Kicked from dungeon for not following the way others want you to play

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Originally Posted by Jennah

Looking on the Lodestone, OP is wearing 6 pieces of gear from the Aery and using the title Nidhogg Slayer ... so I guess there was a happy ending?
OP, if you read this - I expect the tank was correct that you were doing less damage than you could be.
If you were doing 80% of your possible damage, he was very much in the wrong to kick you. Below max level, any reasonable performance should be fine, and the most you should get if playing 'wrong' is some advice.
If you were doing 20% of your possible damage, he was very much in the right - it likely even would have been necessary to kick you to pass Nidhogg's dps check, if the other 3 players weren't skilled enough to cover for you.
It's also possible the tank (or you) was just being a jerk, and performance had nothing to do with the kick.

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I don't think lodestone is even a remotely accurate gauge. Because what you're seeing is not an absolute. I wear glams moreso than gear, so if someone were to look me up, they'd be thinking I went in with lv1's when really, it's far from the case.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

Simply put, you are using a random party formation feature in a game which matchs players of varying skill levels. This is a known going into content using duty finder. If a person expects and requires a certain level of play, make a pre-made.
Also, you would not know a dps player has output lower than a healer or tank without a dps meter..... which is against the ToS and simply given a blind eye.

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That does not give players carte blanche to do as they please. If the party decides someone isn't pulling their weight, they're allowed to dismiss said person.

And as noted above, you can easily tell if a DPS isn't AoEing while the healer is. Regardless, I don't have to specify a reason should I opt to kick someone. Hiding behind the notion we shouldn't use parsers is just an excuse to justify bad play. Keep in mind, I don't mean someone undergeared or new, but someone who clearly has no business queuing into level 70 dungeons when they can't perform even a basic rotation. That, in my opinion, is disrespectful. You aren't concerned with anyone else's time. Why should they be concerned with yours?

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Originally Posted by Crystal_Raven

There's a lot of variables here.

Your best try at good damage may ultimately be considered trash level damage. In which case if things don't die too fast, then other people will die, which means you have to revive if possible, which again, the fault comes back to you.

Perhaps you were just doing bad enough to warrant the team to replace you.

From past experiences, new summoner players that use garuda, more often than not they tend to do very very poorly. And their best is not even good enough to pass as acceptable in casual content. Without knowing both sides of the story, no one can really say exactly what happened and why you were kicked. You were most likely kicked from having extremely poor performance.

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New to the dungeon players, should in general not be kicked.

its also not true that in aerie 3 good players will die because of one sub optimal dps. If the whm was dying twice, there must have been multiple failures of play in the party. It may have been a prememptive kick, to make sure two of the other guys werent kicked, since the party as a whole wasnt doing that well.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

That does not give players carte blanche to do as they please. If the party decides someone isn't pulling their weight, they're allowed to dismiss said person.

And as noted above, you can easily tell if a DPS isn't AoEing while the healer is. Regardless, I don't have to specify a reason should I opt to kick someone. Hiding behind the notion we shouldn't use parsers is just an excuse to justify bad play. Keep in mind, I don't mean someone undergeared or new, but someone who clearly has no business queuing into level 70 dungeons when they can't perform even a basic rotation. That, in my opinion, is disrespectful. You aren't concerned with anyone else's time. Why should they be concerned with yours?

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aerie isnt a level 70 dungeon. And level 70 dungeons are required to progress the story. Scrub ornot scrub, everyone must beat dungeons to go through the story.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

AOEing large trash packs should be a standard even for randomly matched parties. But getting DPS to AOE is worse than pulling teeth it seems.

That said, if a healer is spamming Holy/Gravity/Miasma II while a DPS is single-targeting, you don't need a damage meter to know that the healer is pulling the weight here. It's simple math at that point.

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aerie does not need two aoe dps players in order to be completed in a reasonable time. This is a progression dungeon, and also a leveling dungeon. Its fine to be personally annoyed some one is playing sub optimally, but the reality is some one often going to be new/recent/gearing in this dungeon, since the entire point of the daily roulette is to match experienced players with newb players.

the roulette matches random players who beat the dungeon with players who specifically selected a dungeon.

So yeah you are using the roulette in bad faith if you arent making a serious attempt to work with players of various skill levels.

also, the party sounds like it had multiple points of failure. And the kick system is flawed. Its usually best to kick first if you have two people playing together and things are going wrong, because it assures no one else can kick your two man group.

its all we have to solve multiple problems, but it is pretty flawed. Hopefully the community as a whole does not actually start using it improperly, because they would probably have to adjust it if that becomes a problem in progression dungeons.

I use Garuda all the time and i never get kicked from anything.

This was probably just a rare occurrence.

Why, wouldnt you use Garuda over ifrit? More uptime on DoT ticks is Garudas beauty.

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Originally Posted by Physic

aerie does not need two aoe dps players in order to be completed in a reasonable time. This is a progression dungeon, and also a leveling dungeon. Its fine to be personally annoyed some one is playing sub optimally, but the reality is some one often going to be new/recent/gearing in this dungeon, since the entire point of the daily roulette is to match experienced players with newb players.

the roulette matches random players who beat the dungeon with players who specifically selected a dungeon.

So yeah you are using the roulette in bad faith if you arent making a serious attempt to work with players of various skill levels.

also, the party sounds like it had multiple points of failure. And the kick system is flawed. Its usually best to kick first if you have two people playing together and things are going wrong, because it assures no one else can kick your two man group.

its all we have to solve multiple problems, but it is pretty flawed. Hopefully the community as a whole does not actually start using it improperly, because they would probably have to adjust it if that becomes a problem in progression dungeons.

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It doesn’t matter if it’s a leveling dungeon or not. DPS get AOE skills fairly early on in the leveling process—even earlier on during the MSQ process. The only DPS that do not have an AOE by level 30 are DRG and NIN, which get them by level 42 (though NIN does have Katon by level 35, so they at least have something they should use at 2+ mobs, since it’s a gain over Fuma at that point and the GCD clip doesn’t matter that much in leveling content).

By the time a players is in Heavensward and level 55~56, they should know to use their AOEs in any pull with 3+ mobs. There is no excuse for it. Being new does not excuse it. If someone tells you that you should be AOEing trash pulls that are 3 mobs or more, you should AOE.

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Originally Posted by Physic

aerie does not need two aoe dps players in order to be completed in a reasonable time. This is a progression dungeon, and also a leveling dungeon. Its fine to be personally annoyed some one is playing sub optimally, but the reality is some one often going to be new/recent/gearing in this dungeon, since the entire point of the daily roulette is to match experienced players with newb players.

the roulette matches random players who beat the dungeon with players who specifically selected a dungeon.

So yeah you are using the roulette in bad faith if you arent making a serious attempt to work with players of various skill levels.

also, the party sounds like it had multiple points of failure. And the kick system is flawed. Its usually best to kick first if you have two people playing together and things are going wrong, because it assures no one else can kick your two man group.

its all we have to solve multiple problems, but it is pretty flawed. Hopefully the community as a whole does not actually start using it improperly, because they would probably have to adjust it if that becomes a problem in progression dungeons.

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If they're unable to AoE groups, most likely they won't be able to deal with Sable Price at the last boss.

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Originally Posted by kidalutz

Why, wouldnt you use Garuda over ifrit? More uptime on DoT ticks is Garudas beauty.

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Are you refering to Contagion? SE changed that...

My English is kinda bad. But thanks to everyone who answered ... I already thought about what happened and managed to complete the dungeon with other people. As for the subject, I already did several dungeons playing the same way and nobody had said anything. I did not offend the person for giving me "Tips" just said that I preferred to play that way. It was not something like "I'm going to play the way I want" It was another situation for the member to say "You're going to end up spending a lot of mp" And I respond by saying "I have ways to recover my mp do not worry". But he still insisted on it. Hinting is a good thing, but when it becomes something insistent it becomes a bit abusive. Anyway, as I said thank you to everyone, I do not know to exclude topic ... (HAHA) But I've calmed down.

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Originally Posted by Cayalle

My English is kinda bad. But thanks to everyone who answered ... I already thought about what happened and managed to complete the dungeon with other people. As for the subject, I already did several dungeons playing the same way and nobody had said anything. I did not offend the person for giving me "Tips" just said that I preferred to play that way. It was not something like "I'm going to play the way I want" It was another situation for the member to say "You're going to end up spending a lot of mp" And I respond by saying "I have ways to recover my mp do not worry". But he still insisted on it. Hinting is a good thing, but when it becomes something insistent it becomes a bit abusive. Anyway, as I said thank you to everyone, I do not know to exclude topic ... (HAHA) But I've calmed down.

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I really don't want to attack you but can we know what skill you were using? I play Summoner quite often and I am rather confused which skill you might be repeating for someone to think that... If it's Ruin III, you definitely should be using it and the person was wrong. But if it's like... tri-bind... that only has a use when in Dreadwyrm Trance.

I was using miasma + bio II + Bane, then I used Ruin III + Ruin II ... On target, then the tank started talking about that I should only use Ruin III because of mp consumption. I understood what he meant by that, but as I said ... I really had how to recover my mp, it's not like I used such combinations until my mp reached zero. I think he could have understood that.

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Originally Posted by Cayalle

I was using miasma + bio II + Bane, then I used Ruin III + Ruin II ... On target, then the tank started talking about that I should only use Ruin III because of mp consumption. I understood what he meant by that, but as I said ... I really had how to recover my mp, it's not like I used such combinations until my mp reached zero. I think he could have understood that.

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Ideally, Ruin III is better unless you are wanting to weave in an oGCD (like Fester or Painflare), then you would use Ruin II. The reason for this is Ruin III is a higher potency (120 potency) versus Ruin II (100 potency). Less an MP thing, as Ruin II is commonly used in a SMN rotation because of the amount of oGCD weaving they do. So you should mostly be doing Ruin III > Ruin III > Ruin III > ad nauseam unless you are weaving or have to move (Ruin II is good for movement).

The Miasma > Bio II > Bane is correct. You could also weave in a Shadow Flare afterwards. Something like this would be an effective rotation (that works on both single-target and AOE): Miasma > Bio II > Bane > Ruin II > Shadow Flare > Ruin III > Ruin II > Fester > Ruin II > Painflare > etc. Keep both DoTs up, and use your Aetherflow stacks, refreshing them every 60 seconds. If your pets are on Obey, don’t forget to also toggle their abilities, use Rouse so that they get a 40% damage buff, and use Enkindle for them to use their “mini Ultimate”. These abilities can also be weaved in after Ruin II casts.

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Originally Posted by Cayalle

I was using miasma + bio II + Bane, then I used Ruin III + Ruin II ... On target, then the tank started talking about that I should only use Ruin III because of mp consumption. I understood what he meant by that, but as I said ... I really had how to recover my mp, it's not like I used such combinations until my mp reached zero. I think he could have understood that.

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They are sorta right there, for a while, I used Ruin II after Ruin III to sorta tack some extra damage on but, the cost does add up. Not enough to run you dry or anything, it's just you're not getting a good trade, not enough damage for how much MP you're putting in. Plus I believe you actually end up losing DPS in the long run as the time spent with the tacked on Ruin II casts can add up to costing you several casts of Ruin III.

Not telling you how to play or anything, ultimately up to you. Just offering my thoughts. I could be wrong though and welcome somebody with a better understanding of the math to correct me if I am wrong.

EDIT! Also, everything Hyo said. She's smart when it comes to optimizing stuff.

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Originally Posted by Gula

I don't think lodestone is even a remotely accurate gauge. Because what you're seeing is not an absolute. I wear glams moreso than gear, so if someone were to look me up, they'd be thinking I went in with lv1's when really, it's far from the case.

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lmao it means they successfully got through the dungeon, what are you on about?

Hyo's right on the ball about using Ruin II. Because it triggers your global cooldown, it's really not a good one to follow up Ruin 3 with unless you got something else to weave in that's off the Global Cooldown like Fester or Pain Flare.

Don't sweat it, I used to do it too. I think a lot of new Summoner's play with that combo for a bit before they make the connection it actually hurts them until they weave something else in.

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Originally Posted by Cayalle

I was just having fun in the campaign quest that takes me to the dungeon "The Aery" (It was the campaign quest that unlocks the mount). There I started playing the same way I always did, always trying to do a good damage with my skill's ... Until the tank started telling me how I should play as a summoner, I should not use the skill's combination because it was for him it was a mp perch. I understand that these people coming from the high level have a certain problem with beginners. But until then I played 60 levels and that was the way I found playing and I like to use Garuda and not Ifrit. I do not care about extreme content, I just wish I had continued in the dungeon and not get kicked because I have to play the way somebody else wants. I resuscitated the healer twice and the tank still continued to talk about my way of attacking...Until he and his "party" buddy got me out of the dungeon.

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If your story checks out, just shake it off and move on. Been playing this game from the beginning and I personally have never came across this, and if it does oh well. Not going to let it ruin my day nor will I lump all high players in this category either. People can be jerks in game and in real life. How you choose to carry this is on you :)

Now what I do experience quite a bit is when someone is nice and offer advice and the new player gets all offended. Actually, I see that way too much. This is one reason why people in game get off put on trying to help newer players.

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Originally Posted by Coatl

I'm having a hard time believing they kicked you because you were using garuda instead of ifrit.

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There are people that are that petty. That I don't find hard to believe. I've seen people kick someone for nothing more than their glamour.

But it's always hard to tell if someone's complaint about being kicked is valid or not, since we never have the full story.

To the OP: All you can do is report them. If they did indeed abuse the kick system, they will get a warning (or suspension if they've already been warned).

Got kicked few days ago in ghimlit dark for no reason, i did pretty good damage as smn, also we didnt talk anything with each other, or anyone went afk, we came to the 2nd boss, then they just vote kicked me for no reason

I just fired a report for a whole team, few minutes later GM contact me for detail, SE did pretty good to manage that kind of abuse i think

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Originally Posted by ShariusTC

Got kicked few days ago in ghimlit dark for no reason, i did pretty good damage as smn, also we didnt talk anything with each other, or anyone went afk, we came to the 2nd boss, then they just vote kicked me for no reason

I just fired a report for a whole team, few minutes later GM contact me for detail, SE did pretty good to manage that kind of abuse i think

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They take this sort of thing very seriously, along with general player behavior. I had a really bad World of Darkness run back in ARR where a few players from another alliance (I don't know which they were in, I just know it wasn't mine) were being obnoxious and swearing left and right and being downright inappropriate. I ended up filing a report against the lot of them who were apparently in an FC together.

Normally I don't really care what people say to a degree and keep to myself, but they were just so...intolerable. They really were. And they didn't stop from beginning to end. A GM contacted me within an hour and wanted details, which I gave them to the best of my ability. They thanked me for my time and that was that.

Did anything ever come of it? I have no idea, but they at least looked into the situation. People might not think they do enough or that they punish people for no reason, but if there's a report being filed and it has some credibility, they are on those reports in a timely manner. I don't recall ever hearing of anyone being wrongfully accused and subsequently punished in game. First time I've heard of it has been on the forums.

What is the Summoner equivalent of the Ice mage?

I had a raider friend who got a warning from a GM, because he accidentally linked a "moogle" macro in an alliance raid. It wasn't offensive at all. It was just like 5-6 lines uf burly moogles drawn with text. After his slap on the wrist from a GM he was always paranoid about doing anything like that again.

This post specifically, is what triggered me to create my post about kicking people for bad gear. Because I wasn't sure if it was actually mentioned at all in this thread. But you can absolutely get kicked for bad and/or missing gear.

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Originally Posted by MrKimper

What is the Summoner equivalent of the Ice mage?

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Ruin spam with pet on sic ?

Garuda and Ifrit doing roughly the same damage. In the old days ifrit was number one but that changed because of the nerf/ changes of some egi skills. It only matters in the ex and savage part of the game. The only reason to kick someone is because of a titan egi.
At that level you only manage your debuffs und aether stacks. So no micro management of the egi and such.
Weird but if the others agreed to kick you. Blacklist them and done.

I'm pretty sure ifrit is higher damage slightly, not enough that someone should get kicked from a dungeon.
Garuda does have the ability to increase magic damage taken that would be good for a dungeon with a lot of casters though.

By the time I started learning about summoner I was already 70 in the class, because I play SCH - so I'm not really sure about the mid/low content at all. At the high end content, I believe the summons are switched out for each other regularly.

I'm trying to scratch my head around this but it feels like we aren't getting the whole story, or something is really off.

Unless the other dps in a dungeon is a physical, garuda is is the higher dps anyway. Contaigion increases magic damage dealt to the target. Ifrit's radiant shield was nerfed a patch or two ago to only apply a physical vuln debuff. It USED to have a counter-attack like Warrior's vengeance CD, but they took that away.

As someone who loves Summoner, I find myself using Garuda most of the time since she augments my healer's ability to DPS and it augments my own. Not to mention it buffs garuda's damage as well.

Ifrit's damage is only like... 2-3% more since he also auto-attacks.

This whole debate is moot in a few weeks since Shadowbringers is giving them new roles. Garuda is going to become and aoe bot and ifrit is going to be the single target one. Then lastly Titan is the special one on the block once again.

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Originally Posted by Cayalle

I was just having fun in the campaign quest that takes me to the dungeon "The Aery" (It was the campaign quest that unlocks the mount). There I started playing the same way I always did, always trying to do a good damage with my skill's ... Until the tank started telling me how I should play as a summoner, I should not use the skill's combination because it was for him it was a mp perch. I understand that these people coming from the high level have a certain problem with beginners. But until then I played 60 levels and that was the way I found playing and I like to use Garuda and not Ifrit. I do not care about extreme content, I just wish I had continued in the dungeon and not get kicked because I have to play the way somebody else wants. I resuscitated the healer twice and the tank still continued to talk about my way of attacking...Until he and his "party" buddy got me out of the dungeon.

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So sorry you had to run into that kind of players that is the kind of attitude that will destroy this MMO community to the core the unwelcoming hostility to recently joined players.

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Originally Posted by Reap00

Report them with the chat log. SE will take care of them.

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reporting isnt the answer to everything. just let it go and move on

Those type of players represent a very small portion of the playerbase.

I hope you found a better party the next time you queued.

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Originally Posted by guardin

reporting isnt the answer to everything. just let it go and move on

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Nope, but it is in that case

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Originally Posted by Reap00

You should keep your opinions to yourself. If you queue with duty finder you have a chance of joining players that won't play up to your apparently lofty standards. If you don't like it queue with your other elitist friends. I would report you in a half a second if you were in my group.

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There's a fine line to that.

I was in a dungeon .. the library one, where we had a BLM that flat out refused to use AoE spells. Just, and I kid you not .. single target Fire spells. At first we honestly thought they were a bot because they said nothing and moved so autonomously (sp). After we commented more, the player spoke up and essentially said "I don't feel like using AoEs so f-off". We kicked them out of the duty because they were blatantly slowing progress down and overall being detrimental to the entire party's fun.

There is a difference between a player who is new to a class and one who flat out refuses to use what they have to assist the group. It's not just you in a group. So yes, I agree that if a player is intentionally hampering everyone with their particular playstyle, I will speak up. If they refuse to change or are blatanly rude, they should be kicked. How about they find others that do that and group up?