Going on 2 hours of radio silence after logging in to find my character in GM jail

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Meanwhile, there are botters on my server that have been reported several times throughout the entirety of this expansion who were never punished. Clearly, only some things against the ToS take priority.

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To be fair if one of them said “yeah I’m running a bot on this account so what?” I’m sure they would be banned

It's unfortunate, but rules are rules. 10 days seems kind of excessive for what I would consider a minor offense though. We also might not have the full story but I didn't get that vibe from the OP.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

To be fair if one of them said “yeah I’m running a bot on this account so what?” I’m sure they would be banned

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They don't have to really say anything. I wish the STF would monitor suspected botters, because watching the gathering bots for a few moments makes it really obvious they're using a script. And if they checked the logs and saw a crafter crafting nonstop for 24+ hours, it's fairly obvious there's not a person behind that character at the moment. I've even seen the botters on my server in Eureka. But reports don't mean anything, it seems...

As I said before, I don't think this scenario is entirely black and white. Devs have implied they know we use these programs and intentionally turn a blind eye, but someone reported and punished for another player asking for logs to be uploaded with no evidence of actual harassment just seems silly. In addition to the 10-day ban for a first offense and the locked in the Gaol for hours on end...

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

I thought they only punished for this if the numbers were used for harassment?

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Someone can probably link you the video. But SE stance is, we don't see it you are ok. Not a harassment issue, it's a violation issue. That is why everyone says "Don't mention in game". It gives the GM a reference on where to check logs even if it is a tell.

So wait a minute, do you really just lose out of 10 days playtime? Because if what you said is 100% all that happened that seems rather excessive and I would be steaming mad if that were me in that situation!

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

Break the ToS and get nuked, this isn't wow.

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If OPs story is totally true, then yeah... this is WORSE customer service than anything I ever experienced in WoW, lmao.

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Originally Posted by Moonlite

Someone can probably link you the video. But SE stance is, we don't see it you are ok. Not a harassment issue, it's a violation issue. That is why everyone says "Don't mention in game". It gives the GM a reference on where to check logs even if it is a tell.

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This whole thing is very silly. "We know you use this, but if you don't say you use it, we'll pretend you aren't." So which is it? Do they care, or don't they? Seems like it'd be way easier to just let people use them - or heck, provide one for us - and then focus on enforcing harassment reports, than to have this whole sneaky-sneaky don'taskdon'ttell BUT WAIT IF U GET CAUGHT!! nonsense be the norm.

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Originally Posted by Moonlite

Someone can probably link you the video. But SE stance is, we don't see it you are ok. Not a harassment issue, it's a violation issue. That is why everyone says "Don't mention in game". It gives the GM a reference on where to check logs even if it is a tell.

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Here's the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-WX...youtu.be&t=370

However, it partly depends on the GM. Some won't pursue you unless you do harass people, some will get you just for a mention. So to be safe, do as Yoshida says in the video and just don't talk about it.

This is rather excessive, you weren't using it to harass anyone, you broke the rules by using and advocating third party tools, but you weren't hurting anyone, a warning would be more than sufficient, a 3 day ban at the absolute most.

To leave you in the gaol for hours, ignore your questions and issue a 10 day ban is far too much.

using a 3rd party software is always that level of ban, i believe. technically, its probably the same offense as botting.


Also, many times, people who talk about bans on forums are not being completely accurate, as to what the nature of the offense is. Lets say this guy was botting the marketboard, do you think he would tell everyone? If he was harrassing? Also, publicly uploading player's performances who dont want to be uploaded, allows others to harrass them. The rules are the rules regardless

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Originally Posted by Physic

using a 3rd party software is always that level of ban, i believe. technically, its probably the same offense as botting.


Also, many times, people who talk about bans on forums are not being completely accurate, as to what the nature of the offense is. Lets say this guy was botting the marketboard, do you think he would tell everyone? If he was harrassing? Also, publicly uploading player's performances who dont want to be uploaded, allows others to harrass them. The rules are the rules regardless

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The rules are indeed the rules. They are not however a divine decree from the heavens. Perhaps the rules should be changed? It seems to myself (along with several others) that this incident was incredibly unfair.

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Originally Posted by Jollyy5

It's also terrible than when you do get pulled into the gaol, there is no communication or any kind of an attempt to gain an understanding on what had happened, the GMs just throw in some copy-paste crap and then give you a punishment based on how they are feeling on that particular day, and those strikes never go away either as far as I'm aware.

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Yep, I am an convict, too. Something I really regret, but I was really in a self-destructable phase and did not care. What did I do? I went AFK several times, e.g. in Haukke, sat onto the sofa in the lobby hall and chatted. Full deserved ban and reformed by the way.

I got pulled into the jail and had a chat with a GM. They are not bad or ill-minded, but sure you can have a chance to get a proper a-hole. I've seen on U.S. servers that the GMs act like U.S. cops, intimidating and all. Not so in my case.



Another fun fact: The GMs can (or could) not pull you into the Goal when you were in your inn room. I was in my inn room in Gridania when I got busted, and suddenly loaded into the inn main room. Right that moment, a duty popped up and the GM could not pull me into jail because of the duty finder match "Commence/withdraw" window. So even game-internal processes, such as a found duty, forces the Game Masters to wait.

After that, I had been rightfully scolded, and the GM was very funny. Karrsul should be the German GM IIRC.

https://imgur.com/EmnhOk8.png

As said, I am not happy about what I did back then, but I can't erase the past.
The way Karrsul handled my case was the best so far of all video game and support staff. I've been locked up for 1 day.

Sincerely,
https://imgur.com/kXOfaq9.png
Ex-convict and inmate of Mordion Gaol

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Originally Posted by WaterShield

The rules are indeed the rules. They are not however a divine decree from the heavens. Perhaps the rules should be changed? It seems to myself (along with several others) that this incident was incredibly unfair.

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an unsupported 3rd party program is an unsupported third party program. And you cant build a case on what someone who got banned claimed is the real story on a forum. 90% of the times i have heard of similar cases, and the truth comes out, its not how the banned person was presenting it. Fishy things the OP says; i used to upload logs, i guess i got reported for it. This implies at some point in his life, he uploaded logs, and maybe some one reported it. Unlikely, his offense would probably be recent, and the gm would verify it themselves. Also, they mention they left the game afk at the marketboard, That sounds like the setup for possibility of the gm wrongly thinking he was a bot. Also i know botters usually get a 10 day ban, and it would explain the gm leaving him in jail, since he wasnt actually there to respond.

also, from what i hear, the parsers give a straight up gameplay advantage because they get and present data faster than players normally get it. Its probably one of the key pieces of software in most bots.

Its not simply a benign piece of software that only provides information after the fact.


basically dude is probably a botter, but regardless, the devs are right to ban software which reads data directly in an illegal way if they catch you using it.

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Originally Posted by Physic

an unsupported 3rd party program is an unsupported third party program. And you cant build a case on what someone who got banned claimed is the real story on a forum. 90% of the times i have heard of similar cases, and the truth comes out, its not how the banned person was presenting it.

also, from what i hear, the parsers give a straight up gameplay advantage because they get and present data faster than players normally get it. Its not simply a benign piece of software that only provides information after the fact.

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So what you are saying is that the OP is lying.... because you say so. You are also claiming the program does things it doesn't.... It just reads the battle log files that the game is already making... and presents them in an easier to read format. If you wanted to you could achieve the same effect by opening the log files in question and reading them yourself in any text editor.

They already have separate rules dealing with harassment that would be more than sufficient if it is misused.

All of this is conjecture I say. I still believe we don't have the full story. This includes the OP, I'd think.

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Originally Posted by WaterShield

So what you are saying is that the OP is lying.... because you say so. You are also claiming the program does things it doesn't.... It just reads the battle log files that the game is already making... and presents them in an easier to read format. If you wanted to you could achieve the same effect by opening the log files in question and reading them yourself in any text editor.

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i could easily be wrong, he may be telling the truth, but i wouldnt try to build a case about how the GMs action players with no actual evidence of how they action players, as you suggested. You can't really say the GMs are wrong to give a 10 day ban when you have no idea why they gave a 10 day ban.

.

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Originally Posted by Physic

also, from what i hear, the parsers give a straight up gameplay advantage because they get and present data faster than players normally get it. Its probably one of the key pieces of software in most bots.

Its not simply a benign piece of software that only provides information after the fact.

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The only gameplay advantage it gives you is telling you how you're performing so you can actually use real data/numbers to improve yourself... which wouldn't be an "advantage" at all if everyone could just, y'know, use them. Normally. Through the game itself. But apparently that's Bad.

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Originally Posted by Physic

i could easily be wrong, he may be telling the truth, but i wouldnt try to build a case about how the GMs action players with no actual evidence of how they action players, as you suggested. You can't really say the GMs are wrong to give a 10 day ban when you have no idea why they gave a 10 day ban.

.

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The police roll up and arrest you on trumped up charges, you present your side of the story but are unheard (because criminals never tell the truth). You are then locked in jail without trial (because the police never do any wrong and are all stand up individuals with impeccable morals, also they never lie). Seems like an appeal to authority. I am unwilling to blindly trust people in positions of power.

TLDR: I do have an idea, based on OP's testimony. It has raised CONCERN

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Originally Posted by WaterShield

The police roll up and arrest you on trumped up charges, you present your side of the story but are unheard (because criminals never tell the truth). You are then locked in jail without trial (because the police never do any wrong and are all stand up individuals with impeccable morals, also they never lie). Seems like an appeal to authority. I am unwilling to blindly trust people in positions of power.

TLDR: I do have an idea, based on OP's testimony. It has raised CONCERN

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he presented no evidence, he didnt even say he was told it was for uploading logs, he says, he guesses someone reported him. he said it was for 3rd party software use.

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Originally Posted by Physic

he presented no evidence, he didnt even say he was told it was for uploading logs, he says, he guesses someone reported him. he said it was for 3rd party software use.

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Which raises further concern. You ever heard of a police officer arresting someone, and then refusing to tell them what they stand accused of?

They cannot detect if a parser is or is not being used, as all it does is read local log files. That means if he indeed was banned for 3rd party software use. It was because (as they stated) they were uploading logs at peoples request. So they left a chat log trail of it as a result.

What incentive would they have to lie about this? If they were harassing people, I think they would have been less mystified as to why they were in the gaol.

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Originally Posted by Avidria

The only gameplay advantage it gives you is telling you how you're performing so you can actually use real data/numbers to improve yourself... which wouldn't be an "advantage" at all if everyone could just, y'know, use them. Normally. Through the game itself. But apparently that's Bad.

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the parser doesnt read your files, it reads your incoming data, normally there is lag as the game decides when to give you the data, the parser gets it first. But the main point is, the software is intercepting the data before it gets to client, which is something most companies are not going to allow unrestricted.

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Originally Posted by Avidria

The only gameplay advantage it gives you is telling you how you're performing so you can actually use real data/numbers to improve yourself... which wouldn't be an "advantage" at all if everyone could just, y'know, use them. Normally. Through the game itself. But apparently that's Bad.

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That's not the case at all. ACT will straight up tell you when attacks are coming so you don't have to watch for telegraphs or casting bars. The program just tells you "Larboard attack incoming" and gives you plenty of time to move to where you need to be. That's, as the other poster said, a straight up advantage.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

That's not the case at all. ACT will straight up tell you when attacks are coming so you don't have to watch for telegraphs or casting bars. The program just tells you "Larboard attack incoming" and gives you plenty of time to move to where you need to be. That's, as the other poster said, a straight up advantage.

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This is assuming it was even being used in that way. I've been raiding for awhile and have only ever heard of people using it to look at logs... after the fact. Generally to see where they can boost numbers if they are having a hard time with enrage.

I find it hard to believe that this use (if possible) is prevalent.

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Originally Posted by WaterShield

Which raises further concern. You ever heard of a police officer arresting someone, and then refusing to tell them what they stand accused of?

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you have no idea if they refused to tell him. Based on the other poster's interaction, the gm asked him if he knew why he was there. Once again, you are assuming not based on even what the player claimed.

the player told us;
3rd party software was ban (testimony of a fact)
he tells us its a 10 day ban (testimony of a fact)
he then tells us he guesses its for some old logs, (testimony of speculation)
he never said he was told that, or that he asked him specifically why (no testimony on these questions)

there is no logical reason to debate the sentencing when you only have two claims of fact, which you have not corroborated.
h

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Originally Posted by WaterShield

This is assuming it was even being used in that way. I've been raiding for awhile and have only ever heard of people using it to look at logs... after the fact. Generally to see where they can boost numbers if they are having a hard time with enrage.

I find it hard to believe that this use (if possible) is prevalent.

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How can you find it hard to believe when almost every top raid group that gets the top ten First Clears uses that feature?

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Originally Posted by Physic

you have no idea if they refused to tell him. Based on the other poster's interaction, the gm asked him if he knew why he was there. Once again, you are assuming not based on even what the player claimed.

the player told us;
3rd party software was ban (testimony of a fact)
he tells us its a 10 day ban (testimony of a fact)
he then tells us he guesses its for some old logs, (testimony of speculation)
he never said he was told that, or that he asked him specifically why (no testimony on these questions)

there is no logical reason to debate the sentencing when you only have two claims of fact, which you have not corroborated.
h

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Originally Posted by orderlyanarchist

reported for 3rd party programs. I used to upload logs on request for folks when teaching savage raids. Guess i got reported for it.

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I have all the information I need. They had to guess at what specifically was done, as all they gave them was a vague line.

Real world example: You stand accused of committing robbery... somewhere... at some time... at some day.... maybe with or without a weapon.... yeah you don't need to know any details of what you stand accused of JAIL!

Imagine trying to defend yourself in a court of law with... I think they are talking about this??? Prosecution is being vague.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

How can you find it hard to believe when almost every top raid group that gets the top ten First Clears uses that feature?

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Then why are they not all banned if you know this? They would have OBVIOUSLY left proof around. Which would then mean that the company is selectively enforcing its rules when it feels like it... which is indefensible.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

That's not the case at all. ACT will straight up tell you when attacks are coming so you don't have to watch for telegraphs or casting bars. The program just tells you "Larboard attack incoming" and gives you plenty of time to move to where you need to be. That's, as the other poster said, a straight up advantage.

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Huh. Didn't know that. I've never used it, so I don't know exactly how it works. Is it actually detecting the game data before the in game indicator, or is it working off of timers for things that are predictable based on when the pull happened?

I still don't see why SE can't make their own parser for everyone to use, though. This whole situation is frankly just bizarre to me. They either can't or don't want to find a way to break the parsers so no one can use them, and they also don't want to offer their own in-game parser for everyone to use. Why? Why is it being handled like this? It makes no sense at all.

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Originally Posted by orderlyanarchist

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...194910_890.png

Screenshot as requested.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...161130_509.png

And here's me at also in jail just after 4pm.

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Folsom prison blues, very nice!

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Originally Posted by WaterShield

Then why are they not all banned if you know this? They would have OBVIOUSLY left proof around. Which would then mean that the company is selectively enforcing its rules when it feels like it... which is indefensible.

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They aren't banned because they aren't foolish enough to have the person using it be the one whose screen is being recorded. They have on person using it and calling out the moves over Discord.

I do think we are missing out on the full story, I say it is best to take it with a grain of salt as when people mention parses are used for harassment without proof.

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Originally Posted by Avidria

I still don't see why SE can't make their own parser for everyone to use, though. This whole situation is frankly just bizarre to me. They either can't or don't want to find a way to break the parsers so no one can use them, and they also don't want to offer their own in-game parser for everyone to use. Why? Why is it being handled like this? It makes no sense at all.

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I'm sure there was an interview where Yoshida was asked about ACT and parsers, will search for a link. Main thing is that if there will be official tool for parsering - there is very high chance that players will use it as harassment tool. "Oh you don't have XXXX dps… bye-bye, go away, no you can't go with us looser". Just imagine amount of reports for harassment in this case, it will be everyday 100+ tickets task for GMs. And while this game is pretty much focused on outcoming DPS, Yoshida's statement was that players should not insult each others if there is not enough damage from somebody.

ACT is a grey area. Yes, it is 3d party tool, so technically it's against ToS. However, it doesn't give you any real advantages, so you can use it as long as you don't scream about it in chat and don't harass others because of their damage.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

They aren't banned because they aren't foolish enough to have the person using it be the one whose screen is being recorded. They have on person using it and calling out the moves over Discord.

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So... you think people can't be doing voice chat call-outs of incoming mechanics without cheating? That doesn't seem much like proof.

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Originally Posted by WaterShield

I have all the information I need. They had to guess at what specifically was done, as all they gave them was a vague line.

Real world example: You stand accused of committing robbery... somewhere... at some time... at some day.... maybe with or without a weapon.... yeah you don't need to know any details of what you stand accused of JAIL!

Imagine trying to defend yourself in a court of law with... I think they are talking about this??? Prosecution is being vague.

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you assume they were being vague. You havent seen a transcript, or a log, or a screenshot. you have no idea what the gm told him, or what he asked the gm. The player never even claimed the gm hid information.

My point is, you have virtually no information, you are assuming a lot.

For a 10 day ban, I hope the person that reported it needs legit counseling for how badly their feels got offended. This is outrageous.

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Originally Posted by Physic

you assume they were being vague. You havent seen a transcript, or a log, or a screenshot. you have no idea what the gm told him, or what he asked the gm. The player never even claimed the gm hid information.

My point is, you have virtually no information, you are assuming a lot.

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Similar to you all assuming that he deserves the ban with little detail about the situation? Also, my point is simply to raise CONCERN. I can't claim with 100% certainty that they are or are not guilty.... but neither can you.

Tbh yea they never even posted a screenshot of being in the gm jail in the first place, so I'd need actual proof before I get my torch and pitch fork to riot at SE

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Originally Posted by Yllania

Tbh yea they never even posted a screenshot of being in the gm jail in the first place, so I'd need actual proof before I get my torch and pitch fork to riot at SE

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Originally Posted by orderlyanarchist

Is this normal? My anxiety is sinking its fangs into me after two hours with no context or explanation as to why I'm here, and I can't think of a reason myself. I've submitted a ticket and even tried leaving feedback, but I've yet to hear anything.

It's absolutely horrible. I feel like i was thrown in here and forgotten about, and I'm scared to even look away because what if the GM shows up while I'm not here and i'm not there to catch it and I have to wait even longer?

This can't be how the system is supposed to work, right? I thought it was meant to be a place gm's pull people in for a quick chat, not a dungeon you get locked in for hours while you try to figure out what you did wrong.

EDIT: Pushing four now

EDIT: Screenshots by request:

Just after 4pm: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...161130_509.png

Almost 8 pm: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...194910_890.png

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Did you read OP? Because there be screenshots.

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Originally Posted by WaterShield

Did you read OP? Because there be screenshots.

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Yea actually, I was here during it happening and have posted a couple of times in the thread. If youre going to demand I read the op every time I come here in case of an edit, I'm going to have to demand you read the whole thread before acting all high and mighty.

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Originally Posted by Yllania

Yea actually, I was here during it happening and have posted a couple of times in the thread. If youre going to demand I read the op every time I come here in case of an edit, I'm going to have to demand you read the whole thread before acting all high and mighty.

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I have love... every...single... post.

Also... it was a question.. not a demand.

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Originally Posted by WaterShield

So... you think people can't be doing voice chat call-outs of incoming mechanics without cheating? That doesn't seem much like proof.

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Huh? What are you on about?

Okay, let's spell this out for you. 1) The majority of the top World First clear groups all use ACT triggers (telling you about moves before they come). 2) They aren't banned because they aren't stupid. SE has a don't ask, don't tell policy. So as long as those groups don't say anything about it chat or upload a log in chat, and don't have the person using ACT triggers be the one that's recording, then SE is none the wiser.

If you're wondering how I know they use them, that would be because I've personally seen members of at least two groups use them, and others have talked about it on other social media platforms (that I will not link or disclose for obvious reasons).