Baldesion Arsenal and new ToS Combo

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

How is Discord not an option for people, if I may ask? Even players on PS4 can use it with the PS4 browser (as was demonstrated in the other BA thread by someone), or they can use a phone, tablet, laptop, or desktop for it. If the argument is introversion/social anxiety, I have a surplus of both and still manage to use Discord. I just stay muted; not a big deal.

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He's trolling lol. He got kicked out of Aether discord for sniping a couple of times.

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Originally Posted by Alucard135

He's trolling lol. He got kicked out of Aether discord for sniping a couple of times.

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Everything makes sense now.

But we’re the mean, nasty elitist control freaks for kicking someone who blatantly broke the rules of the Discord! :D

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

How is Discord not an option for people, if I may ask?

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Maybe because someone just doesn't want use voice tools, or hear other people, or don't understand English. Using third part tool as Discord for organize expeditions is something I have nothing against, your choice and nothing bad about it, but harassing/bad-mouth who doesn't use Discord, I don't subscribe to this.

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

Maybe because someone just doesn't want use voice tools, or hear other people, or don't understand English. Using third part tool as Discord for organize expeditions is something I have nothing against, your choice and nothing bad about it, but harassing/bad-mouth who doesn't use Discord, I don't subscribe to this.

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- talking seems to be never a requirement in chaos BA discord so far.
- altho joining voice chat to listen to the callouts may be mandatory, it is never forced upon to anyone. There are instances where a few players dont join into the voice channel but as long as those players dont mess up mechanic it's all fine.
- well if a player doesnt understand english or any other supported language that's gonna be tough, after all players need to cooperate in order to tackle this /overwhelming/ content.. at least in chaos data center, there exist english, french, spanish, italian, and german discord to organize BA
- I gotta admit that it's quite sad seeing the need of discord as something mandatory to organize this kind of content but it is what it is.. this kind of content needs to be organized somehow in one way or another.

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

Maybe because someone just doesn't want use voice tools, or hear other people, or don't understand English. Using third part tool as Discord for organize expeditions is something I have nothing against, your choice and nothing bad about it, but harassing/bad-mouth who doesn't use Discord, I don't subscribe to this.

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Where was I advocating to bad-mouth or harass individuals that don't use Discord? Nowhere. I don't condone harassing anyone.

Don't act like everyone from the Discords harass non-Discord users though. Quite a few of us stay silent as people hurl insults our way (I was doing this in a Pagos instance I was in yesterday where people were just ripping into anyone who had a single positive thing to say about the Discord or their experience in there).

I merely find it ironic how some claim the Discords are so evil for kicking/banning them... when it turns out that their behavior blatantly broke the biggest Discord rule about respecting other players within the Discord and that's why they were kicked.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Where was I advocating to bad-mouth or harass individuals that don't use Discord? Nowhere. I don't condone harassing anyone.

Don't act like everyone from the Discords harass non-Discord users though. Quite a few of us stay silent as people hurl insults our way (I was doing this in a Pagos instance I was in yesterday where people were just ripping into anyone who had a single positive thing to say about the Discord or their experience in there).

I merely find it ironic how some claim the Discords are so evil for kicking/banning them... when it turns out that their behavior blatantly broke the biggest Discord rule about respecting other players within the Discord and that's why they were kicked.

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thought they said he was kicked for "sniping" not being disrespectful to other players.

which brings up the problem of an outside community/app being the main means of doing in game content. It essentially forces people to follow their rules in order to take part in game content


its fine i suppose, communities will make their own rules, its up to SE to make sure those communities dont gate the activities. So i suppose thats why the portals are free, and they have aether flasks. So outside communities have no tools to block players from content. Other than intimidation i suppose.

I'm just going to blame the poor design of this content.

A system like this was doomed to cause discord among players, and the fact that this content is on the far side of a mindless grind fest really doesn't help matters.

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Originally Posted by Physic

thought they said he was kicked for "sniping" not being disrespectful to other players..

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Sniping is disrespectful to others using discord like them.

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Originally Posted by Alucard135

Sniping is disrespectful to others using discord like them.

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thats subjective. But its the discords right to kick people from their community for whatever reason they choose. Which is why discord should never be the main means of doing anything designed to be public.

but its no big deal, the answer is, just take a portal if its available and you want to do the content. Try your best to succeed and no one can fault you.

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Originally Posted by Physic

thats subjective. But its the discords right to kick people from their community for whatever reason they choose. Which is why discord should never be the main means of doing anything designed to be public.

but its no big deal, the answer is, just take a portal if its available and you want to do the content. Try your best to succeed and no one can fault you.

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There's no subjectivity here. You agree to certain rules when you join a group of people then you have to follow it. Not doing so is disrespectful. Just like agreeing not to loot on something. You gave up that right by agreeing and if you don't follow that agreement, GMs take actions against you.

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Originally Posted by Physic

Which is why discord should never be the main means of doing anything designed to be public.

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Then again something intended to be public should be designed so it doesn't require significant organization beforehand. I haven't been anywhere close to BA myself, but from what I've heard it requires six tanks and six healers to have a hope of succeeding and it's impossible to change classes once inside. Alliance raids are already difficult enough with random, unorganized people and in those the duty finder enforces correct group composition.

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Originally Posted by Physic

thought they said he was kicked for "sniping" not being disrespectful to other players.

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One of the rules of the Discord is that you will not snipe portals from other arsenal groups because it's disrespectful to try and undermine the effort that arsenal group put into getting into the instance for the content. If he wanted to do BA, there are groups in there that run all day, every day, at multiple times. He had plenty of chances to get into a different one; instead, it seems that he chose to just take a portal from someone within another group.

It's considered disrespectful within that Discord to snipe from other arsenal groups - hence why they kicked him. Especially if he did it multiple times.

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Originally Posted by Physic

which brings up the problem of an outside community/app being the main means of doing in game content. It essentially forces people to follow their rules in order to take part in game content

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When you join the Discord to participate in the runs it offers, you agree to follow the rules in the Discord. You break them, and you're kicked from the Discord for it if there are multiple offenses involved. Those within the Discord are held to the rules they agreed to when they joined, and punished if they break them; and this is a problem, how?

The rules are present within the Discord for a reason. They exist to try and keep the community within the server in line; and they're quite necessary in a server with thousands of players in it. With no rules, there would surely be chaos.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

One of the rules of the Discord is that you will not snipe portals from other arsenal groups because it's disrespectful to try and undermine the effort that arsenal group put into getting into the instance for the content. If he wanted to do BA, there are groups in there that run all day, every day, at multiple times. He had plenty of chances to get into a different one; instead, it seems that he chose to just take a portal from someone within another group.

It's considered disrespectful within that Discord to snipe from other arsenal groups - hence why they kicked him. Especially if he did it multiple times.



When you join the Discord to participate in the runs it offers, you agree to follow the rules in the Discord. You break them, and you're kicked from the Discord for it if there are multiple offenses involved. Those within the Discord are held to the rules they agreed to when they joined, and punished if they break them; and this is a problem, how?

The rules are present within the Discord for a reason. They exist to try and keep the community within the server in line; and they're quite necessary in a server with thousands of players in it. With no rules, there would surely be chaos.

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like i said, discord rules are up to discord players to decide. But that basically means that behavior which is fine, and even promoted in game, can lead to exclusion from discord. Which is one of the reasons discord should not be considered the main way to public content.


Which is perfectly fine, thats why they made the portals open and made aether stabilizers a thing. So that any player who wishes to honestly take part in the content can, regardless of outside groups extra game rules or desires to exclude them.


After all this talk, i have come to the conclusion, its fine that discord users organize and set up the way they set up, and its fine that people who dont want to organize that way ignore those rules, and follow game rules. If the majority of the server prefers to abide discords way, thats up to them. If a bunch of people ignore it, its up to them.


If SE doesnt like the way that pans out, its up to them to change the rules one way or the other.

It's funny, almost all of NA/EU's BA problems stem from the fact that NA/EU players insist on doing BA in a way that S-E never intended. There is a reason the JP server groups do not have this chaos, and it's not because they're inherently superior players or anything.

Really, if NA/EU server groups want to avoid all of these BA problems, they need to 1) drop their entitlement (nope, no matter what you do, you don't own portals) and 2) do the content as it was intended (no discord, no premades).

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Originally Posted by Eli85

It's funny, almost all of NA/EU's BA problems stem from the fact that NA/EU players insist on doing BA in a way that S-E never intended. There is a reason the JP server groups do not have this chaos, and it's not because they're inherently superior players or anything.

Really, if NA/EU server groups want to avoid all of these BA problems, they need to 1) drop their entitlement (nope, no matter what you do, you don't own portals) and 2) do the content as it was intended (no discord, no premades).

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Or they can do like me and choose to not do the content at all. This is incredibly terrible game design that has lead to this situation. Who's ready for Eureka 2.0 come SHB? Or should I call it Diadem 4.0?

Can't they work together? Get a premade of 48 then leave 8 spots to be filled by people in the instance that will want to run it with a full group. I'm sure there is enough on the discord to have some members "on hold" should they fail to fill all 8 slots. Those 8 can then be the support or can run from start if one of the premades wants to support. That way you get your premade groups and you leave space for people in the instance who want to run it and you avoid friction and drama. Too much sense?

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Originally Posted by Rhus

Can't they work together? Get a premade of 48 then leave 8 spots to be filled by people in the instance that will want to run it with a full group. I'm sure there is enough on the discord to have some members "on hold" should they fail to fill all 8 slots. Those 8 can then be the support or can run from start if one of the premades wants to support. That way you get your premade groups and you leave space for people in the instance who want to run it and you avoid friction and drama. Too much sense?

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Why should people who pre organized be expected to sacrifice spots? Why should people who just show up respect the premade?

The instance is set up in a way that leads to conflict. People are expected to work together, yet also compete for a limited resource. This is SE's fault.

I disagree the discorda are set up to lead to conflict. The instance is set up to be run perfectly fine. You do ovni, you get primed, you enter BA via a portal. You don't want to risk missing out you use a stabiliser for access. You beat BA you get mount. Simple. Or so it would seem on paper anyway. We seem to have made it worse ourselves, no se

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Originally Posted by Rhus

I disagree the discorda are set up to lead to conflict. The instance is set up to be run perfectly fine. You do ovni, you get primed, you enter BA via a portal. You don't want to risk missing out you use a stabiliser for access. You beat BA you get mount. Simple. Or so it would seem on paper anyway. We seem to have made it worse ourselves, no se

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Let me reiterate. You pull together 100 or so people to open BA. Around half are able to get in. Do you stay to finish the fate or run off ahead to try and grab the portal? If you fail to get into BA what is your incentive to stay for the support fate?

They have set up an environment that is exclusionary by design. The design incentivizes people to behave in ways that Square says they don't want them to behave in. So which should I listen to? Their PR department or the reality of the environment they have created?

If I want to do content with a premade... why can't we just queue in as a premade? Also, why did the content need to be gated behind a hellish grind?

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Originally Posted by Eli85

do the content as it was intended (no discord, no premades).

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Everyone against premades say that, yet they don't do it. I wonder why?

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Originally Posted by WaterShield

Let me reiterate. You pull together 100 or so people to open BA. Around half are able to get in. Do you stay to finish the fate or run off ahead to try and grab the portal? If you fail to get into BA what is your incentive to stay for the support fate?

They have set up an environment that is exclusionary by design. The design incentivizes people to behave in ways that Square says they don't want them to behave in. So which should I listen to? Their PR department or the reality of the environment they have created?

If I want to do content with a premade... why can't we just queue in as a premade? Also, why did the content need to be gated behind a hellish grind?

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because the content is for any players interested, if it becomes premade only its only for certain communities. Which is what discord created in NA. i guess they should have made pre organizing impossible, nor sure thats possible though. We ll see what the next iteration does. Might be fc only again.


edit: also in a anyone can enter meta, the reason to do support is for a chance to get in.

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Originally Posted by Physic

because the content is for any players interested, if it becomes premade only its only for certain communities. Which is what discord created in NA. i guess they should have made pre organizing impossible, nor sure thats possible though. We ll see what the next iteration does. Might be fc only again.

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I think you may be misunderstanding part of what I've said. Why do you believe premade should be made impossible?

I'm directly asking for the ability to preform and then queue directly in BA with no outside interaction with other players.... meaning sniping is now impossible and solo players never have to encounter a premade unless they seek them out.

Alternatively you could solo queue up for it by using... duty finder.

TLDR version: Portals are stupid. PF and DF aren't broken, don't replace them.

Edit: Also people sticking around to fight the game AND EACH OTHER for a second even smaller set of chances to enter content... is terrible. It's not accessible and does not promote cooperation.

BA portals = Hunger Games. "May the odds be ever in your favor"

If SE would simply allow BA Fragments to be obtained outside of BA it would allow people to get the extra elemental defense needed to actually beat BA without having to resort to convoluted Discords.

Currently in order to make BA easier (get fragments and gear up), you have to do BA. That needs to end. There needs to be an alternative way to do it. But this is SE we're talking about here. They take the simplest thing and make it as convoluted as possible then blame the player base: "You're not doing it right".

Get rid of the 56 person dungeon where you can't even see the enemy skills going off.

Get rid of the 56 person dungeon where you're screwed if you are a DOT class due to boss DOT cap.

Re-balance it as a 24 man dungeon.

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Originally Posted by WaterShield

I think you may be misunderstanding part of what I've said. Why do you believe premade should be made impossible?

I'm directly asking for the ability to preform and then queue directly in BA with no outside interaction with other players.... meaning sniping is now impossible and solo players never have to encounter a premade unless they seek them out.

Alternatively you could solo queue up for it by using... duty finder.

TLDR version: Portals are stupid. PF and DF aren't broken, don't replace them.

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pf and df are fine, but they are not trying to be public dungeons. With eureka and BA they were trying to design public instances/dungeons. They wanted content anyone who gets in the instance can attempt, by working with the people there. BA was meant to be an endgame level extension and climax of eureka.

point is the goal wasnt just to create a large scale dungeon, it was to create a public dungeon as an extension of Eureka. The succeeded in japan, they failed in NA.

right now, most people, who arent willing to be hated or ostracized cannot take part in BA without joining a specific community and following their rules. The discord types were meant to be integrated with the randoms.

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Originally Posted by Physic

right now, most people, who arent willing to be hated or ostracized cannot take part in BA without joining a specific community and following their rules. The discord types were meant to be integrated with the randoms.

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The only reason those Discords even became a thing is because SE made it as difficult as possible to organize people into what is supposed to be extremely difficult content.

There's a reason other MMO's such as World of Warcraft abandoned the large raids (40 man). They're a literal pain in the @$$ to organize, prep, and maintain.

The world has moved on, but for some reason, SE decided to go to the past for this iteration of Eureka. They brought some of the worst aspect with them. If people wanted to play FFXI and everything that came with it (good and bad), they's still be playing FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

The only reason those Discords even became a thing is because SE made it as difficult as possible to organize people into what is supposed to be extremely difficult content.

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Wanna hear a joke? Companion app.

ba is not designed that you need to clear BA to progress. Runs are supposed to be firing all the time, making various levels of progress. If you get to twins you get some fragments, if you beat raiden, 12 frag, etc. it is designed that the playerbase makes progress, until eventually, like 24 mans, its easy because people are geared.

the main problem here, is people only do BA in discord, which requires 1-2 hours more set up than BA was designed to have. And use of outside software and voice chat . Many players simply dont have the desire or time to approach it that way.

yes some BA attempts fail to clear, but you still make progress. You definitely dont need a perfect comp to make progress

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

The only reason those Discords even became a thing is because SE made it as difficult as possible to organize people into what is supposed to be extremely difficult content.

There's a reason other MMO's such as World of Warcraft abandoned the large raids (40 man). They're a literal pain in the @$$ to organize, prep, and maintain.

The world has moved on, but for some reason, SE decided to go to the past for this iteration of Eureka. They brought some of the worst aspect with them.

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Thank you!

This person gets it.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

The only reason those Discords even became a thing is because SE made it as difficult as possible to organize people into what is supposed to be extremely difficult content.

There's a reason other MMO's such as World of Warcraft abandoned the large raids (40 man). They're a literal pain in the @$$ to organize, prep, and maintain.

The world has moved on, but for some reason, SE decided to go to the past for this iteration of Eureka. They brought some of the worst aspect with them. If people wanted to play FFXI and everything that came with it (good and bad), they's still be playing FFXI.

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you dont need to organize for BA. you are supposed to jump in, then organize based on what you have in there. Thats why there is a lobby area. Sometimes you are going to beat it and sometimes you wont, you re enter and try again, and you do events and grind if you lose exp. Its not that hard, people do it 2-3 times and they learn.

the NA mindset is that they are supposed to pre organize, you are literally not supposed to, that is why its so hard to pre organize, its not supposed to happen.

its the same reason overpasses are too low for large trucks, its because they didnt want large trucks on those roads. Its hard for premades because its not supposed to have premades.

this is not like 40 man wow raids, because its not supposed to be a group organizing a raid, its supposed to be a natural extension of people in the instance, like fates are.

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Originally Posted by Physic

you dont need to organize for BA. you are supposed to jump in, then organize based on what you have in there. Thats why there is a lobby area. Sometimes you are going to beat it and sometimes you wont, you re enter and try again, and you do events and grind if you lose exp. Its not that hard, people do it 2-3 times and they learn.

the NA mindset is that they are supposed to pre organize, you are literally not supposed to, that is why its so hard to pre organize, its not supposed to happen.

its the same reason overpasses are too low for large trucks, its because they didnt want large trucks on those roads. Its hard for premades because its not supposed to have premades.

this is not like 40 man wow raids, because its not supposed to be a group organizing a raid, its supposed to be a natural extension of people in the instance, like fates are.

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You've been saying this for days. Can you explain to us how a raid that only gets 4 tanks and 5 healers is supposed to kill Ozma?

Or is it your perception that some raids are doomed to fail due to an untenable comp and we should just live with that?

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Originally Posted by Adrestia

You've been saying this for days. Can you explain to us how a raid that only gets 4 tanks and 5 healers is supposed to kill Ozma?

Or is it your perception that some raids are doomed to fail due to an untenable comp and we should just live with that?

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SE wants to prolong the life of the content with this way. It's up to people if they wanna play into that or find a shortcut.

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Originally Posted by Alucard135

SE wants to prolong the life of the content with this way. It's up to people if they wanna play into that or find a shortcut.

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I guess the sad thing is how believable that is. If you can't make it hard, make it frustrating.

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Originally Posted by Adrestia

I guess the sad thing is how believable that is. If you can't make it hard, make it frustrating.

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Sadly that's starting to become SE's motto.