Is limit break not a thing?

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

Wait, what? You can use Esuna there (I have not gone in as a healer, and things are so chaotic that I don't have a chance to pay attention to other party members bars, aside from which tank has prey if I'm tanking.

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Inside the healer ghost, it debuffs you with reduced healing. Says a lot that since week one you've been able to brute force through it with off globals since the ghost kills itself before the third cast.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

I can get where you're coming from with "you are responsible for avoiding avoidable mechanics." Within the realm of a 24 man though you do kind of have to assume they're all incapable of that, I'd count things like Hashmal as important times to take esuna.

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While I agree, 9/10 nobody Esuna's the bleed. Not even when it's the healer themselves who has it(probably because they never took it to begin with).

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

Inside the healer ghost, it debuffs you with reduced healing. Says a lot that since week one you've been able to brute force through it with off globals since the ghost kills itself before the third cast.

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Oh no, the last time I tried the cheese strat, I totally missed both Onslaught and Upheaval. I killed the ghost...about a second after the party died lol. But WAR was a recent thing - up until a few weeks ago, I only went in as PLD, SMN, and DRG.

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Originally Posted by Avatre

While I agree, 9/10 nobody Esuna's the bleed. Not even when it's the healer themselves who has it(probably because they never took it to begin with).

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Fair, and if enough people got hit esuna is only saving so many of them. People need to use the tools they bring or they really are dead slots.

The problem with esuna is that SE moved to make debuffs uncleansable as punishment mechanics for the most part, while removing cleansables ones. I don't think any HB dungeon has much of any of them. So people aren't used to a useful esuna as much any more/

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

and the healer role actions are abysmally thought out and need a good rework.

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That part is entirely true.

I have one hotbar with my limit break on it regardless of which class I am on. I have noticed a lack of lb in dungeons the last several months. Even when I say anything about it. :(

Lb3 melee is always the strongest, its usually use by a ninja on progression or clear savage etc. On weekly o5678s farm I've been joining there's never any moment that I see it use by any melee, unless alot of death or mistakes especially at o8s 2nd forsaken lol thats when healer lb3 comes handy.
Whoever said caster / range lb is more effective makes me chuckle a bit lool.

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Originally Posted by giwaman

Whoever said caster / range lb is more effective makes me chuckle a bit lool.

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It's situational. Since you can only get LB3 during a boss, unless there are adds that it can decimate(two caster LB3 take the adds during Hashmal to ~10-15% remaining), then yes melee LB is more powerful.

During a dungeon run with a massive wall to wall pull, a caster or ranged DPS LB would be more ideal as you can knock the HP down a fair chunk while your co-DPS keeps on AoEing as needed.

I have lb on common bar.
As a tank I hate typing...
OK lb already. It's like people are afraid to use it.
In dungeon content
Tank and Healer lb is 100% useless
And DPs just speeds up the fight s few seconds so it really doesn't matter much but I feel your pain op

There are a few places signal bar lb saves time on large groups of mobs with aoe lb but for the most part there is no reason not to use it once it hits full bar.

When I'm on a DPS job I notice that...

73.2% of the time I manage to win the 'limit break race' - which IMO means the other DPS isn't even looking for it.

11.7% of the time the tank kites the boss OUT of my limit break and I'm like... dude... where you going with that?

8.3% of the time the tank limit breaks because lolwut...

1.2% of the time the healer LBs because... yeah... why not?

5.6% of the time the boss goes down before I can LB and I'm like... oops...

When I'm on a healer... you can take that 73.2%, cut it to about 40.6%, cut that 1.2% for healer down to a statistical 'once ever in susano when I suddenly found everyone else was dead'...

And bump "nobody LBs" up to 39.4%...

:cool:

When I'm on a tank... cut that tank LB down to another one when I was like "oooo... not that keybind... ya'll weren't looking at that right?"


I have had countless runs though... where it is down to the wire, one person is alive, the boss is at 0.123% of health... and the triple LB is up... and the living person is either the healer or a DPS... and the entire group is shouting LB into chat...

and nothing happens... even as we wait for upwards of 2 minutes of that guy kiting around and not doing any meaningful damage... even as we watch a boss pause to line up some slow cast that takes 57-times longer than the LB... :confused:

The thing I've come to despise when playing Ninja, is going to all the trouble of setting up a perfect Shadow Fang/TA LB to finish off the boss, only to have it taken by the ranged DPS, or worse, a tank or healer.

From what I remember as a new player, they don't really introduce Limit Breaks to you. I don't think I knew how to use it (because the icon is hidden in the actions menu) until most of the way through ARR.

From my perspective, it was fear that led me to not use LBs. Because you didn't want to get yelled at for using LB at a bad time or wasting it. (I was also a BLM through the story) Now, I don't care because I understand how LB works. But it definitely isn't explained well enough for new people.

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Originally Posted by giwaman

Lb3 melee is always the strongest

Whoever said caster / range lb is more effective makes me chuckle a bit lool.

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On a single target, yes.

But in a dungeon (or alliance raid if the bar won't drain after the boss), the most damage will come from an AoE LB.

AoE LB1 on 2 targets > melee LB1
AoE LB1 on 4 targets > melee LB2
AoE LB1 on 7 targets > melee LB3

That's all AoE LB 1. It should be used on trash to shave the most time off the run.

Haven't really been a fan of an advanced novice hall, since I believe that some aspects of the game should not be told outright but researched to inspire an self improvement in a player, that said I think they should really consider doing one now. It would be good to explain more directly stuff like jobs, limit breaks and role actions (and maybe SE will be forced on making good ones too)

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

N
-may not be useful at all (shinryu in particular, he has so much hp melee LB is less effective)

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You serious mate? LB3 is always used in mid-high end content. It's the single hardest hitting attack in the game. Boss HP pools don't make it less effective, if anything it makes it MORE valuable.

What I see most often, is the LB either going out too late in dungeons (boss at ~4% HP) or a ranged using it on single target when there's a melee in the party. I almost never see ranged LBs used strategically either.

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

You serious mate? LB3 is always used in mid-high end content. It's the single hardest hitting attack in the game. Boss HP pools don't make it less effective, if anything it makes it MORE valuable.

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It has very little importance. It's essentially a finishing blow, if you don't need either the healer LB to recover from a wipe, or the tank LB to mitigate a scripted attack. So people don't use it a lot because it is just that. They save LB3 for healers, and use it for when its obvious they wont wipe. It's not really indispensible in the same way others can be. It's just more potency, and in duty finder stuff, theres no enrage so just keeping on will get the same result.

I guess im saying there's no real strategic uses for it as is, except in pvp. The only one I can think of is chrysalis and using it on the tear, mostly because people don't trust the tanks to get the meteors.

Actually now that I think of it, the chrysalis is a big reason why ppl dont use it, people go crazy if a newbie doesn't know to save it for the tear. I mean you can pretty easily beat the tear without it, but that's the first real negative instance of using a melee break most people face. I mean people are downright rude if they do that and you wipe after.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

It has very little importance. It's essentially a finishing blow,

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Then you're using it wrong.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

It has very little importance. It's essentially a finishing blow, if you don't need either the healer LB to recover from a wipe, or the tank LB to mitigate a scripted attack. So people don't use it a lot because it is just that. They save LB3 for healers, and use it for when its obvious they wont wipe. It's not really indispensible in the same way others can be. It's just more potency, and in duty finder stuff, theres no enrage so just keeping on will get the same result.

I guess im saying there's no real strategic uses for it as is, except in pvp. The only one I can think of is chrysalis and using it on the tear, mostly because people don't trust the tanks to get the meteors.

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In God Kefka, you will have potentially three uses of melee LB3, which is nearly 30,000 potency. Unless you are a top tier static, you simply aren't making up the sheer amount of damage that does. Melee LB3 is also a huge boost when going for initial clears. It's asinine to hold LB for healers and tanks outside prog or cheese strats as it's simply giving up damage for no good reason.

Of course it doesn't matter nearly as much in dungeons, normal mode or 24-mans because the vast majority of that content is a pullover.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Actually now that I think of it, the chrysalis is a big reason why ppl dont use it, people go crazy if a newbie doesn't know to save it for the tear. I mean you can pretty easily beat the tear without it, but that's the first real negative instance of using a melee break most people face. I mean people are downright rude if they do that and you wipe after.

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... you literally just contradicted yourself. Holding melee LB3 for the tear in Chrysalis is the definition of a strategic advantage as it completely trivializes the DPS check. I mean, seriously, I know you don't do hard content but this really highlights your ignorance on subjects you continuously interject in.

I used LB once on my main (the job I'm posting on). It was in Castrum Abania, the part when you're on that narrow walkway and a bunch of adds come out on all sides. I figured now might be a good time to try it, and I actually asked the group before you using it. They said go for it. I clicked it and...

It did like no damage. Seriously. My own AoEs were stronger, and RDMs aren't known for strong AoE. Now at 70, I don't even bother. I just let melee or the healer use it.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

In God Kefka...

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thought we meant duty finder here, not savage.

As for the use, yeah chrysalis is the only use i can think of for melee limit break and its only there because tanks screw up meteor; you can actually do it easy without it, its just habit. The main issue with chrys is tanks missing staying in the circles; if they do that you are fine, and if someone uses lb3 before or dcs and leaves us with 2 bars, you have to do it the intended way anyways.

And honestly, quit berating me, your passive aggressive sniping is getting old. I'm trying to explain why its not getting used in casual content. It's simply not necessary; there is no enrage timer, there are rarely single targets you need to nail, and its used as a finishing move if they didn't use healer lb3, tank lb, no one dced, etc. SE hasn't made it as must-use as it should be, and people often just don't use it because of that. It's the same as materia pre 70.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

thought we meant duty finder here, not savage.

As for the use, yeah chrysalis is the only use i can think of for melee limit break and its only there because tanks screw up meteor; you can actually do it easy without it, its just habit. The main issue with chrys is tanks missing staying in the circles; if they do that you are fine, and if someone uses lb3 before or dcs and leaves us with 2 bars, you have to do it the intended way anyways.

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Does it matter if it's Duty Finder or Savage? Both are not exclusive towards each other when determining whether or not the limit break is used or not used and how useful it may or may not be in certain conditions. It's not like the OP ever specified that we could only talk about duty finder and nothing else.

Also, SE did make it a must have in the normal raid of Alexander - Soul of the Creator mind you, which is casual content, without the tank LB3 during the segment of the fight where the larger Alexander comes out to Scott Summers you, if you didn't use it, it's an automatic wipe. I mean, I know so far this has only been one whole time, but it definitely warrants that SE did implement it as a must use specifically for that fight at least. I do remember getting a lot of comms on BLM when I would use it in Sohm Al (Hard) too on the last boss during his add phase to smite all of the evil scorpions, especially when I'd just do it automatically. That was nice.

What needs to happen is SE making it more aware in the beginning parts of the storyline and Novice Hall. Honestly, make it more apparent with using it in an instant even to highlight why the Limit Break may be necessary and the different ways it can be used depending on the level of the limit break and your role.

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

Does it matter if it's Duty Finder or Savage? .

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In the context of Kaiva asking it does. I mean, my point is that duty finder really doesn't provide the need for melee, but enrage definitely makes a need for it in ex/savage content. I was assuming they were asking for casual content.

A12N the reason I think why they don't do that is because all it takes is one person dcing to wipe out the limit break entirely. Even if they dc for a second, done. So you had forced wipes. And we also have issues now with slower LB generation, so they can't rely on them any more because of that; that's why no duplicate jobs in Byakko ex happened. The LB can really only be optional.

Eh, idk...apparently not many people are even doing hall. I mean, it doesn't seem to be working as much to educate the playerbase.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

In the context of Kaiva asking it does. I mean, my point is that duty finder really doesn't provide the need for melee, but enrage definitely makes a need for it in ex/savage content. I was assuming they were asking for casual content.

A12N the reason I think why they don't do that is because all it takes is one person dcing to wipe out the limit break entirely. Even if they dc for a second, done. So you had forced wipes. And we also have issues now with slower LB generation, so they can't rely on them any more because of that; that's why no duplicate jobs in Byakko ex happened. The LB can really only be optional.

Eh, idk...apparently not many people are even doing hall. I mean, it doesn't seem to be working as much to educate the playerbase.

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Issues with slower limit break generation now? The "no duplicate jobs" has been a thing since patch 3.2. This is not a new thing as it's been in the game for 2 years now. Having duplicate jobs interferes with the natural progression of the limit break bar. The devs enforced this so people wouldn't take double jobs into dungeons or anything requiring a full party to register. It's only more apparent now because people are using the tank LB3 method for Byakko and realized that having two jobs of the same will hurt the natural progression of the bar as opposed towards a party with no duplicate jobs. It's precisely the reason why some Savage raiders don't take double jobs with them either, it interferes with progression.

When you're unsynced and well overgeared for a fight, this is a non-issue, but this has always been a thing. People are just realizing it now because SE has made it more apparent and a lot of people either don't remember that detail 2 years ago or never bothered to read it.

Not using it is just a mistake. In EX roulette dungeon you could possibly use it once at level 1 and another time at level 2 on the final boss. Don't even get my started on EX/Savage where it's not uncommon to see 2/3 limit breaks used. The strongest move in the game should be used, period.

well yeah, and everyone should fill all their slots with t6 materia, eat food, and use potions. They should use knockback preventing abilities, things like erase and palisade, etc. It's just in casual content, it's not tuned that aggressively and people don't.

I use my LB in dungeons when I know its safe to do so. It can remove 10% off a boss' health in expert, which is a nice chunk, though it's used mostly as a finishing move.

I just wish SE would rework the LBs. I loved Skillchains in FFXI and I would love to see something like that come back, where there are individual LBs that people can chain together for greater effect.

Though it probably would see backlash from the less skilled players or random groups who have trouble chaining properly.

I haven't read the 10 past pages in the thread, so forgive me for any answers I may have missed.

It might depend on the duty, but I don't relate to OP's experience. I'm running both low lvl dungeons, trials and all the way up to lvl 70 stuff, not counting raids and ex trials. I play DRG myself, so in most cases I am the party's first choice of dps LB. I tend to save it until the final boss, usually finishing off or close to with LB. I never hear anyone complain about that. However, sometimes someone else will pop it during an earlier boss, or even trash encounters, ie. for BLM's aoe. Also, the tank will occationally lead the party with suggestions on what to do when, and these tanks tend to tell when they'd like the dps LB to be used (boss usually, but also BLM sometimes on earlier encounters, and sometimes to save it for healer's LB if necessary).
There has also been occations where I've been too late to trigger my LB, and the other DPS has done it to finish off the boss.

So no, I don't think it's not a thing. :)

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

thought we meant duty finder here, not savage.

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What difference does it make? Both are content where more damage is always good since it allows mechanic skips, faster clears or will often generate significantly higher results than your average Duty Finder will.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

And honestly, quit berating me, your passive aggressive sniping is getting old. I'm trying to explain why its not getting used in casual content. It's simply not necessary; there is no enrage timer, there are rarely single targets you need to nail, and its used as a finishing move if they didn't use healer lb3, tank lb, no one dced, etc. SE hasn't made it as must-use as it should be, and people often just don't use it because of that. It's the same as materia pre 70.

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You know what else gets old? Your constant interjections into content you either do not participate in or insisting your opinion is somehow the only opinion. LB being ignored in Duty Finder content does not magically make Melee LB3 inferior. A great number of people simply don't give a damn because DF is faceroll. That being said, it all depends on circumstance. To claim Melee LB3 is worthless is simply ignorant. That isn't a snipe, but fact.

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Originally Posted by Lium

I used LB once on my main (the job I'm posting on). It was in Castrum Abania, the part when you're on that narrow walkway and a bunch of adds come out on all sides. I figured now might be a good time to try it, and I actually asked the group before you using it. They said go for it. I clicked it and...

It did like no damage. Seriously. My own AoEs were stronger, and RDMs aren't known for strong AoE. Now at 70, I don't even bother. I just let melee or the healer use it.

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you sure? In my experience the LB1 on that bridge halves the life of the mobs at least.

There's no way that LB1 does LESS damage than normal RDM AoE. It's a good possibility that you either aimed the marker incorrectly, or the mobs were moved outside it's radius before it went off (both of which would cause it to miss the targets and do no damage). Caster LB1 should at least knock about 1/4th to 1/2 of most trash mobs HP. If it doesn't, it's probably just a mob that has lots of HP (and there are a few, especially in later duties).

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Originally Posted by Lium

I used LB once on my main (the job I'm posting on). It was in Castrum Abania, the part when you're on that narrow walkway and a bunch of adds come out on all sides. I figured now might be a good time to try it, and I actually asked the group before you using it. They said go for it. I clicked it and...

It did like no damage. Seriously. My own AoEs were stronger, and RDMs aren't known for strong AoE. Now at 70, I don't even bother. I just let melee or the healer use it.

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This isn't mathematically true. A caster LB1 is a 1.4k potency AoE.

In an absolute best-case scenario a RDM could hope to get off 1.2k potency spread over a bit more time using Scatter at full Mana and proccing enhanced Scatter/Dualcast(100) E.Moulinet×2(500) E.Scatter (600) Manafaction, E.Moulinet×3 (1.2k).

If you pop Embo after the first Scatter you'll have the first 2 E.Moulinets and E.Scatter buffed 10% (500×1.1=550) and the subsequent 3 E.Moulinets buffed 8% (600×1.08=648) so you end at a grand total of basically 1.3k potency over the course of 7GCDs. Add in Contre Sixte and on some of the enemies that are hit with the higher potencies of the attack you technically come out ahead of a caster LB1 but at the cost of gimping your ST in upcoming fights because you just burned all your Mana and CDs.

This is more time-consuming than Caster LB1, consumes more resources, has an adverse effect on upcoming damage you can put out and requires a perfect setup (beginning with full mana bars, getting the enhanced Scatter proc off of the first Scatter) which just isn't available all the time. Not to mention you need Embo and Manafaction off CD for it to even approach Caster LB1 damage.

tl;dr - just caster LB a large pack like that if you can. It's faster, easier and all around more efficent/accessible.

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Originally Posted by NewAgeDoom

The thing I've come to despise when playing Ninja, is going to all the trouble of setting up a perfect Shadow Fang/TA LB to finish off the boss, only to have it taken by the ranged DPS, or worse, a tank or healer.

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Shadow Fang's slashing bonus and TA have 0 impact on the damage a LB does. LB's damage calculation is a measure of average weapon ilvl of the party. Nothing external or internal impacts it, not even weakness.

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

Shadow Fang's slashing bonus and TA have 0 impact on the damage a LB does. LB's damage calculation is a measure of average weapon ilvl of the party. Nothing external or internal impacts it, not even weakness.

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That's showing my newness then. I apologize. Doesn't help it was still a physical ranged LB on a single target

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Originally Posted by NewAgeDoom

That's showing my newness then. I apologize. Doesn't help it was still a physical ranged LB on a single target

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All good - I just like to make sure there's no misinformation out there.

I actually forgot to mention there are some external factors that increase LB damage. I beleive Ravana's red phase does this, and there may be others, but that's the only example that comes to mind. However, the original statement, no player made external/internal effect changes LB damage.

There are multiple issues with the limit break.

1) It's not explained nearly enough.
2) Players are not exposed to it nearly enough.
3) Limit break is too limited in the content that is done most often.
4) The shared resource makes it problematic to use.
5) The long cast time/animation lock really hurts, especially with a lot of the content being made to be a dance parade of AoE's.
6) It does have special mechanics that are non-intuitive.


For example, there was a poster that complained about ranged DPS often stealing the limit break before they could use it after "setting up for it" with skills that increase their damage output/enemies vulnerability. But limit break is raw damage based entirely on weapons average item level between all members (at least according to the wiki and what not from when I did read it). That means that:
1) If there are members with low item level weapons, limit break is very weak. Lvl1 at least may actually deal less damage than a highly geared DPS can do without it apparently.
2) It is not affected by the users damage increase, the bosses vulnerability debuffs or anything else. I don't think it can ever crit. This steams from the fact that the limit break does not actually come from the player in the first place for the system. User just defines which limit break is used and what is the target.

Then there is no information on what the limit break actually does, what are its traits and such for jobs.

Both could be solved by making the limit break icon change into what is the players current limit break for the class they use. Just like Samurai and their Iai skill. The limit break also should either deal damage based on the player that uses it, or based on the player with highest ilvl weapon. Not the average of the party.


Then there is the fact that solo there is no limit break. In dungeons there is only lvl1 limit break and lvl2 on final boss (not even ALL bosses, but only the final one). It also often does not even fill up to lvl2...or does so at a point where it is irrelevant.
Limit break should be unlocked in all party compositions, in all content, up to lvl3. Sure, it will charge slower solo than in 4-man. It will charge faster in 8-man than in 4-man. It will be something you can always depend on though, so you will get used to it. And it will manage to be a lot more relevant on the boss once it comes to fighting him.

Alternatively it should be an individual skill of every class.


The animation lock should be removed. Have the cast time, sure, but let the player move right after while the animation goes off. I mean, why does the caster need to stand in place when there is a meteor already falling on the head of the enemy?!



Basically, the limit break in Final Fantasy XIV is junk. It tried to make a single-player mechanic into a party-based mechanic and failed miserably. It does "work" and can be "used" pretty effectively, but the game does everything it can to make it obscure and unintuitive. It should get a complete overhaul and at least I believe that it should be a personal skill capped at 3 for any content. That would make it relevant for all classes, at all stages in every single piece of content in the game, if nothing else.

I mean if people would read tooltips (elitist, I know) and using a little logic (again, elitist, I know) people would atleast know how to use it properly. Looking at you mages and ranged DPS that use it when you got a perfectly able melee DPS.

There's a time and place for each type of limit break.

There have been plenty of times I've been yelled at for "misuse". The funny thing is, most times it's happened I have a perfectly good reason to use it when I did. Here's the things people need to remember sometimes.

1. LB is not just for Melees (and Bosses)

Sometimes an AoE LB works wonders on certain pulls, and even on a few bosses (like Tioman). Just because you (melees) have the most single target LB doesnt mean you are ENTITLED to it.

2. Using LB before a reset (or a mass gain)

This applies more to 8 and 24 man content. People need to realize that when your party gains hate from any "boss" encounter that gives you the 3rd bar, it will totally reset, thus wasting any you've built up. I've popped LB1 a few times in some of the old 24 mans simply because I know a boss is on the next pull. Now granted you can LB pull a boss, but thats usually never done anymore so... Also some encounters have "enemies" that give you a massive boost to LB, meaning you can pop it more than once, if timed right. Sohr Kai and Proto Ultima are good examples of this.

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

I mean if people would read tooltips (elitist, I know) and using a little logic (again, elitist, I know) people would atleast know how to use it properly. Looking at you mages and ranged DPS that use it when you got a perfectly able melee DPS.

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Hey, I'll have you know that I know my place regarding the LB as a caster! D: