Seriously, If You're Only Going To Create Designs For Women, Just Genderlock

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

To me the hangup about the Ao Dai is weird. You're taking it's irl equivalent and applying it to a fictitious example. Ao Dai are not any more bound by irl examples than anything else in Eorzea. Look at the physics. That place is not earth.

---

Are you saying that the actual women's Ao Dai that the devs put in is okay but asking for the men's version of the Ao Dai to be added is wrong because it's not Earth? Seriously? We're doing this again?

Quote:

---

I feel like this could devolve into the same core discussion that your race baiting thread did where the base argument is whether or not Eorzea needs an injection of irl realism. I am of the mind that it does not. I can separate the two. Just because men don't really wear that sort of sweater that much in today's fashion doesn't make it feminine.

---

That wasn't even my thread.. don't put that on me lol. But based on that are you saying feminine things on men in RL aren't feminine on men in-game to you? Or just the sweater?

Quote:

---

Also, not to beat the dead horse, but that sweater is a cable knit sweater. I supervised buyers for a major retail company for several of the last five years. Men wear cable knit sweaters. Not generally in pastel colors I'll grant (though around Easter anything goes) but it does happen. It may not be a younger person fashion but it's certainly not because of a gendering issue.

---

Okay I get it.. men can wear that sweater..

Quote:

---

Overall it just seems like you're up in arms about nothing. I don't see the problem with unlocking these things to both genders just as you have people of both genders irl who wear clothes intended for the opposite sex. There is very little comfier to me than putting on a large t-shirt that belongs to my boyfriend and sleeping in that. It is men's clothes.

If anything we should be asking for less gender locking not more.

---

See my responses to others above you. I'm not actually asking to genderlock items. I'm making a point saying that they might as well genderlock because they won't make masculine things. Yes I bet we all wear men's clothes but that wasn't the point. The point was that male characters don't get masculine items. That's the core message.

In fact, I was never a supporter of locks in anything. Ever.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ladygrilka

snip

---

As a deviant, I'm more partial to the male Au Ra hempen top.

Race exclusive designs for what is probably the least used glamour item is absolutely baffling though.

I'm all for more male and female fashion in this game, but I don't want any genderlock. Going forward, I'd like everything to be made unisex.

But its ok they do Fedoras and suspenders outfits and make them unisex? Google Image only shows men in suspenders, so they are for men right? It's ok that they always take a male FF character, bring over over his outfit, and make it unisex, and then they rarely do a female charater's outfit. Its OK they usually use the male variant of the Tactics Orge armor? Its ok they gave out the male Isghard outfit as unisex but never gave the women's? And the Taoist set looks more traditionally for men because of the hat. All I get from this is that apparently it's OK to make "men's outfits" as unisex, but the other way is bad. People won't notice when its men's outfits made unisex, so I wouldn't even be surprised if overall there's far more "men's outfits" in the game. No one really cares enough to count how many times they actually did it that way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

Are you saying that the actual women's Ao Dai that the devs put in is okay but asking for the men's version of the Ao Dai to be added is wrong because it's not Earth? Seriously? We're doing this again?

---

No, I'm saying acting like you are entitled to the men's version of an outfit irl because there is a female version in-game is nonsense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

That wasn't even my thread.. don't put that on me lol. But based on that are you saying feminine things on men in RL aren't feminine on men in-game to you? Or just the sweater?

---

I'm saying you act too much like Eorzea is the real world. The rules are clearly different there. Why get bogged down in the conventional masculinity or femininity of an outfit when we walk around in crazy spiky armor with swords and spears and magical floating globes? Realism has no place here. Quite literally the same argument countless people threw at you in that mess of a thread.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

See my responses to others above you. I'm not actually asking to genderlock items. I'm making a point saying that they might as well genderlock because they won't make masculine things. Yes I bet we all wear men's clothes but that wasn't the point. The point was that male characters don't get masculine items. That's the core message.

In fact, I was never a supporter of locks in anything. Ever.

---

And I'm saying I think you're wrong and the examples you provided are invalid. You took some glam items you felt were feminine and portrayed them in feminine ways. As Iscah proved with their Elezen these things are definitely more gender neutral than you gave them credit for.

Why do you think SE should consider sinking time and money into creating glam for a comparatively tiny subset of the community? Walk into any major city, you will count so many more female characters to male characters it's ridiculous.

If they were literally exclusively putting out female glamor then we would have a problem. If your OP was actually true we would have a problem. The issue is not that there are no masculine clothing variants it's that you don't like the ones that are available.

I'm curious what you would even want? You want coats that fit differently? Those boots from your OP are practically in the game already. I don't remember their name but they show up around the high house boots on the market board. I remember looking at them and thinking 'ew, this are manly' and not buying them.

You're asking for glam we don't need to fix a problem we don't have. Any gender imbalance in the number of available outfits is easily explained by the imbalance of characters of each gender. Hell, the way that works out I would say male characters are overrepresented in the amount of glam they get.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Senn

I'm all for more male and female fashion in this game, but I don't want any genderlock. Going forward, I'd like everything to be made unisex.

---

...and when everything is made unisex, the vast majority of items end up being very feminine/androgynous in design. At least when it comes to casual glamours, certain job sets and various hairstyles.

The developers have shown repeatedly that when they go the 'unisex' route they just use it as an excuse to embrace a feminine/androgynous aesthetic. There's a few exceptions, but until they can be trusted not to do that then more gear should be gender locked.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

until they can be trusted not to do that then more gear should be gender locked.

---

No.
/10char

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

The developers have shown repeatedly that when they go the 'unisex' route they just use it as an excuse to embrace a feminine/androgynous aesthetic. There's a few exceptions, but until they can be trusted not to do that then more gear should be gender locked.

---

What do you win by not having access to the gear at all?

Do you think they'll make a male and a female set everytime instead of a unisex one? Because they wont. They'll do what they did with the spring set or the bunny outfits: Stuff for female characters that males dont have access to at all.
Wouldnt you rather have access to femine/androgynous things than nothing at all?
And what do you win by not having access to "female" glamour anymore?
I was so mad when males couldnt wear the spring skirt on my male character... people requested that bunny outfit so many times (and yes, I know, some wanted a re-work of it as manly fashion and didnt get it, but I also know that some just wanted the girl-one)

I'm all for more male glamour options. But we need less genderlocks overall, not more.

And the funny thing is about this whole "real life" and "modern" fashion in regards to this: We have so, so much more female fashion options in real life, specially more options that actually differe significantly from each other. Whenever I try to get something for my brother, it feels like everything looks the same - so yeah, my guess would be that if we'd get modern guy-fashion in the game, we'd be done after two sets (exaggerating).

And still: There ARE male options in the game - and the androgynous stuff shouldnt be a surprise to anyone in a game that belongs to a series in which Cecil Harvey and Firion are maincharacters...
I dont know... I get wanting more male options, I do... but real world male fashion always seems more boring to me than girl fashion in the first place with less variation in it.
And you can still dress up "manly" - just not when you dye that unisex-sweater in pastellpink.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vidu

Do you think they'll make a male and a female set everytime instead of a unisex one? Because they wont. .

---

Honestly, why shouldn't they? It's not a crazy expectation that a game developer should put in some effort when designing items for their game. Older games manage this just fine - creating both male and female counterparts of an outfit that actually look decent for both genders (and races!). XIV's unisex approach to hairstyles and outfits quite often seem to be clearly designed for one gender in particular, and the other just has to make due with something that looks...not so great.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skivvy

Honestly, why shouldn't they? It's not a crazy expectation that a game developer should put in some effort when designing items for their game. Older games manage this just fine - creating both male and female counterparts of an outfit that actually look decent for both genders (and races!). XIV's unisex approach to hairstyles and outfits quite often seem to be clearly designed for one gender in particular, and the other just has to make due with something that looks...not so great.

---

There are a ton of cute male glams out there.

Also where do you get off implying that SE doesn't put in some effort when designing things as they are?

People love to act like they know what's going on behind the scenes when they clearly have no idea.

I'm all for holding SE accountable for their mistakes but do everyone a favor and put some thought in before blindly criticizing them for things that aren't realistic. Investing time and money in male only glam when far less people are going to use or purchase it is just not good business.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

There are a ton of cute male glams out there.

Also where do you get off implying that SE doesn't put in some effort when designing things as they are?

People love to act like they know what's going on behind the scenes when they clearly have no idea.

I'm all for holding SE accountable for their mistakes but do everyone a favor and put some thought in before blindly criticizing them for things that aren't realistic. Investing time and money in male only glam when far less people are going to use or purchase it is just not good business.

---

Oftentimes females will get a completely new set of gear and males will get recycled or modified pieces of existing gear. So that to me screams "girls get more effort". Whether it's because SE wants to play waifu with their own chars, or there is data saying doing so is more worth their while for some reason, we can't say. But I see the results regardless.

Just look at how long we had to complain at them for releasing female-only glamours for them to acknowledge the issue. Now they've solved it by releasing unisex gear... and like I said before I can live with that compared to getting nothing, but it's really obvious what the priority and intent is when outfits are revealed. I just want some cooler, manlier gear more often rather than obvious compromises.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hestzhyen

I just want some cooler, manlier gear more often rather than obvious compromises.

---

Virtually all armor that's not Healer and Caster specific reads masculine when it's worn by a male character, the only thing that feminizes it on female characters are the alterations to fit like coming in at the waist or out at the chest.

If you mean more masculine casual clothing styles I think Vidu hit the nail on the head - men's fashion doesn't have the same level of variation or even generally detail that women's does. My boyfriend has a suit, button ups, tee shirts, jeans, chinos, gym shorts and hiking shorts. I have more styles of underwear than he does of clothing in general and he dresses pretty well.

There is also the issue that we generally accept women wearing men's clothes a lot easier than the other way around. If my boyfriend and I were magically the same size and we dressed out of each other's closets and went to the mall no one would look at me twice and everyone would be starting at the chest hair poking out of his crop top. I'm not saying it's a good thing but I think there is more to making exclusively male clothing than you think. Women will be able to wear it as long as all the necessary bits are covered.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

There are a ton of cute male glams out there.

Also where do you get off implying that SE doesn't put in some effort when designing things as they are?

People love to act like they know what's going on behind the scenes when they clearly have no idea.

I'm all for holding SE accountable for their mistakes but do everyone a favor and put some thought in before blindly criticizing them for things that aren't realistic. Investing time and money in male only glam when far less people are going to use or purchase it is just not good business.

---

My bad for holding SE to the same expectations that I have for other game devs. You have truly put me in my place.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

There is also the issue that we generally accept women wearing men's clothes a lot easier than the other way around. If my boyfriend and I were magically the same size and we dressed out of each other's closets and went to the mall no one would look at me twice and everyone would be starting at the chest hair poking out of his crop top. I'm not saying it's a good thing but I think there is more to making exclusively male clothing than you think. Women will be able to wear it as long as all the necessary bits are covered.

---

But it's Eorzea!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Why do you think SE should consider sinking time and money into creating glam for a comparatively tiny subset of the community? Walk into any major city, you will count so many more female characters to male characters it's ridiculous.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Investing time and money in male only glam when far less people are going to use or purchase it is just not good business.

---

Firstly, thankyou for the compliments on my Elezen. :D

I disagree that making clothing specifically for males is bad business - as long as a reasonable amount of players are going to want to use it.

Also some people have said they're only playing as female characters because of the gender-glamour imbalance in the first place, so that may be influencing the numbers (and potentially creating a feedback loop if SE sees 'number of characters' as equal to 'demand for future glamour').

But it's a good point that women can/will wear men's clothes much more easily than the other way around. I think that's their reason for the 'paired sets' of outfits generally being female-exclusive and male-unisex - they decide that enough people will want to put the male version on their female character that it's worthwhile to put the time/effort into making a female model. But there'll be much less demand for male characters to wear the female version.

The IRL imbalance of women being more able to wear men's clothing also does create the difficulty of what design would be male-exclusive-and-unwanted-for-females. I'm not the person to propose an answer for that.

I think (at a 'just a hunch' level) there also may be an imbalance in the game of more male fantasy-setting-appropriate gear and female modern-fashion gear?

Ah yes let's make items gendered again therefore those who whine about gear being gender locked can have their turn to complain.


Though I will admit I wish males weren't getting shorts but some stylish pants but those knitted shirts look nice on elezen men. /shrug

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iscah

Firstly, thankyou for the compliments on my Elezen. :D

(Snipped for length)

I think (at a 'just a hunch' level) there also may be an imbalance in the game of more male fantasy-setting-appropriate gear and female modern-fashion gear?

---

100% agreed. Honestly I feel like by the end you had kind of already answered your own query about male-specific outfits being bad business. I would also say it would be a good idea if they would see use, the issue right now is that if they made something exclusive to male characters they're locking out the majority of their players. It will, by it's very nature, see considerably less use.

The feedback loop you bring up may very well exist, I certainly wouldn't argue against it. In fact I distinctly remember alluding to the same issue back during The Great Male Bunny Suit Debate. The question then becomes are we going to break the loop or trust that SE will? Because I don't see them taking the initiative. I know it won't happen but if a majority of the playerbase fantasia'd to male characters I am certain we would see an uptick in masculine glamour. As it stands they're a business playing to their key demographic.

I think the disparity between the adventuring (good way to phrase it! I was trying to come up with a word to categorize this but couldn't) and fashion is also important. People want masculine fashion gear but I don't think we will be getting feminine battle gear because it doesn't really make much sense. It just so happens that this is the way the cookie crumbled but I can't help but think masculine and feminine aesthetics lend themselves to adventuring and fashion gear respectively.

Overall if my posts a struck you as me saying that I think men's fashion is a waste of time for the game I apologize that I didn't properly articulate myself. I think it could be cute, I just don't think from SE's perspective that the demand is there because... well... look around. Not a lot of male characters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

But it's Eorzea!

---

And Eorzea, like the real world, has two genders called male and female with distinct (If not slightly blurrier) aesthetics. If it had three genders or eighty genders or no genders this would be a moot point.

Either way my point is about the irl position of the dev team, not Eorzea. They live in a world that restricts men from crossing into women's fashion far more than the inverse. That's going to color their opinions whether we like it or not.

I'm not saying I agree with this or I feel personally that clothing (or glamour) should be gendered, I'm saying it's harder for your average person to conceive of an outfit that's too masculine for a woman to wear than it is for someone to come up with things that are too feminine for men to wear. If you want to argue that point go ahead but it's a losing battle.

Men's fashion is actually a pretty huge industry. A growing one, at that. It's not as if there aren't specific stores devoted solely to men's clothing either. Yet putting all that aside, FFXIV isn't afraid to draw inspiration from various different real world cultures. There's ample pieces of cultural and historical attire to tap into when it comes to stuff that looks cool and masculine on a male model. A male counterpart to Edda's dress, for instance, could have easily have been some sort of pseudo Victorian/Gothic attire. Think the sort of outfits worn by characters in games such as Bloodborne.

Simply unlocking a lot of the outfits used exclusively by NPC's would be a good start. Especially since Yoshi-P has expressed a desire to appeal to role-players. I'm not talking about major NPC's, either - but rather the likes of the Ishgardian and Hingan civilians wearing fancy looking attire that is not currently available to players. People have actually been asking for this for years, though...so I won't hold my breath.

Then there's things like Hien's outfit to consider. Most people requesting it on this forum were specifically after the hairstyle as well. Though that wasn't added - even though it could have been a neat looking unisex hairstyle.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anselmet

Ah yes let's make items gendered again therefore those who whine about gear being gender locked can have their turn to complain.


Though I will admit I wish males weren't getting shorts but some stylish pants but those knitted shirts look nice on elezen men. /shrug

---

I'd rather have gender locked gear than another expansion filled with feminine looking dresses, high heel boots and bedsheet robes for my spellcasters and healers. Seriously, I think the gear designers at SE have no reason idea what stylish masculine gear looks like, since they are so obsessed with feminine gear and cutesy crap for the ladies all the time. If 5.0 ends up delievering the same sh*tty gear designs and reskins, then that will be the last expansion SE will be getting my money.




/2 cents

http://i66.tinypic.com/1qk1vc.jpg

Please stop forcing your limited, biased concepts of gender onto everyone else. Make everything open to both genders, and actually look for the gear that is modern and masculine. it's there. There are literally pressed suit pants, khaki cargo pants, and classic blue jeans, suspender shirts, leather coats with white button ups underneath. you're grasping at straws. Besides, feminine clothing for males is NOT a bad thing....like, ??????? Just because your preferences aren't represented doesn't mean SE is doing anything "wrong". That's like boycotting an ice cream shop because although they have a myriad beloved flavors, you think a flavor they don't have should be a staple and because they don't, you're disgusted and think it's a travesty. That's childish. We're getting about as neutral a new set as i have seen with those toggle coats. They are completely neutral coats. Cable knit sweaters are also neutral, and even if they were not...it's okay to like it. it's okay to wear it and really all this complaining about wanting more specifically masculine options for males is just showing your own insecurity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bakaburgmeowmeow

http://i66.tinypic.com/1qk1vc.jpg

---

Your character actually looks really good in that outfit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bakaburgmeowmeow

snip

---

I'mma repeat myself and androgyny is fab, yo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Usho

I'd rather have gender locked gear than another expansion filled with feminine looking dresses, high heel boots and bedsheet robes for my spellcasters and healers. Seriously, I think the gear designers at SE have no reason idea what stylish masculine gear looks like, since they are so obsessed with feminine gear and cutesy crap for the ladies all the time. If 5.0 ends up delievering the same sh*tty gear designs and reskins, then that will be the last expansion SE will be getting my money.

---

I said in my last post but you might have missed it - there are lots of practical boots for mages if you just look on the marketboard. Prettymuch everything, in fact. Working down the list, the Marid Leather boots have low heels but still practical, and the first (only?) set of "high heels" are the Lv60 repurposed-Evenstar set for casters. Then low-heeled Serpentskin boots and ARR dress shoes.

For other gear available from Stormblood specifically:

The Lv68 caster gear is a ragged "desert traveller" robe. The healer gear is a mid-length coat (a dress-like coat, but still not a dress) that was also given to tanks.

Lv66: serge gambison and pants for both mages. Really nice looking and not at all feminine. I particularly like the healer colour scheme.

Lv61: the Ghost Barque set for casters uses the Wind Silk Coatee model.

Also the Lv70 Farlander dungeon set gives us short actons that were previously Lv69 melee gear.


The game's 'standard style' for mages is long robes - that's clear by now and I doubt it will change - but they vary from it often enough. Are you seeing these things or are you too focused on the ones that you find offensive? Discuss the imbalance - I know there is one - but stop spitting the same exaggerated descriptions and anger into every topic. It doesn't get your point across better, it just makes my head hurt to read your posts. People will just stop listening to you.

Also these sets are not trying to be "stylish gear" for either gender. They aren't supposed to be judged by modern fashion standards. Historical/fantasy-setting styles have an inherently different range of what is considered to be men's clothing. (I don't want my male character in fashionable clothing, I want him in tunics and elaborate coats. Floor-length robes, not so much, but that's for practicality and we don't get much of that anyway.)

That said - yes they should have designed some of those costumes differently for men. I'm not so insistent on "wizard robes" being a problem for male characters, but the "Ruby Cotton Chasuble" is clearly a women's dress, and a redesign would look much better. (Compare the Lv69 Valerian priest's robes for a good male variation of what is a feminine dress on female characters.) Likewise the Sky Pirate coats, which should have been amazing and instead are identical to the women's version. They made the Plague Bringer coat around the same time, so I don't know what went wrong there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

100% agreed. Honestly I feel like by the end you had kind of already answered your own query about male-specific outfits being bad business. I would also say it would be a good idea if they would see use, the issue right now is that if they made something exclusive to male characters they're locking out the majority of their players. It will, by it's very nature, see considerably less use.

---

By "specifically for males" I didn't mean gender-locking the male gear (though I now realise it reads like that), but I do think they could do with more outfits where they set out to design something that primarily suits male characters, and appeal to a different fashion taste than their usual gear, but still make it available to everyone.

Of course, it seems that part of the issue is what they perceive to be male fashion in the first place - whether it's because of cutural differences or personal design taste. They're starting from a different reference point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

There's ample pieces of cultural and historical attire to tap into when it comes to stuff that looks cool and masculine on a male model.

---

Mmm, the good fashion isn't really all that different, though. If you look at portrayals of P.G. Wodehouse's Bertie Wooster, he looks incredibly stylish and very modern almost, despite the time being the 1930s. Men's fashion is really restricted in terms of what it can do. Here's a fun little blog telling you what happens when you try for real experimentation and androgyny in the past, Plaid Stallions's Fashion Mockery section.

I think what you should ask for is more masculine male COSTUMES, instead. If anything some of the issue in this game, male and female, is how realistic and modern the glamour is for a fantasy game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bakaburgmeowmeow

http://i66.tinypic.com/1qk1vc.jpg

Please stop forcing your limited, biased concepts of gender onto everyone else. Make everything open to both genders, and actually look for the gear that is modern and masculine. it's there. There are literally pressed suit pants, khaki cargo pants, and classic blue jeans, suspender shirts, leather coats with white button ups underneath. you're grasping at straws. Besides, feminine clothing for males is NOT a bad thing....

---

Says a woman(?) playing a female character. And no, feminine clothing for males IS a bad thing in this game, especially when SE can't come up with any good masculine gear. Some things just work, some things really won't work. Have you not seen the sh*t SE has been giving us since HW? The morbidly ugly caster Stormblood sets should be enough to make people say "WTF?" alone. SE doesn't know how to make modern and masculine looking gear. Some guys may like the dresses, some may even play female characters just for THEIR glamour, but there are males who play male characters (like myself), that don't want to be thrown dresses with high heels for their BLMs.



Or keep getting bedsheet robes from your grandma's house for body gear on healers. Not all males want that sh*t. SE isn't going for diversity anytime soon, they are so stuck up on their old ways of appealing to women (pandering to them ALOT) in this game like with gear and glamour....but leave scraps or basically nothing of interest for guys.





Defending them allows them to keep up the status quo. Keep that in mind if you don't want change. As for me, I want change and I'll continue to speak up for it. As should other males who feel the same.






/2 cents

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

...and when everything is made unisex, the vast majority of items end up being very feminine/androgynous in design. At least when it comes to casual glamours, certain job sets and various hairstyles.

The developers have shown repeatedly that when they go the 'unisex' route they just use it as an excuse to embrace a feminine/androgynous aesthetic. There's a few exceptions, but until they can be trusted not to do that then more gear should be gender locked.

---

I agree that there should be more masculine designs but they should be unisex too. Gender locking things will not solve the problem because they could still either then decide to create more female glamours or just more androgynous stuff but now restricted thus both sides will have less glamour. Lets have less restrictions but simply more different glamours in the game thus more for everyone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Usho

Says a woman(?) playing a female character. And no, feminine clothing for males IS a bad thing in this game, especially when SE can't come up with any good masculine gear. Some things just work, some things really won't work. Have you not seen the sh*t SE has been giving us since HW? The morbidly ugly caster Stormblood sets should be enough to make people say "WTF?" alone. SE doesn't know how to make modern and masculine looking gear. Some guys may like the dresses, some may even play female characters just for THEIR glamour, but there are males who play male characters (like myself), that don't want to be thrown dresses with high heels for their BLMs.

Or keep getting bedsheet robes from your grandma's house for body gear on healers. Not all males want that sh*t. SE isn't going for diversity anytime soon, they are so stuck up on their old ways of appealing to women (pandering to them ALOT) in this game like with gear and glamour....but leave scraps or basically nothing of interest for guys.

Defending them allows them to keep up the status quo. Keep that in mind if you don't want change. As for me, I want change and I'll continue to speak up for it. As should other males who feel the same.
/2 cents

---

Just wanted to poke in and say the glamours have absolutely nothing to do with catering to female players or some old tradition of pandering women or whatever. SE releases glamour for female characters, and the people who play them. Not female players.

And lastly, you don't have to be male or play a male character to want to see more masculine options on male characters. You don't have to be male to want to fight for such a thing. It kind of seems like you have some sort of hate against women.. let's get that out of here please. This is a topic about wanting to have more casual glamour for male characters. Not a hate topic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alleo

thus both sides will have less glamour.

---

Assuming they're being unfair and releasing glamour only for one gender, which admittedly they have done on occasion, like with the frilly dress. I honestly aren't sure we'd have gotten the frilly match if not for the immediate outcry. And locking the mats behind Pagos or the new canals makes sense for the delay, but is also unfair and so very arbitrary, especially when considering their track record.
BUT, if they give us matching glamour sets, what difference does it make if it's gender locked? Both genders get the same amount of glamours. The difference is, as we've seen before, guys will now have more variety of masculine glamours to pick from, because if it's unisex, they go with either androgynous or feminine, especially for casters and healers. Which isn't inherently bad, until it starts piling up and there's nothing to counter that for people who don't want that.
Thing is, it's actually hilarious, because all it takes is to look at how many people wanted the Gambler's coat and Best Man's set to see that people want masculine outfits for their female chars, too. People also asked for Aymeric and Hien's sets SE just needs to finally get the memo that there's demand for masculine designs on all sides.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Investing time and money in male only glam when far less people are going to use or purchase it is just not good business.

---

Were this a F2P game this logic would make 100% sense as the game would need to sell to the majority to keep the lights on. But since we're not playing TERA its a moot point. The next expansion isn't likely going to have a miqo exclusive class regardless how much more use a miqo class would get compared to an elezen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rokke

Were this a F2P game this logic would make 100% sense as the game would need to sell to the majority to keep the lights on. But since we're not playing TERA its a moot point. The next expansion isn't likely going to have a miqo exclusive class regardless how much more use a miqo class would get compared to an elezen.

---

It isn't about need, it's about want. SE is a huge company and they didn't get to be where they are by just 'keeping the lights on '.

The dichotomy between gender and glamour is not unlike the one between raiders and content creation. There is comparatively little truly difficult raid content out there because comparatively fewer people participate in that content. At this point there are only two fights per Savage tier that have any real teeth to them especially after gearing up and then there's Ultimate. Compare that to the huge swathe of casual friendly content from crafting to dungeoning to 24mans to maps, the list goes on. More people participate at that level so more is invested in creating things for them to do.

More people play female characters so more is invested in giving them things to wear.

Your Miqo-only class example is moot. We don't have racially locked classes for a myriad of reasons, not the least of which is the simple existence of fantasia. It also goes against the idea of being able to level basically everything on one character. SE clearly doesn't want to lock people out of options which is probably why so many glamour options are made unisex to appeal to the largest demographic possible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

You don't have to be male to want to fight for such a thing. It kind of seems like you have some sort of hate against women.. let's get that out of here please. This is a topic about wanting to have more casual glamour for male characters. Not a hate topic.

---

Well said.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iscah

By "specifically for males" I didn't mean gender-locking the male gear (though I now realise it reads like that), but I do think they could do with more outfits where they set out to design something that primarily suits male characters, and appeal to a different fashion taste than their usual gear, but still make it available to everyone.

Of course, it seems that part of the issue is what they perceive to be male fashion in the first place - whether it's because of cutural differences or personal design taste. They're starting from a different reference point.

---

I suppose we will agree to disagree here? I think there is enough glamour that fits this idea existing already, given the comparatively narrower breadth of male fashion to begin with as well as the majority masculine adventuring gear which can often be mixed in to great effect.

I agree with the idea that the perspective of the dev team could be impacting this as a whole and perhaps their is a cultural element as well. I am suddenly quite curious as to how the JP players feel about this issue as a whole.

happens too often hairstyles,event gear and glamor etc etc Generally one sided
and when males do get a nice exclusive always those people who ask for it to be gender neutral (prince,Butler set example)

considering they can make male and female sets look completely different without having a gender lock like WHM and AST af 3 sure they can do it for future gear instead of males waiting months for there equivalent of it or at least i wish they would, not much reason the autumn thavanarian tops are split up.
but i do like the coat they are adding though i didn't really see it as feminine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

More people play female characters so more is invested in giving them things to wear.

---

the issue here is if you keep supporting the majority and not caring about the minority they just leave and you lose consumers which is a loss of money
and that majority will just keep getting smaller and smaller as more and more people leave

gotta support all groups in someway or another so they don't feel left out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

More people play female characters so more is invested in giving them things to wear.

---

That's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Many people admit they play female characters because of the glamour situation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

That's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Many people admit they play female characters because of the glamour situation.

---

I addressed this already in response to Iscah I believe, the idea of a feedback loop that's causing both problems to exacerbate each other. I think it's a fine point. The question then becomes who is responsible for breaking it, though? Arguments can be made for both sides and I don't think there is a clear cut answer.

I do think based on SE's history whether you believe they're responsible for breaking the cycle or not it's naive to assume they're going to.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Duskane

the issue here is if you keep supporting the majority and not caring about the minority they just leave and you lose consumers which is a loss of money
and that majority will just keep getting smaller and smaller as more and more people leave

gotta support all groups in someway or another so they don't feel left out.

---

They do support male characters, just not enough for some people in this thread. I know several guys that play male characters, they're just as into glamour as the rest of us. SE is giving them what they want.

There is a difference between cutting out a minority entirely and just not catering to them the same way you do your key demographic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Usho

Says a woman(?) playing a female character. And no, feminine clothing for males IS a bad thing in this game, especially when SE can't come up with any good masculine gear. Some things just work, some things really won't work. Have you not seen the sh*t SE has been giving us since HW? The morbidly ugly caster Stormblood sets should be enough to make people say "WTF?" alone. SE doesn't know how to make modern and masculine looking gear. Some guys may like the dresses, some may even play female characters just for THEIR glamour, but there are males who play male characters (like myself), that don't want to be thrown dresses with high heels for their BLMs.

---

She just gave you a list of things that are not dresses that you are entirely free to glamour over the gear you hate so much.

And did you read the post I wrote to you pointing out the Stormblood mage gear that is also not dresses?

https://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acc...9a9bddefcf.jpg
This is the Lv66 healer gear. Casters get the same in black-and-purple. It is not a dress.

https://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acc...202e977310.jpg
This is the Lv68 caster gear. It is also not a dress.

https://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acc...1ce2aaeaf3.jpg
The black mage job gear is also not a dress, and has flat-soled boots. The red mage gear is historical male clothing. The summoner gear is... weird. (But you don't have to wear it.)

It is not "modern-looking gear" because it is not supposed to be. It doesn't resemble modern clothing for either gender. It is fantasy-themed clothing for a fantasy-themed setting, and you have other options. Whether there are enough options is a separate debate which the rest of us *are* having while you rage at an inaccurate description of what gear is currently available.

What clothing do you expect to be given to mages in a fantasy setting? Serious question.


And as chance would have it, just now I spotted someone wearing the bonewicca "high heels" (the ONLY recent footwear I'm aware of that isn't flat-soled boots or occasionally sandals) and had a good look at them. They are not women's shoes, they are armour specifically designed to resemble animal feet, and the heel is there to hold the foot off the ground in a digitigrade position. (Also it is from the user-submitted design competition - and people complained when SE gave it normal pants instead of the Shisui-style gaping-hole-over-inner-thighs design from the original entry.)

https://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acc...ef7bf109db.jpg

Personally I wouldn't equip it for either gender since they look terribly impractical to fight in. Which is, again, why the vast majority of leveling gear gives us flat-soled shoes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

It isn't about need, it's about want. SE is a huge company and they didn't get to be where they are by just 'keeping the lights on '. The dichotomy between gender and glamour is not unlike the one between raiders and content creation. There is comparatively little truly difficult raid content out there because comparatively fewer people participate in that content. At this point there are only two fights per Savage tier that have any real teeth to them especially after gearing up and then there's Ultimate. Compare that to the huge swathe of casual friendly content from crafting to dungeoning to 24mans to maps, the list goes on. More people participate at that level so more is invested in creating things for them to do.More people play female characters so more is invested in giving them things to wear.

---

Indeed! Which is why they don't need to rely on milking waifu money, especially when it involves items obtained without spending irl monies. In game free items like crafted sets have zero reason to be unisex + female. Holiday free event sets should have equal amount of effort put into them. Were we at keeping the lights on mode, I'd be begrudgingly understanding... but we're not. SE isn't a small indie company. They have the means to make nice pixel clothes for everyone who plays their game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Your Miqo-only class example is moot. We don't have racially locked classes for a myriad of reasons, not the least of which is the simple existence of fantasia. It also goes against the idea of being able to level basically everything on one character. SE clearly doesn't want to lock people out of options which is probably why so many glamour options are made unisex to appeal to the largest demographic possible.

---

I mean, if we're going to count fantasias as a defense of keeping every class unlocked, we should probably use it as a defense of keeping glamour numbers/effort even.

Personally, I have no issue with unisexed items. The glamour imbalance and the level of effort put into outfits, however, isn't fair and has no business in game where I pay $15 regardless of what gender I play as with the additional ability to flip flop between the two as often as I please. If they want to half ass (or not include) male sets I'll gladly accept the legacy account pricing as a fair trade.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

I suppose we will agree to disagree here? I think there is enough glamour that fits this idea existing already, given the comparatively narrower breadth of male fashion to begin with as well as the majority masculine adventuring gear which can often be mixed in to great effect.

I agree with the idea that the perspective of the dev team could be impacting this as a whole and perhaps their is a cultural element as well. I am suddenly quite curious as to how the JP players feel about this issue as a whole.

---

Agree to kinda-sorta disagree anyway. Personally I'm quite happy with what's available for my male characters, but there seem to be a lot of complaints from other people who are males looking for male glamour items for their male characters... so, being a female who's happy to dress her male characters up in the fantasy-themed adventuring gear, I'm not going to say "you've got enough glamour already" when I don't know if that's a fair thing to say from their perspective. I think I've tried to argue it in past, Maybe they have a point, maybe they don't, but I don't think I can say.

Maybe there are a few simple things that could be added to 'cover all the bases' and make them happy. (Or maybe there'll always be something more that's lacking, and some people are just never happy. As the overall mood of this forum seems to suggest.)

I have argued in the past that I don't think it's just the men's fashion that's lacking things - I feel like I'm a broken record over this, but I'm personally unhappy with the lack of women's skirts that come with pants or tights underneath them - even the ones intended for melee fighters - and how often you can see up them when in action. If I avoid those, that leaves me with the short Ramie skirt and the floor-length Eikon skirts. A mid-length skirt with tights under it would go a long way for glamour potential for me, and I don't want to be told "you've already got enough" by someone who doesn't see the problem. So I don't want to be 'that person' to someone else.

Just saying "there should be more male stuff" isn't really helpful, but if there are specific 'holes' they could suggest to fill in, maybe they have a point.

Females get all the level 1 flavour of the month/slutgear, but a lot of the actual gear look better on men, there aren't a lot fending sets that look decent on female chars and casting/healer is awful on either.