Jobs and Class, I am nervous now.

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Originally Posted by Holy_Dragoon

You mean like how everyone jumped on Server Merge option 4 sucking hard before seeing it in action, then when option 2 was implemented it caused all kinds of people/linkshells to be unable to move to new servers due to SE's attempts to balance the player counts across all servers equally?

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As opposed to the huge issues option 4 could have caused... And its not like we can wait and see how a merge would occur before we complain, its kinda too late at that point xD

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Originally Posted by Wynn

OP has a point, guys, and you know it.

This whole mentality of wait to question changes until its too late and set in stone crap is retarded and fanboyish.

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No need for this generalized, argumentative response.

There's no use in defending a post that was nothing more than venting fear of something unknown, something which also will not be changed despite what anyone could possibly write in this thread now.

By the way, it's an MMO. Nothing, ever, is set in stone.

There are so many things wrong with what you're saying, but I'll just leave it at that.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

No need for this generalized, argumentative response.

There's no use in defending a post that was nothing more than venting fear of something unknown, something which also will not be changed despite what anyone could possibly write in this thread now.

By the way, it's an MMO. Nothing, ever, is set in stone.

There are so many things wrong with what you're saying, but I'll just leave it at that.

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/something

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Originally Posted by Wynn

There is a difference between OP's analysis and the general forum stupidity that went on regarding the merge options.

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My point being, that perhaps instead of being so quick to judge the results of what we have just been shown, maybe we should be waiting to see how all the changes are going to be implemented before judging. We got one set of questions answered, but now we have more.

For example:
How much will stats be affected by changing jobs?

We can't make proper judgement yet without all the facts.

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Originally Posted by Choyi

As opposed to the huge issues option 4 could have caused... And its not like we can wait and see how a merge would occur before we complain, its kinda too late at that point xD

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We'll never know for sure, now will we ;) It's impossible to prove one was better than the other at this point. However that was not the point of my previous post.

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Originally Posted by AdvancedWind

OP only has a point IF all he assumed is true, and all of his assumptions are based of a video that was NOT intended to show off the power of BLM abilities, not to mention that the stats on EVERY single video SE released up to this point did NOT reflect actual in-game numbers.

If the video was a showcase for the new BLM abilities and they did deal that damage, then OP would have a point.

And if we start analysing the video, we also realize that

A) All sleeps worked
B) Even the regular sleep spell had no recast time
C) Kobolds received - just enough - damage to die in time to show everything they wanted to
D) Not a single spell failed, got resisted or cancelled by a hit.

This doesn't happen under regular in-game conditions, sorry.

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Like everyone says, we just don't know. So your assuming the video is as much false, as I am saying it's a true video.

I would hope that none of his spells were resisted against a mob his level. Unless, you know, he used stone against a kobold. That should be resisted.

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

Like everyone says, we just don't know. So your assuming the video is as much false, as I am saying it's a true video.

I would hope that none of his spells were resisted against a mob his level. Unless, you know, he used stone against a kobold. That should be resisted.

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I think all he's doing is pointing out the solid chance, based on consistent precedent, that the video does not accurately represent the ability of a BLM.

Don't forget, if you don't like the job, you can always just play the class.

Every single new spell and ability introduced will have a reasoning behind it, even if we don't see that reason in the same patch it is released, we may start to realise the meaning and justification further down the line (as an example, Resonance got a bit of hate as a "pointless" ability, as did the mechanics behind Blizzaga Bind, but as we usher in the changes to spellcasting, the thought process behind these spells become more and more obvious).

Would rather have a dev/rep comment on if the video is true now or not, than waste my time unlocking black mage and all it's abilities to find out it sucks.

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Originally Posted by Starlord

That's what SE is doing.

How is preparing, planing and expected outcome have anything to do with the Community blowing things out of proportion before even the patch is released? :/

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Because SE is known for making huge mistakes and than saying, oops we will fix it at a later date. By the way SE statement of fix it later is either 6 months down the road or never.

I myself am concerned at what SE is or has done with the job system. As I play thm and am looking at blm, the ability to not be able to cure or buff one's self is not something I am thrilled about. As much as I hate to say this (I will have to wait and see) exactly what has been done.

In closeing there is no reason that players can not hold a discussion about their concerns with or without experiencing the content. Again SE is known to do things that dont work very well or is broken.

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

Would rather have a dev/rep comment on if the video is true now or not, than waste my time unlocking black mage and all it's abilities to find out it sucks.

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Again, even if it's true the BLM isn't in AF gear. This means it's not represented accurately for sure.

I feel a little nervous about the concept of jobs myself. It seems typical XIV-style so far: strange and probably misguided. I guess we'll see how it pans out in the coming days

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Originally Posted by Maxthunder

Because SE is known for making huge mistakes and than saying, oops we will fix it at a later date. By the way SE statement of fix it later is either 6 months down the road or never.

I myself am concerned at what SE is or has done with the job system. As I play thm and am looking at blm, the ability to not be able to cure or buff one's self is not something I am thrilled about. As much as I hate to say this (I will have to wait and see) exactly what has been done.

In closeing there is no reason that players can not hold a discussion about their concerns with or without experiencing the content. Again SE is known to do things that dont work very well or is broken.

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SE is known to do this and do that is all subjective and Opinionated, depends on how you look at it :/.

Edit: also Expressing Concern about something we know hardly about, is like Expressing concern for a new Restraunt Opening up without first trying it first

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

That movement while casting video has made me very extremely nervous on how jobs are supposed to improve party play, or anything else at that matter. After watching it and noticing a few things it makes me wonder... how?

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What did you expect to see in the video? A black mage one shotting a level 50+ monster? Let's not forget about balance.... thaumaturges do insane burst damage as it is. If a black mage was able to do even more for less MP all the other DD jobs would be useless.
I'm sure black mages will do more noticeable damage in end game fights, and don't forget black mages are getting a way to manage hate and mp better. This will lead to a huge boost in the total dmg a black mage can do considering MP and enmity are the biggest things holding thaumaturges back.
Your reason for sleepaga being useless doesn't even make sense. Just because black mages get a spell that can make another spell useless doesn't mean they're both useless.... just don't use them together....

You seem to understand that the jobs are supposed to bring clear roles to parties, and yet you're complaining about not being able to cure yourself as a blackmage.... something that's not part of the blackmage role! -_-

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Originally Posted by Starlord

SE is known to do this and do that is all subjective and Opinionated, depends on how you look at it :/.

Edit: also Expressing Concern about something we know hardly about, is like Expressing concern for a new Restraunt Opening up without first trying it first

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I look at it more like this, you have two workers. One is a full timer (blm), the other a part timer(Thm). Full timer does the same exact work as the part-timer in that one department, but can only work in one department. While the part-timer can not only work in that department but others as well.

Why be a full timer if the part timer can do more and show he is better at doing more?

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

I look at it more like this, you have two workers. One is a full timer (blm), the other a part timer(Thm). Full timer does the same exact work as the part-timer in that one department, but can only work in one department. While the part-timer can not only work in that department but others as well.

Why be a full timer if the part timer can do more and show he is better at doing more?

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Sounds like you're just going to have to play BLM in some of the new party-oriented content coming out on Friday (or w/e they decide to release 1.21). Creating analogies in an attempt to try and reiterate or clarify your anxieties/speculations doesn't make them any less of what they are: anxieties/speculations.

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Originally Posted by Shiggysonson

What did you expect to see in the video? A black mage one shotting a level 50+ monster? Let's not forget about balance.... thaumaturges do insane burst damage as it is. If a black mage was able to do even more for less MP all the other DD jobs would be useless.
I'm sure black mages will do more noticeable damage in end game fights, and don't forget black mages are getting a way to manage hate and mp better. This will lead to a huge boost in the total dmg a black mage can do considering MP and enmity are the biggest things holding thaumaturges back.
Your reason for sleepaga being useless doesn't even make sense. Just because black mages get a spell that can make another spell useless doesn't mean they're both useless.... just don't use them together....

You seem to understand that the jobs are supposed to bring clear roles to parties, and yet you're complaining about not being able to cure yourself as a blackmage.... something that's not part of the blackmage role! -_-

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Flare would be an absolutely dumb spell to use unless you have multiple black mages about to use it and guarantees all the mobs die. Cause if you pull too many like some parties have done and you DoT them and the all live, great they all have dots so they can't be slept. I never said sleepga was useless, I said in that situation sleepga would be useless, never said it was totally useless like Flare will be.

I also complain that if I can't cure myself as the Black Mage role, yes I have necrogenesis and second wind. It irks me that White mage can toss out heals, and be good at dps in certain situations, when it's role is the HEALER. If it's role is to heal now, why the fudge does it get any form of dps that is possibly equal to black mage in any form?

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

Flare would be an absolutely dumb spell to use unless you have multiple black mages about to use it and guarantees all the mobs die. Cause if you pull too many like some parties have done and you DoT them and the all live, great they all have dots so they can't be slept. I never said sleepga was useless, I said in that situation sleepga would be useless, never said it was totally useless like Flare will be.

I also complain that if I can't cure myself as the Black Mage role, yes I have necrogenesis and second wind. It irks me that White mage can toss out heals, and be good at dps in certain situations, when it's role is the HEALER. If it's role is to heal now, why the fudge does it get any form of dps that is possibly equal to black mage in any form?

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WHM= Holy... always had Holy.. and that's a DPS >.>.

This happens with every patch that changes combat. People are incredibly concerned and it's the end of the world until the patch hits. Once the patch is up it turns out everything wasn't nearly as bad as we all thought and the devs were actually doing their jobs and balancing things mostly well.

Edit: Jobs look like they're promoting a completely different kind of gameplay than we're used to so far in XIV. Right now with classes it's mostly about the self, you can be quite self-sufficient and cover a wider range of roles. With jobs they're very strict and precise roles however they're also all built around group play. The way a lot of these things look like they're going to work means they will be best with other jobs supporting them.

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

Would rather have a dev/rep comment on if the video is true now or not, than waste my time unlocking black mage and all it's abilities to find out it sucks.

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You mean like all classes have at some point?

SE has done reasonably well, in my opinion, at beefing up or nerfing down an overly weak or overly powerfull class, at the times the general population has flooding the forums with discussion pointing out the imbalance. They may not always do well with there implimentation of an idea for a class, but they have done reasonably well at adjusting it due to players suggestion to correct the issue.

For example, I was leveling ARC to be bard. I like bard in general and in concept. I have played bard classes in many many MMOs. Yet when I got to the point of leveling ARC, it was right after there big nerf. Every other Tom, Dick, and Harry was leveling the, at the time, the some what over powered lancer. It was clear by the 8 threads a day discussions of it, that my opinion of the situation was not unique. So, I knew the situation would change for ARC, there for rage abandoning of the class and up comming job was illogical. Much like your comment.

Even if BLM is not everything you desire it to be, it does not mean it will stay on the level it is upon release. After a patch this big, you can most certainly expect 1.21a, 1,21b, 1.21c, and so on, in terms of adjustments and fixes. As well as, possible large adjustments by the next patch.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

This happens with every patch that changes combat. People are incredibly concerned and it's the end of the world until the patch hits. Once the patch is up it turns out everything wasn't nearly as bad as we all thought and the devs were actually doing their jobs and balancing things mostly well.

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Well said Arcell =)

****B R E A K I N G N E W S****
new lodestone update, forum floods with QQ

shocking new developments at 9
stay tuned!

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

I also complain that if I can't cure myself as the Black Mage role, yes I have necrogenesis and second wind. It irks me that White mage can toss out heals, and be good at dps in certain situations, when it's role is the HEALER. If it's role is to heal now, why the fudge does it get any form of dps that is possibly equal to black mage in any form?

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Yo, bro... lol. How do you know WHMs will be able to pump out any form of DPS remotely close to that which a BLM might be able to do? Honestly man, I think you're thinking about this waaaay too much, and getting waaaay worked up over nothing. How do you know if whether once you change to BLM you get an increase in Mag. Acc and INT (or, w/e, just giving arbitrary examples), AND if switching to WHM they get a REDUCTION of Mag. Acc. and INT (or, w/e, again, just giving arbitrary examples) - or any other alteration of stats that would effect total magic damage output?

... you don't - so chillax yo~

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Originally Posted by fusional

****B R E A K I N G N E W S****
new lodestone update, forum floods with QQ

shocking new developments at 9
stay tuned!

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That's not news *changes channel*

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Originally Posted by Holy_Dragoon

My point being, that perhaps instead of being so quick to judge the results of what we have just been shown, maybe we should be waiting to see how all the changes are going to be implemented before judging. We got one set of questions answered, but now we have more.

For example:
How much will stats be affected by changing jobs?

We can't make proper judgement yet without all the facts.



We'll never know for sure, now will we ;) It's impossible to prove one was better than the other at this point. However that was not the point of my previous post.

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I agree with you, but I also feel that the questions OP raises are valid based on what information they have provided thus far and should be answered.

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Originally Posted by Reaujien

Yo, bro... lol. How do you know WHMs will be able to pump out any form of DPS remotely close to that which a BLM might be able to do? Honestly man, I think you're thinking about this waaaay too much, and getting waaaay worked up over nothing. How do you know if whether once you change to BLM you get an increase in Mag. Acc and INT (or, w/e, just giving arbitrary examples), AND if switching to WHM they get a REDUCTION of Mag. Acc. and INT (or, w/e, again, just giving arbitrary examples) - or any other alteration of stats that would effect total magic damage output?

... you don't - so chillax yo~

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Take a group of thm and a group of cjn to Zahar'ak and use aoes. Use a parse and see which group does more damage.

All my posts recently are defending what we do know. Flare does DoT damage after being used, making sleepga useless.
An analogy was made to me so I made an analogy that made sense to me.

I am not arguing anymore about what Black Mage will do, cause alot of people are right I don't know yet. I am not saying it's the end of the world. i am only saying that this patch makes me nervous that the job I have been waiting for will not live up to what I would like it to be, which is the highest dps of the classes.

you're only being pesismistic..... try it and we'll see, everything looks good for me.... and who tells you that ancient magic will have same cooldown? play and see, then discuss

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

Flare would be an absolutely dumb spell to use unless you have multiple black mages about to use it and guarantees all the mobs die. Cause if you pull too many like some parties have done and you DoT them and the all live, great they all have dots so they can't be slept. I never said sleepga was useless, I said in that situation sleepga would be useless, never said it was totally useless like Flare will be.

I also complain that if I can't cure myself as the Black Mage role, yes I have necrogenesis and second wind. It irks me that White mage can toss out heals, and be good at dps in certain situations, when it's role is the HEALER. If it's role is to heal now, why the fudge does it get any form of dps that is possibly equal to black mage in any form?

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Just because flare is useless in that certain situation doesn't mean it's useless in all situations. Of course if a blackmage uses flare on a group when it needed to be crowd controlled, that black mage should be asked to... be more careful or make smarter decisions. If the situation was completely different, and the group of mobs was small enough to handle, flare MAY be an awesome spell to use.

The only dmg spell white mages are getting is the one that drains all of their MP. I don't see that spell being very good for most situations. I mean yea they get stone, stonera, aero, and aerora from conjurer, but that's because conjurers wouldn't be able to solo without them. Maybe white mages will have very low magic attack potency compared to conjurers and black mages.

Well theres something that i feel uneasy with the job notes, it says that blm will be able to equip 5 skills from other 2 classes as lvl 50, but i dont see conjurer as base/subclass class... would be dumb not being able to cast any conjurer spell like aero, stone and their tiers, but i assume they will be job friendly, but might be wrong...

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

Take a group of thm and a group of cjn to Zahar'ak and use aoes. Use a parse and see which group does more damage.

All my posts recently are defending what we do know. Flare does DoT damage after being used, making sleepga useless.
An analogy was made to me so I made an analogy that made sense to me.

I am not arguing anymore about what Black Mage will do, cause alot of people are right I don't know yet. I am not saying it's the end of the world. i am only saying that this patch makes me nervous that the job I have been waiting for will not live up to what I would like it to be, which is the highest dps of the classes.

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There's also a few other possibilities that you haven't considered as well.

What if BLM gains more accuracy and MP instead of raw magic attack power? It's DPS would be higher without necessarily bigger numbers. What if the patch actually decreases THM magic power whie making BLM power the same as THM currently has?

For all we know, they could even have made Kobolds stronger. Not to mention what I've already said about videos.

That's why everyone here is saying to wait, at the very least for more information.

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

Take a group of thm and a group of cjn to Zahar'ak and use aoes. Use a parse and see which group does more damage.

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That's only because zaharak mobs are weak to earth and strong to fire lol.

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Originally Posted by Shiggysonson

That's only because zaharak mobs are weak to earth and strong to fire lol.

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Get... Out... OF MY HEAD!

Pretty sure fire gets blown out by wind. But like I said in my original post the only time White mage should out damage a black mage is against the undead. Absolutely nothing else. Which is why original I was made that the elements got split out, but I got over it because Cjn and Thm weren't in roles yet of healer or DD.

Now we are getting jobs for roles, and it looks like White mage could keep damage on any mob weak to stone or aero. And that is bullshit,

Black mage should atleast get all elementals spells with Ga level as well, because it's role is DD and nothing else. It brings absolutely nothing else! While if you look at some other jobs. War Tank or DD, Bard DD or support,
Monk tank or DD, Paladin can really only tank as well but atleast it gets classes that can share useful abilities. Unlike black mage with pug, besides second wind, every other ability is useless to black mage. Dragoon is also only DD, but melee in the long run can out damage black mage because of MP issues. It's supposed to be the highest combo damaging class.

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Originally Posted by Shiggysonson

That's only because zaharak mobs are weak to earth and strong to fire lol.

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I'm pretty sure that's his point. But one would think that BLM, supposedly THE magical damage dealer role, would be stronger in dealing magical damage than a WHM regardless of elemental affinity. However, the video this thread refers to depicts BLM doing the same kind of damage THMs do, so it stands to reason that WHM will do the same amount of damage as CNJ with their respective spells.

Now, if a WHM is able to outdamage a BLM in Zahar'ak, the question then becomes: Why bring a BLM to a Zahar'ak party? WHM will not only outdamage them but can also heal/raise.

This is largely conjecture but it is still a valid point/question based on what information we have been shown/given and should be answered.

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Originally Posted by Wynn

I agree with you, but I also feel that the questions OP raises are valid based on what information they have provided thus far and should be answered.

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The patch comes out in 4 days. Four. Days.

They don't owe us a detailed breakdown of the job stats and some vague statement as to whether BLM will be better than THM when they can just give us the patch and let us play around.

okay so cnj can possibly do more damage in zaharak which clearly matters a whole lot. meanwhile show me a cnj doing 40 dps (or even 30 for that matter) on ifrit? 65+ dps on moogle?

-_-

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

The patch comes out in 4 days. Four. Days.

They don't owe us a detailed breakdown of the job stats and some vague statement as to whether BLM will be better than THM when they can just give us the patch and let us play around.

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You don't get to determine what is response worthy or not. If the community reps feel it is response worthy, they will provide one. If they don't, they don't.

The only thing i would ask from them is if we get as blm all the elemental spells, but i can wait :D

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Originally Posted by Wynn

I agree with you, but I also feel that the questions OP raises are valid based on what information they have provided thus far and should be answered.

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I won't entirely disagree there that based on the "so far," there would be a few questions. I'm thinking big picture and 2.0's success! To me, version 1.xx only needs to remain playable enough that it helps build 2.0 into a powerhouse. That includes this job system implementation, which I'm not too vocal on changes. Let SE do their thing, then we can critique and fix for 2.0