the past. Her actions are bent toward that idea, but due to the power disparity between the two (Hydaelyn has, at most, 1/8 of Zodiark's full power) she had to sunder him to fulfill that directive. Unfortunately due to his status as "the will of the Star," that sundered the planet in the process; the rest is history. (Actually destroying Zodiark through force would likely have even more disastrous consequences.)

There may come a time when it's necessary to rise up against and depose Hydaelyn, Fate/Grand Order Babylonia style. Should such a time come I will have no objection to doing so, but shadiness with "The Word of the Mother" notwithstanding, nothing has suggested to me it will.

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Originally Posted by MoofiaBossVal

This idea overlook the times when the WoL did successfully thwart the Ascian's plan to cause a rejoining. The WoL's historical successes in doing so aren't obvious, because when the WoL stops a Rejoining from happening, it isn't recorded in history. We only know that the WoL failed seven times (eight times if you include the 13th becoming a Void of Darkness), and for obvious reasons those failures are the ones that stick out in history. It's very much a case of "Evil Only has to Win Once", in this case no matter how many times the WoL succeeds, the Ascians only need to succeed 14 times, and they have eternity to succeed those 14 times. Emet-Selch in ShB also seems to have a rather contentious history with the WoL, almost as if Emet had tried many times before to convince the WoL to understand his side.

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The Sixth Astral Era (which constitutes most of recorded history) lasted ~1,200 years without known Ascian interference until Emet-Selch engineered the Garlean Empire. While it is impossible to verify, based on this it is unlikely Warriors of Light were active before Hydaelyn sounded the Echo after the Battle of Silvertear Skies. It is also unknown how often Warriors of Light were active in previous eras, but this sets a precedent of them not being active unless the Ascians' machinations are close to fruition.

Emet-Selch's alternating chumminess and enmity with the Warrior of Light probably stems from the heavy implication they were a close friend of his back in the days of Amaurot; having an old friend's reincarnation as your newfound direst foe would no doubt lead to such behavior.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Except that isn't Hydaelyn's purpose at all, according to Hythlodaeus' shade. His account of it (which is probably the closest thing we have to an unbiased account) is that she was created because some of the Ancients felt "enough had been sacrificed to Zodiark - that [the post-Terminus] world should belong to the new lives newly born" instead of those selfsame new lives being sacrificed to Zodiark to bring back those Ancients who sacrificed themselves to create and empower him. Simply put, she is the embodiment of the idea that the future should belong to those living in the here and now, not ghosts of the past. Her actions are bent toward that idea, but due to the power disparity between the two (Hydaelyn has, at most, 1/8 of Zodiark's full power) she had to sunder him to fulfill that directive. Unfortunately due to his status as "the will of the Star," that sundered the planet in the process; the rest is history. (Actually destroying Zodiark through force would likely have even more disastrous consequences.)

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There is a void of information on that matter. We kinda know why she was summoned. But I don't think we have any idea what her concrete purpose and directive was (is) that the creators bestowed on her? I doubt she was just manifested as an ideal. Defeating something much stronger would imply some premeditation.

We're told creation magic worked by having a pretty good image of what you were creating. Unexpected things happened, but I think its unlikely that she came to be with dimension slicing powers by accident.

It's probably safe to assume that defeating Zodiark was always part of the plan. Not sure about the rest though. She sorta took up guard duty afterwards, trying to embody the ideals you mentioned? It might be her own will, nature, a design feature, or all of them. Either way an imperfect system, seeing how more than half the shards are gone.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

The Sixth Astral Era (which constitutes most of recorded history) lasted ~1,200 years without known Ascian interference until Emet-Selch engineered the Garlean Empire. While it is impossible to verify, based on this it is unlikely Warriors of Light were active before Hydaelyn sounded the Echo after the Battle of Silvertear Skies. It is also unknown how often Warriors of Light were active in previous eras, but this sets a precedent of them not being active unless the Ascians' machinations are close to fruition.

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Tenzen existed in the 6th Astral Era or thereabouts and he had the echo. He was also said to speak to Hydaelyn. I thought there was something about Koryu being related to ascians tomfoolery but I'm probably misremembering.

For previous eras, we're told that each era has had it's own Zodiac Braves, which seems to be the Ivalice region's name for Warriors of Light. It's unclear whether they mean era like everyone else means era or something else but there are always 12 at a time and there are 8 known. The only clue is that the first Zodiac Braves were led by Ajora several hundred years before Delita. Ajora ended up becoming a prophet of a new religion and summoned an extremely powerful primal after he toppled the bad empire so he was probably one of Hydaelyn's mistakes.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

No need to be vague about gender. We know from both the Sahagin Beast Tribe quests, and some Ondo side quests, that surface dwellers rarely or never see Sahagin females. Every Sahagin we meet, including the Priest, is male.

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Did you just assume the priests gender? How dare you, maybe they identity as a jet plane, or a tractor, or maybe as a song upon the wind.

But, in all seriousness, did that comment need a reply? Their, while gender neutral, can be used even when the gender is known, sorta in an elevation sense. But even then, I'm betting the initial poster just forgot and used Their to be safe.

Also the "Their" in that statement could refer to both the Priest and/or Leviathan. And while the Priest's gender might be known Leviathan's could be up in the air, depending on who summons them. I guess you could say they might be gender... fluid, lol...

My trial ans subsequent execution will be a week from today. T.T

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Originally Posted by Elladie

And you don't think calling people Black Knights isn't going to rub people up the wrong way? That seems to be aimed at causing offence. My apologies if you didn't intend it that way, but you should perhaps take more care how you phrase things. I do know how easy it is when things get heated to start hurling insults - I have done it myself - but it's rather egregious to do it in a response to a request for trying to keep a balanced perspective.

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No, it wasn't intended to be offensive, by virtue of the same fact that "White Knighting" has become such a overused accusation that no one who uses it unironically is taken seriously anymore. Seriously calling someone a "White Knight" is as much forum suicide as invoking Godwin's Law, and if the same is not true for Black Knighting, it should be.

I used both Black and White Knights in the referenced paragraph as a drily sarcastic way of portraying the two groups, and if anyone in either camp SERIOUSLY thinks anyone in the other is mindlessly supporting/bashing Hydaelyn, they need a reality check.

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I don't believe anyone is arguing that Hydaelyn is evil. I'm certainly not. I don't think - in view of what we've recently learned - she has enough autonomy to have a moral position, she merely does what she's designed to do. Whatever that costs. Including shattering the star and everything on it into 14 pieces and hi-jacking Minfilia. To reiterate again, this is just my opinion. I don't agree the writers have gone out of their way to show Hydaelyn as not morally grey, I think they've been very careful to present her in such a way that the player can interpret her actions differently depending on perspective. I'm not blinkered enough to think my perspective is the only one, and I'm happy to discuss my thoughts cordially. But I'm getting tired of being demonised because I don't jump on the 'Hydaelyn is amazing train' right away.

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For a time, after Emet's revelations, I had downgraded my perception of Hydaelyn in much the same way that you did - that she was a sophisticated automaton. Again, though, as I noted in my discussion, I think that the Scions utter failure to doubt Hydaelyn is a clue the writers are giving us that there's more to her than that. Minfilia's sacrifice is cheapened, if the god she trusted her life to turns out to have just been heartlessly using her. I don't think the writers want that. The Scions heard every word from Emet-Selch that we do, and while they expressed some sympathy for the Ancients' fall, they haven't expressed any of the concerns that we have about Hydaelyn's character.

At this point? I believe that Emet earnestly believes that Hydaelyn is a Primal, just like Zodiark - but I'm starting to think that he's wrong. The Ascians' greatest fault is their unending arrogance. They always presume that they know best, and that their way is the only way possible - and therefore, Hydaelyn must be the same thing Zodiark is, a pale imitation of their (obviously superior, cuz they made it) all powerful god, who was only able to gain the upper hand by way of a cheap trick.

While I agree that Hydaelyn probably is not as powerful as Zodiark was, I AM having my doubts that she's a Primal, or at least if she is, she's a very different sort of Primal. The following is speculation on my part, but I think it fits the facts we have so far: Where Zodiark is a will of the planet the Convocation created to suit their goals, I think she's the TRUE will of the planet, given form. The planet was suffering, on the verge of being torn apart by the Ancients' Creation magic - magic they were using with abandon, not realizing the toll it was taking. Even BEFORE the Sound emerged, the world was on the path to destruction, thanks to these abuses. The Sound was the only way she could respond - at least until the Dissenters stepped in to provide her with a form that gave her more agency (and possibly sapience, as well).

I think things are shaping into a quasi-environmentalist message, much like the one provided in FFVII: An advanced society abusing a seemingly endless resource, either unaware of the harm they're causing or pretending it doesn't exist because to acknowledge it would endanger the comfortable status quo. The Convocation, when finally forced to confront the issue, chose to try to enforce the status quo, rather than acknowledge the damage they were causing. If the planet was being unruly, summon an all-powerful being to force it to toe the line! No compromises were to be made, the world would be as THEY will it, and their society would continue on as it was. The Dissenters, on the other hand, recognized the harm, and gave the planet the tools it needed to fight back.

The result is a being with her own will and her own personality, one occasionally forced by Morton's Fork to make hard decisions, but ultimately meaning well.

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There is plenty in the game to allow me to be suspicious of Hydaelyn's role. I don't think she's evil, I'm not saying the Ascians are right, I don't want to fall down and worship Zodiark. But I am not accepting Hydaelyn as an all seeing, all knowing, all wise Mother currently because that isn't how she's coming across to me in the story. You're welcome to disagree with my interpretation; my point is that it's a valid one, and the writers have made sure it can come across as a valid one in their presentation of Hydaelyn

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I don't think ANY of Hydaelyn's supporters see her as all seeing, all knowing, and all wise, and for you to suggest that is practically a "White Knight" accusation in itself, even if you don't use the words! Her supporters DO believe that she's a good person who means well, and is doing the best that she can with the tools that she has, minimizing harm as much as she is able while still preventing the worst from coming to pass - but because she is not all-powerful or all-knowing, that harm is not zero. In-game, not even Louisoix or the Scions ever showed any belief that Hydaelyn was a perfect being. They did regard her as a powerful friend and ally, and one who should be supported.

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

There is a void of information on that matter. We kinda know why she was summoned. But I don't think we have any idea what her concrete purpose and directive was (is) that the creators bestowed on her? I doubt she was just manifested as an ideal. Defeating something much stronger would imply some premeditation.

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If we look at Emet-Selch's account of events as told after the Qitana Ravel, and use Hythlodaeus' account to filter out his pro-Zodiark bias and gain some additional context, Hydaelyn's purpose becomes explicitly clear.

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Originally Posted by Emet-Selch

[Zodiark was a] savior mighty and magnificent, deserving of reverence and gratitude... one would have thought. Yet some thought otherwise. From the fears of these naysayers would rise Hydaelyn - She who was to serve as His shackles. To bind Him and hold Him in check. And so they fought, and they fought, and they fought. And in the end... Hydaelyn was victorious. With all Her strength She smote Him - dealing a blow so devastating that it split the very fabric of reality. And thus was Zodiark banished and His being divided.

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Originally Posted by Hythlodaeus

The cycle of life had begun anew, and we reconsidered the means by which we might protect it. The Convocation decided thus: we would nurture our world until it was bursting with vitality. Then, when the time was right, we would offer some portion of its living energy to Zodiark... In return, He would restore to us those brethren whose souls had fed His strength, and together we would resume our role as stewards. There were, however, those who disagreed with this plan. They argued that enough had been sacrificed to Zodiark─that this new world should belong to the lives newly born. These dissidents surrendered their life energies in the creation of Hydaelyn, an incarnation of their opposing belief. And for the first time in history, our people stood divided... Know you, then, how this conflict ended?

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Hydaelyn was created to serve as a check against Zodiark's nearly almighty power and to stop his supporters from perverting the cycle of life and death.

Her ability to split and bind Zodiark stems from her elemental affinity - as we now know Light is the element of stasis and enervation, and it would be needed on the scale Hydaelyn can use to do so. According to Emet-Selch's account the finishing blow on Zodiark was so grievous it alone tore reality into the shards and Source, and unfortunately that's one bit Hythlodaeus' account doesn't give additional context to, but the conclusion I draw from the information we have is that Zodiark's whole was too great for her to bind, so Hydaelyn broke him down into pieces to do so... but because Zodiark is "the will of the Star made manifest," that did the same to the world in the process.

Further information may change or give additional context to this, but it is the clearest picture available of the origins of the Hydaelyn / Zodiark conflict. It's not vague in any way.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

While I agree that Hydaelyn probably is not as powerful as Zodiark was, I AM having my doubts that she's a Primal, or at least if she is, she's a very different sort of Primal. The following is speculation on my part, but I think it fits the facts we have so far: Where Zodiark is a will of the planet the Convocation created to suit their goals, I think she's the TRUE will of the planet, given form. The planet was suffering, on the verge of being torn apart by the Ancients' Creation magic - magic they were using with abandon, not realizing the toll it was taking. Even BEFORE the Sound emerged, the world was on the path to destruction, thanks to these abuses. The Sound was the only way she could respond - at least until the Dissenters stepped in to provide her with a form that gave her more agency (and possibly sapience, as well).

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While I am not of the mind that Hydaelyn is the "true" will of the planet, I concur that the Ancients' heavy use of creation magicks may have been directly or indirectly responsible for the Terminus. There is a cause behind everything.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

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I don't think it makes sense to attribute that specific power of breaking up Zodiark just to her elemental affinity though? Umbral and astral are depicted as polar opposites, and one has no distinct (known) advantage over the other. If we assume that Zodiark is stronger, and that he fought back at all, it wouldn't make sense that he lost in one "hit" (or at all).

If she was summoned to "keep Zodiark in check", then one would assume the summoners gave her specific powers that would make it possible, given the difference in strength. I guess keeping him in check technically includes slicing him and the world up, sealing him, but then that would imply that she was either designed to do so from the start, or that her creators miscalculated somewhere, did not expect this outcome, and Hydaelyn came up with a convenient solution by herself which ignores the difference in power.

Or, as mentioned, its possible that Zodiark just didn't resist at all. After all, for all we know Zodiark might've been just a mindless wish fulfillment device (which might also explain why the effects of his tempering seem to be as lax as they are). If such is the case then I fully agree with your train of thought.

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

I don't think it makes sense to attribute that specific power of breaking up Zodiark just to her elemental affinity though? Umbral and astral are depicted as polar opposites, and one has no distinct (known) advantage over the other. If we assume that Zodiark is stronger, and that he fought back at all, it wouldn't make sense that he lost in one "hit" (or at all).

If she was summoned to "keep Zodiark in check", then one would assume the summoners gave her specific powers that would make it possible, given the difference in strength. I guess keeping him in check technically includes slicing him and the world up, sealing him, but then that would imply that she was either designed to do so from the start, or that her creators miscalculated somewhere, did not expect this outcome, and Hydaelyn came up with a convenient solution by herself which ignores the difference in power.

Or, as mentioned, its possible that Zodiark just didn't resist at all. After all, for all we know Zodiark might've been just a mindless wish fulfillment device (which might also explain why the effects of his tempering seem to be as lax as they are). If such is the case then I fully agree with your train of thought.

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This is getting pedantic.

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Originally Posted by Emet-Selch

... Hydaelyn - She who was to serve as [Zodiark's] shackles. To bind Him and hold Him in check.

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Originally Posted by Hythlodaeus

[Zodiark] would restore to us those brethren whose souls had fed His strength, and together we would resume our role as stewards. There were, however, those who disagreed with this plan. They argued that enough had been sacrificed to Zodiark─that this new world should belong to the lives newly born. These dissidents surrendered their life energies in the creation of Hydaelyn, an incarnation of their opposing belief.

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Hydaelyn was created to imprison Zodiark; defeating him would be part and parcel with that, and as per Emet-Selch's account they did fight for a long while. The sentiment behind doing so was that life should exist on its own terms and not as livestock for Zodiark's followers to use as fuel for him. (Specifically not to be used as fuel for hypocritically resurrecting the dead in order to protect the cycle of life.)

How did Hydaelyn do as much? It's not entirely clear given she would have, at most, marginally less than 1/4 of the energy that was used to create Zodiark, but aside from being an existence opposite to him (having the opposite polarity, if you must be so pedantic) her more specialized purpose may have made her more energy efficient. ("Do whatever we want you to" vs. "Imprison the other guy.")

Again, I would posit that Hydaelyn's Light element polarity is a major contributing factor to her ability to defeat Zodiark, and that the Sundering was an unintended side effect of sundering Zodiark in order to fulfill her directive of imprisoning him due to his whole being too powerful.

This is the most that can be derived from the available information. More information is required to get a clearer picture of what happened and how it happened.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

This is the most that can be derived from the available information. More information is required to get a clearer picture of what happened and how it happened.

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Bear in mind, too, that Hythlodaeus does NOT provide a corroborating source to accompany Emet's - he's the SAME SOURCE. Even if independently willed, Hythlodaeus was created by Emet, from Emet's own memories and beliefs. While Hythlodaeus might be more open and unbiased about what Hydaelyn and her purpose is, if Emet believes that Hy is one thing, then Hythlodaeus will believe the same. If Emet is outright WRONG about what Hydaelyn is, then Hythlodaeus will be, as well.

We definitely need more information, and an independent perspective. If Hydaelyn is on trial, right now we have only her own testimony and Emet-Selch's. We need an unbiased third party before we can make any kind of judgment.

I am interested in seeing how Zodiark might be characterized, if he is brought back. (I don't see how Zodiark can be brought back without destroying the remaining Shards, and it'd feel anticlimactic if he was introduced as a new character in the last few hours to serve as the final villain to the mega story. I think it's more likely that Elidibus will become the avatar of Zodiark, or Zenos will consume Zodiark's power).

He was initially created to save the world, born out of the desperation and self sacrifice of the Amaurotines. You'd think that Zodiark would be more protective of life? We know that the Convocation were planning to feed the newborn life to Zodiark, but we have no indication as to Zodiark's thoughts on the matter. The Ascian's have painted him in a bad light as the generic Evil God, but for all we know he could've been pretty chill.

The backstory implies that the Convocation thought that they could somehow get Zodiark to accept the sacrifices. Zenos was able to dominate Shinryu (and thinks he can consume Zodiark's power, though we don't know if that is Zenos power tripping, or if he intends on mastering his abilities or formulating a plan to make that possible), but Zodiark seems so awesomely powerful that he might be able to resist any form of mind control. Maybe if the 13 remaining Convocation members combined their strength, they would have had the power to dominate Zodiark? This was back before mankind got split, when they were at 14/14 of their full strength, rather than the 8/14 seen in most of the Source's inhabitants and the 1/14 seen on the rest of the Shards.

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Originally Posted by MoofiaBossVal

I am interested in seeing how Zodiark might be characterized, if he is brought back. (I don't see how Zodiark can be brought back without destroying the remaining Shards, and it'd feel anticlimactic if he was introduced as a new character in the last few hours to serve as the final villain to the mega story. I think it's more likely that Elidibus will become the avatar of Zodiark, or Zenos will consume Zodiark's power).

He was initially created to save the world, born out of the desperation and self sacrifice of the Amaurotines. You'd think that Zodiark would be more protective of life? We know that the Convocation were planning to feed the newborn life to Zodiark, but we have no indication as to Zodiark's thoughts on the matter. The Ascian's have painted him in a bad light as the generic Evil God, but for all we know he could've been pretty chill.

The backstory implies that the Convocation thought that they could somehow get Zodiark to accept the sacrifices. Zenos was able to dominate Shinryu (and thinks he can consume Zodiark's power, though we don't know if that is Zenos power tripping, or if he intends on mastering his abilities or formulating a plan to make that possible), but Zodiark seems so awesomely powerful that he might be able to resist any form of mind control. Maybe if the 13 remaining Convocation members combined their strength, they would have had the power to dominate Zodiark? This was back before mankind got split, when they were at 14/14 of their full strength, rather than the 8/14 seen in most of the Source's inhabitants and the 1/14 seen on the rest of the Shards.

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Zodiark already accepted sacrifices. The first sacrifice was half of their number going "please make this stop", which is tragic, but doesn't actually say anything about Zodiark. But the second sacrifice, of a further half (ie one quarter of the original number), was done to restore the environment, and I can't imagine a being powerful enough to do that and yet "protective of life" would consent to that, unless influenced by another source. So I'm wondering if the Convocation had already imposed their will on Zodiark by that time.

I've always said that we know nothing about Zodiark's will, whether good or bad, but it's very clear that the self-proclaimed representatives of Zodiark have all been very badly-behaved when it comes to leaving us be to live and let live. Given Emet-Selch's assertion that Zodiark tempered his summoners, it's not looking good for Zodiark, but it would be foolish to accept an Ascian at their word anyway, so there's always room for doubt. (Ascians don't usually speak outright falsehoods; they just speak in a way that is actively misleading, by deliberately withholding key context.)

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

Zodiark already accepted sacrifices. The first sacrifice was half of their number going "please make this stop", which is tragic, but doesn't actually say anything about Zodiark. But the second sacrifice, of a further half (ie one quarter of the original number), was done to restore the environment, and I can't imagine a being powerful enough to do that and yet "protective of life" would consent to that, unless influenced by another source. So I'm wondering if the Convocation had already imposed their will on Zodiark by that time.

I've always said that we know nothing about Zodiark's will, whether good or bad, but it's very clear that the self-proclaimed representatives of Zodiark have all been very badly-behaved when it comes to leaving us be to live and let live. Given Emet-Selch's assertion that Zodiark tempered his summoners, it's not looking good for Zodiark, but it would be foolish to accept an Ascian at their word anyway, so there's always room for doubt. (Ascians don't usually speak outright falsehoods; they just speak in a way that is actively misleading, by deliberately withholding key context.)

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I have always assumed it was nothing to do with Zodiark wanting sacrifices, only that massive amounts of aether were needed for every stage. The implication has always been that the first sacrifice was to have enough aether to create Zodiark, the second to have enough aether to power him up to create new life on the star. The third would have been to have enough aether that he could somehow restore the lost friends and family (retrieve them from the aetherial sea somehow? We've never had any clear answer of how this was going to work. We do know Emet Selch can pull the lost from the Lifestream like he did with Y'shtola so maybe it was this on a massive scale)

It has always seemed obvious to me that the reason Hydaelyn is so much weaker than Zodiark is that she wasn't created with the huge amounts of aether that he was. Zodiark wasn't accepting sacrifices, in the first instance he didn't even exist (as far as we know) This was Amaurotine creation magic on a massive scale

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

I've always said that we know nothing about Zodiark's will, whether good or bad, but it's very clear that the self-proclaimed representatives of Zodiark have all been very badly-behaved when it comes to leaving us be to live and let live. Given Emet-Selch's assertion that Zodiark tempered his summoners, it's not looking good for Zodiark, but it would be foolish to accept an Ascian at their word anyway, so there's always room for doubt. (Ascians don't usually speak outright falsehoods; they just speak in a way that is actively misleading, by deliberately withholding key context.)

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The behavior of the Tempered does not necessarily reflect on the character of the Primal. Ramuh taught us that. He disapproves of Tempering and of being summoned, and yet his Tempered do these things anyway.

Tempered are slavishly devoted to their Primal. They work toward the interests of their Primal, and work to ensure that their Primal be summoned. This means that they might do things that their Primal would expressly disapprove of - were that Primal around to speak its mind.

Sadly, with Zenos in the picture, we might NEVER know Zodiark's true feelings, if he even has any and is not just an emotionless wish-machine. I'm pretty confident that Zodiark will be summoned at some point, and that Zenos will take command as he did with Shinryu. And when that happens, we'll know as much about Zodiark's thoughts and feelings as we know about Shinryu's.

Maybe we can hope that if Zenos tries to eat Zodiark it backfires spectacularly and instead of Zenos being in control its Zodiark who takes the reins.

I think I'd prefer to have it that way instead of another Shinryu... we could atleast then hear Zodiark's point of view at that time.