Request for Utsusemi

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

I will keep talking as if it did, because it did. PLD was a second rate tank for everything except the dozen HNMs where it eeked out a victory over NIN. You haven't yet showed me any proof that PLD was on equal footing with NIN, and i have hard numbers that showed that NIN was faring better than PLD.

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For one, because I'm not talking about FFXI, Ninja OR Paladin - for the 832948923489th time. And all of a sudden you went from 8 NM's to 12. Randomly increase argument by a factor of 4!

Why are we even talking which from PLD or NIN is better XD? I thought it was about how broken Utsusemi was or in general how shadow tanking was far superior than blood tanking.

or how it would increase survival by superior margin if OP is still on bard subject.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

k ur dumb, i'm so ashamed it took me 8 pages in this topic and 4 pages in another to figure it out.

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Congratulations! I figured that much about you back with your first post.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

Why are we even talking which from PLD or NIN is better XD? I thought it was about how broken Utsusemi was or in general how shadow tanking was far superior than blood tanking.

or how it would increase survival by superior margin if OP is still on bard subject.

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Holy Christ! Are we talking about tanking in this thread??!

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Originally Posted by Firon

lol no you don't like i said PLD/NIN took less dmg than nin no matter what you say and did more dmg.

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http://i.imgur.com/U2ILD.jpg

You don't judge a tank on a single criteria in a single scenario. Please tell me you're not serious with this reply.

If anything, we can say that in 9 pages thus far, 100% of its participants have a major problem with reading comprehension. I think it speaks for a subconscious desire to return to FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Xoo

For one, because I'm not talking about FFXI, Ninja OR Paladin - for the 832948923489th time. And all of a sudden you went from 8 NM's to 12. Randomly increase argument by a factor of 4!

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It's not a "factor of 4", that's multiplying by 4.

And I said "like" a dozen. I'm not claiming 100% accuracy in the numbers of HNMs that PLD outranked NIN on, because I'm not sure of that. What I am sure of, though, is that NIN outranked PLD on the overwhelming majority of end-game situations, including non-HNM end-game.

Can you come up with some counter points that aren't strawmen?

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

It's not a "factor of 4", that's multiplying by 4.

And I said "like" a dozen. I'm not claiming 100% accuracy in the numbers of HNMs that PLD outranked NIN on, because I'm not sure of that. What I am sure of, though, is that NIN outranked PLD on the overwhelming majority of end-game situations, including non-HNM end-game.

Can you come up with some counter points that aren't strawmen?

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Unfortunately, I cannot because I could not care less about your points since they do not address why giving Bard Utsusemi is a good/bad idea. How is it possible that you can derive that my arguments are straw man? You can't even comprehend a five-word sentence. o.O

Welp I added Xoo to my ignore list. Half the posts in this topic are gone. Guess it's time for me to stop paying attention to it, unless I want to read more intellectual posts from Chardrizard.

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Originally Posted by Firon

No pld became a blink tank.... I said an DEF base tank became a blink tank..... the skill was too good.

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Ochain says hi.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Welp I added Xoo to my ignore list. Half the posts in this topic are gone. Guess it's time for me to stop paying attention to it, unless I want to read more intellectual posts from Chardrizard.

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<--gives Wolfie a ball of yarn.

That is a shame.

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Originally Posted by Antanias

<--gives Wolfie a ball of yarn.

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This is so much better than getting angry over ignorant forum posts!

http://i.imgur.com/SnOi2.gif

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

This is so much better than getting angry over ignorant forum posts!

http://i.imgur.com/SnOi2.gif

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Lol, I give yarn to all the cool cats :D

You know whats worse then Utsusemi ? If you played FFXI recently you know what I am talking about.

Fanatics Drinks.

Ok so they fixed Paladin tanking, gave them an over powered shield. Ochain - it blocks 90-100% of the time for a 90-100% damage reduction and if somehow you do take some damage get 35% of that damage converted to MP so you can't really run out of mp.

But in Voidwatch the current high endgame content. you don't need a tank when everyone spams Fanatics Drinks which are constantly getting refreshed throughout the fight which make players invincible to the mobs attacks and tp moves. Better to load up your party with WAR, SAM, MNK, DRK BLM, BLU, COR, ect to kill the mob faster.

So yea they fixed blood tanking with Ochain but you don't even need a tank for anything sad isn't it your practically immune to physical damage now and nobody wants you. Ukko's Fury, Tachi:Shoha, Wildfire that stuff to death.

SE has never been nice to tanks.

Nobody can give an actual response to the OP? Wait, is this the same community that raged over option 4 in the server merge, got it changed to option 1 and after learning what they'd actually asked for, went batshit crazy? Yes, we all know what we want, don't we?

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Originally Posted by Zumi

You know whats worse then Utsusemi ? If you played FFXI recently you know what I am talking about.

Fanatics Drinks.

Ok so they fixed Paladin tanking, gave them an over powered shield. Ochain - it blocks 90-100% of the time for a 90-100% damage reduction and if somehow you do take some damage get 35% of that damage converted to MP so you can't really run out of mp.

But in Voidwatch the current high endgame content. you don't need a tank when everyone spams Fanatics Drinks which are constantly getting refreshed throughout the fight which make players invincible to the mobs attacks and tp moves. Better to load up your party with WAR, SAM, MNK, DRK BLM, BLU, COR, ect to kill the mob faster.

So yea they fixed blood tanking with Ochain but you don't even need a tank for anything sad isn't it your practically immune to physical damage now and nobody wants you. Ukko's Fury, Tachi:Shoha, Wildfire that stuff to death.

SE has never been nice to tanks.

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I don't even know why I play Square-Enix games anymore. If I got the stupid, I got it from them.

Utsu was actually a really cool concept in my opinion. Coupled with XI's battle system, it took some difficulty and mastery to be good at it, but I'm pretty sure utsu was an immensely popular skill for subbing, so I wouldn't say it made the game broke or problematic. Only bish was the quest. YES, utsu should make a return, there's a lot more to xiv that can make it a different mechanic.

I couldn't really see Utsusemi being used in XIV, although it would be cool too see a Nin throw it up in a CS or something for nostalgia. These forums are a riot though.. it's not even shocking anymore to see stuff like people claiming Utsusemi was somehow broken or broke XI.. If it did anything to the game, it helped to define the content's style and difficulty. Aside from that, it wasn't even required (or preferred -- esp for dd) in a lot of situations.

But I guess because some people have some personal issues with its popularity for tanking (even though it is a defensive ability afterall).... that means it must have been broken, and broke all the rest of the game too!.. /whatever

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Originally Posted by Exn

I couldn't really see Utsusemi being used in XIV, although it would be cool too see a Nin throw it up in a CS or something for nostalgia. These forums are a riot though.. it's not even shocking anymore to see stuff like people claiming Utsusemi was somehow broken or broke XI.. If it did anything to the game, it helped to define the content's style and difficulty. Aside from that, it wasn't even required (or preferred -- esp for dd) in a lot of situations.

But I guess because some people have some personal issues with its popularity for tanking (even though it is a defensive ability afterall).... that means it must have been broken, and broke all the rest of the game too!.. /whatever

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Yeah, all I hear when Wolfie speaks is "NIN tank? You got a THF"? It's like they never played the game at all.

What made Utsu broken was the fact that there wasn't a single skill that could match it.

It killed blood tanking. pld/nin, rdm/nin, nin/drk
It Killed DD's DPS- Subbing /nin instead of /thf /sam /war
everyone subbed nin for that spell and that spell only. It gimped the hell out of people.

Also Nin may have been the better tank. But it required top gear/ great skill. 90% of the them sucked though and couldn't tank anything. Once atonement came out and enfeeble's were gimped Nin sucked at tanking.

The counter argument to giving BARD Utsusemi (or any single job for that matter):

Because then you'd see a party of nothing but 8 Bards bouncing hate and taking 0 damage while whittling down the NM.

What it all comes down to is that being able to avoid multiple hits repeatedly (30 - 45 sec recast) is over powered because you are damaging the enemy and they aren't touching you, making it the vastly preferred class even if it is low DPS.

If it were to make a return, it would need to be scaled down to
1) not be possible to have it up 90-100% of the time and
2) not be accessible by all classes.

Oh wait, they already have abilities that are scaled down and not over powered: Decoy and Feather foot, which won't be accessible by all jobs. As a current GLA, they help with reducing damage, but they don't make you evade everything which is a nice balance in my book.

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Originally Posted by Xianghua

What made Utsu broken was the fact that there wasn't a single skill that could match it.

It killed blood tanking. pld/nin, rdm/nin, nin/drk
It Killed DD's DPS- Subbing /nin instead of /thf /sam /war
everyone subbed nin for that spell and that spell only. It gimped the hell out of people.

Also Nin may have been the better tank. But it required top gear/ great skill. 90% of the them sucked though and couldn't tank anything. Once atonement came out and enfeeble's were gimped Nin sucked at tanking.

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No, ma'am. A tank that could not hold hate gimped DPS. Paladin still had its uses, /NIN or no.

I'll bite.

I've read through the entire thread (albeit relatively quickly), but I haven't seen one post or reasoning why the OP wants Utsusemi for BRD. Care to explain why? Because until then, this argument:

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Originally Posted by Eli_Jin

The counter argument to giving BARD Utsusemi (or any single job for that matter):

Because then you'd see a party of nothing but 8 Bards bouncing hate and taking 0 damage while whittling down the NM.

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Is pretty much why Utsusemi is not a very good idea, even if it's restricted to BRD only.

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Originally Posted by Eli_Jin

The counter argument to giving BARD Utsusemi (or any single job for that matter):

Because then you'd see a party of nothing but 8 Bards bouncing hate and taking 0 damage while whittling down the NM.

What it all comes down to is that being able to avoid multiple hits repeatedly (30 - 45 sec recast) is over powered because you are damaging the enemy and they aren't touching you, making it the vastly preferred class even if it is low DPS.

If it were to make a return, it would need to be scaled down to
1) not be possible to have it up 90-100% of the time and
2) not be accessible by all classes.

Oh wait, they already have abilities that are scaled down and not over powered: Decoy and Feather foot, which won't be accessible by all jobs. As a current GLA, they help with reducing damage, but they don't make you evade everything which is a nice balance in my book.

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Yes. That's why in XI every NM fight consisted of 100% Ninja. Or even better, BRD/NIN!

Shadows do grant you a great deal of survivability, but far from invincibility.

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Originally Posted by Xoo

Yes. That's why in XI every NM fight consisted of 100% Ninja. Or even better, BRD/NIN!

Shadows do grant you a great deal of survivability, but far from invincibility.

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XI fight- pld/nin x2 Sam/nin x10 whm rdm x3 brdx2 and some blms

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Originally Posted by Xoo

Or even better, BRD/NIN!

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BRD/NIN was actually a viable tank once in FFXI.

Yes, I'm serious.

(although it might've been NIN/BRD now that I think about it)

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Originally Posted by Stanislaw

BRD/NIN was actually a viable tank once in FFXI.

Yes, I'm serious.

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Was far superior hate-wise than any other class lmao, that was fun while it lasted.

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Originally Posted by Stanislaw

I'll bite.

I've read through the entire thread (albeit relatively quickly), but I haven't seen one post or reasoning why the OP wants Utsusemi for BRD. Care to explain why? Because until then, this argument:



Is pretty much why Utsusemi is not a very good idea, even if it's restricted to BRD only.

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OH MY GOD DO YOU MEAN IT??! An actual response?

Bard is meant as a support job, yes? Bard has a bow, yes? Bard will have Swiftsong yes? Can bard not be an actual puller for the group, instead of one person mounting a chocobo, getting too far away from the party and only drawing the aggro of 1 or 2 mobs? I hope/suspect that BRD songs will have a good AoE and range on them, where it can stand at enough distance to continually feed the group mobs to kill.

Take for instance:

(Enemy Group)<-------------->(Bard)<-------------->(Party)

The mobs are too far out of range for 1 melee member to successfully link a group, but the Bard stands between them, has shadows, can sleep them, buff the party, do some damage and still stay alive without the guarantee of cures and stoneskin.

EDIT: Please, as a reward Stanislaw, you are free to laugh at me all you like and still get honest smiles. /bow :D

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Originally Posted by Xoo

OH MY GOD DO YOU MEAN IT??! An actual response?

Bard is meant as a support job, yes? Bard has a bow, yes? Bard will have Swiftsong yes? Can bard not be an actual puller for the group, instead of one person mounting a chocobo, getting too far away from the party and only drawing the aggro of 1 or 2 mobs? I hope/suspect that BRD songs will have a good AoE and range on them, where it can stand at enough distance to continually feed the group mobs to kill.

Take for instance:

(Enemy Group)<-------------->(Bard)<-------------->(Party)

The mobs are too far out of range for 1 melee member to successfully link a group, but the Bard stands between them, has shadows, can sleep them, buff the party, do some damage and still stay alive without the guarantee of cures and stoneskin.

EDIT: Please, as a reward Stanislaw, you are free to laugh at me all you like and still get honest smiles. /bow :D

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You don't Need Utsu to pull mobs that deaggro 5 feet from their spawn point. Like most other things in XI. People think its needed in this game just because it was in XI. Right now XIV has no use for utsu and I doubt it ever will.

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Originally Posted by Xoo

OH MY GOD DO YOU MEAN IT??! An actual response?

Bard is meant as a support job, yes? Bard has a bow, yes? Bard will have Swiftsong yes? Can bard not be an actual puller for the group, instead of one person mounting a chocobo, getting too far away from the party and only drawing the aggro of 1 or 2 mobs? I hope/suspect that BRD songs will have a good AoE and range on them, where it can stand at enough distance to continually feed the group mobs to kill.

Take for instance:

(Enemy Group)<-------------->(Bard)<-------------->(Party)

The mobs are too far out of range for 1 melee member to successfully link a group, but the Bard stands between them, has shadows, can sleep them, buff the party, do some damage and still stay alive without the guarantee of cures and stoneskin.

EDIT: Please, as a reward Stanislaw, you are free to laugh at me all you like and still get honest smiles. /bow :D

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Couple of things.

While your argument for giving Utsusemi to BRD might sound like good reasoning, it seems to me that you're confused in thinking that a BRD's role in FFXIV will be the same as FFXI. As a BRD player in FFXI myself, whenever I was invited to merit parties I've always subbed NIN because I loved my role as a puller, and as a puller it was pretty much necessary to sub NIN lest you get pounded to death (although I will say it was still possible with a WHM sub, just harder). Was one of my most fun experiences in FFXI.

However, whereas FFXI's style of exping was more about 'setting up camp and pulling mobs to party', FFXIV's style is more 'roaming'. Therefore, BRD doesn't have to the puller. If anything, it would be more logical for the designated tank to pull mobs (attack first), especially because of how links work in FFXIV and how mobs are 'leashed' in their respective areas.

But other melees don't have ranged attack? Actually, there's quite a bit of options when it comes to ranged weapons, even for melee, because of the existence of things like Exorcism Beans which are easy to make/dirt cheap and can stack to 99. This allows all jobs to pull mobs from range if necessary.

Also, trying to use Swiftsong as a reason for a BRD to pull isn't that great either because you actually have to stop and cast Swiftsong first (especially now that movement cancels magic), then go pull the mob. And the moment you attack it, it wears off, so it's not really that great for pulling.

In conclusion, if giving BRD Utsusemi for the sake of pulling is your only reason to give it the ability, I think it's a poor reason, especially given the demerits everyone else in this thread has pointed out.

why should bard have utsusemi?
it'd be cool if the ninja job would get it at some point, but why exactly bard?
the answer is probably somewhere already in the thread, but i'm not going thru pages of FFXI ninja hating, bleh XD.

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Originally Posted by Stanislaw

Couple of things.

While your argument for giving Utsusemi to BRD might sound like good reasoning, it seems to me that you're confused in thinking that a BRD's role in FFXIV will be the same as FFXI. As a BRD player in FFXI myself, whenever I was invited to merit parties I've always subbed NIN because I loved my role as a puller, and as a puller it was pretty much necessary to sub NIN lest you get pounded to death (although I will say it was still possible with a WHM sub, just harder). Was one of my most fun experiences in FFXI.

However, whereas FFXI's style of exping was more about 'setting up camp and pulling mobs to party', FFXIV's style is more 'roaming'. Therefore, BRD doesn't have to the puller. If anything, it would be more logical for the designated tank to pull mobs (attack first), especially because of how links work in FFXIV and how mobs are 'leashed' in their respective areas.

But other melees don't have ranged attack? Actually, there's quite a bit of options when it comes to ranged weapons, even for melee, because of the existence of things like Exorcism Beans which are easy to make/dirt cheap and can stack to 99. This allows all jobs to pull mobs from range if necessary.

Also, trying to use Swiftsong as a reason for a BRD to pull isn't that great either because you actually have to stop and cast Swiftsong first (especially now that movement cancels magic), then go pull the mob. And the moment you attack it, it wears off, so it's not really that great for pulling.

In conclusion, if giving BRD Utsusemi for the sake of pulling is your only reason to give it the ability, I think it's a poor reason, especially given the demerits everyone else in this thread has pointed out.

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I think this game is moving more toward the static camp as before. Here's why: Mages regain MP at a much faster rate when standing still; Movement will cancel casting; If you are in a Stronghold party without 50's to carry you, there is little need to roam as the respawn rate is so short; Mob concentration is very dense in many places; Many of the AoE Weaponskills are gone.

Exorcism Beans, Chakrams, Throwing Daggers.. all of those have a significantly less range to them compared to that of Archer and what I will assume will carry over into the Bowharp's range. Regarding Swiftsong, I imagine the sequence of pulling might go something like this: Utsusemi/Swiftsong > Buff group > Pull 4-5 mobs > Sleep > PLD Flash the group > PLD /ra 1 mob for the group > Group Defeats the mob > PLD pulls next /ra (Until group reduced to last) > Repeat.

As far as leashing, there are many spots where a group can stand and still pull from 2 or more immediate areas without having the mobs return. Just as in XI, there were key spots to camp in a group of target mobs - same here.

Thank you for not defaulting me as a troll and giving honest feedback to my suggestion. :)

EDIT: The only demerits anyone gave anything in this entire thread was to FFXI, Ninja and how Utsusemi was implemented and sometimes abused in that game. Trust me, not one person gave a single shred of commentary as to why it would or would not work in this game as I have suggested.

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Originally Posted by Xoo

I think this game is moving more toward the static camp as before. Here's why: Mages regain MP at a much faster rate when standing still; Movement will cancel casting; If you are in a Stronghold party without 50's to carry you, there is little need to roam as the respawn rate is so short; Mob concentration is very dense in many places; Many of the AoE Weaponskills are gone.

Exorcism Beans, Chakrams, Throwing Daggers.. all of those have a significantly less range to them compared to that of Archer and what I will assume will carry over into the Bowharp's range. Regarding Swiftsong, I imagine the sequence of pulling might go something like this: Utsusemi/Swiftsong > Buff group > Pull 4-5 mobs > Sleep > PLD Flash the group > PLD /ra 1 mob for the group > Group Defeats the mob > PLD pulls next /ra (Until group reduced to last) > Repeat.

As far as leashing, there are many spots where a group can stand and still pull from 2 or more immediate areas without having the mobs return. Just as in XI, there were key spots to camp in a group of target mobs - same here.

Thank you for not defaulting me as a troll and giving honest feedback to my suggestion. :)

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You need to remember that right now XIV Exp revolves around AoE. Pulling mobs sleeping them is kinda pointless when you can just kill them all in less then a min. Any job can pull and you don't need shadows to do it. It will most likely still be better for tank to get on choco and aggro/run to camp. Pulling is really only needed in a game where you can only handle 1/2 mobs. Not in a game where you can handle an entire camp with ease.

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Originally Posted by Xianghua

XI fight- pld/nin x2 Sam/nin x10 whm rdm x3 brdx2 and some blms

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Yes, and what do you get when you have a group of BRD's trying to take out an NM with AoE spam/nukes? A whole bunch of dead Bards! Because Bard will not have Provoke or Taunt, and therefore hate cannot be bounced in a necessarily controlled fashion.

If you really want it try post it in Japanese language and in JP forum,
not here and wait to see the response or maybe riot of JP players.

IMO if you want BRD to got utsusemi I would rather prefer new job as Ninja itself with exclusive utsusemi. Deal?

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Originally Posted by Xianghua

You need to remember that right now XIV Exp revolves around AoE. Pulling mobs sleeping them is kinda pointless when you can just kill them all in less then a min. Any job can pull and you don't need shadows to do it. It will most likely still be better for tank to get on choco and aggro/run to camp. Pulling is really only needed in a game where you can only handle 1/2 mobs. Not in a game where you can handle an entire camp with ease.

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First paragraph, last sentence. What do you get now when you have a slew of mobs to kill? - Every melee fighting his own mob and fights taking too long because they haven't realized that AoE Weaponskills don't play a key role in battle anymore; At least not through the grind levels.

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Originally Posted by Mirana

If you really want it try post it in Japanese language and in JP forum,
not here and wait to see the response or maybe riot of JP players.

IMO if you want BRD to got utsusemi I would rather prefer new job as Ninja itself with exclusive utsusemi. Deal?

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Doesn't sound bad I guess. I don't speak Japanese. :o

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Originally Posted by Xoo

First paragraph, last sentence. What do you get now when you have a slew of mobs to kill? - Every melee fighting his own mob and fights taking too long because they haven't realized that AoE Weaponskills don't play a key role in battle anymore. At least not through the grind levels anymore.

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How are you going to sleep them? With that black mage spell that is most likely level 50? Why do you need shadows when you can get to and from mobs to camp on choco without even losing stoneskin? Utsu will do nothing that can't already be done in game.

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Originally Posted by Xianghua

How are you going to sleep them? With that black mage spell that is most likely level 50? Why do you need shadows when you can get to and from mobs to camp on choco without even losing stoneskin? Utsu will do nothing that can't already be done in game.

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With sleep songs? Sleep arrows? AoE Sleep songs? AoE Sleep arrows? Your third question has already been answered, but I'll say it again: Too many times I've seen some random single party member jump on a Choco, ride headlong to a distant group of mobs and only bring back 1-3. This after some time had passed as they tried in vain to trigger sight aggro, only to get their Choco maimed and make it back far too slowly. This given that you're fighting mobs that do aggro.