That implies decent samurai aren't basically unicorns.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hierro
DPS Enmity controls
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07-31-2018, 03:21 PMTaiyoShikasu
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08-03-2018, 08:06 PMdundhey
Tank: DPS
Healer: DPS
DPS: Hate control
Did i get this right? -
08-03-2018, 09:01 PMTho-Much
Tank: hate control - use his defensive Cooldowns properly - DPS
Healer: make sure everyone survive the fight - hate control - DPS
DPS: DPS - hate control
It is not that hard to understand... thats what i call teamplay -
08-04-2018, 05:59 AMHierrowow, my eyes have been openQuote:
Originally Posted by dundhey
guys, healers should heal, only!
tanks, use your 123 aggro combo ONLY and in tank stance as your ONLY stance.
This guy is such a visionary. -
08-04-2018, 07:15 PMfumofuHeck, maybe SE should abandon this outdated healer/tank/dd concept already cos this game is all about dps anyway. And that would solve problem with long waiting times to access instances, cos there's only one universal role.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hierro
Just put all aggro controls to role actions, along with some heals and defensive skills. And don't forget to give ex-tanks/healers more dps skills, while removing their defensive and healing skills (which now are in role actions anyway).
And there ya go! Perfect ffxiv, according to raiders and other optimisation maniacs. Cos these peopole are the only player group that matters here. -
08-04-2018, 08:34 PMRayneBoemir
At very least for BRD at least in dungeons enmity dumps are usually unavailable. You use refresh for opener and tactician for aoe tp so it’s not uncommon for them to rip hate if you aren’t doing tank stance/hate combos honestly wish they would give us a separate hate dump, diversion or put the hate dump from refresh/tactician on repelling shot.
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08-05-2018, 12:13 AMAzbroolahTaking the obvious bait, but tanks actively lose DPS by swapping back into tank stance and aggro comboing, while using Diversion or Lucid as a DPS or healer costs nothing. It's not that hard to understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by dundhey
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08-05-2018, 03:06 AMKatsuraJun
So from now on, I'm not using reprisal or veil anymore. Shake it Off will exclusively be reserved for keeping myself alive, because that's my job along with keeping aggro. Keeping the team alive is the healers job, they can just do their job properly instead of relying on me to press one button to help them with that.
Next time the healer asks for a cover or blackest night on the prey target in o7s I'll tell them that's not my job and that they're bad. -
08-05-2018, 11:54 AMfumofuSo, basically you're agreeing with dundhey's statement? Thing is, there can't really be a single answer, because different types of content requires different play style. And while I understand and accept that savage and ex-trials are where everyone should push their dps, I'll never accept same expectations for regular dungeons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azbroolah
You guys seriously have trouble understanding that there's different play standards in savage and regular content, don't you?Quote:
Originally Posted by KatsuraJun
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08-05-2018, 12:06 PMBourne_EndeavorUnless I'm reading it wrong, I believe she's mocking people who keep insisting it's only the tank's responsibility to manage aggro. Abilities like Shake, Veil and Reprisal only help make things easier on healers, which is the precise same thing Diversion does for tanks. A tank refusing to use any of the aforementioned abilities would be immediately labelled a bad tank yet some people still defend not using Diversion.Quote:
Originally Posted by fumofu
No, there really isn't. There is the lazy, "tanks adjust because I'm too lazy" and the efficient way. Is it really that much to ask DPS utilize their oGCDs to support the party? A Ninja who refuses to use Shadewalker and Smokescreen is a bad Ninja. Why is Diversion exempted from this? The same logic applies to DPS who refuse to AoE large pulls—some arguing because the rotation bores them. That isn't an example of a different playstyle, it's simply you wasting other people's time.Quote:
Originally Posted by fumofu
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08-05-2018, 01:32 PMAzbroolahIt's not like we're saying DPS players should go do hours of rotation practice and dummy parses to climb up to 7k DPS and play perfectly. We're saying "press Diversion when you're going to burst" or "press Lucid when you're climbing the list." It's literally that easy -- press a single button that costs you nothing so that your tank doesn't have to pay the price and cover up for your laziness.Quote:
Originally Posted by fumofu
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08-05-2018, 03:14 PMTaiyoShikasuRespecting the content is a team job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hierro
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08-05-2018, 09:21 PMSunako
Using diversion also cost you one role action slot. You have to choose do you wanna use lucid for mana, swiftcast for mobility or instaraise, addle for aoe mitigation or dps, apoc for tank busters, manashift for healers or bard foe, surecast preventing kncokbacks etc. You dont really wanna use diversion and sacrifice one of these skills if it is not 100% demanded.
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08-05-2018, 11:31 PMAzbroolahA player who cares enough about teamwork to consistently use Apocatastasis or Addle will know when they need to use Diversion. I highly doubt any of the people in this thread arguing against using Diversion have ever touched any of those role actions. Also, Lucid is an enmity dump in addition to Mana regen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunako
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08-05-2018, 11:37 PMLilythDiversion IS 100% demanded.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunako
For casters you only really need Swiftcast, Lucid and Diversion. The other two are freebies depending on the encounter. Are there knockbacks? Surecast + Manashift. Healers need help with mitigating magical roomwide AoEs and are there knockbacks (God Kefka)? Addle + Surecast. Are there heavy magical tankbusters + heavy roomwide AoEs (UwU)? Addle + Apoc.
The only real exception here is the SMN who needs Addle for an extra Wyrmwave, but even then you would be better removing surecast than Diversion which wouldn't really impact such a mobile class.
Also, this argument is soon to become irrelevant given how all 10 Role Actions are to become available for you in the future. -
08-06-2018, 03:33 AMSunakoIt also depends on class. SMN pet is doing big part of your dps and pet have separated enmity generation compared to your main character. So you theoretically do like 25% less enmity all of the time. Even for world first UwU kill summoner did not use diversion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilyth
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08-06-2018, 05:05 AMLilythWhile it's true that the SMN's is the only real exception here since their pet takes part of the aggro generation from the class, their opener is still quite bursty, easily spiking more than 10K DPS. Dealing with spiky openers is Diversion's main scope.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunako
The world first UwU kill SMN not having diversion is a completely different and very specific scenario that shouldn't really be used as an excuse to not use it on, let's say, Phantom Train normal. -
08-06-2018, 07:27 AMHyoMinParkDon’t worry, you won’t have to worry about that at all come 4.4! : ok_hand :Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunako
There will be literally no excuse.
Seriously. I would sacrifice half of my physical ranged role actions just to have access to Diversion on BRD. >.> -
08-06-2018, 07:46 AMBourne_EndeavorPlayers utilizing those skills typically know how to manage Lucid/Diversion enough where they don't need both. In dungeons, you will never need apoc or addle since those bosses barely tickle half the time. In full party settings, there is no scenario where forcing a tank into tank stance is a rDPS gain. In fact, it's an overall loss even if it means you lose a GCD. That's how bad tank stance is, and why tanks avoid it like the plague. Even with that all said, there isn't a fight where you wouldn't slot Diversion and/or Lucid. And you should time your Lucid uses around your aggro not your MP. In fact, it's far better to use Lucid when you're at 80% MP because it won't tick fast enough to cap, provided you're actively DPSing. The only two jobs who have any argument about not managing aggro are Bard and Machinist, because they have to be mindful of blowing a party resource. Samurai and Black Mage? No, they have options. And if you're to lazy to use them, well, the tank's patience determines if you live or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunako
He did, however, use Lucid. Bear in mind, Ultimate is a poor example, especially WF prog. Everyone plays safe then because the objective is the first kill. You also have to consider each Primal and Ultima all have aggro resets. Therefore, the Warrior will always have an Unchained + Equilibrium opener ready. As the Primals are roughly three minute fights with multiple jump phases and adds in the case of Garuda and Ifrit, there isn't nearly the same aggro creep as you'd see in say, Demon Chadarnook. Not to mention, you have a Ninja rotating Shadewalker and Smokescreen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunako
Tanks in Ultimate aren't using tank stance for aggro reasons, they're using it live because stuff actually hurts. And you can't cheese mechanics like you can in Savage. -
08-06-2018, 08:19 AMKabooaThat's not fair. Half of them are garbage.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
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08-06-2018, 08:57 AMBourne_EndeavorShh, don't say that out loud. The devs still think they're useful!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
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08-13-2018, 08:46 PMaqskerorokero
You do have grit...
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08-13-2018, 09:31 PMReinhardt_AzureheimWhich locks out 20% of damage dealt, blocks superior MP gain from Bloodweapon (which in return can be more superior mitigation via TBN) and is slow to activate if you are forced to use it in the middle of the fight due to costing a GCD action. And this all because a Dps has the nerve to not use their oGCD enmity tools which cost them almost nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by aqskerorokero
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09-03-2018, 03:02 PMvVAstrAVv
Are we talking dungeon bosses here?
Youre a freaking tank
Emnity first dps second
And vice versa for the dps
Noones gonna waste tactition or lucid cus poor baby cant provoke
If you have aggro issues and care about dps so much drop drk and play war
Or play a dps heeey thats a good idea
Either way. No real right to complain.
Btw
Grit would actually give you better mp management because it doubles siphons mp
Each siphon with be a dark arts with it on rather than drying out with BW on cooldown -
09-03-2018, 04:52 PMMegguidoAaaaand that's wrong. Syphon Strike sure gives twice as much MP during Grit, but it locks you out of Blood Weapon (and Delirium Blood Weapon). BW shortens the GCD, which means more Syphon Strikes, more mana per hit.Quote:
Originally Posted by vVAstrAVv
The bonus mana on Syphon is there just to compensate the fact DRK is locked out of BW during Grit, else we would just starve on mana.
Two things are important to consider here:Quote:
Originally Posted by vVAstrAVv
- First, it's not hard to match or even exceed an average Duty Finder DPS in expert roulette when playing a tank, so aggro isn't remotely an issue during a boss pull.
- Second, DRK's MT opener generates a stupid amount of threat, close to the equivalent of a melee LB3. And WAR's damage output is nowhere near any DPS damage output at equivalent skill level. Stop calling WAR the DPS tank when it's barely 5% higher than PLD and DRK.
A tank doesn't care about the DPS pressing Diversion or not against a dungeon boss. What is really bothering is when the DPS is not pressing Diversion in a raiding environment, because it costs damage and ressources to the tank just to compensate the fact the DPS is too lazy to press one more button every 120 seconds. -
09-03-2018, 07:37 PMDzianThat's incorrect. If a sam uses merciful eyes instead of seigan. That's a loss of 200 potency.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilyth
Apparently monk is in a similar position it's enmity dump is a dps loss. As it eats chakras or something -
09-03-2018, 08:36 PMMegguidoThat's also incorrect. Seigan is 200 potency but requires both open eyes and 15 kenki. Seigan is a slight DPS gain over Shinten (13.3 potency/kenki for Seigan instead of 12 for Shinten). It's less than 30 potency lost. Dunno for MNK though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzian
I think Lilyth's point was mostly about Diversion, which costs nothing but a role skill slot, and reduces a lot the aggro needed from the tanks. And if tanks don't have to use tank stance and threat combos, it's a raidDPS gain. -
09-04-2018, 01:34 AMKabooaSeigan is trash.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzian
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09-05-2018, 06:30 AMAanaHit diversion. It costs dps ZERO dps and increases a tanks DPS. If a DPS's job is 'DPS 1st' then hit diversion. Your group gains DPS. If you cant hit 1 button every 2 min you cant play a DPS effectively. You suck as a DPS if you cant hit diversion and hurt your team for no gain. There is no rational reason to refuse to control your enmity when you have a 1 button OGCD cure-all built into the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by vVAstrAVv
You have no excuse to have enmity problems as long as diversion exists. Use it. -
09-08-2018, 06:09 PMGemina
I am under the mindset that another's player's negligence does not pardon your own. If DPS and healers are not using their enmity dumps, does this make it ok for a tank to remain in DPS stance and not use their enmity tools because you know?... reasons? I am not going to argue that non-tank roles not utilizing their enmity dumps makes for a less optimal party composition. This is indisputable. However, what is also indisputable is while non-tank roles have at most two skills to shave enmity, tanks have several means to build it quickly, and even instantly take it with provoke and ultimatum.
What I am getting at here, are the gripes I hear from tanks and healers when forced to do their role. We can finger point all day at DPS and healers not using their enmity reducers, but if hate is all over the place, trust me, the first person I am going to look at is the tank. Each and every time unless someone is deliberately doing something stupid like spamming medica, which even in PUGs is a rare occurrence from my experience.
In short, just like when I am healing; I am not going to rely on other players to make my job as tanking easier. ESPECIALLY IN PUGs! The issue of the OP is a direct result of him/her trying to push out as much DPS as possible. This is not a bad thing... until you lose agro. When this happens, no one is going to get looked at or questioned more than the tank.
Optimization should always be strived for regardless of content. I truly believe this. However, sometimes optimization only goes as far as adaptation, meaning your own ability to DPS as tank or healer while still performing your role is held back due to the ineptness of your party. It sucks because you know you are capable of much more, but it is not an excuse to forego your primary role whether it be tanking or healing. If you need to hard cast cures, DO IT! If you need to go back into tank stance, DO IT! It really is as simple as that because I am never going to blame a DPS player for wanting to cause more damage. But I will blame a healer or tank with the same desire. -
09-08-2018, 06:51 PMaodhan_ofinnegain
So first off a tank instantly getting aggro back after losing it, by using provoke and ultimatum is bull, as it only gives +1 aggro over the next aggro lead so in an aggro creep scenario is absolutely pointless.
With the exception of WAR the other two tanks require one GCD to enter tank stance which sets aggro recovery back by a GCD, and if mid combo, there is further delay for aggro generation unless the tank uses out of combo aggro skill or have some aggro generation oGCDs skills ready to use. Even at that aggro generated at this point is pretty negligible to the point of needing to spam aggro combo a few times in some cases before it'll give an effective aggro lead.
In my experience most aggro creeps happen for 1 or 2 thing, the main tank dies lack of heals or CDs or just random stuff, so as OT need to pick up hate if I'm not second already, and second reason is mid combat DPS ain't using their tools for aggro.
Also disagree heavily with you opinion of it's squarely on the tank for aggro management, like DPSing and many other party synergies, aggro management is party effort no excuses around it. Just press your damn 120second CD every time it's off cooldown it won't kill you. -
09-08-2018, 07:21 PMLyth
Enmity management isn't designed as a tanking challenge. There is no question of "easier" or "harder". It's a question of whether players are pressing buttons when they should be. More often than not, it comes down to knowledge the fight script including when things like adds spawn.
You could compensate for a dps who refuses to use enmity cooldowns properly. Are you going to want to continue to group with them? Probably not. To be honest, I'm yet to see a competent dps who doesn't use enmity reduction tools, so if they're struggling to press the button, they're probably struggling elsewhere as well.
You could try to compensate for a tank who refuses to use defensive cooldowns properly and complains about the lack of healing when they die. Are you going to want to continue to group with them? Probably not.
There are some things that are classically treated as tank, healer, or dps responsibilities, but at the end of the day, this is a team game, and everyone has to do their part to clear the encounter. -
09-18-2018, 02:00 PMWake90This to some extent.Quote:
Originally Posted by vVAstrAVv
First priority as a tank is to hold a standard of aggro then look to fit in DPS to the rotation. A tank who can't hold aggro doesn't know what they're doing or is in over there head and should be given some hand-holding by their teammates.
Who promised tanks they would be able to focus on damage instead of threat? Maybe tanking isn't the OP's thing, and they should switch.
Other members shouldn't have high threat for their damage output, and they should take steps to mitigate their threat, but it's the tanks job to hold a high standard. Call people out for not playing their character right and trying to run up their threat levels, but generally a tank should hold a high standard of threat to make it difficult for DPS to overstep their bounds. -
09-23-2018, 05:14 AMDeceptusSo we can't call the highest dps tank the "DPS Tank"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Megguido
Thinking.jpg
Major contradiction. If we're talking dungeon bosses, Lucid and Tactician shouldn't be needed for anything BUT aggro dumps. If you're having mana issues or TP issues on a boss, you're doing something VERY wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by vVAstrAVv
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09-25-2018, 07:01 PMSunspawnI'd rather Shirk you to help you dump ALL of your enmity. I am playing optimally by being in dps stance after my opener and expect you to do the same by using your enmity drop tools as intended.Quote:
Originally Posted by vVAstrAVv