According to FFLogs, AST pDPS >= WHM pDPS in 4.3

Take away thin air and give whm some kind of raid buff.....there would be howling for days

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kittyn

Healer gcd clipping has a far greater impact on dps output than 10 seconds of damage-reduced lightspeed....before 4.3 I would almost exclusively use lightspeed to rez only.

Now it can be used to move or do gravity-bursts IF you have the mp to spare..still doesn't come cheap. MP is still a huge issue for AST...if anything you'd use lightspeed to conserve throughout a lot of fights.

---

And moving is extremely important, since all DPS I have during moving is that of my DoTs. And depending on the fight, I have to reposition quite often. Yes, I would call that an advantage.
Also, you act as if AST was the only healer who ever had clipping issues...

LS + malefic is one choice for short, infrequent mechanics....it can't be used like that on-demand.

Scholar and summoner are the only casters that can move freely without ever stopping their GCD.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kittyn

LS + malefic is one choice for short, infrequent mechanics....it can't be used like that on-demand.

Scholar and summoner are the only casters that can move freely without ever stopping their GCD.

---

Know how many choices WHM has? Swiftcast+Stone IV. End of list. Something you can also include on ASTs list, btw, so more choice to them in those situations.

Man, why am I even talking to you. It's not going through to you anyway, you don't even try to understand the problem it seems. Wasted time.

If you can't get me to believe there's a problem with WHM, how are you going to get through to the developers? I play all 3 healer classes and I think they're in a very good place right now with balance.

As someone who picked the game back up on SB launch after dropping it 2 weeks after 1.0 came out, I don't feel like WHM is entitled to the "highest DPS healer" position.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kittyn

[...]

---

I'm not really sure I understand your stance. Currently, since 4.3 hit, in savage, AST pdps and WHM pdps are almost exactly the same around 75% and anything above 80% AST has anywhere between a 50 and 200 pdps lead on WHM. To which you need to add a minimum of 300rdps from ast cards, most likely an average of 500-600 rdps at 75%+, and a max for those top groups of 1k ish. This isn't just 50 dps we're talking about, it's a current huge lead in rdps for savage content. (this is compiled from about 55k parses over the last two weeks so this is not a tiny sample size either) : https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/21...unt&dataset=99 change the dataset at your leasure.

WHM is currently trailing heavily. It's comforting to see more parses for WHM that AST though. At least there's that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kittyn

If you can't get me to believe there's a problem with WHM, how are you going to get through to the developers? I play all 3 healer classes and I think they're in a very good place right now with balance.

As someone who picked the game back up on SB launch after dropping it 2 weeks after 1.0 came out, I don't feel like WHM is entitled to the "highest DPS healer" position.

---

Then what is its place in your opinion? If we cannot buff, nor can we put out the highest DPS numbers to compensate - tell what's the reason anyone should ever bring a WHM over SCH or AST?
All three healers can push out enough healing to clear all content, so that is not really a viable niche. You need only so much healing, beyond a certain point it's all in vain.

So, what is WHMs place right now?

There is none.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaMett

I'm not really sure I understand your stance. Currently, since 4.3 hit, in savage, AST pdps and WHM pdps are almost exactly the same around 75% and anything above 80% AST has anywhere between a 50 and 200 pdps lead on WHM. To which you need to add a minimum of 300rdps from ast cards, most likely an average of 500-600 rdps at 75%+, and a max for those top groups of 1k ish. This isn't just 50 dps we're talking about, it's a current huge lead in rdps for savage content. (this is compiled from about 55k parses over the last two weeks so this is not a tiny sample size either) : https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/21...unt&dataset=99 change the dataset at your leasure.

WHM is currently trailing heavily. It's comforting to see more parses for WHM that AST though. At least there's that.

---

Actually, from a purely logical point of view, it would be best if all WHMs would stop raiding on that job since that seems to be the only thing SE notices when it comes to healer viability. So no, there being more WHMs than ASTs is actually BAD since it implies there is no problem at all. (It would also likely lead to all the wrong things getting 'fixed' since SE showed time and again they got no effing clue about healer balance, but that's a different can of worms.)

Ok, let's be honest here. WHM is just training wheels for AST.

JK....sorta. Whm has up to 3 HoT ticks, a much larger effective MP pool. PoM with a shorter CD than LS. A single target shield... BENEDICTION.

I'm willing to bet 70% or more Ultimate weapon world-first groups will have a WHM in their party instead of an AST. Why is that?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kittyn

Ok, let's be honest here. WHM is just training wheels for AST.

---

This is exactly how SE sees it I reckon. You joke but kinda not and you're absolutely correct. And ultimate world firsts will most likely have WHM for this very reason. Especially considering they seem to have made an easier dps check this time around.
Doesn't mean they totally screwed the balance over with this patch though.

Edit: There's also a part of me that thinks the changes to AST were to make it more desirable in the new ultimate so maybe we're both wrong and world firsts will be full of AST.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kittyn

Ok, let's be honest here. WHM is just training wheels for AST.

JK....sorta. Whm has up to 3 HoT ticks, a much larger effective MP pool. PoM with a shorter CD than LS. A single target shield... BENEDICTION.

I'm willing to bet 70% or more Ultimate weapon world-first groups will have a WHM in their party instead of an AST. Why is that?

---

You didn't read a word I or EaMett wrote or else you would have brought up healing, and even took to insult the job. Get lost.

Who really just plays just 1 job anyways? That's the biggest appeal and hallmark of the FF series. You can change it up as the situation sees fit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kittyn

Who really just plays just 1 job anyways? That's the biggest appeal and hallmark of the FF series. You can change it up as the situation sees fit.

---

Might be because I don't want to be forced to play something I hate. That's not fun at all, you know. But apparently a really hard concept to understand for you.

And it's not even as if that's remotely true. I also play PLD (not to 70 yet due to a lot of work and rl), SCH, and SMN, plus some other jobs here and there when I want to. But at the end of the day, WHM is simply what I love to do, and I won't let myself be judged by someone like you for what I love.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

Actually, from a purely logical point of view, it would be best if all WHMs would stop raiding on that job since that seems to be the only thing SE notices when it comes to healer viability. So no, there being more WHMs than ASTs is actually BAD since it implies there is no problem at all. (It would also likely lead to all the wrong things getting 'fixed' since SE showed time and again they got no effing clue about healer balance, but that's a different can of worms.)

---

I suspect there's more to it. fflogs will not show the dataset in a manner that would be relevant to SE. It's hard to tell which percentiles carry the most bodies since percentiles are based on parses, not players. And then there's the blind spot comprised of all the players who just don't get parsed. It's possible that SE is interested in the highest population for balancing. And if that highest population resides within the 25 percentile then yeah it looks like WHM is way ahead and the AST buff suddenly makes sense. Nevermind that it screws the top bracket of players who actually care about fflogs and set meta trends.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaMett

I suspect there's more to it. fflogs will not show the dataset in a manner that would be relevant to SE. It's hard to tell which percentiles carry the most bodies since percentiles are based on parses, not players. And then there's the blind spot comprised of all the players who just don't get parsed. It's possible that SE is interested in the highest population for balancing. And if that highest population resides within the 25 percentile then yeah it looks like WHM is way ahead and the AST buff suddenly makes sense. Nevermind that it screws the top bracket of players who actually care about fflogs and set meta trends.

---

I mean, if we really would all work together, every single WHM, then it would send a pretty strong signal to SE. Sure, will never happen because people aren't smart enough and it's far too much of coordination unfortunately, but it is an interesting thought I think. I'm too mad right now to continue, though, and it's pretty late, so I will say good night and try to grab some sleep now.

AST is/was certainly the least played of all the healers (at least from the data we have)

Personally, I don't think either side of the equation here is that far from the truth of the matter.

WHM is still the absolute champ of bursty aoe damage and dungeons. It's also still the safer easier pair of hands for scrappy groups and rough PFs, even in the last few weeks, I've had a number of Tsu Pony farms where I just couldn't keep things on the rails as AST but managed just fine after switching to WHM.

I don't think it's a broken or unviable job by any stretch though, a moderate single target DPS bump would be plenty to tide things over until a hopeful Lily gauge rework for 5.0 if you ask me.

I don't understand this misconception where people think that only the hardcore statics should care about balance or only the hardcore can benefit from anything.

I pug all content in this game and I'm still hitting 80-90%. I also run content as soon as it comes out (with the exception of this tier as I wasn't subscribed for a few months) and the balance of jobs certainly does matter here. Why should a WHM have to go around doing anywhere from 50-100 less personal dps and over less 300 raid DPS than an AST? Even if it's a job that's easier for casual groups to play, you should have a chance to excel if you put the effort in. You can't do this with WHM. Our best is AST at 75% of their potential.

How can you honestly not see anything wrong with this? Just because people play it? You're never going to see 0 people playing a job because of balance, that doesn't mean it's issues should be ignored.

Nah….300 rdps + 100 pdps is not 25% of AST's output...re-think your maths.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kittyn

Nah….300 rdps + 100 pdps is not 25% of AST's output...re-think your maths.

---

It was an exaggeration, what I'm trying to say is a WHM can't beat an AST in personal or raid DPS. And since I have a feeling this will be countered by "they have higher heals", AST heals are just as efficient as a WHMs, possibly more so now that Aspected Helios is faster and Earthly Star/Essential Dignity can be used without clipping.

Two players playing at a high skill ceiling should be able to match eachother in raid contribution in some way, but all WHM does is bring Cure III.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

I don't think it's a broken or unviable job by any stretch though, a moderate single target DPS bump would be plenty to tide things over until a hopeful Lily gauge rework for 5.0 if you ask me.

---

I came here to say this, but it probably would have taken me 3 paragraphs. Thanks for the help!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaMett

This is exactly how SE sees it I reckon. You joke but kinda not and you're absolutely correct. And ultimate world firsts will most likely have WHM for this very reason. Especially considering they seem to have made an easier dps check this time around.
Doesn't mean they totally screwed the balance over with this patch though.

Edit: There's also a part of me that thinks the changes to AST were to make it more desirable in the new ultimate so maybe we're both wrong and world firsts will be full of AST.

---

The fact that if there is no dps check, you don't have interest to bring AST. if at the very least you could plan Bole, I would say yes, but no. WHM is doing the thing better than AST for the healing part, so bye AST (+nobody want to wait for AST cards at the beginning which cost a lot of dps/ressources for AST at pull).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

Helping with MP issues by buffing the reduction percentage has a LOT to do with DPS gains in my eyes, and the fact that LS now doesn't reduce damage anymore means that AST now at least can DPS while using that skill. Not solely, but at least LS doesn't gimp ASTs damage output anymore, so there is a gain if you want to see it or not. Yes, clipping reduction is also important, but don't underestimate this particular buff.

---

Tell me how it help with MP issues when you got more cast of Malefic III, omg ? It change nothing (except for spamming healing with Lightspeed).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

WHM does indeed have the most healing throughout readily available, but how often do you need more than what a SCH or AST offers? And they can reach such healing numbers without aggro issues.

---

You don't have many stories to tell about missed Earthly Star or Collective Inconscious (causing wipes) did you ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saraphin

AST mains have nothing to cry about. they're a 100% promised slot in most pug groups and in speed runs. They're quite frankly getting QoL and Buffs often (while everyone got a nerf bat at the beginning of SB via the new Cross Role system and class skill adjustments)

---

In 4.2, WHM received a very good buff for his Divine Benison, what convinced me to bring him instead of AST in Bahamut Ultimate, and I didn't regret it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

Might be because I don't want to be forced to play something I hate. That's not fun at all, you know. But apparently a really hard concept to understand for you.

---

Oh, and do you think playing with all the clippings through an entire fight was fun at all?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

With the other healer in question also bringing more raid DPS in general because buffs. Nothing wrong complaining about imbalance where there is imbalance. That's the only way to get rid of it - pointing it out (and praying that the Devs finally get their asses up and actually do something about the imbalance...).

---

I don't even know why you are complaining about that... First of all, you are a very bad WHM according to your logs. You overheal a lot and do very feel DPS. You keep saying pointless things in this thread embarrassing yourself, because you don't know how to play your job correctly. You keep asking for buffs for what? To keep overhealing more and not DPS at all?
You don't play your job right. You are bad at it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

Not sure how that's related, and what that got to do with the completely uncalled-for buff to LS that's responsible for a lot of the damage gain, but okay. Sure.
It also doesn't change how the class was viewed in the past, namely, great because of buffs. Last time I checked, this was about damage output, not how the class felt.

---

What do you mean? The Lightspeed "buff" was very called. And you know why? Because Lightspeed was very clunky, a very unusable spell in fights. You used to use that once every 150 seconds, for emergency heals (and very little times for movements) and click it off.
And these changes do little for AST's MP problems.
AST was clunky and needed these changes.

You said before that is not fun to play something you hate. Well, first of all, play your job right. Second, you don't deserve to be with people that force you to play something.
ASTs hated the clipping and it was pretty unfair about how fluid the other 2 healers play.
Again, these changes were needed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caduagm

ASTs hated the clipping and it was pretty unfair about how fluid the other 2 healers play.
Again, these changes were needed.

---

I agree with everything you're saying here, except this bit.
It's a bit of a stretch to say WHM feels fluid. All of their OGCD heals will clip into their GCD, that goes from DPSing with Assize to putting down Asylum.
On top of this WHMs strongest heals are tied to their GCD, so while an AST can simply lay down Earthly Star or a SCH can pop Indom, a WHM would need to stop DPSing to cast Cure III.
I also think Medica II needs to be brought down to 2.5 seconds as well, as it just feels like a completely unnecessary cast time that does nothing but further widen the DPS gap between healers.

These have always been issues, but I feel it's a lot more noticeable now that AST and SCH has had such nice QoL given to them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

I agree with everything you're saying here, except this bit.
It's a bit of a stretch to say WHM feels fluid. All of their OGCD heals will clip into their GCD, that goes from DPSing with Assize to putting down Asylum.

---

What do you mean by that? Are you really comparing the 6 oGCDs WHM has to the 15 ones AST does? Please, don't make me laugh.
You have Aero II with a very small DoT time to weave these oGCDs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

I also think Medica II needs to be brought down to 2.5 seconds as well, as it just feels like a completely unnecessary cast time that does nothing but further widen the DPS gap between healers.

---

No. Medica II is the strongest GCD AoE based regen in this game, with a larger range.
The changes to Aspected Helios was to be on par with Scholar.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

These have always been issues, but I feel it's a lot more noticeable now that AST and SCH has had such nice QoL given to them.

---

Don' t start victmizing WHM. They got very good QoL changes too. Plenary Indulgence and Divine Benison are good examples.

So, out of curiosity, I was wondering if S-E had adjusted the SSS values to suit the new DPS AST can output. Since the SSS calculator hadn't added the new EX Trial yet, I decided to just get an average of total damage dealt over five runs on both WHM and AST to get my end result.

I used the percentage difference in DPS needed to clear the SSS for each Sigmascape floor as my base line. You can see my results below.

https://i.imgur.com/MXeUwcb.png

I think "disappointment" is the word I'd use when I see that the percentage difference hasn't changed from pre-4.3 to post-4.3.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ghishlain

So, out of curiosity, I was wondering if S-E had adjusted the SSS values to suit the new DPS AST can output. Since the SSS calculator hadn't added the new EX Trial yet, I decided to just get an average of total damage dealt over five runs on both WHM and AST to get my end result.

I used the percentage difference in DPS needed to clear the SSS for each Sigmascape floor as my base line. You can see my results below.

https://i.imgur.com/MXeUwcb.png

I think "disappointment" is the word I'd use when I see that the percentage difference hasn't changed from pre-4.3 to post-4.3.

---

The maximum DPS of AST hasn't really changed, but rather the fact that AST can achieve a higher percentage of its maximum DPS when movement and healing demands are thrown into the mix. I think the QoL changes were needed, but between the SCH buff many patches ago and this recent indirect and presumably unintended AST DPS buff, it leaves WHM considerably behind. Anecdotes aside, it's hard to deny that this conclusion is not reflected by the logs we have right now.


Way back in early SB, people found that WHM slightly out-DPS'd SCH in raw potency (IIRC), but SCH always parsed higher in actual content because of the way it delivered its healing and damage. AST and WHM both had significantly more clunk -- or clipping -- to deal with, and it reflected in their actual parses. The best players could mitigate, but not eliminate, DPS losses from those factors. 4.3 basically removed the clunk from AST, and we're seeing the same phenomenon with AST now that we've been seeing with SCH for months.

Post 4.3, if we were to indirectly measure "clunkiness" as the difference between theoretical max DPS and actual DPS, WHM wins hands down in clunk, and its the source of this issue. AST may have more oGCDs, but they're often more situational and now weave seamlessly with most GCD abilities. To the people who are claiming that WHM is fine because it's baby's first healer and that SE balances in such a way, may I note that AST just received a patch where it got a DPS increase while simultaneously drastically reducing its skill ceiling? Jobs should be balanced, period. Difficulty is largely subjective, but performance is not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caduagm

No. Medica II is the strongest GCD AoE based regen in this game, with a larger range.
The changes to Aspected Helios was to be on par with Scholar.

Don' t start victmizing WHM. They got very good QoL changes too. Plenary Indulgence and Divine Benison are good examples.

---

Medica II is 40 potency more healing after all ticks have resolved and 240 more mp than Diurnal Aspected Helios. If we are paying 240 more mp on WHM for essentially the same spell with a slightly larger range by all means let's swap with AST, I would be fine with it and most WHMs would too I'd wager.


Comparing the sheer nunber of AST oGCDs with WHM oGCDs is stupid. WHM almost always wants to pop oGCDs as soon as they are up where as AST can go for long periods of time without using their royal road/spread cancellers and essnetially doesn't use Undraw once they have Minor Arcana. You're exaggerating the gap in oGCD usage here by just equating all these actions as if they all see the same useage.

Don't start victimizing AST. Cure III is literally the only thing tying WHM to relevance at this point. It migjt not be broken but right now both AST and SCH are overtuned.

I agree with you that the Malefic III change was needed from a QoL standpoint but it should have come with a potency nerf to compensate for the no longer clipped GCDs. Lightspeed and Aspected Helios changes are fine imo but they need to take away either pDPS or rDPS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wilbow

The maximum DPS of AST hasn't really changed, but rather the fact that AST can achieve a higher percentage of its maximum DPS when movement and healing demands are thrown into the mix. I think the QoL changes were needed, but between the SCH buff many patches ago and this recent indirect and presumably unintended AST DPS buff, it leaves WHM considerably behind. Anecdotes aside, it's hard to deny that this conclusion is not reflected by the logs we have right now.

Way back in early SB, people found that WHM slightly out-DPS'd SCH in raw potency (IIRC), but SCH always parsed higher in actual content because of the way it delivered its healing and damage. AST and WHM both had significantly more clunk -- or clipping -- to deal with, and it reflected in their actual parses. The best players could mitigate, but not eliminate, DPS losses from those factors. 4.3 basically removed the clunk from AST, and we're seeing the same phenomenon with AST now that we've been seeing with SCH for months.

Post 4.3, if we were to indirectly measure "clunkiness" as the difference between theoretical max DPS and actual DPS, WHM wins hands down in clunk, and its the source of this issue. AST may have more oGCDs, but they're often more situational and now weave seamlessly with most GCD abilities. To the people who are claiming that WHM is fine because it's baby's first healer and that SE balances in such a way, may I note that AST just received a patch where it got a DPS increase while simultaneously drastically reducing its skill ceiling? Jobs should be balanced, period. Difficulty is largely subjective, but performance is not.

---

I can understand where you're coming from regarding the maximum DPS for an AST, but that would also imply that it would take several things not into account including card buffs that cause AST to clip their GCDs. It would seem odd given the cards themselves give an effect to the AST so by not including that in their calculations, it would actually imply S-E has missed an important component of the AST kit as a whole.

Which then leads me to question other things but given the design direction of how healer's have been since 3.0, I'm not too surprised either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caduagm

What do you mean by that? Are you really comparing the 6 oGCDs WHM has to the 15 ones AST does? Please, don't make me laugh.

---

Yes, I am. Because the oGCDs WHM has is used extremely often while ASTs most used oGCD is now Earthly Star and essential dignity. Cards were completely fixed.
Why are you adding them up as if the number of oGCD the job has somehow means they're juggling that many at all times?

And I'm not going to deny that WHM has had some nice QoL. But none of this made is feel, which is the point I was trying to make. WHM is constantly clipping their OGCD heals and mobility is a huge issue for them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caduagm

You have Aero II with a very small DoT time to weave these oGCDs.

---

This reminds me.. Can we have a potency buff on this already? I would like to clip it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

You're exaggerating the gap in oGCD usage here by just equating all these actions as if they all see the same useage.

---

I didn't count those, my friend. Do you wanna count them with me?
Lightspeed, Essential Dignity, Draw, Royal Road, Spread, Redraw, Synastry, Time Dilation, Collective Unconscious, Celestial Opposition, Earthly Star, Star and Detonation/Explosion (sometimes), Minor Arcana + Lord or Lady since you have to press the button again, Sleeve Draw (I'm not counting the cards this ability gives, even though it would result in more oGCDs to weave). There are 15 oGCDs. You use at least 2 of them each 30 seconds.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Comparing the sheer nunber of AST oGCDs with WHM oGCDs is stupid. WHM almost always wants to pop oGCDs as soon as they are up where as AST can go for long periods of time without using their royal road/spread cancellers and essnetially doesn't use Undraw once they have Minor Arcana.

---

Yes? But for that you still use Draw, Redraw and then Minor Arcana x2 each 30 seconds. That's 4 oGCDs. Again, I didn't count Undraw, Empty Road and Undraw Spread. WHM uses what? 3 per minute? Assize, Tetra and Plenary? I'm not counting Benison since sometimes you wanna save it.
On AST are at least 6 per minute.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Don't start victimizing AST

---

First of all, hello interpretation. I didn't victimize AST. I was comparing its oGCDs to WHM ones.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

I agree with you that the Malefic III change was needed from a QoL standpoint but it should have come with a potency nerf to compensate for the no longer clipped GCDs. Lightspeed and Aspected Helios changes are fine imo but they need to take away either pDPS or rDPS.

---

It should not have a nerf. AST is the healer that didn't get any upgrade on its DPS filling spell this expansion. They should buff WHM since they're doing less than both SCH and AST.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Yes, I am. Because the oGCDs WHM has is used extremely often while ASTs most used oGCD is now Earthly Star and essential dignity. Cards were completely fixed.

---

"Extremely often"? 2 per minute? How is that extremely often? Logic says hi.
Cards were fixed but it is still in there. It is still an oGCD.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

WHM is constantly clipping their OGCD heals and mobility is a huge issue for them.

---

They're not constantly clipping their oCGD heals, they clip what? 2 GCDs each minute?
But yeah I do agree with you about the lack of movement skill on WHM, but there's a easy fix by just increasing the initial damage of Aero II.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ghishlain

I can understand where you're coming from regarding the maximum DPS for an AST, but that would also imply that it would take several things not into account including card buffs that cause AST to clip their GCDs. It would seem odd given the cards themselves give an effect to the AST so by not including that in their calculations, it would actually imply S-E has missed an important component of the AST kit as a whole.

Which then leads me to question other things but given the design direction of how healer's have been since 3.0, I'm not too surprised either.

---

Well, Benefic I+II have a 2.0s cast time for a reason. It's only when you're doing AoE healing or DPS that you really see the clipping issues.

Now most vet healers know that AoE healing and DPS is much of what we do now, but this is the same balancing team that made lily generation tied to single target heals, so I don't think they got that same memo. I'm convinced that they thought that you should simply be weaving cards with Benefic, or something to that effect.

SE is really reluctant to accept that healers in this game actively DPS and will continue to do so unless game mechanics are pretty much overhauled in a future expansion. They seem to think only cutting edge groups and the ilk have healers DPS, but its way more widespread than that. That misconception has been at the root of many of WHM's balance issues since 3.0, honestly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caduagm

It should not have a nerf. AST is the healer that didn't get any upgrade on its DPS filling spell this expansion. They should buff WHM since they're doing less than both SCH and AST.

---

I've got only a few more mins so for now my biggest problem with your post - no, please, not this. This will just keep the endless wheel of buffing everyone going. AST didn't get a flat pDPS increase because it didn't need one, this one was clearly unforseen by the devs when they addressed the clipping.

By having one Dot and on a much longer duration AST loses fewer nuke GCDs per fight than WHM to dot refreshing and now also clips less than WHM when using oGCDs. At some point the basic potency difference between Stone IV and Malefic III isn't enough anymore.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

By having one Dot and on a much longer duration AST loses fewer nuke GCDs per fight than WHM to dot refreshing and now also clips less than WHM when using oGCDs. At some point the basic potency difference between Stone IV and Malefic III isn't enough anymore.

---

I don't think that line of thinking really makes sense though. If being a DoT is a drawback --and it must be if the catch is it does more damage in the long run than the upfront damage alternatives -- then isn't having a shorter duration a boon? In this case, whm gets to use their stronger spell more often than ast gets to use theirs. To take it even further, if you shortened the duration of aero has much as you could, making it deal all it's damage upfront, you'd replace every stone IV cast with aero and come out ahead.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caduagm

It should not have a nerf. AST is the healer that didn't get any upgrade on its DPS filling spell this expansion. They should buff WHM since they're doing less than both SCH and AST.

---

I agree with Caduagm, WHM needs a buff. Nerfing AST isnt the solution, SCH will remain ontop and we always get two other types of healers fighting for the beggars choice.

Since SCH wont get nerfed and never will be (coming from a player who have played healer since 1.0 and started heavily in 2.0) the only way we can reach the SCH is through buffs to stand on equal grounds.

AST's as it is now in 4.3 is a great all around healer, if WHM would get a considered buff in DMG and maybe another lily fix (a real fix) we could see not WHM and AST fighting for the same spot but acctually starting a new meta with AST/WHM being another choice rather then just SCH/X for every raid.

BTW ppl stating WHM is still the dungeon king, I beg to differ as WHM even here arent on Max parsers or dps anymore in the expert dungeons, every new ilvl increase boost the SCH up (%) even higher in dungeons.

https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/14#b...spec=WhiteMage WHM

https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/14#b...l&spec=Scholar SCH

And I know these charts arent showing bursts or overall dps, im just trying to say that WHM isnt so amazing in speed runs as ppl make it out they are (and is supposed to be where they excel in dps and therefore dont need raid dpsing apparently).

As we see here https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/14#bracket=4

WHM started overpowered because its role in FF history is one of the most powerful and rare classes there is, Holy was always one of the strongest spells used in FF games and is the reason why it started so strong. Obviously we cant have a class like that in an mmorpg for balance reasons, but WHM should atleast be the DPS king of healers considering they are using the greatest force of magic that is supposed to be comparable to Black Mages.

I dont need raid utility aslong as I know WHM makes up for it by being a WHM, I always enjoyed the WHM cause it has the ability to carry a party during heavy loads and oh shit moments and ontop of that standing on its own in Personal DPS/AOE in dungeons and boss fights.

That was WHM to me and is what it should be, shouldnt try to compete with SCH and AST in raid utility, I rather WHM had a high ceiling like BLM and high skill to reach it but when you are there you excel over the others.

Not a basic starter healer that isnt good in anything but overhealing the tank, sorry for the spamm :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by _Winters_

BTW ppl stating WHM is still the dungeon king, I beg to differ as WHM even here arent on Max parsers or dps anymore in the expert dungeons, every new ilvl increase boost the SCH up (%) even higher in dungeons.

https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/14#b...spec=WhiteMage WHM

https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/14#b...l&spec=Scholar SCH

---

I wouldn't put too much stock in those rankings since it seems very buggy or selective about what actually gets entered.

A quick flick through some logs I uploaded last year:

500 dps ahead of the top whm and 800 dps ahead of the top SCH on Ala Mhigo in those rankings

700 / 600 dps ahead on Kugane

500 / 1450! dps ahead on Temple

A few caveats to note:

These were all without cleric stance because I'm lazy so there's more room to be made there if I pulled my finger out.

These were also from last tier so I would have been around ilvl 330/340 by that point at best (I was incredibly unlucky with healer gear in Deltascape).

I've not got anything from the current dungeons to link due to not needing tomes in forever and being unable to figure out why I don't get ranked. If I can solve that then I'll certainly have a go.

*edit* Whoops, chopped out part of my post!

I'm actually A OK with SCH snapping on my heels for dungeon damage though, it's important to note that a SCH's AoE is still somewhat dot dependant and as such they are fairly reliant on a sub par group with a reliable Tank to really shine here. If you've got two top notch DPS that are both aoeing trash down hard, a SCH isn't going to keep competitive.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by _Winters_

AST's as it is now in 4.3 is a great all around healer, if WHM would get a considered buff in DMG and maybe another lily fix (a real fix) we could see not WHM and AST fighting for the same spot but acctually starting a new meta with AST/WHM being another choice rather then just SCH/X for every raid.
]

---

To be honest, I think it's more likely that if they buff whm damage it would actually just make sch/whm more prominent than it already is, if anything. I think both ast and whm are solid healers, but sch just stands way above them, and that's the problem. The failing of the AST/WHM pairing isn't that whm is weak -- whm sees plenty of play in raiding in the SCH/WHM pair-- it's that sch is way above noct ast.