Make relics have the same iLVL as the Raid weapons and released at the same time

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Originally Posted by Arg0n

Actually there is no Relic-weapon, just an "Eureka-weapon".

And yes, they Eureka-Weapon ist weak, it should be about ~385 same as the primal-weapon. (higher wouldn't be fair for raiders)

But raid-gear should always be the best gear, at least for ~2 months. :)

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I totally disagree. I feel like they need to make Relics harder to obtain but also make them the best weapons available. Anyone can learn a dungeon and get a drop relatively quickly as it depends on your luck. Relics should be rare, for those who push themselves to get it. They should also be able to be upgraded with new expansion packs/updates. Kind of like FFXI.

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Originally Posted by RyoXander

I totally disagree. I feel like they need to make Relics harder to obtain but also make them the best weapons available. Anyone can learn a dungeon and get a drop relatively quickly as it depends on your luck. Relics should be rare, for those who push themselves to get it. They should also be able to be upgraded with new expansion packs/updates. Kind of like FFXI.

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I’d only agree with Relics being “the best” if they required the hardest content in the game to complete. Currently, they don’t, so they don’t need to be “the best”. As time consuming as relic steps can be, they still don’t take nearly the same amount of effort to do as clearing Savage raids do.

As for previous weapons being upgradable through expansion, I don’t have any issue with that. But it could pose a problem for those who haven’t been playing since launch and who haven’t done previous steps. As nerfed as the ARR relic is now, it can still be annoying waiting 20 years for that one FATE in your current book. So adjustments would probably have to be made if we were to shift to a design were prior relics are used for upgrades in new expansions.

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Originally Posted by RyoXander

I totally disagree. I feel like they need to make Relics harder to obtain but also make them the best weapons available. Anyone can learn a dungeon and get a drop relatively quickly as it depends on your luck. Relics should be rare, for those who push themselves to get it. They should also be able to be upgraded with new expansion packs/updates. Kind of like FFXI.

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No. If you want FFXI mechanics, go play FFXI. That's not this game, and that's not what relics should be in this game.

People really need to stop trying to jam FFXI's mechanics into this game. "This game should be FFXI-2" is exactly why Eureka was developed and why it sucks so bad.

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Originally Posted by Tint

I need the weapon to kill things faster. Okay, you won this time, since Eureka has an ilvl synch, but in general I grind content to get better gear to kill things faster to speed up the grind. There is also more stuff to grind than just Eureka.

Of course I also need it for satisfaction, getting a nice reward at the end of all that grind just feels better. I mean raiders don't need a weapon from turn 4 either, they already have cleared the highest content and you can't progress the next tier with it because of the ilvl increase. So why is the reward for clearing turn 4 of a current raidtier a rel weapon instead of a glamour one?

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The way I see it bis weapon drop from turn 4 raid is a gear boost to help out in future raid content? Having your entire raid static aquiring turn 4 raid weapon makes it easier to clear and kill the next raid tier thats released. It is extremely helpfull for re-killing and farming the bosses for the rest of your gear / mount as well. Its a high end reward for high end play wich helps with high end content farming and future progress.

This is not about winning, this is about rewarding different players with different loot and rewards viable and sensible for the content they are doing. You are not partaking in endgame raiding, you dont need it. You are literally admitting you just want it because. Well then get to raiding? Theres been times in my life where I had to quit raiding for periods of time sometimes up towards a year or more. And I never complained about not having bis gear and not having acces to rewards and content exclusive for those dedicated and hard working enough to clear said content.

Sorry but your "just cause" reason is hogwash. You dont deserve it, you dont need it, if you want it you know what you have to do. And if you dont have time or oportunity to do so then too bad thats life.

You dont see me complain I dont get paid as much as my boss at work irl. Different rewards for different work. If I was to get as much or more money paid out then my boss, then my boss would feel cheated and possibly quit to work at ground level and make more. When it comes to gear incentives in MMOs it works the same way for anyone who remotely cares about character growth and strength. If you get the best gear for doing less then why do more? It wont encourage growth or motivate people INTO raiding, most likely it would demotivate alot of people from raiding endgame even if they can. Basicly diminishing the allready small minority dedicated raiding comunity.

And again you and others are asking for this "cause I wants it Q_Q"

You know what the reward is, you know what you have to do to get it. Go do it or stop complaining. And unless you have any valid or logical points to properly discuss and further your case I would highly recomend you dont engage in further talks about this. You come of as very whiny, immature and spoiled.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

As time consuming as relic steps can be, they still don’t take nearly the same amount of effort to do as clearing Savage raids do.

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I'd say it varies depending on your skill level. I've lost count of how many people I've seen with Omega and Ultima weapons in Pagos. In fact, I'd say for those people the raids might be easier. At least for gearing purposes.

However, I DO agree with the sentiment that the relics should be all powerful weapons, and if the difficulty to get them needs to be increased to compensate, then so be it. Stuff like Eureka defeats the entire point of Relics. Handing them out like candy after the worst and soulless grinds imaginable is not the way to go.

If anything, we need to go back to having trials like Chimera and Hydra and having to procure trinkets from the toughest bosses to move on. For all you people about to whine that "nooo, that's too hard and unfair"; suck it the hell up and get good. The EX primal weapons are good enough for you.

I'm an adventurer dammit, I'm not content with the roaming bard farting out some dream weapon or however the hell we get savage weapons these days. I want to go on a grand journey and traverse all kinds of hazards and trials to end up with something worth telling a story about. If said trials just happen to involve said farting bard's creations then so be it. Make relics mean something dammit.

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Originally Posted by Aquaslash

I'd say it varies depending on your skill level. I've lost count of how many people I've seen with Omega and Ultima weapons in Pagos. In fact, I'd say for those people the raids might be easier. At least for gearing purposes.

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In terms of the effort it takes to clear Savage, the amount is greater. The Final Omega most definitely takes far more effort to do compared to Pagos; there really is no comparison there. Alphascape is actually challenging; Pagos is brain-dead. I’m speaking about the amount of effort, not the amount of time.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

In terms of the effort it takes to clear Savage, the amount is greater. The Final Omega most definitely takes far more effort to do compared to Pagos; there really is no comparison there. Alphascape is actually challenging; Pagos is brain-dead. I’m speaking about the amount of effort, not the amount of time.

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While I get what you're saying, both can take effort, what would be more accurate is savage takes more skill. If I told you I'd give you an i400 weapon for clearing Savage or for gathering 10,000 fish, both do take effort, one in pushing yourself to do something challenging the other in requiring you to repeat a mundane task an absurd amount of times. You're not just committing time at that point, you're having to make an effort to endure the length of the task.

At that point it becomes a question of what's worth more, skill or time, yes it takes time to be good at something but less for some more for others, an argument could be made that if a relic really was this massive undertaking, not something you could chip away at and eventually get, but something that took so much time that you had to dedicate yourself to it, should it be as powerful?

Skill Vs Time, I feel both can have value and I don't really see anything wrong with there being more than one way to the top, yes some people can't raid but some simply do not wish to and would like another means to acquire that power.

For arguments sake lets say it takes the average person X amount of hours to beat savage and then get their weapon, if someone is willing to work for longer even if the tasks their being asked to do are not as difficult but their willing to put in an equatable amount of effort vs the skill savage players are putting in I don't see a problem with the relic being the same ilvl.

At the end of the day Savage is harder and gives you the accomplishment of having done it, there are people who get their friends to carry them through it, or even buy themselves clears to obtain the same rewards, that however dose not take away from those of you who earned it, neither should someone who chose to take a longer but easier path up the mountain you sprinted up.

That said, as I said above I feel the relic would have to be this very long and slow journey if they decided to do that, it should be time consuming enough that you'd need to commit to it in order to do it, not something you could easily acquire while having time to do other things, if you wanted the power more quickly that should be the incentive to try your hand a raiding.

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Originally Posted by RhonanEastarian

This is not about winning, this is about rewarding different players with different loot and rewards viable and sensible for the content they are doing. You are not partaking in endgame raiding, you dont need it. You are literally admitting you just want it because. Well then get to raiding?

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I don't want to be rewarded for raids, I don't like raiding. I want to be rewarded for grinding, because that's what I like doing. I said earlier that the relic don't has to be as good as the raidweapon, but it should be better than the tomestone weapon!

By the way I still have not seen a proper reason why the raidweapon has to be the best weapon in the game, other than "just because". And no, you are not using it to progress the next raid tier. You throw the weapon away and get the new crafted or ex trial weapon.

Chunk off a few seconds from a monster you grind can make a huge difference when you kill thousands of these things. It's as viable as a reason to have a better weapons as doing speedruns and stuff. But in the end it's both "just because".

Grinding and raiding can co-exist, but as long as the tomestone weapon is so easily obtainable and on the same, or even higher level of the relic, what's the point of grinding for the relic?

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Originally Posted by RhonanEastarian

You know what the reward is, you know what you have to do to get it. Go do it or stop complaining. And unless you have any valid or logical points to properly discuss and further your case I would highly recomend you dont engage in further talks about this. You come of as very whiny, immature and spoiled.

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lol

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Originally Posted by Tint

I don't want to be rewarded for raids, I don't like raiding. I want to be rewarded for grinding, because that's what I like doing. I said earlier that the relic don't has to be as good as the raidweapon, but it should be better than the tomestone weapon!

By the way I still have not seen a proper reason why the raidweapon has to be the best weapon in the game, other than "just because". And no, you are not using it to progress the next raid tier. You throw the weapon away and get the new crafted or ex trial weapon.

Chunk off a few seconds from a monster you grind can make a huge difference when you kill thousands of these things. It's as viable as a reason to have a better weapons as doing speedruns and stuff. But in the end it's both "just because".

Grinding and raiding can co-exist, but as long as the tomestone weapon is so easily obtainable and on the same, or even higher level of the relic, what's the point of grinding for the relic?

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Finaly you make some actuall points I can understand and that makes sense. Tho your "gotcha" way of discussing is annoying to me I can see where you are coming from now.

So basicly on the ground level of things we actually agree and want the same thing. We both want to partake in our own content without feeling forced to do content we dont want to do and not feel like we are performing worse due to not partaking in said content.

Taken my time to think about it, the only way for both of us to be contempt as well as most of the playerbase (I am speculating and not speaking on the behalf of everyone here) would be to further split apart the gear rewards for different content.

How about this, different contents gear rewards giving you passives, stat or ilvl buffs for partaking in the content you are doing. Example, Eureka weapon having 405ilvl and giving you a passive buff either to your spells/skills or a flat stat buff whenever you are inside Eureka or doing open world content like hunts. fates or beast tribe quests etc.

405ilvl raid weapon doing the same for raid and trial duties.

And then you can have the tomestone weapon beeing uppgradeable to 405ilvl and start at 390ilvl without any passive buffs making it the generic weapon good for both but not the best?

This would personalise the rewards to whatever content you are doing while also giving a middle down the road tome weapon reward to help progression with both and not mess with the current gear progression curve for raiders?

A philosophy in MMO game design that I am personaly a big fan off. Giving multiple options for different players and rewards relevant to the content they are partaking in.

I am tempted to further discuss our points that we had, but I dont think it would go anywhere. Its more down to a different point of view from different players, and I`d rather enjoy speculating about possible solutions or changes to the game to make players more happy now that you have given me your point of view and I can actually understand where you are coming from. There is no reason why raiding weapon should be the best for grinding or vise versa. At best you could make the "raiders put more effort inn" aproach but even then effort can both be meassured in skill and time investment.

PS: Ultimate weapons imo should allways be bis for their relevant tier as it requires a way higher time and skill investment then all other content. If you beat ultimate while its current content you deserve to smash any other content you want with a OP weapon for a while.

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Originally Posted by RyoXander

[...] best weapons available [...] for those who push themselves to get it [...]

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That's... basically raiding. Like literally. You push yourself through the content to get the best weapon.

just make everything available at the start of the patch rather then dragging patches out. who cares about ilvl it only matters for ultimate anyways.

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Originally Posted by Tint

I just want to point out again that you get a 390 tomestone weapon for basically no effort. How is that fair for people who are grinding the relic?

Yes, raid gear should be the best gear (for a while), but 385 is too weak. Why not 395? You still have the 400 and 405 weapons from raids wich are both better.

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Why do you need a higher ilevel when you're not doing content that requires it.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Why do you need a higher ilevel when you're not doing content that requires it.

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“Muh numbers! I want bigger!”

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Why do you need a higher ilevel when you're not doing content that requires it.

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I agree, for the record, but to play devil's advocate nothing requires higher than an i380 weapon to complete it so why even have higher ilevels if that's the case?

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Why do you need a higher ilevel when you're not doing content that requires it.

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Why do you care? Item levels end up about the same in the end anyway, with maybe a 5 item level difference on the weapons and maybe 1 accessory. People like their characters to get stronger. I'm assuming that's partly why people do higher end content to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Lumis_Arvalo

but to play devil's advocate nothing requires higher than an i380 weapon to complete it so why even have higher ilevels if that's the case?

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^

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Why do you care? Item levels end up about the same in the end anyway, with maybe a 5 item level difference on the weapons and maybe 1 accessory. People like their characters to get stronger. I'm assuming that's partly why people do higher end content to begin with.

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I care because rewards should scale with difficulty. Watching netflix while grinding out fate trains isn't difficult. You really want to play a game where people can bot their way to the best item level? I sure don't.

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Originally Posted by Lumis_Arvalo

but to play devil's advocate nothing requires higher than an i380 weapon to complete it so why even have higher ilevels if that's the case?

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If you have an exceptionally talented group then that's true. Otherwise the majority needs the cushion provided by higher level gear to have a decent chance of clearing.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I care because rewards should scale with difficulty. Watching netflix while grinding out fate trains isn't difficult. You really want to play a game where people can bot their way to the best item level? I sure don't.

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I agree with your point but what about the fact that people can get carried through hard content to higher item levels? They're not putting in effort but still reaping rewards.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Why do you care? Item levels end up about the same in the end anyway, with maybe a 5 item level difference on the weapons and maybe 1 accessory. People like their characters to get stronger. I'm assuming that's partly why people do higher end content to begin with.

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To clarify my point, I believe that the hardest difficulty content (raiding) should give the best reward in terms of power. Grinding out a relic or doing tomestone grinding isn't as difficult honestly, and thus should have a lower ilevel until pre-expansion when ilevels are getting reset anyways. My point was more that if ilevel beyond the base isn't actually a requirement for defeating the hardest content in the game, then the counterpoint of "why do you need a higher ilevel for content you aren't doing" is irrelevant because no one really "needs" it.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

If you have an exceptionally talented group then that's true. Otherwise the majority needs the cushion provided by higher level gear to have a decent chance of clearing.

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My counterpoint: find a better group and get better at the game then.

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Originally Posted by Zephera

I agree with your point but what about the fact that people can get carried through hard content to higher item levels? They're not putting in effort but still reaping rewards.

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You can't control what people do with their time/money. All that can be done is trying to make a system that's fair for everyone to participate in. I think we have a fair system in place so this is kinda side-stepping the topic of whether relics should have the same item level as raid weapons upon release. Paying for a carry or botting through Eureka are of equal offense, but thankfully they are far from the norm.

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Originally Posted by Lumis_Arvalo

My counterpoint: find a better group and get better at the game then.

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If we didn't have the option of getting better gear, then yea, that's what we'd all be stuck working on.

they better be have higher ilvl than new tomes gear because it is easy to get. With amount work it take to upgrade them they better be ilvl of 400.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

You can't control what people do with their time/money. All that can be done is trying to make a system that's fair for everyone to participate in. I think we have a fair system in place so this is kinda side-stepping the topic of whether relics should have the same item level as raid weapons upon release. Paying for a carry or botting through Eureka are of equal offense, but thankfully they are far from the norm.

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Only bought it up as the argument from both sides seems mainly to be based around reward for effort made. It's a pretty subjective topic though, people have different standards for what constitutes effort, whether it be through raw difficulty or time consumed.

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Originally Posted by Kazgrel

“Muh numbers! I want bigger!”

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Exactly.

That's what I pay my sub for, to run the never ending treadmill of increasing the numbers.

On a sidenote I think it's funny how people say "you don't need higher item level" but on the other hand "you need to improve" to deal more dps so a expert run doesn't take 30 mins. So I should improve to deal more dps but run around in the minimum item level I need to enter?

Increasing the numbers helps in every content, not only in raids. And stopping to increase the numbers means also to stop to improve your character and this leads to stop playing the game.

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Originally Posted by Tint

Exactly.

That's what I pay my sub for, to run the never ending treadmill of increasing the numbers.

On a sidenote I think it's funny how people say "you don't need higher item level" but on the other hand "you need to improve" to deal more dps so a expert run doesn't take 30 mins. So I should improve to deal more dps but run around in the minimum item level I need to enter?

Increasing the numbers helps in every content, not only in raids. And stopping to increase the numbers means also to stop to improve your character and this leads to stop playing the game.

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Nah, good gear doesn't equal good damage. Bad rotation is still bad. I'll take a raider that has an undergeared alt over an overgeared casual player any day.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I care because rewards should scale with difficulty. Watching netflix while grinding out fate trains isn't difficult. You really want to play a game where people can bot their way to the best item level? I sure don't.

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If you're going by item levels and power, casual players can end up getting equally powerful gear with little effort in the form of tome gear. The biggest difference between raiding and tome gear is maybe some optimal stats (maybe), +5 on a raiding weapon compared to another, and maybe 1 accessory, probably a ring unless they give us another Proto Ultima-style fight. It just takes a bit longer, but certainly doesn't require much effort to get tome gear and upgrade them fully. This isn't accounting for BiS this and that, mind you, but as far as item level and power goes they are all but one in the same. Raiders just get there sooner.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Nah, good gear doesn't equal good damage. Bad rotation is still bad. I'll take a raider that has an undergeared alt over an overgeared casual player any day.

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Bad players will be bad, that much I can agree with. Gear won't help them. However, raiders themselves can potentially be bad. Don't judge a book by its cover.

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Originally Posted by Tint

Exactly.

That's what I pay my sub for, to run the never ending treadmill of increasing the numbers.

On a sidenote I think it's funny how people say "you don't need higher item level" but on the other hand "you need to improve" to deal more dps so a expert run doesn't take 30 mins. So I should improve to deal more dps but run around in the minimum item level I need to enter?

Increasing the numbers helps in every content, not only in raids. And stopping to increase the numbers means also to stop to improve your character and this leads to stop playing the game.

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...assuming you're referring to me, you understand I was intentionally presenting a conflicting view to make a point, yes? I was refuting the claim that item level doesn't matter for content you aren't doing by pointing out that if that is the case item level as a mechanic shouldn't exist because everyone can potentially do everything in the bare minimum.

Welp, this isn't the discussion I wanted to do anyway.

What I want is that the relic weapon doesn't get butchered by the tomestone weapon. I actually don't care how strong the relic is in correlation to the raid weapon.

You have to invest 5 hours, spread over 7 weeks, to get the tomestone weapon.

For getting the 1000 tomes you have to run expert roulette 11 times. To reach the weekly cap of 450 you need 5 experts. Capping stones for 2 weeks and run expert one more time in week 3. This grants you 990 tomes, you will get the last 10 from clearing Alphascape 4 normal.
One expert takes 20 minutes. 11 runs x 20 minutes = 220 minutes.

You have to clear Alphascape 4 normal 7 times. How long does a run take? 10 minutes? So it's 7 runs x 10 minutes = 70 minutes.

220 + 70 = 290. Let's round it to 300 and that is 5 hours.

5 hours of work spread over 7 weeks is like not playing the game at all. That's also less than 2 timers in Eureka.

So why is the relic, wich needs a huge time investment, not actually better than a weapon wich is handed out almost for free? Okay, the relic has 3 materia slots more, but that's still underwhelming when you compare the amount of work to get these two weapons.

Tomestone gear in general is just too good and makes other gear options irrelevant. Why get the gear from normal mode raid and 24 man raids, or the relic gear, when you can just wait for weekly reset and buy the better tomestone stuff? Yeah casual players should not fall behind, I get it.

But I actually want to play this game, not just running 5 experts and wait for reset, and I am not a raider. Why is there no real option for people like me, wich doesn't feel like a huge waste of time because tomestone gear outclasses everything except the savage raid gear anyway? (and even that is arguably since it will have the same item level in the end)
Where is my carrot on a stick? :O

relic is messed up this whole expansion because Eureka was fumbled so badly. It will keep upgrading and eventually be the best while tomestone gear will always get outdated

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Originally Posted by Tint

Exactly.

That's what I pay my sub for, to run the never ending treadmill of increasing the numbers.

On a sidenote I think it's funny how people say "you don't need higher item level" but on the other hand "you need to improve" to deal more dps so a expert run doesn't take 30 mins. So I should improve to deal more dps but run around in the minimum item level I need to enter?

Increasing the numbers helps in every content, not only in raids. And stopping to increase the numbers means also to stop to improve your character and this leads to stop playing the game.

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When I can queue into Ridorana as a tank and be top five in DPS, gear is not the issue.

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Originally Posted by Tint

Okay, the relic has 3 materia slots more, but that's still underwhelming when you compare the amount of work to get these two weapons.

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And Ultimate weapons only have one extra materia slot over the raid weapon. I guess it's the same idea; the weapon is a bragging rights (This is my reward for my hard work) weapon moreso than a useful one.

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Originally Posted by Tint

So why is the relic, wich needs a huge time investment, not actually better than a weapon wich is handed out almost for free? Okay, the relic has 3 materia slots more, but that's still underwhelming when you compare the amount of work to get these two weapons.

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Because tomestones have a weekly cap. You can get your eureka weapon in a few days if you're crazy enough. Also, the tomestone weapon competes with the other tomestone gear because, again, tomestones are limited. Personally, I wouldn't touch the tomestone weapon with the end of a stick. It would just delay my BiS and the possibility to try other jobs in savage.

And as already said by Whiskey and Cassandra, gear is not very relevant for your numbers if you don't know your job's rotation and how to adapt to different encounters. I've seen ilvl 380+ players in expert roulettes being outdpsed by healers and tanks. Gear won't help those players.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

You can get your eureka weapon in a few days if you're crazy enough.

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Apparently, the players going into Pagos on release just weren't crazy enough, seeing as they didn't get their weapons "in a few days".

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

And as already said by Whiskey and Cassandra, gear is not very relevant for your numbers if you don't know your job's rotation and how to adapt to different encounters. I've seen ilvl 380+ players in expert roulettes being outdpsed by healers and tanks. Gear won't help those players.

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This can go both ways. If gear is only relevant to a player's numbers once they know their rotation, then what's the big deal of non-raiding players spending more time overall to obtain gear that's very close to raid gear?
You'd always have the relevancy of numbers and knowledge to set the raiders apart from the rest, after all!

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

This can go both ways. If gear is only relevant to a player's numbers once they know their rotation, then what's the big deal of non-raiding players spending more time overall to obtain gear that's very close to raid gear?
You'd always have the relevancy of numbers and knowledge to set the raiders apart from the rest, after all!

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I think Lastelli’s point is made towards the posters in this thread (and others) that claim they “want better gear for better damage”—if your damage is bad with low gear because you don’t know a basic opener or proper rotation, getting better gear is not going to improve your damage. Your foundation isn’t solid enough to hold up the walls you’re trying to build on it. That, and a lot of people seem to think it’s necessary to have “the best gear” when the most they do is run dungeons and maybe the occasional 8-man or 24-man. They can have it, but they don’t need to act like it’s necessary to the content they’re doing—it’s only necessary for those who participate in the 1% (speedruns, optimization runs, and Ultimate).

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I think Lastelli’s point is made towards the posters in this thread (and others) that claim they “want better gear for better damage”—if your damage is bad with low gear because you don’t know a basic opener or proper rotation, getting better gear is not going to improve your damage. Your foundation isn’t solid enough to hold up the walls you’re trying to build on it. That, and a lot of people seem to think it’s necessary to have “the best gear” when the most they do is run dungeons and maybe the occasional 8-man or 24-man. They can have it, but they don’t need to act like it’s necessary to the content they’re doing—it’s only necessary for those who participate in the 1% (speedruns, optimization runs, and Ultimate).

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Again I am fine with the raidgear is BiS, but the relic should be a step above of the tomeweapon. Having the best gear (or better gear) of course is not necessary to clear the easier content, but it is necessary to justify the long relic grind (wich gets longer and longer with every added step).

And more damage is more damage. I never said that people who don't know their rotation can deal high dps with better gear, what I wanted to point out is that when you care about people with low dps, why only care about their rotation and not their gear? Both will increase their dps.
I mean: You apparently don't need a proper rotaion to clear the content, so why care about improving?

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Originally Posted by Tint

And more damage is more damage. I never said that people who don't know their rotation can deal high dps with better gear, what I wanted to point out is that when you care about people with low dps, why only care about their rotation and not their gear? Both will increase their dps.

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If a BLM in full i400 gear only does an ice mage rotation or something even worse than that, it doesn’t matter what their gear is. A BLM in i380 gear doing a proper rotation will do more damage—and not just a couple hundred... they will do a couple thousand more—which will make them more valuable to a party despite their lesser gear. Because the party isn’t having to carry them and work harder to make up the difference in damage.

Same for tanks and healers—who cares if one tank is BiS if they can’t maintain aggro or rotate their cooldowns? Why take them over a tank in lesser gear who does rotate cooldowns and properly manage aggro? Who cares if the healer is in BiS but they can’t keep the party alive? Why take them over a healer in crafted gear that can both outheal and outDPS the other healer?


Better gear will only make a difference if you have a good, solid rotation. You can only make the most out of your new, better gear if you understand the basics of your job. As I said, you need a good foundation before you start building a house on it. A house without a good foundation will be shaky at best, and fall more often than not.

You look at both factors; you don’t just ignore one for the other, and that goes both ways—high gear/low damage and low gear/high damage. You look at all of the factors, and I never said that you didn’t or shouldn’t. You don’t just ignore low damage because “they have high item level gear”, just like you don’t ignore another player with high damage because “they are in the crafted stuff”. First thing I look at when I see a player doing low damage is what their gear is. And I usually see them in current gear; sometimes even better gear than myself. Yet, my numbers are higher. Further analysis usually shows errors in their rotation, or a lack of active time in battle (not necessarily deaths, but things like waiting several seconds between GCDs to use skills, so that their CPM is lower and they aren’t keeping their GCD rolling while on a boss).

My all-time favorite instance of showing that better gear doesn’t matter if you don’t know the basics was during a Shinryu Ex farm group. A MCH in i330/i340 gear was berating a MNK in the i320 crafted for being the reason that we were seeing second Aerial Blast (lol) because he was in “crap gear”. Yet, the MCH was being outDPS’d by both tanks with zero deaths and the MNK was top DPS. So, who was the real problem there? Certainly not the MNK in i320.

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Originally Posted by Tint

I mean: You apparently don't need a proper rotaion to clear the content, so why care about improving?

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That doesn’t make it okay to force other players to carry you. And just because the content doesn’t require even 50% doesn’t mean that you should play at 25%. Because the people that play at 25% may eventually wander into content where you do need more than even 50%. And they are still play at 25%. And they think that’s still okay when it really isn’t, and then get angry at people for removing them from the party (there was a thread someone made here about being “wrongfully kicked” from a V2S group for low damage where they did less than the tank in the party).

This is also the exact mindset that a lot of people that want carries have. And it’s a poor mindset to have; so hopefully they don’t have a problem when people see they clearly don’t care about being a burden to their group and remove them to find someone who will have a bit of respect for their teammates.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

This is also the exact mindset that a lot of people that want carries have. And it’s a poor mindset to have; so hopefully they don’t have a problem when people see they clearly don’t care about being a burden to their group and remove them to find someone who will have a bit of respect for their teammates.

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Yeah, and I wanted to point out that "you don't need the best gear to clear the content" is the same mindset as "you don't need a proper rotation to clear the content."

Shouldn't we try to improve both? Rotation AND gear?

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Originally Posted by Tint

Yeah, and I wanted to point out that "you don't need the best gear to clear the content" is the same mindset as "you don't need a proper rotation to clear the content."

Shouldn't we try to improve both? Rotation AND gear?

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You’ve obviously misinterpreted my statement discussing necessity.

Saying something isn’t necessary is not saying that you cannot desire it, and that you cannot desire improvement. But people act as if it is absolutely necessary to have the best gear ever in their Expert Roulettes, and that they are entitled to have it, when it is simply overkill for the content. That is an objective statement, and, quite frankly, a fact.

And it’s not like I don’t have an issue with gear being irrelevant in all but 1% of activities. I’d rather content be scaled to where I don’t make it roll in gear from previous patches or tiers—but then, suddenly, everything is “too hard”. I’d rather the minimum item level for the current dungeons be ~i370 and them hit hard enough to where they don’t roll over in i360. Make the gear relevant; because right now it is irrelevant. I did both Expert dungeons and the entirety of Alphascape normal mode in i360 gear. I didn’t even have i380 crafted gear. And they rolled over. That shouldn’t be okay. My i380 gear shouldn’t be unnecessary for the content, but it is. Which is what I was saying—not that you should be okay with being below average.


I believe there is also a difference between “you don’t need i400 for this fight; you can clear it easily in i380” and “you don’t need to perform a basic rotation in this content; others can easily carry you through it with you only spamming one ability”. One is clearly a far bigger detriment than the other, and it’s not the gear; so I don’t find them to be equal statements.

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Originally Posted by HakaseNyan

Let's face it: Gerolt's lost his touch

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When he was heavy drinking is when he did his best work.

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Originally Posted by Lumis_Arvalo

No. If you want FFXI mechanics, go play FFXI. That's not this game, and that's not what relics should be in this game.

People really need to stop trying to jam FFXI's mechanics into this game. "This game should be FFXI-2" is exactly why Eureka was developed and why it sucks so bad.

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I never mentioned anything about wanting this game to be exactly like FFXI so calm down. However this game does need improving in some ways which FFXI happened to do better. The Relic weapon system was one of them. Until the last few years where the game became excessively easy, Relic weapons were extremely rare to find. That's how they should be. Meant for only the most dedicated of players to obtain.

I suggest that the final requirement in obtaining the fully upgraded Relic for it to be BiS (on top of the crazy grinding) should be having to trade in the highest ilvl raid weapon, amongst other things. That way you wont be able to skip the toughest end game material.

Doing so will allow you to continuously work towards your relic after every patch and at the end, you will have a weapon that is far stronger than any other option because it will be the culmination of years worth of effort.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

Apparently, the players going into Pagos on release just weren't crazy enough, seeing as they didn't get their weapons "in a few days".!

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I know a number of people who had their first elemental weapon within a week of Pagos dropping. I'll agree that's not the "norm", but let's not act like these people don't exist.

Bottom line is that the tomestome weapon is higher ilevel because it takes 7 weeks of real-world time for a non-raider to get for a single class (which can't be circumvented without raiding), while the relic weapon can theoretically be obtained by a non-raider very quickly and at their own pace. Does the relic require more effort put into it to get? Absolutely, but the time-gating is the big factor here as the tomestone weapon is intended to be a long-term carrot-on-the-stick for non-raiders that keeps them subbed.

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Originally Posted by RyoXander

I suggest that the final requirement in obtaining the fully upgraded Relic for it to be BiS (on top of the crazy grinding) should be having to trade in the highest ilvl raid weapon, amongst other things. That way you wont be able to skip the toughest end game material.

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So you want a weapon that was designed to be for casual players to grind out over time to be gated behind items that come from raid content, and thus be for raiders? That's... really dumb. That's not what the relic is supposed to be in this game. If that's how it was in FFXI and you enjoyed that, then go back to FFXI. That system sounds terrible for a game like this.

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Originally Posted by RyoXander

I suggest that the final requirement in obtaining the fully upgraded Relic for it to be BiS (on top of the crazy grinding) should be having to trade in the highest ilvl raid weapon, amongst other things. That way you wont be able to skip the toughest end game material.

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I would be totally favorable to a relic that requires a very light grind, but also requires to complete the hardest content in the game. In that case, there wouldn't be anything wrong with a BiS relic. Unfortunately, the dev team wants the relic to be locked behind content that anyone can easily clear, so that's not going to happen.