Another WHM chicken little sees the sky falling. The sky is an AST.

i feel like the dev in SE is using lottery system instead of prioritizing which is which.

"ok its a new season, time to draw a new lottery"
*draw a paper with warrior name on it*
"i know warrior is fine but because i just draw a warrior paper, we need to change warrior again, get to work people"

i mean... iam not whm but even i know just by looking at this healer board that whm is keep getting shunned by SE lol

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Originally Posted by gumas

i mean... iam not whm but even i know just by looking at this healer board that whm is keep getting shunned by SE lol

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But there's also priority involved. We yelled at them about PI and they made it better. We complained about the lily requirement on DB and they fixed it. The stuff that needs fixing now is annoying, sure. But it's not like the job is broken. WHM works pretty well.

I think some perspective would be useful, here.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

The stuff that needs fixing now is annoying, sure. But it's not like the job is broken. WHM works pretty well.


I think some perspective would be useful, here.

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I agree. AST also wasn't broken though. Clipping your GCD with card actions was annoying. A. Helios not having quite the range I'm used to on Medica II is annoying. MP management is the only real thing that was addressed that wasn't strictly in that same train of thought but they even went the extra mile and took away the dps penalty on Lightspeed while they were at it which was another little annoying thing on AST.

I don't think your intention was to come off implying that AST in it's current, pre-4.3 buffs iteration was unplayably broken (though I could be wrong) but suggesting the current AST changes are more necessary than some of the updates WHM could use doesn't sit right with me.

The difference is they aren't going to reimagine the lily gimmick mid-expansion so WHM won't get the changes it needs.

Would just wait for the patch notes. There's a lot of apprehension snowballing off of what is almost entirely speculation.

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Originally Posted by Shihen

Would just wait for the patch notes. There's a lot of apprehension snowballing off of what is almost entirely speculation.

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Considering 3.3 and 3.4, it's not looking good for WHM. AST is about to turbobuffed.

I imagine we won't see a Lily rework until 5.0 to be honest. Despite how fundamentally useless the Lily system is for PvE content, the core of the WHM kit is still very capable. I'm going to play some devil's advocate here and hypothesize that S-E isn't really tweaking the Lily system much as any move towards making the Lily system be more impactful will most likely lead to a large shift in the healer balance. It's probably better and easier to re-purpose Lilies when 5.0 hits just because the balance will need to be adjusted anyway with the expanded kits.

Back on the topic at hand, considering AST isn't "lolmeme" status like it was at it's inception in 3.0, I highly doubt we'll see any super buffs leading up to the 4.4 raid tier. If they did, it would just shatter the player's confidence in the development team even further. WHM's core kit still has strengths that neither AST nor SCH can replicate. Even if the WHM kit's strengths aren't speedkill meta worthy, it is certainly still progression meta worthy and is not something to ignore because progression will always exist as long as the raid community continues to grow.

Gonna be honest, I never had to use lightspeed before to be a good AST. It wasnot even on my bar. Now, I might consider it.

Yeah, I always liked trying to use it for movement or AoE heavy phases but on all but O8S you invariably end up wanting to click it off long before it's finished =/

If SE do remove the damage down component from it, that'll make it a much more versatile and useful cooldown across pretty much any level of content <3

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Yeah, I always liked trying to use it for movement or AoE heavy phases but on all but O8S you invariably end up wanting to click it off long before it's finished =/

If SE do remove the damage down component from it, that'll make it a much more versatile and useful cooldown across pretty much any level of content <3

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To be fair, as much as I dislike the sweeping buffs AST seems to be getting again, the Lightspeed change is the most needed.
Lightspeed even since 3.0 never felt like a buff, it always felt like you were losing too much to make use of it. At least now it'll feel like an actual buff..

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

To be fair, as much as I dislike the sweeping buffs AST seems to be getting again, the Lightspeed change is the most needed.
Lightspeed even since 3.0 never felt like a buff, it always felt like you were losing too much to make use of it. At least now it'll feel like an actual buff..

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I agree, I'm loving the sound of the Lightspeed changes, plus the cast time reductions. It'll finally feel like the time mage love child it's supposed to be.
The potency buffs feel a little unecessary.

I know I'm just whacking a hornet's nest here, but here's an update translation from various JP websites that have reported on the upcoming patch. Quoted AST adjustment can be found below.

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[Astrologian]
Astrologian will have precise adjustments, such as fixing the problem of "draw" biting into your GCDs and solving their MP problems. Overall, their DPS magic spells will have their cast times reduced and they will also adjust the potency and required MP for healing (note:They said aspected helios in the previous live letter).

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So, um, speculate away!

Yep, potency buffs on Aspected Helios. Still not sure if it's Noct exclusive or not, but this is just not sitting well at all with me. It really didn't need a buff.
And from the way it's said here, it may not actually be exclusive to Aspected Helios...

Patch notes couldn't come sooner...

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

So, um, speculate away!

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Sometimes they word it dodgy, so they could be saying the tradeoff for the faster DPS casts is a slight nerf in potency. I doubt it though, given that it's already the weakest nuke of the three.

If it actually is related to Aspected Helios, I'd imagine Noct only, seeing as they've always been clueless with that sect. We will have to wait and seeeeee. I would agree with the doomsayers this once though, it would be quite unnecessary to give Diurnal a buff to healing.

Potency buffs aimed at noct would make sense given SCH's clear supremacy here at the moment.

If it puts us in a similar situation to early progression in 4.0 where AST was actually the marginally safer choice for the barrier healer slot then that's not a bad thing in my eyes.

OP, I'm sorry you were having a bad day :(.

I don't think the buff to Aspected Helios is gonna be a potency buff unless it's exclusive to NoctAST, but more of a cast time or MP cost buff. Particularly the later, since they seem to be cutting back on the weakness they admittedly gave AST on purpose. We'll see.

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

While I do agree that AST will obviously gain more pDPS from these changes, I do think the Lightspeed change is being a little overrated. It will make some fights a bit easier, as you just need to smash one button and then run like a headless chicken, but generally in raids I have found that one Swiftcast and Broil II has been enough for me to position myself to safety and then continue casting. I can't think of any raids where you need to be on the move for that long, and where you wouldn't be able to cast in between moving.

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The reason this change is a bit of a big deal is less about the movement utility and more about the MP management, though. Once you have a heavy healing phase properly coordinated in prog, Lightspeed will make AST's biggest weakness (mediocre MP management) a borderline non-issue. Coupled with removing the DPS penalty, this also means AST can get a bunch of weaves in during Lightspeed, instead of turning it off the moment it wasn't needed anymore.

Malefic III's lower cast time will also allow AST to get some more casts off per fight. I'm calculating around 5-8 extra casts on any fight that is longer than 7 minutes, given that you have to use around 3 or 4 oGCDs per minute just to manage your cards. Weaving in ED, Lightspeed, Swiftcast, Earthly Star, etc will also be a lot easier and help AST's personal DPS a super tiny bit.

The MP economy buff is what I think might not be a terribly good idea, though.

Edit: Just saw the translated JP post. Yeah, figured it would be a MP cost reduction buff.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

It's always been this way, and it always will be so long as WHM keeps it's identity as a pure healer. It's just way too razor thin and flimsy of a idea to build on.

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While I agree that "pure healer" is too thin a theme to build on, I don't think that's what's denying WHM value at this point. There are many things you could excuse of, or would even be a perfect fit for, a pure healer that would help to mitigate WHM's shortcoming.

For instance, you could as easily have a "pure healer" whose heals grant bonus Attack Magic Potency (say, stacking at gradually tapering effect over some 12 seconds or so, continuously fading), which would push towards tighter rDPS parity without having to go so far as to eclipse a SCH or AST's niche; it'd still largely be a WHM's or "pure healer's" niche in that it wants intensive healing dealt, but simply now rewards those scenarios further, as not to be denied from all fights and compositions.

Prelim notes are out.
Lightspeed is now 120s down from 150. On top of it getting reduced by 10 seconds every time Essential Dignity is used.
I guess it's about what we expected. AST definitely won't have MP issues anymore.

Aspected Helios thankfully isn't a potency increase, but a cast time reduction to fit Medica II. I actually never realized it was 3s in the first place...

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Prelim notes are out.
Lightspeed is now 120s down from 150. On top of it getting reduced by 10 seconds every time Essential Dignity is used.
I guess it's about what we expected. AST definitely won't have MP issues anymore.

Aspected Helios thankfully isn't a potency increase, but a cast time reduction to fit Medica II. I actually never realized it was 3s in the first place...

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Medica II is 3 seconds as well. I actually don't understand that change considering they didn't change Medica II and they're effectively the same spell.

WD might actually be a stealth nerf. The change from a spell to ability will mean that it won’t be usable with rouse afaik?

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

WD might actually be a stealth nerf. The change from a spell to ability will mean that it won’t be usable with rouse afaik?

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Yep. Rouse only affects spells. This also means that fey illumination and mantra don't interact with it either too. I'll admit I thought that it made eos even better til I saw the ability change. So now, Rouse will only affect embrace until it probably will get change in a later patch.

I think the cast time reduction of aspected helios is just a buff for noct sect because succor cast time is 2 seconds while aspected helios was 3.

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Originally Posted by Maltothoris

Yep. Rouse only affects spells. This also means that fey illumination and mantra don't interact with it either too. I'll admit I thought that it made eos even better til I saw the ability change. So now, Rouse will only affect embrace until it probably will get change in a later patch.

I think the cast time reduction of aspected helios is just a buff for noct sect because succor cast time is 2 seconds while aspected helios was 3.

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That's possible, but it is ultimately a buff in Dirunal too. Small as it may be.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

WD might actually be a stealth nerf. The change from a spell to ability will mean that it won’t be usable with rouse afaik?

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Yes. For a newbie SCH, WD is getting buffed since the baseline is going up. For SCHs that would always use it with Rouse (because why wouldn't you?), this is effectively a nerf, although not having a cast time is nice.

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Originally Posted by GunksFoy

Medica II is 3 seconds as well. I actually don't understand that change considering they didn't change Medica II and they're effectively the same spell.

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Succor isn't 3s and Aspected Helios is also that.

Overall it looks like these were fairly well thought out changes. I don't expect the sky to fall on WHM.

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Originally Posted by GunksFoy

Medica II is 3 seconds as well. I actually don't understand that change considering they didn't change Medica II and they're effectively the same spell.

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Jeez, I thought all this time that they were both 2.5 seconds.
Still, while it sounds unfair on paper, this is most likely for the Nocturnal side of Aspected Helios as people have already said.

Whispering Dawn going to an ability from a spell, now without Rouse is about a 140 potency nerf. That is without the additional things such as Warrior Defiance, Convo, Fey Illum, Mantra.

Rouse will probably be best now for outside of Fey Union windows.

Well... That is it. Time to level an SCH or an AST if I want to raid.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by EaMett

I'm definitely willing to entertain the idea but there are a few issues with your post. Putting aside the fact your example is an anecdotal sample size of 1 I'm more that willing to concede that it could be indicative of something bigger. With that said you make a few assumptions that aren't necessarily true.
1) A 50% whm and 50% ast parse don't mean the ast and whm are of the same skill level. I suspect there's quite a gap actually (this would warrant a dedicated post)
2) pdps and rdps for AST are two distinct mechanics. You assume the players skill expresses equally in both fields.
3) Logs from sub 90% players aren't a viable source of information. The lack of consistency in skill mean the interpretation of the data really can't be used in a class balancing scenario.

I also want to point out that RNG has been less of an issue since the changes to spear. And part of the AST rdps grows with the raid dps, so it's normal to not see good return on cards if half your group are pulling grays.

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Well I decided to play WHM on my main this week since it is more geared than my alt and get you some more data, so here are the results.

Took my best AST parses against my new WHM parses which are close in percentile to my AST bests (I'm decently skilled on WHM, so it is quite close level of skill for both AST and WHM and since both played by me overall same skill ceiling)

These images are showing the All Parses percentile not the ranked.
My logs are public so feel free to go and look yourself.
Parses from O5S-O7S for my AST all have most DPS jobs at blue-purple so they would make decent use of the cards.
If you want to recalculate with the rdps calculator to see the results for yourself simply type "ffxiv raid dps calculator" in google search and use the herokuapp link. I am simply not direct linking it because of forum rules.


Phantom Train

AST pDPS
https://i.imgur.com/dfyaRn2.jpg

AST rDPS total
https://i.imgur.com/LsdZBIZ.jpg

WHM pDPS
https://i.imgur.com/mQ4XqX8.jpg

WHM Item Level: 370
AST Item Level: 370
Percentile difference: AST is 2% higher
DPS difference: 9.1 DPS
Cards: 4 AoE Balance & 1 AoE Spear
Higher contributor: AST by 9.1 DPS

Conclusion: Basically equal. AST is 2 percentile higher so it makes sense they ended up with a bit more rDPS total. 9.1 DPS is a negligible difference.


Demon Chadarnook

AST pDPS
https://i.imgur.com/uTUcEfK.jpg

AST rDPS total
https://i.imgur.com/qCoi9zS.jpg

WHM pDPS
https://i.imgur.com/kVYL2zR.jpg

WHM Item Level: 370
AST Item Level: 366 (older parse)
Percentile difference: WHM is 9% higher
DPS difference: 158.4
Cards: 7 AoE Balances
Higher contributor: WHM by 158.4 DPS

Conclusion: Basically equal if you take into account item level and percentile differences. 158.4 is a nice bit higher, but WHM did better percentile by 9 more percent and item level was a tiny bit higher, so it also makes sense AST lost out despite the whopping 7 AoE Balances that were obtained.


Guardian

AST pDPS
https://i.imgur.com/GYRv3AS.jpg

AST rDPS total
https://i.imgur.com/cFOl06f.jpg

WHM pDPS
https://i.imgur.com/QF32cz7.jpg

WHM Item Level: 370
AST Item Level: 370
Percentile difference: AST is 10% higher
DPS difference: 53.4
Cards: 4-5 AoE Balances (seems I missed 2 DPS one time) & 2 Single Target Balances
Higher contributor: AST by 53.4 DPS

Conclusion: Basically equal. AST was 10 percentile higher so it makes sense it did a bit more contribution.


So I just did this quick to give you some more data, take from it what you will, but to me it seems like AST and WHM can contribute around the same amount right now.

Sometimes AST may pull ahead of WHM cause nice RNG, but sometimes WHM can pull ahead of AST if the AST gets bad RNG and then other times they are quite close to being equal. 100% balance is impossible so you can't expect them to be 100% equal at all times and especially since RNG fluctuates. Upcoming changes may change things, but we'll have to retest and see how much of a difference it is.

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

Well... That is it. Time to level an SCH or an AST if I want to raid.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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You think the entire raid scene is going to blacklist WHM because AST has an easier time fitting in DPS and card drawing at the same time?

I just... I'm not seeing it.

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

Well... That is it. Time to level an SCH or an AST if I want to raid.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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I'm assuming this is sarcasm? Because if not...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tridus

You think the entire raid scene is going to blacklist WHM because AST has an easier time fitting in DPS and card drawing at the same time?

I just... I'm not seeing it.

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Not to the point of every PF/static locking out WHM (specially while proging). But I feel that those buffs leaves WHM in a pretty bad situation.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

WD might actually be a stealth nerf. The change from a spell to ability will mean that it won’t be usable with rouse afaik?

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Yep, it's a stealth nerf at the highest tiers of skill - approximately a 14.3% potency nerf (79 potency post patch versus 92 potency currently when combined with Rouse).

Just means Rouse will not be used in conjunction with Whisper Dawn. It'll also mean SCH pet HPS will be less spike-orientated since you got more tools to use in that one minute window to help moderate the pet HPS.

I do also agree that I like the instant cast change too.

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

Not to the point of every PF/static locking out WHM (specially while proging). But I feel that those buffs leaves WHM in a pretty bad situation.

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Out of curiosity, why do you feel this way?

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Originally Posted by Tridus

Succor isn't 3s and Aspected Helios is also that.

Overall it looks like these were fairly well thought out changes. I don't expect the sky to fall on WHM.

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I don't disagree necessarily. I just think they could have easily tied the 2.5s cast to Noct and left Diurnal at 3s. Overall, it's a very tiny buff as you don't actually use THAT many Med II/A. Helios, I was just pointing out that it is a buff. I actually think the Malefic changes are the bigger buff. No card clipping means more spells per fight overall, as well as a shorter cast time meaning more mobility. All in all, I think Ast saw some pretty large buffs with this patch. Whether that's good or bad is for someone else to debate, as I don't have any healers at 70 atm.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Out of curiosity, why do you feel this way?

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Because AST gained a great buff on its personal DPS (malefic I/II/III will be 40% faster w/o lightspeed), what will increase his DPS contribution that already outshine the DPS contribution of a WHM. And with the lightspeed buff, AST will have any downside besides RNG when drawing cards.

SCH will have an AoE regen that heals at a 840 potency total without cast time or mana cost. Medica II heals at a 700 potency AND consumes MP AND is a GCD spell with a 3 seconds cast time.

On top of that, no buffs to WHM. No raise to its DPS contribution, no raid utility... It's like that S-E wants to enforce SCH/AST comp.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

Because AST gained a great buff on its personal DPS (malefic I/II/III will be 40% faster w/o lightspeed), what will increase his DPS contribution that already outshine the DPS contribution of a WHM. And with the lightspeed buff, AST will have any downside besides RNG when drawing cards.

SCH will have an AoE regen that heals at a 840 potency total without cast time or mana cost. Medica II heals at a 700 potency AND consumes MP AND is a GCD spell with a 3 seconds cast time.

On top of that, no buffs to WHM. No raise to its DPS contribution, no raid utility... It's like that S-E wants to enforce SCH/AST comp.

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Ah, I see. I don't want to sound offensive but you've misinterpreted the changes and don't quite have a full understanding of how the SCH pet works either. I hope I can clear it up with the small text wall below.

The AST change is a cast time only change. The recast remains the same at 2.5s. Even though AST will cast their DPS spells faster, their GCD will still be under the same constraint as the other healers. The cast time reduction will allow the AST to actually weave oGCDs (Cards, ED) better without clipping their GCD, making them a bit less clunky. They will probably gain about 2-3 more GCDs per minute and not gain an additional 40% increase in GCDs.

The second thing about the SCH change is the fact that the fairies suffer a stat hit. A fairy's poteny is actually about 66% as powerful as how it's stated on the tooltip. This means Embrace is 165 potency/tick and Whispering Dawn will become approximately 79 potency/tick (total of 553 potency) once the patch hits. This is actually a nerf to overall total potency because the change from Spell to Ability on Whispering Dawn means it won't gain bonuses from things like Fey Illumination, Rouse, Convalescence, Mantra, Defiance, etc..

I hope this little blurb alleviates your concerns regarding WHM :)

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

Because AST gained a great buff on its personal DPS (malefic I/II/III will be 40% faster w/o lightspeed), what will increase his DPS contribution that already outshine the DPS contribution of a WHM. And with the lightspeed buff, AST will have any downside besides RNG when drawing cards.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC, Lightspeed doesn't reduce your GCD. So while Malefic will be faster, you can't get more of them under it aside from what you gain from not clipping due to cards. It mostly just means you can actually use Maleific during Lightspeed because the damage loss is gone.

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SCH will have an AoE regen that heals at a 840 potency total without cast time or mana cost. Medica II heals at a 700 potency AND consumes MP AND is a GCD spell with a 3 seconds cast time.

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SCH already had that, and it was stronger. Rouse not working on it any more is a nerf to it at the high end of play.

Quote:

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On top of that, no buffs to WHM. No raise to its DPS contribution, no raid utility... It's like that S-E wants to enforce SCH/AST comp.

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Again, I'm not seeing it. We'll have to see how it plays out but I'm just not seeing how this dooms WHM.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

SCH will have an AoE regen that heals at a 840 potency total without cast time or mana cost. Medica II heals at a 700 potency AND consumes MP AND is a GCD spell with a 3 seconds cast time..

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Pet actions potency aren't the same as healers actions potencies because of how the pet scaling works.
Their healing actions is around 80% of their actual potencies. So it's not a raw 840 potency, but more something like 700, so the same as Medica II (because of 2 less heal ticks).
Besides, "will have", not really, because right now, that's what you can do by pairing Rouse + WD (and any other healing buff such as Fey Illumination, Mantra).

So, that change to WD is a slight nerf and isn't something to complain about.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

Because AST gained a great buff on its personal DPS (malefic I/II/III will be 40% faster w/o lightspeed), what will increase his DPS contribution that already outshine the DPS contribution of a WHM. And with the lightspeed buff, AST will have any downside besides RNG when drawing cards.

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Only the cast time is reduced, not the global cooldown. He might be able to cast some more malefic because he'll has more mobility and less clipping, but it won't be a huge gain since potencies remains the same. WHM will still outdps Astrologian. Besides, Astrologian will still stay more GCD reliant for healing that a WHM (Benison every 30s, plenary as an additionnal aoe heal, both Tetra and Bene, still Cure III where Ast might need 2 helios ect, CU stopping ast to move...).

WD overhealed a lot even in savege contents, so it think i wont actually hit much

With a proper use on dedicated mechanics and coordination with the other healer, it healed just what was needeed.

Oh can now more easily dps, less stress on MP, and less clipping, and free movement..

I will see come patch day but I am thinking about putting my staff away, less reason to play Whm if it has very little going. Cure III nobody stacks for that anyway, Mp also seems like it shouldn't even be a issue anymore. Oh well.

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Originally Posted by Jxnibbles

Oh can now more easily dps, less stress on MP, and less clipping, and free movement..

I will see come patch day but I am thinking about putting my staff away, less of a reason to play Whm if it has very little going for it oh well.

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You'll probably still want to play WHM for first week of 24 mans. It's going to be a progression-style wipe fest for that whole week and WHMs heavy resource pool will help you get through that mess.

Yeah the SCH WD is a potency nerf (One I'll gladly take in return for it being instant for some more effective timing), so WHM should be happy about that.

FU change is nice. It just means a person doesn't have to NOT use FU just because they know they'll be using a pet skill in the very near future because of the hassle of turning it on/off. Now it's less hassle, but overall it doesn't affect its potency so it doesn't affect WHM.

AST change doesn't change their GCD. So they'll still cast the same malefics per minute, they just get time to weave some card actions (a much needed change to reduce clipping), and the Aspected Helios buff was not a potency buff as people feared. This shouldn't affect WHM much, if at all.

WHM has nothing to worry about. They're still prog and pug clear meta (SCH/AST meta is for speed/parse runs).