Something about the new Ascian lore

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Hydaelyn’s sole purpose in summoning was to counter Zodiark and be a check on His power. If Zodiark were to completely perish, putting aside any ill effects that would happen from His demise, Hydaelyn would have no further purpose to Her continued presence.

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Yes, but it doesn't appear that her purpose was ever to destroy Zodiark, just to split him. So, since she has succeeded in that purpose, she only seems to seek to maintain that status quo.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Hydaelyn’s sole purpose in summoning was to counter Zodiark and be a check on His power. If Zodiark were to completely perish, putting aside any ill effects that would happen from His demise, Hydaelyn would have no further purpose to Her continued presence.

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not neccesarily hyds purpose is first and foremost to protect the living races. so if zod is destroyed she would likely just go asleep in the lifestream until another threat to the living races comes along.

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Originally Posted by dragoelete

not neccesarily hyds purpose is first and foremost to protect the living races. so if zod is destroyed she would likely just go asleep in the lifestream until another threat to the living races comes along.

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My personal preferred way for this story to end would be for Zodiark to be convinced that the planet He was made to protect is better off being allowed to develop on its own. Both Zodiark and Hydaelyn, having no reason to keep fighting and their purposes complete for now, sleep until when/if they're needed.

Would also make for a cool, final Ultimate fight against both of them as a proof the planet and the future are safe in mankind's hands. Could include other past bosses as adds and have phases based on the various calamities and the terminus.

But that's a pipe dream.

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Originally Posted by Sakei

I take the encounter to mean the opposite. Emet-Selch was friends with Hythlodaeus. He mentions this at the start of the conversation. I don't believe that Emet-Selch was friends with the WoL/WoD. I think he finally recognizes who we really are only after joining with Ardbert. I am thinking that the Hythlodaeus shade could recognize the warrior of light/Darkness even though it was only faintly because he was good friends with the WoL/WoD. He does say goodbye addressing you as his new, old friend. I think that Hythlodaeus was a mutual friend of Emet-Selch and the WoL/WoD. He had a stray thought in his creation magic remembering his old friend that had more of the real Hythlodaeus shine through than Emet-Selch ever intended.

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Well, i don't agree

I play in french, so it's not exactly the same as the english dialog, and it could be an error in traduction. But in french Hythlodaeus clearly say that Emet-Selch was fond the the original owner of our soul.

Ok guys who has the transcripts for when Hythlodaeus speaks to us in all languages. If you could post it please, I know I would be extremely happy.

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Originally Posted by Sakei

I take the encounter to mean the opposite. Emet-Selch was friends with Hythlodaeus. He mentions this at the start of the conversation. I don't believe that Emet-Selch was friends with the WoL/WoD. I think he finally recognizes who we really are only after joining with Ardbert. I am thinking that the Hythlodaeus shade could recognize the warrior of light/Darkness even though it was only faintly because he was good friends with the WoL/WoD. He does say goodbye addressing you as his new, old friend. I think that Hythlodaeus was a mutual friend of Emet-Selch and the WoL/WoD. He had a stray thought in his creation magic remembering his old friend that had more of the real Hythlodaeus shine through than Emet-Selch ever intended.

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Well yes its kinda a bit open to interpretation but maybe all were friends? The shade to him and us and maybe Emet to us too. Otherwise his reaction at seeing the 14th at the rejoining with Ardbert would be a bit strange. If we are not his friends why would he be so shocked? If he did not like the 14th wouldnt he be more hateful instead of trying to tell himself that it cant be that way?

@Kallera: Yes she was summoned as a enemy against Zodiark but first we dont even know if we ever truly kill Zodiark (because that would mean that he broke free which means that at least one whole shard was again lost and a huge calamity has taken place on the source..and seemingly it takes quite some time to prepare both shard and source for this). Maybe this story will end with us just taking out Elidibus. Without him another ascian cant be raised into the position thus the threat should be over. But Zodiark is still kept sleeping, Hydaelyn will keep him in check and the spoken races will finally be able to really live their lifes without Ascians planning horrible stuff all the time.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Well yes its kinda a bit open to interpretation but maybe all were friends? The shade to him and us and maybe Emet to us too. Otherwise his reaction at seeing the 14th at the rejoining with Ardbert would be a bit strange. If we are not his friends why would he be so shocked? If he did not like the 14th wouldnt he be more hateful instead of trying to tell himself that it cant be that way?

@Kallera: Yes she was summoned as a enemy against Zodiark but first we dont even know if we ever truly kill Zodiark (because that would mean that he broke free which means that at least one whole shard was again lost and a huge calamity has taken place on the source..and seemingly it takes quite some time to prepare both shard and source for this). Maybe this story will end with us just taking out Elidibus. Without him another ascian cant be raised into the position thus the threat should be over. But Zodiark is still kept sleeping, Hydaelyn will keep him in check and the spoken races will finally be able to really live their lifes without Ascians planning horrible stuff all the time.

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Yeah, because that’s exactly what we did with the warring triad, right? Left them alone.... :3

You are still having a god manipulating the people of the world, complete with the compatriots being given ascian like power. I still think team neither is the way to go here if one were to truly put the reins of history out of the gods’ hands. This is probably the first time the in game characters had a moment to question Hydaelyn’s motives and the benefits of keeping her in power.

The way Elidibus was talking on the moon sounded like there was a threat to more than just the Ascians that Hydaelyn is keeping concealed. It is not like he’s not trying to convince anyone up there.

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

They did have alteration as part of their abilities, was part of the very same quest as the one you were told that even the slightest distractions or errant thought alters the results. In case you forgot we literally put a living creature in a bag and handed it to the guy who was to give us the robe concept who promptly turned it into a crystal with the robes concept included for you to make your robes.

Which outright debunks your assertion they did not have alteration.

The Ascians are the bad guys because they are going against the very wishes of their own people who wanted to keep moving forward instead of stagnating and sticking to the past. This point of view was actively shown in side quests. The very same kind of people who probably summoned Hydaelyn because others wanted to use Zodiark to shackle everyone to being obedient tempered drones of Zodiark and to the past, instead of trying to look to the future in a post calamity world.

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It's not alteration, the creature was used as an aether battery to use a fuel source for the robe creation matrix from their library of stored creations, the quest explicitly tells you this.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Yeah, because that’s exactly what we did with the warring triad, right? Left them alone.... :3

You are still having a god manipulating the people of the world, complete with the compatriots being given ascian like power. I still think team neither is the way to go here if one were to truly put the reins of history out of the gods’ hands. This is probably the first time the in game characters had a moment to question Hydaelyn’s motives and the benefits of keeping her in power.

The way Elidibus was talking on the moon sounded like there was a threat to more than just the Ascians that Hydaelyn is keeping concealed. It is not like he’s not trying to convince anyone up there.

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If we did not go to the warring triad and if people did not try to break their seals we would not have needed to kill them. (Heck we might not have even found out about their existence). Also these three are still primals summoned by split people. There could be a difference between those. She is also not really manipulating the world. People with the echo are also not forced to work for her. Helping people survive certain attacks or hopeing that some might fight against the Ascians who wants to kill us all is not manipulating or ruling our history. Most of the people dont even know she exits.

Of course Elidibus sees Hydealyn as a threat. He is tempered by Zodiark (and we dont have a confirmation that Hydealyn does that too) and lost another one of the complete Ascians.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

There could be a difference between those. She is also not really manipulating the world. People with the echo are also not forced to work for her. .

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She doesn't manipulate because she's light aspected. All her actions are passive.

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Originally Posted by Zackneifein

Well, i don't agree

I play in french, so it's not exactly the same as the english dialog, and it could be an error in traduction. But in french Hythlodaeus clearly say that Emet-Selch was fond the the original owner of our soul.

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Thank you for the input. That is a clear deviation from the English version. Some could see it, as you can read from the others as well, but it could only be implied in the English version. I love seeing these translation differences. Sometimes they can help you understand the intent better.

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Hythlodaeus: A stray thought would have been enough, "Hythlodaeus will realize the truth," for example. We were... close friends once, you see...

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This is the only mention of Friendship in English. As you can possibly see, the "we" is subjective. One could take it to mean the WoL, Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus, or just Hythlodaeus and Emet-Selch. For that matter, it could refer to Hythlodaeus and the WoL and not Emet-Selch.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Well yes its kinda a bit open to interpretation but maybe all were friends? The shade to him and us and maybe Emet to us too. Otherwise his reaction at seeing the 14th at the rejoining with Ardbert would be a bit strange. If we are not his friends why would he be so shocked? If he did not like the 14th wouldnt he be more hateful instead of trying to tell himself that it cant be that way?

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My interpretation from that encounter was that he didn't like us much before. I figured that Emet-Selch was just not very happy once he realized we were still causing him trouble in this incarnation too. He seems more frustrated than anything. It's like he has an equal that he knows he can't reason with. He thought he was free of this person, only to have him/her show up in front of him.

The Quote is:

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No... It can't be... Bah, a trick of the light. You are a broken husk, nothing more.

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For me, I think it works well for an enemy you though was long vanquished. I concede that it does work equally well for a friend.

I play in Japanese, but in Japanese it also says that Emet-Selch was deeply attached to the person from who the WoL did inherit his soul.

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エメトセルクも、（彼・彼女）には思い入れがあるだろうから

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The key world would be "思い入れ"

Sorry for helping revive an old thread, but after reading through ObsidianFire has brought up some great points.

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

So far, all primals we have fought only give back the aether they have absorbed when they are killed. Which suggests that if the Convocation of Thirteen really wanted those souls back (or at least free to be reborn most likely) they would have had to kill Zoidark, not provide him with even more aether down the line.

I can see non-tempered Ancients parsing that logic and realizing that the Convocation of Thirteen is essentially planning on sacrificing their progeny to Zodiark to hopefully get back the souls of the dead and deciding they did not like that plan. And so they came up with an entirely different operating system for a primal. One that while it did absorb aether when people died also automatically would give that aether up to be reborn again eventually.

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I think this is a compelling possibility and hope it's true (keeping in mind we don't actually know enough to confirm/deny most of the speculation here). We know that the Ascians who summoned Zodiark became tempered by him, and that they then supported this morally sketchy plan of sacrificing their children to Zodiark to bring back those previously sacrificed. At this point, the world was still not sundered so we have every reason to believe that the "new human life" would still be full-blown immortals, so I can't see how any Ascian would agree to this unless they were tempered. At best, it creates an endless cycle of sacrifices to Zodiark.

Then there's the issue of what the un-tempered summoners of Hydaelyn were trying to accomplish. After Shadowbringers, we can all agree that forcibly rejoining souls is the same as ending the lives of the reflections (we as the WoL don't have any memories from the first 7 rejoinings, so we can conclude that those once separate individuals are now gone). Applying this logic, sundering originally whole souls is just as bad, since the shards don't retain any memories of the original person. An explanation for why Hydaelyn did this was that it was necessary to stop Zodiark, even if it meant killing everyone except for Lahabrea, Emet-Selch, and Elidibus via sundering.

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

So I can see them summoning Hydaelyn already knowing they were going to be Sundered when she dealt with Zodiark. Even the Ancients who didn't help them summon Hydaelyn and ended up being Sundered would at least not get stuck in Zoidark but end up in the reincarnation cycle.

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This exactly. So now the situation stands: 75% of the original Ascians are trapped inside Zodiark; 25% minus 3 are shattered and are repeatedly reincarnated from the lifestream, in this way retaining something of their original immortality (WoL falls into this category); and then we have Laha/Emet/Elidibus. Maybe Emet was doing a bit of lying by omission and Hydaelyn didn't sunder anyone unwillingly. I have absolutely no evidence for this but maybe the remaining Ascians except those three agreed to being shattered and reincarnated.

Then the endgame becomes freeing the Ascians who were absorbed by Zodiark and letting them be reincarnated in the lifestream. Hopefully this happens when we defeat Zodiark for good. The one thing I haven't figured out with this theory is what will happen with the Rejoinings. We know that forced rejoining = bad but also that the original sundering was bad. Furthermore, WoL is already 9/14 rejoined and that more are coming is foreshadowed (Unukalhai). Would a peaceful Rejoining (this may be possible, but Emet & co. couldn't see it due to tempering) necessarily mean we obtain true immortality again? I don't want that but leaving things as they are where everyone on the Source is half rejoined doesn't exactly wrap things up nicely.

I'm hoping this isn't an us vs. them (Ascians) story. The new life on the shards are descended from them and we ourselves are basically all but confirmed to be a reincarnated piece of one.

It's fairly implausible for the WoL to remember past lives, let alone those of his split counterparts. Can you remember your past lives in real-life? Why should it work differently for the WoL? His Echo visions to date have always been of other people, not himself nor his former incarnations.

Given that Zodiark is a Primal, it's more likely the ancients souls (and aether) were fully devoured by Zodiark when it was summoned and it was a lie Zodiark told it's tempered followers about being able to resurrect the them. Remember once a summoned Primal is created, the aether used is gone and it feeds off the surrounding aether. So destroying Zodiark will not free those souls, as they should be gone for good, if Zodiark is held the same as modern Primals. My guess is the non-tempered ancients saw exactly this at the time with Zodiark and if Zodiark was allowed to continue to exist there would have been no life left on the planet, so they created Hydaelyn as a protector. It's worth noting while all signs in the story point to Zodiark being like the Beast Primals in it's creation, an idea given form as a summon, it's possible Hydaelyn is a transformed Primal like Shiva or thordan, an idea imbued into a living being. Which may explain why she is different from Zodiark and can exist without appearing to be feeding on the ambient aether after her initial transformation and why she behaves differently than most Primals.

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Originally Posted by Nightsword

Given that Zodiark is a Primal, it's more likely the ancients souls (and aether) were fully devoured by Zodiark when it was summoned and it was a lie Zodiark told it's tempered followers about being able to resurrect the them.

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Did Zodiark say he could do it? I know Emet said they were going to try, but not that Zodiark said he could.

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

Did Zodiark say he could do it? I know Emet said they were going to try, but not that Zodiark said he could.

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We were told that he had told his followers that he could do it but needed fuel for it, hence the sacrifice of the new life being needed.

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Originally Posted by Nightsword

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It's definitely possible that their aether was used up in averting the calamity/bringing back life to the star and they're gone for good. I guess then it boils down to the tempered Ascians becoming puppets of Zodiark who must be stopped, and their whole backstory was just meant for us to feel sorry for them. It does lessen the significance of us having once been an Ascian if there's nothing we can do for them, though.

Edit: Found this from Hythlodaeus' dialogue:

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The Council decided thus: we would nurture our world until it was bursting with vitality. Then, when the time was right, we would offer some portion of its living energy to Zodiark. In return, He would return to us those brethren whose souls had fed His strength.

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Seems suspicious. Given that this wasn't a case of wishful thinking with no basis and Zodiark was indeed working through his tempering to encourage something that couldn't happen, then we have a pretty clear cut Zodiark = bad, Hydaelyn = good story. It would be so ironic that Emet-Selch is named after the "Angel of Truth" from FFXII when he was being deceived the whole time.

Here's the real question: In what way is Emet-Selch wrong?

Consider the following:
- Humanity has never needed Ascian help to spawn wars. Most of the wars that have occurred on the Source were actually not the work of Ascians. Granted, they are always there in the background, but there have been plenty of known instances where people were quite willing to do the deed without the need for prodding from higher beings.
- Emet-Selch may not be wrong in treating current humanity as little more than gnats. The races that were created by the sundering haven't actually evolved at all from the get-go. Sure, they've adapted to new environments and come up with some interesting technology, but their aetheric and physical capabilities remain largely unchanged. Even most of their actual advanced technology--i.e. that which was/is employed by the Allagan and Garlean Empires, respectively--is at least partially a result of Ascian assistance.
- Consider the Ascian view. They are in effect literal gods that can do virtually anything they want - even reshape reality to suit their ends. An Ascian dealing with an ordinary hyur is about the equivalent of a real life human dealing with a lone fire ant that decided to sting them.
- Would the Rejoining be that bad? Probably not. People would be whole again, their original memories and identities restored. They would be free to live in a star-spanning Utopian society where concepts such as violence, vagrancy, destitution, hunger, sickness, and pain no longer have any presence or meaning. Everyone would exist in a state of parity, free to live out their lives joyfully creating whatever their hearts desire with their newfound (or technically newly restored) powers of creation.
- Is it truly wrong for someone to seek to regain so many things that were, at least from their perspective, unfairly taken away? To Emet-Selch, everything he sees serves as a constant reminder of what was lost when Hydaelyn smote Zodiark.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

- Humanity has never needed Ascian help to spawn wars. Most of the wars that have occurred on the Source were actually not the work of Ascians. Granted, they are always there in the background, but there have been plenty of known instances where people were quite willing to do the deed without the need for prodding from higher beings.

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The Ascians have been behind every major dominating civilization thus far from what we have found and created the situations that lead to every single major war that lead to cataclysmic destruction and rampant chaos. It can be argued that Humanity would naturally go to war with itself, but the Ancients were very much in a similar situation. They may have tried to avoid confrontation where they could and tried to keep disagreements in just debate but with them developing automata for the purpose of waging proxy wars for them, or various beasts that could be used for similar, they were not far off from winding up fighting each other like the "lesser" humanity. Not to mention the scale of conflict with just humanity fighting itself would not reach such cataclysmic results so easily.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

- Emet-Selch may not be wrong in treating current humanity as little more than gnats. The races that were created by the sundering haven't actually evolved at all from the get-go. Sure, they've adapted to new environments and come up with some interesting technology, but their aetheric and physical capabilities remain largely unchanged. Even most of their actual advanced technology--i.e. that which was/is employed by the Allagan and Garlean Empires, respectively--is at least partially a result of Ascian assistance.

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The logic behind Emet-Selch's dismissing of the current humanity is very much reminiscent of every other leader that has gone on a genocidal warpath and elevated their race up to being the best, those others are not his people so they are inferior and killing inferior beings not on your level does not constitute murder or genocide. While the races created by the sundering have actually evolved quite drastically from their Ancient roots. What does not help them is the fact the Ascians keep hitting the reset button every few hundred years with rejoinings.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

- Consider the Ascian view. They are in effect literal gods that can do virtually anything they want - even reshape reality to suit their ends. An Ascian dealing with an ordinary hyur is about the equivalent of a real life human dealing with a lone fire ant that decided to sting them.

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They are in effect just really powerful beings who had to summon a god to fix a problem that was very likely created by their own messing about with reality. If they were in effect literal gods then they would not have needed to summon forth a being they identify as a god to solve their problem. They would not have needed to sacrifice half of their remaining population to repair the world. They would have been able to stop the terminus themselves and repair the world themselves.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

- Would the Rejoining be that bad? Probably not. People would be whole again, their original memories and identities restored. They would be free to live in a star-spanning Utopian society where concepts such as violence, vagrancy, destitution, hunger, sickness, and pain no longer have any presence or meaning. Everyone would exist in a state of parity, free to live out their lives joyfully creating whatever their hearts desire with their newfound (or technically newly restored) powers of creation.

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Considering that when a soul enters into the lifestream it is stripped of all memory and identity then even if they were restored and all the rejoinings done they would have no memory and have to build new personalities. Only those possessing the Echo which prevents them from being wiped clean of their memories and personality would be able to get those memories back.

Not to mention, the world of the Ancients still had violence, vagrancy, destitution, hunger, sickness, and pain. They worked on tools for proxy wars and saw other city states as competitors. They suppressed personal expression in an effort to reduce confrontations as those less gifted seeing others expressing their gift could lead to murder out of jealousy (which was the entire point of that side quest to try to make robes btw).

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

- Is it truly wrong for someone to seek to regain so many things that were, at least from their perspective, unfairly taken away? To Emet-Selch, everything he sees serves as a constant reminder of what was lost when Hydaelyn smote Zodiark.

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The method he chose involves the slaughtering of everything his people sacrificed to rebuild to bring back his people who sacrificed themselves. It is literally spitting in the face of their sacrifice and tearing down everything they sacrificed for just to get them back. Which would have just lead to them sacrificing themselves again and the cycle repeating.

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

Snipped due to post size constraints.

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I had a wall-o-text typed up, but the 3000 character limit hamstrung me. I'll just shorten it to this:

There are no signs in-game or in other material that the Ascians were the ones to trigger the cataclysm that brought down their civilization. We know from in-game text and other official materials that they actually did have enough power to stop the cataclysm themselves - or would have, if its very nature hadn't been the direct cause of their powers going out of control. The resulting loss of control after hearing that sound was that ultimately necessitated the first summoning of Zodiark as they could not fix the problem themselves. Granted it was their own runaway powers after the fact that turned the sound from "huh, wth is this" to "oh crap, the world is ending".

While I concede that Emet-Selch wanting to kill all the things is spitting in the face of those who gave their lives, I do not believe it would restart the cycle. The world is already healed, after all. They only needed Zodiark to help with restoring it because it had been rendered completely incapable of even supporting life by the time the cataclysm abated. Fully rejoined Ascians would be able to populate the Source with new life themselves since it would still be able to support life this time.

The many sapient creatures resulting from the sundering legitimately have not evolved at all in the way the Ascians want to see. Their aetheric and physical capabilities have grown only as a direct result of the rejoinings carried out so far. The creatures failed to evolve on their own, unfortunately. While more intelligent than in the past, their technological achievements always seem to be traced back to the Ascians. Garlemald is copying Allag, and Allag got the bulk of its technology through Ascian involvement.

There really wasn't conventional conflict in the ancient Ascian civilization. Their "proxy wars" were more like chess games played through mindless creations incapable of making decisions, let alone feeling anything resembling pain - or feeling anything at all for that matter. There doesn't appear to be anything in-game or other materials that would suggest that their civilization included the impoverished or that there people were physiologically capable of becoming ill in the conventional sense. Indications are instead that they had a truly Utopian society until everything went to pot.

The majority of wars in the FFXIV timeline actually weren't the result of Ascians. A lot of the time it's just the "human" races having their petty disputes, crossing their collective blades, and going their separate ways after spouting a few platitudes back and forth. While most known cataclysms have been the work of Ascians, there are a few of those that came about through the hands of mankind as well.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

I had a wall-o-text typed up, but the 3000 character limit hamstrung me. I'll just shorten it to this:

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There is no character limit on edits, so when you type out your wall of text just cut a big chunk out of it so that the post goes through and then edit the post to put the rest back in. That is what I do for my posts.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

There are no signs in-game or in other material that the Ascians were the ones to trigger the cataclysm that brought down their civilization. We know from in-game text and other official materials that they actually did have enough power to stop the cataclysm themselves - or would have, if its very nature hadn't been the direct cause of their powers going out of control. The resulting loss of control after hearing that sound was that ultimately necessitated the first summoning of Zodiark as they could not fix the problem themselves. Granted it was their own runaway powers after the fact that turned the sound from "huh, wth is this" to "oh crap, the world is ending".

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With what we know of Ancient Creation Magic all it takes is a single errant through to completely alter a result. We also know that their first reaction to an obstacle is to try to use their creation magic to create a solution. Even without an unidentified sound, which since the calamity started in a far off city could be anything including the cry of a monster that had managed to reach the city outskirts from said far off city, anything can cause a mass panic leading to the same result. When people do not know what something is their own imaginations become their worst enemy, and when habit dictates you use an ability that creates what your imagination generates to solve a perceived problem then it is a disaster waiting to happen. Especially for children who have even less self control then adults do.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

While I concede that Emet-Selch wanting to kill all the things is spitting in the face of those who gave their lives, I do not believe it would restart the cycle. The world is already healed, after all. They only needed Zodiark to help with restoring it because it had been rendered completely incapable of even supporting life by the time the cataclysm abated. Fully rejoined Ascians would be able to populate the Source with new life themselves since it would still be able to support life this time.

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To recap half the population sacrificed to summon Zodiark to fix the laws. Half the remaining population sacrificed to restore the world and the life on it. Emet-Selch wanted to sacrifice all the life on the planet to bring back the people who sacrificed their lives to not only restore the planet but repopulate its life. Which would mean that those people would have to sacrifice themselves again to restore the life that Emet-Selch and the convocation just sacrificed to get them back. Which means Emet-Selch and the convocation need to sacrifice that life their people just sacrificed to get back to get back those who sacrificed themselves again.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

The many sapient creatures resulting from the sundering legitimately have not evolved at all in the way the Ascians want to see. Their aetheric and physical capabilities have grown only as a direct result of the rejoinings carried out so far. The creatures failed to evolve on their own, unfortunately. While more intelligent than in the past, their technological achievements always seem to be traced back to the Ascians. Garlemald is copying Allag, and Allag got the bulk of its technology through Ascian involvement.

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And Allag came after the third calamity. Who likely got a fair chunk of their technology from the civilization that ruled at the time before the second calamity which likely had a lot of Ascian involvement just like Allag and Garlemald. Again if the Ascians were not causing massive world wide calamities every couple hundred years there would have been a lot more development. Not to mention that necessity is the mother of invention, if permitted the new "lesser" Humanity could have produced far greater works then the Ancients ever did in order to improve their lot in life. Though they were never really given a chance since a calamity every couple hundred years.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

There really wasn't conventional conflict in the ancient Ascian civilization. Their "proxy wars" were more like chess games played through mindless creations incapable of making decisions, let alone feeling anything resembling pain - or feeling anything at all for that matter. There doesn't appear to be anything in-game or other materials that would suggest that their civilization included the impoverished or that there people were physiologically capable of becoming ill in the conventional sense. Indications are instead that they had a truly Utopian society until everything went to pot.

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Emet-Selch tried to make it look like a Utopian society but the comments of the Shades and the side quests you had to do painted things very differently. A Utopian society does not include the chance of being murdered for showing individuality by others jealous of you, or your creativity being stifled to work off of government approved patterns, or other cities being seen as competition to wage war with through proxies both unfearing machines and full on creatures that can feel pain.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

The majority of wars in the FFXIV timeline actually weren't the result of Ascians. A lot of the time it's just the "human" races having their petty disputes, crossing their collective blades, and going their separate ways after spouting a few platitudes back and forth. While most known cataclysms have been the work of Ascians, there are a few of those that came about through the hands of mankind as well.

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Every cataclysm has been the result of the Ascians for their rejoining plans. Every war has been to lead to the situation of the calamity happening. While some of the minor wars did not have ascian involvement, the major ones to further their goals were.

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

And Allag came after the third calamity. Who likely got a fair chunk of their technology from the civilization that ruled at the time before the second calamity which likely had a lot of Ascian involvement just like Allag and Garlemald. Again if the Ascians were not causing massive world wide calamities every couple hundred years there would have been a lot more development. Not to mention that necessity is the mother of invention, if permitted the new "lesser" Humanity could have produced far greater works then the Ancients ever did in order to improve their lot in life. Though they were never really given a chance since a calamity every couple hundred years.

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While I agree that the Ascians likely had their fingers in most, if not all major conflicts on the Source, I'm not sure it's such a sure thing that there would have been a lot more development without their interference. The Ascians don't cause Calamities on the Shards (at least, not until the one big Flood prior to Rejoining), which is why the ruins in Tempest were in such good shape, while they've long since been pulverized on the Source (stated as that reason by the MSQ, no less). And yet, the advancement of the folks on the First does not seem significantly beyond that of the Source.

I can't say for sure why that is, but I suspect that the relatively rapid recovery of civilization after each Calamity on the Source can probably ALSO be attributed to the Ascians. They need to prop their dominoes back up so they can knock them down again, after all!

I'm not sure if it's worth it to think too hard about whether Emet-Selch was right.

First, there's a lot of surrounding circumstances that complicates things: in what ways, exactly, are shattered individuals "worse" compared to whole ones? (everyone on the Source is now 7 times rejoined but there is no difference between the people we meet on the First like Runar and Lyna vs. our friends in Eorzea). What would life be like if we were rejoined? (was Amaurot really a utopia without Emet's rose-colored glasses?) Is creation magic just too dangerous to have and we should remain sundered, anyway? Do the sacrificed Ascians actually want to be revived?

If we ignore all of these issues then the question boils down to weighing the value of different lives against each other. Emet's moral dilemma is basically a more elaborate version of the "trolley problem with fat man." He values the lives of the sacrificed immortals more than everyone he would be killing to get them back - but these are innocent souls who don't deserve to die and would have gone on just fine if he didn't interfere. There's no definitive answer to this problem. I think we should be glad that it's just a game and call it a day.

My personal take is that deep down, Emet knew he was wrong, but he had gone way too far to turn back and had to lie to himself to keep going. That's why he died with a smile on his face.

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

without an unidentified sound, which since the calamity started in a far off city could be anything including the cry of a monster

Which would mean that those people would have to sacrifice themselves again to restore the life that Emet-Selch and the convocation just sacrificed to get them back.

Not to mention that necessity is the mother of invention, if permitted the new "lesser" Humanity could have produced far greater works then the Ancients ever did in order to improve their lot in life. Though they were never really given a chance since a calamity every couple hundred years.

Emet-Selch tried to make it look like a Utopian society but the comments of the Shades and the side quests you had to do painted things very differently. A Utopian society does not include the chance of being murdered for showing individuality by others jealous of you, or your creativity being stifled to work off of government approved patterns, or other cities being seen as competition to wage war with through proxies both unfearing machines and full on creatures that can feel pain.

Every cataclysm has been the result of the Ascians for their rejoining plans. Every war has been to lead to the situation of the calamity happening. While some of the minor wars did not have ascian involvement, the major ones to further their goals were.

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We have confirmation that the source of the sound was "deep within the planet". The only thing that began in a distant city was the Ascians beginning to lose control of their powers of creation. The effect was as much physiological as it was psychological. The sound itself caused the initial loss of control while their subsequent fears lead to the escalation. We don't have confirmation one way or the other as to what lead to the world's laws starting to come unwound. I'm willing to say it may well have been the runaway Ascian powers, but that would never have happened if that sound hadn't interfered with their normal functions.

Sacrificing most of the remaining life on the Source would not require the Ascians to sacrifice themselves over again once revived. As mentioned in a prior post, part of what Zodiark did was restore the planet's ability to support life. It was rendered an uninhabitable husk by the first cataclysm. With the Ascians themselves able to create new life, it would be a simple matter for them to repopulate the world with new species.

The Final Fantasy franchise has nevery really subscribed to the "human potential" trope. It consistently depicts us as weak willed and easily corrupted, oft times building ourselves up only to destroy ourselves outright. It also consistently depicts us in a sort of stasis wherein we never manage to evolve beyond a set point even when outsiders don't interfere. The heroes of most Final Fantasy stories are forced to draw upon something beyond human to defeat their foes. That is mostly what Emet-Selch appears to be looking at. He doesn't care about their technological development at all. What he cares about is how close they can come to regaining the powers they lost while retaining their fragmented states. He really was telling the truth about changing his tune if satisfied with the WoL's potential. It's entirely possible he'd have kept his word and changed his tune if that same scenario played out after one more successful rejoining. After all, the WoL was able to control all the power he absorbed from the lightwardens once Ardbert gave up his individuality to initiate a one-person joining.

The side-quests do shine light on the less-than-great aspects of Ascian society, but that does not necessarily disqualify it from Utopian status. None of those quests appeared to indicate that there was any form of poverty or sickness, though I'll grant you that they were pretty strict on keeping things like jealousy to a minimum. The unfortunate reality is that a Utopian society is actually never going to exist outside of fiction specifically for the reason demonstrated there: emotion. The only possible way to maintain a Utopian society, assuming the Ascians had the same volatile nature and emotional range of the lesser creatures their destruction spawned, would be to take steps to prevent things such as jealousy and covetousness. Now obviously I'm not saying that's right by our societal standards, but it's important to remember that not every civilization works the same. Our morality is not necessarily their morality. I do not, however, recall any of the quest text saying they would kill you for being creative. As for competition, their competition with other cities was always kept pretty civil from what we've pieced together so far. There was no evidence to my knowledge to indicate that they were using their sentient creations ot fight for them. Indeed, much of the text you can find on the subject asserts that they are very kind and compassionate toward sentient beings they've made. They apparently even had laws dictating how living beings--even created ones--were to be treated within their society. Only non-sentient entities were used for non-verbal conflict resolution.

Not all destructive events in the Source's history have lead to or even contributed to rejoinings. There have been plenty of instances where people went to war on their own terms without any input from the Ascians. Some of these wars even escalated to the point that the land itself was being damaged. There are also at least two instances of Ascian-induced cataclysms being much worse than they were intended specifically because of humanity's propensity for violence.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

The writing was fine, as far as I see it. Emet-Selch made for a very compelling antagonist and the Ascians, as some of us have been saying for years, had goals that were beyond simple villainy for the sake of villainy. Given how impressive their society and powers happened to be it isn't a huge shock that those remaining would wish to see it restored at any cost. Especially when they're practically immortal and have felt the loss and isolation of outliving every single person they used to know and care for.

Hydaelyn being a Primal makes her a major threat and I hope we end up taking both Hydaelyn and Zodiark down at some point in the future. That way the reins of history are placed firmly in the hands of man rather than dictated by false deities.

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I think you inhaled to much of the Ascian philosophy and mixed it with an absolutist point of view without knowing the other sides story.Until thats known your judgment and logic will remain clouded.

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Originally Posted by kidalutz

I think you inhaled to much of the Ascian philosophy and mixed it with an absolutist point of view without knowing the other sides story.Until thats known your judgment and logic will remain clouded.

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Is it clouded, though? This is probably what SE wanted. There is enough moral relativism at play to really get the proverbial wheel turning. Currently extant races just want to survive, the Ascians want to save their own people, and Zodiark and Hydaelyn are basically just two sides of the same coin. We are to Ascians as ants are to us so it's really not hard to understand why they would have such a low opinion of humanity. After all, we don't bat an eyelash when we get rid of an ant colony that's been impeding us in some way.

What we do know is that Hydaelyn was not necessarily right in what she did. Her act of genocide was every bit as vile and savage as the one the Ascians intended to perpetrate to bring back those that sacrificed themselves to save their world. It could potentially be much a much worse act than it currently appears if it turns out that evidence indicating Zodiark's creations to have never been sapient in the first place turns out to be completely accurate.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

This is probably what SE wanted. There is enough moral relativism at play to really get the proverbial wheel turning. Currently extant races just want to survive, the Ascians want to save their own people, and Zodiark and Hydaelyn are basically just two sides of the same coin.

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Moral relativism = there is no universal moral truth, whether something is right or wrong depends only on your culture or time period. I personally think that's a ridiculous stance to take, as some things are clearly, unequivocally wrong.

If only one side can win while the other gets destroyed, no, I don't want both sides to have equally compelling reasons for what they're doing. That's tragedy. I'd prefer it if the heroes were doing the right thing after all. But also that the Ascians and Emet get proper closure.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

What we do know is that Hydaelyn was not necessarily right in what she did. Her act of genocide was every bit as vile and savage as the one the Ascians intended to perpetrate to bring back those that sacrificed themselves to save their world.

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Agreed that Sundering is genocide if it was done unwillingly. We still don't know what exactly happened back then, though.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Is it clouded, though? This is probably what SE wanted. There is enough moral relativism at play to really get the proverbial wheel turning. Currently extant races just want to survive, the Ascians want to save their own people, and Zodiark and Hydaelyn are basically just two sides of the same coin. We are to Ascians as ants are to us so it's really not hard to understand why they would have such a low opinion of humanity. After all, we don't bat an eyelash when we get rid of an ant colony that's been impeding us in some way.

What we do know is that Hydaelyn was not necessarily right in what she did. Her act of genocide was every bit as vile and savage as the one the Ascians intended to perpetrate to bring back those that sacrificed themselves to save their world. It could potentially be much a much worse act than it currently appears if it turns out that evidence indicating Zodiark's creations to have never been sapient in the first place turns out to be completely accurate.

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again dont have the whole story we just have half the story.

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Originally Posted by Kokomi

Moral relativism = there is no universal moral truth, whether something is right or wrong depends only on your culture or time period. I personally think that's a ridiculous stance to take, as some things are clearly, unequivocally wrong.

If only one side can win while the other gets destroyed, no, I don't want both sides to have equally compelling reasons for what they're doing. That's tragedy. I'd prefer it if the heroes were doing the right thing after all. But also that the Ascians and Emet get proper closure.

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Therein lies the conundrum. It's becoming increasingly apparent that this is may no longer be the matter of good vs. evil that some people would like for it to be, and I personally hope SE continues the course on this. I find the story much more compelling now that I know the Ascians may have had a good reason for what they were trying to do. There are times when tragedy is preferable to a very cut and dry "you're wrong, we're right" kind of story. I will find the end of ShB much more interesting if we do indeed find that Hydaelyn and her summoners are just as guilty as Emet-Selch and his ilk.

All that said, I do agree that certain things are unequivocally wrong - from our perspective. I know it's a common trope for alien races to inexplicably adhere (sometimes loosely) to human standards, but we've little reason to believe this would actually be the case. Our morals are shaped by our environment. The Ascians are definitely alien in mindset, physiology, and sheer power, so it's pretty easy for me to imagine their moral standards are not the same as ours. That's not to say they haven't been warped by their ages of sorrow - Emet-Selch himself makes it readily apparent that they have.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

There are times when tragedy is preferable to a very cut and dry "you're wrong, we're right" kind of story. I will find the end of ShB much more interesting if we do indeed find that Hydaelyn and her summoners are just as guilty as Emet-Selk and his ilk.

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I feel bad enough that we had to kill Emet-Selch. No more please.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

The Ascians are definitely alien in mindset, physiology, and sheer power, so it's pretty easy for me to imagine their moral standards are not the same as ours.

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Sure, but that doesn't mean both moral standards are equally acceptable. Or if you're going the route of "they are just so different from us we can never understand them", then that's the end of the discussion.

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Originally Posted by Kokomi

Sure, but that doesn't mean both moral standards are equally acceptable. Or if you're going the route of "they are just so different from us we can never understand them", then that's the end of the discussion.

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Then what does decide which moral standard is more acceptable? That in and of itself would be making a judgment call based on morals. It's super easy to get drawn into circular thing with this sort of thing because of how fascinating it is, I find. In any case, I would say we can understand them to a point. It's obvious they're driven by the same range of emotions we are, though they do appear to have significantly more self-control most of the time. The disconnect comes into play once you introduce their sheer power, vast knowledge, and unlimited lifespans into the equation. There is no telling how those factors would alter perceptions. There's also no telling what kind of psychological damage watching the downfall of your entire civilization would cause.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Then what does decide which moral standard is more acceptable?

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Each individual person does. That's why ethics exists. I said it earlier, but I honestly don't know if Emet-Selch was right from a moral standpoint (part of it due to being a thorny moral dilemma, other part being we just don't have enough information, like how many Ascians are being brought back?). That makes me uncomfortable, so I'm hoping Square gives us an easy out where we find out that resurrecting the dead Ascians was impossible after all, or something like that.

What is relevant is that Emet-Selch's own people (and the same race as him) thought that whatever the Ascians were doing with Zoidark was wrong enough that they made an entirely different concept/primal/goddess to take Zoidark's place. Honestly, the conflict Emet-Selch is having isn't even with us or the current races. It's with the people who summoned Hydaelyn before the Star was ever Sundered. Only they are conveniently dead and reincarnated as a completely different race/kind of being by now.

If Emet-Selch and the Ascians' reasoning is "alien" to us and can't be understood by use because they are so different, then that same logic would go for the people who summoned Hydaelyn. But even then their reasoning for summoning Hydaelyn is explained to us. They thought the new life on the Planet that was born after Zoidark rejuvenated the Planet was worth not sacrificing to Zoidark to get the members of their own race back from Zoidark. Why they decided not to get those souls back at a cost and weather or not the Sundering was all part of of their plan for Hydaelyn is still up in the air. But that doesn't change that someone other then us with a much better understanding of the Ascians' position also decided that what they were doing wasn't right and took steps to change that. Which resulted in the world as it is now.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

The core question remains: Can we?

If the coup de grace to the Will of the Star sundered not only Him, but the world itself, into fourteen pieces, can we kill the current Will of the Star and keep the Lifestream as we know it? Would you seal the death warrant of mortal life in the terms we've fought for it all along just to spite Hydaelyn's history?

Perhaps this is a result of my bias - while I've remained open to the "kill all the gods with the power of friendship" route, declaring for #TeamHydaelyn as a player going through the story has been simply more fun, the same way it's been more fun to doubt Gaius's death or accept the Twelve are probably imaginary or poorly remembered Warriors of Light (Perhaps they were Hydaelyn's summoners!). As a result, "Kill Crystal Mom" is often my last resort while She continues to profess that She has our backs, loves Her children, and - above all - has proven time and time again for 12,000 years that if no one is rocking the boat, She goes to sleep and history belongs to man.

First things first, I want to see that She can be excised from the Lifestream and nothing meaningful will change for the inheritors of the planet.

If we can't guarantee that, it's not even on my table.

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It's interesting you put it like this because I interpreted the MSQ differently.

Hydaelyn, to me, seems like an aether leech at this point. As it stands, we have no confirmation (also correct me if wrong) that the lifestream as we know it existed before Hydaelyn sundered Zodiark and the Source. Upon doing so, the lifestream was created and all aether was separated between the 14 worlds. Hydaelyn seems to reside in the aetheral sea or "lifestream" as we know it. At this point, I am highly speculating that in liu of a lifestream a lot of the aether in the Amurotine's world was kept within it's people. It's huge 30ft people that can generate beings with their minds. That would take enormous amounts of aether/energy and they had it within themselves.

Getting back to the point and to put it bluntly, when you die, your aether goes to the lifestream where Hydaelyn sups on you for sustenance. Something has to sustain her or she'd cease to exist, no? Sure, you're inevitably reformed or reincarnated, perhaps even on the same shard as Emet-Selch points out being from the Source is very special and particular, but as it stands I don't really see a difference between mortals dying and going to aetherial sea and sacrifices to a primal. Either way, they are sustained off the aether of other beings.

Zodiark, at least from what has been revealed so far, appeared to require the sacrifices in order to fulfill the Amurotines wish to save their dying star. That makes sense to me as such a monumental task would require an insane amount of aether or energy and when the sacrifices were made he fulfilled his end. It was the Amurotines that chose to keep sacirificing to this primal, not the primal demanding it. They asked for things and Zodiark went "Well, give me the raw materials and I'll do it."

Because of this, I didn't see Zodiark as evil. He's...more like a computer program following tasks given. Hydaelyn could be the same perhaps. Her one rule being "Stop Zodiark from being used." Though she seems much more manupliative and and cunning in my opinion. It also concerns me greatly that she seemed to not care for the fate of the First until Minfilia was reabsorbed into the Lifestream. Hydaelyn either lacked the awareness or the capacity to care and this boggles me.

Either way, I will require a very compelling explaination from the MSQ to justify why Hydaelyn is a "good" being. At best I view her and Zodiark as tools that were misused, attempting to follow their individual protocol rules:

Zodiark: Ensure survival of star, Fulfill wishes of my summoners.
Hydaelyn: Stop Zodiark.

Anyway, if there are holes in my understanding please set them straight. I feel like I have a decent, if somewhat strangely interpreted handle on stuff.

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

This would only work if Zodiark (As the will of the star) existed before Emet-Selch claimed they created him. What you are doing in the dungeon were steps leading up to Zodiark's creation, so they couldn't have been started by him because he didn't exist yet. From my understanding, Zodiark did exactly what they hoped. He was created, and stopped the Calamity. Now it's possible that there was a true will of the star before Zodiark (Terminus, maybe?) that was causing the Calamity, but there's nothing showing that is the case.

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I actually think you're on to something and I thought it myself.

The NPCs in Amaurot discuss a "Cacophony" that is being heard across the world and suddenly causing the immortal beings to lose control of their creation magicks and manifest terrible monsters. The true villain, the thing we REALLY should wonder about is not the Ascians or Zodiark. It's whoever or whatever started this chain of events.

On a side note, I don't think it's a coincidence that this event was called a "Cacophony" and the Echo is named the Echo. I don't know what the correlation is exactly yet but...yeah. That's not an accident in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by WanderingStar

Getting back to the point and to put it bluntly, when you die, your aether goes to the lifestream where Hydaelyn sups on you for sustenance. Something has to sustain her or she'd cease to exist, no?

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If she ate everyone/everything that died, life would diminish to nothing eventually. Afaik aether from primals is not released until they are killed.

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Originally Posted by WanderingStar

I actually think you're on to something and I thought it myself.

The NPCs in Amaurot discuss a "Cacophony" that is being heard across the world and suddenly causing the immortal beings to lose control of their creation magicks and manifest terrible monsters. The true villain, the thing we REALLY should wonder about is not the Ascians or Zodiark. It's whoever or whatever started this chain of events.

On a side note, I don't think it's a coincidence that this event was called a "Cacophony" and the Echo is named the Echo. I don't know what the correlation is exactly yet but...yeah. That's not an accident in my opinion.

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I had made a (rather far-fetched, admittedly) bit of speculation in another thread about it, in regards to the initial cause. It was in regards to the Lifestream having not existed until after Zodiark and/or Hydaelyn had made the it (I've forgotten which it was).

The gist of it was, before the Lifestream, the souls of the dead Ancients didn't actually go anywhere. They ended up just sort of hanging around the planet, and just the effects of so much raw uncontrolled power eventually pushed things to the breaking point. The Lifestream forcibly channeled the souls somewhere, thus fixing the main issue.

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Originally Posted by WanderingStar

Hydaelyn, to me, seems like an aether leech at this point.

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I'm not saying this is wrong, but again, I've wondered; do Zodiark and Hydaelyn need a constant source of Aether, or, as creations of...Creation Magicks, are they not bound by the same rules that the Primals we know are?