Request: Please give us alternate ways to obtain PVP armour and weapons

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Originally Posted by Aviars

Just because you say "no, it's actually this" doesn't make it true. SE has made it clear that they want Feast to be a competition and top 100 rewards are meant to foster that sentiment.

Regardless though, you have been getting plenty of examples of "exclusive" items that aren't available to the regular public. And as of right now, Ultimate Coil as it stands seems to be kept level synced forever, which surprise surprise is SE changing the way they do things. I can also list the title like necromancer which only a very few people have been able to achieve, and SE doesn't seem to making moves to make it so the unworthy can achieve it.

Just accept you are wrong

Edit: You should also stop making the claim that SE should never try to innovate and change how they operate their game. You are basically like this "doing things differently is WRONG, it should NEVER change cause it's the way it's ALWAYS been..... I don't want to game to change even if it's a improvement!!!"

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And you aren't correct because you twist arguments and insist you are.

Once again you reach to an example which defeats your own argument. Ultimate can be challenged at any time, provided you have seven other likeminded people with the skill to clear. PvP mounts are time exclusives. In 5.0, The Legend title can still be acquired. Can the Hellhound? The same applies to Necromancer. In fact, the first person to obtain it did so almost a full year after PotD's release; an impossible feat if PvP rules applied.

SE changed nothing. They're desperately trying to promote PvP. One mode having timed exclusivity when no other content does isn't changing their rules. It's simply showing an inconsistency and bias. Ironically, you insinuate this exclusivity is an improvement yet what dividends has it shown? Stormblood PvP borders on life support, Feast itself encourages sitting on your rank over actively competing and has generated little interest from the overall majority. An improvement would be getting people interested in all aspects of PvP. That hasn't happened since the Garo event. You know, the event which allowed everyone to get everything at their own pace.

The fact you consider this innovation is laughable.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

And you aren't correct because you twist arguments and insist you are.

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N-no you wrong!!!! Nice sound argument there

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Once again you reach to an example which defeats your own argument. Ultimate can be challenged at any time, provided you have seven other likeminded people with the skill to clear. PvP mounts are time exclusives. In 5.0, The Legend title can still be acquired. Can the Hellhound? The same applies to Necromancer. In fact, the first person to obtain it did so almost a full year after PotD's release; an impossible feat if PvP rules applied.

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The one rule that can be removed is the time exclusivity. I have and many others have suggested that players that achieve top 100 can purchase either a the current reward OR a past reward with the top 100 voucher they receive. This removes the timed aspect of the rewards, and keeps it as hard to achieve as it was in the past. I personally want to hear you say yes or no to this suggestion. If you say no it's obvious that your whole argument about time exclusivity is a sham.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

SE changed nothing. They're desperately trying to promote PvP. One mode having timed exclusivity when no other content does isn't changing their rules. It's simply showing an inconsistency and bias. Ironically, you insinuate this exclusivity is an improvement yet what dividends has it shown? Stormblood PvP borders on life support, Feast itself encourages sitting on your rank over actively competing and has generated little interest from the overall majority.

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Ultimate is brand new content that wasn't ever seen before. Diadem when released was a brand new concept in ff14. Are you going to say SE is somehow wrong in trying to release new and different content by saying they are being inconsistent? Please. If you keep following this inconsistency argument you are basically arguing against all and any change whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by Aviars

N-no you wrong!!!! Nice sound argument there

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You mean the same argument you've been making since the last thread we tangled in? Every single post of yours has boiled down to "I'm right because!" Usually after you've completely misrepresented the person you're arguing with.

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Originally Posted by Aviars

The one rule that can be removed is the time exclusivity. I have and many others have suggested that players that achieve top 100 can purchase either a the current reward OR a past reward with the top 100 voucher they receive. This removes the timed aspect of the rewards, and keeps it as hard to achieve as it was in the past. I personally want to hear you say yes or no to this suggestion. If you say no it's obvious that your whole argument about time exclusivity is a sham.

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Is that better? Sure. It still remains inconsistent with every other piece of content and utterly fails as an incentive to motivate people into PvP. The sheer lack of interest speaks for itself. That being said, it's at least better than the current system. I'll grant you that much. Personally, I feel a Top 100 trophy or title suits PvP better as the reward itself is unique.

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Originally Posted by Aviars

Ultimate is brand new content that wasn't ever seen before. Diadem when released was a brand new concept in ff14. Are you going to say SE is somehow wrong in trying to release new and different content by saying they are being inconsistent? Please. If you keep following this inconsistency argument you are basically arguing against all and any change whatsoever.

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In what universe does Ultimate or Diadem compare to an inconsistent reward structure between PvE and PvP? You keep trying to draw a correlation that simply doesn't exist. Making Ranked Feast have a mount only 600 people can ever acquire is not "brand new" content. It's a marketing ploy in the hopes people will be incentivized to try it not unlike say, tying an elaborate emote to a $150 statue.

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Originally Posted by Awha

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Those asking for a change to the status quo are the ones pushing forward their perspective in order to initiate change. I didn't say people are wrong or invalid to want the reward, but I would argue that based on logic extrapolated from SE precedent, there's not sound reasoning for making the reward easier.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

You mean the same argument you've been making since the last thread we tangled in? Every single post of yours has boiled down to "I'm right because!" Usually after you've completely misrepresented the person you're arguing with.

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You keep saying I am twisting your argument, but you never really address it in your response. At the end of the day it's just a talking point you use to try and discredit me with no evidence. Keep doing it though, it's cute.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Is that better? Sure. It still remains inconsistent with every other piece of content and utterly fails as an incentive to motivate people into PvP. The sheer lack of interest speaks for itself. That being said, it's at least better than the current system. I'll grant you that much.

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Doesn't seem PotD gets a lot of solo runner huh, they have to make necromancer a reward for floor 50 now I guess....

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

In what universe does Ultimate or Diadem compare to an inconsistent reward structure between PvE and PvP? You keep trying to draw a correlation that simply doesn't exist. Making Ranked Feast have a mount only 600 people can ever acquire is not "brand new" content. It's a marketing ploy in the hopes people will be incentivized to try not unlike say, tying an elaborate emote to a $150 statue.

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You keep arguing over how SE is inconsistent and that it's wrong. So you are readily saying that SE should do nothing new or different in how they operate their game. Also the reward structure is a part of "The Feast" which was new content. So should the Feast have never been created because it was "new and different?" It's actually amazing that you can argue against Square Enix evolving their game. I could only imagine that if SE released world first mounts or titles for savage you would be shrieking on how SE never did such a thing before. amazing

While you have never said those with differing views are wrong others have. As I mentioned before those in favor of the status quo do have the current system as a precedent but if at the end of the day both value propositions are inherently subjective why so some feel the need to call others wrong for how the view the topic and try to belittle the request for another means. Some even go as far to say people want the same reward for nothing when the majority have said no such thing.

Aviars, since you posed a question to me that I answered, now I'd like to pose one to you.

Just wondering, my feelings on the issue aside. Why do you feel you are entitled to a reward forever when every other reward in game, save ultimate and those bundled with physical items, can be had over time?

a12s, while still difficult, is much more accessible now.
Previous holiday and many exclusive items can be had on mog station
Even the minion hellhounds, which were originally exclusive top 10 rewards, are now obtainable via other methods in pvp.

Do you think making things easier somehow invalidates your original effort?

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

Aviars, since you posed a question to me that I answered, now I'd like to pose one to you.

Just wondering, my feelings on the issue aside. Why do you feel you are entitled to a reward forever when every other reward in game, save ultimate and those bundled with physical items, can be had over time?

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It's been explained many times in this thread and by others but since you don't seem willing to put this away AFTER agreeing with me on pretty much everything I'll explain it to you in the most simplest of terms. I don't think people who don't put the same effort into getting a reward should be entitled to the reward, period, and that isn't a wrong sentiment to have. I think with the proposal of people using the top 100 voucher to potential get a past reward is good enough, there wouldn't be a time exclusive aspect to the reward, and it still makes the reward as hard to get as before. There is nothing more to say about it.

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

a12s, while still difficult, is much more accessible now.
Previous holiday and many exclusive items can be had on mog station
Even the minion hellhounds, which were originally exclusive top 10 rewards, are now obtainable via other methods in pvp.

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A12s and holiday items were never advertised as exlusive items only for top 100 players.

Also hellhound minions were changed from top 10 to readily available pretty much immediately due to whining. You know what they did do? They made a brand new item that was still exclusive to top 10 players. So I think that shows precedent to SE being committed to providing exclusive rewards that are not available to to average player. I also say to you SE has no reason to continue following what they did in the past forever, they are FREE to improve and evolve their game in any way they wish. Just because you guys like to spout the word "consistency" doesn't make it reality.

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

Do you think making things easier somehow invalidates your original effort?

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Rewards advertised as hard to get made easier to get does lower value. Fact.

In the end you already agreed with me and others with the proposal we made, it's time for you to let it go.

Can we agree when we talk about value we are talking about how much something is worth to someone? In this context am I wrong to say that value is subjective? I think this is where a lot of the confusion came about. I do not think the majority are in disagreement with you that subjective value markers can have objective changes due to changes made to them. For personally I know that I worded by position as a means that assumed me share the same value system. When I spoke of value in the social context using the Joe 1234 having the access to the same mount should not detract from the personal value, only the social value. I was wrong since what I considered social value can be a factor to determine personal value.

We have differing views on this matter, but doesn't this go to show how in this context one view is not inherently wrong or right? Sure one can be more widely more acceptable by a larger margin of people, in this case you have the precedent of placed by the company supporting exclusive rewards for certain content. I mean I get you have the status quo on your side, but does that status quo mean that any request made to make a change of the system should be met with personal attacks, or treated like a moot or frivolous endeavor. People in this very thread have attacked others for their views if we can get past that maybe then we could have a proper discussion regarding the topic. Sure nothing may come of it, but maybe something will. In the end we are making a request, said request does have a direct impact on those that have the value marker of the item once being only meant for those that have showed the, commitment, effort, and skill and will objectively devalue the item due to the objective value proposition posed by SE.

What I am trying to say is just because SE is currently on your side it does not make any request to change the current system moot, or any side that is not in agreement with you wrong. In the end the markers that we choose to determine value are subjective, but changes can have an objective impact on said choices. Thing is SE is free to change their value proposition that is why we are posing the request to SE. Be in disagreement, argue your position but can either side truly said they are objective right or wrong on this matter. As it stands a few people seem to think they are objective correct because currently SE shares the same view. That view can easily change, and if it does ever change I do hope if anyone in favor of the current system is not meant with you are wrong because that is life or you are wrong since I have SE on my side.

It is okay to be in disagreement, but a topic like this does not have an objective truth, and no request made to change the current system should be met with personal attacks from either side. I am sorry if anything I have said in the past was seen as a personal attack, I do know that I could have said some harsh things and I know that due to situation not a native speaking coupled with learning disabilities my posts can be hard to read. Sorry about that, either way I do think we can have an interesting discussion if both sides are willing to admit that one either side in not inherently right or wrong.

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Originally Posted by Aviars

I don't think people who don't put the same effort into getting a reward should be entitled to the reward, period, and that isn't a wrong sentiment to have.

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It is not a wrong sentiment to have, and if I implied otherwise then I am sorry since for the confusion. Your sentiment, but being that is your personal belief on the subject same should be true for those that want consistency or for those that want exclusive rewards to be made obtainable by everyone in the community.

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Originally Posted by Aviars

Rewards advertised as hard to get made easier to get does lower value. Fact.

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This is also true if the value marker you place on a item is tied to the current value proposition posed by SE, and if SE did happen to change their value proposition for whatever reason said reward / item would lose value that is a fact. That is why we are making the request for differing means to obtain the rewards. Since SE is within their right to change their value proposition at anytime. Does not mean you have to agree with their choice if they ever changed it to make the rewards readily available for more players no it does not and it also does not make your position wrong if change were to happen. Just as those who are not in favor with the current system do not have to be pleased and are within their right to make a request for a change to be made. Sure you can be in disagreement but does not mean that the request is wrong.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Can we agree when we talk about value we are talking about how much something is worth to someone? In this context am I wrong to say that value is subjective? I think this is where a lot of the confusion came about.

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There really isn't much more to say to you. I personally thought your conversation between Sieren made you understand but I guess I was wrong to think that. You always revert to your base talking points and act like repeating them over and over again is going to change minds. Quite a weak way to debate if you ask me. I'll try my best, yet again to make you understand, so please read carefully.

You make claims that personal value is the only value that matters and in this case, that only people like me can somehow devalue a certain item they find value in. Not only is that not the case in real life, it is just flat out wrong.

Top 100 items currently have there own materialistic value due to their rarity by sheer virtue of by only available to 100 players in each datacenter. In this instance people like you are trying to make it available to EVERYONE. You may like to say personal value is the only value that exists but it is a UNDENIABLE that you are lowering it's value in a certain way. You can't make the claim that only the person can devalue something, when it is flat out false. And you continuing to repeat that only personal value exists for everything isn't going to make it true ever. You like to say there is no objective "truth" in this debate. In this case this is the truth, hopefully you can accept it.

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Originally Posted by Aviars

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I know my English is bad, but I did state that your sentiment is not wrong, and that I was in the wrong to equate that rarity solely as a factor that influences the value in a social context, rarity can be considered an aspect that determines personal value, but that is still a choice we the owner has to make to. We made the same mistake value is subjective but we personally have viewed our own value system as the only path. I even mentioned that if SE were to change their value proposition regarding top 100 rewards you have a right to feel slighted and displeased with the choice. What I am trying to get at is why is your view the only path SE can take? That is why people have made the request for the system to be changed. SE is free to change their value proposition, maybe one day they will see that the demand for the feast rewards is high enough to warrant some changes to the system.

You say one cannot make the claim that the only the owner can judge the value of something, but that is the case since if that was not the case everyone would be in agreement at the moment. I get that the reward in question were advertised as only being for those with top 100, so if that aspect gets taken away it is an objective fact that it looses the value marker of being once for top 100. Thing is that can change at anytime, SE can come around and state they are going to mail every player all the rank rewards simply for being subbed for 90 days. My position is if that were to happen should one really view the reward they earned as any less impressive or valuable. To me personally no, but for someone yeah I can see why they would, and the end it is still a choice since if that were to happen to me I have the choice to let the changed value proposition on SE part in this case removing the top 100 value marker detract from the value or the reward I earned or ignore it. I personally would choose to ignore it, others rightfully so would not be able to do so.

Like right now those that wish to have the old PvP rewards obtainable, have choices accept the current status quo, or request a change to be made. Everything around this topic comes down to a choice. When it boils down to it you said you feel as if "people who don't put the same effort into getting a reward should be entitled to the reward, period, and that isn't a wrong sentiment to have." I feel that exclusive rewards are pointless and a waste of man hours and resources and should be made obtainable by as many people through branching paths. I think timed exclusives are fine, since in my view effort is subjective who are we say farming 200 feast matches does not equate to the same effort needed to hit top 100. Why is your position the only one that is right because to a degree that is how things work outside the video game?

I hope that makes sense, I am not saying that you are wrong, if you choose to use the top 100 marker as a means determine the personal value of something then yeah you are right any change will detract from that. Now I am not saying the collective value in a social context is not objective. Social value to a degree is objective, I mean you can choose to ignore it but that does not change the fact that if the collective views a dollar as worth 100 pennies no matter what you say or try to ignore it that dollar will not be worth 1 million pennies. On a personal level though yeah that dollar can be valued at whatever you want it to be valued at. It is an extreme example but who are we to refute how a person personally values a dollar, if they are not trying to impose that view on others why does it matter.

At the core personal value is subjective, collective value or worth of something is objective but it is still our choice to allow outside influences determine the personal value of something. I mean if someone does not care about the top 100 in pvp aren't you asking them to pretend to care about that value marker when it comes to why an item should not remain exclusive. If we have to pretend that the top 100 means something why is it wrong for us to ask you to pretend that it means something. I mean those not in favor of the current system cannot project our views on others since that is wrong, and I am guilty of doing that. Yet those that are telling us that the objectively top 100 should mean something and we should strive for it if we want the reward is not projecting that view on those that disagree? Since for some top 100 may be hold no value.

Rambled on again sorry, short version personal value is subjective, however the markers one uses to determine personal value can have an objective impact if changes are made. That is much is a 100% true, but the choice is still with the individual to allow those changes impact the personal value of the item. Each side has a view point, we can be in disagreement but end of the day neither side is right or wrong, and to a degree we are all pretending that the little things we earn in this video hold any objective value, it is all subjective.

Aviars, I agree that the top 100 should be able to choose their reward with a voucher. I think that is quite literally the only thing we agree on.

Because I'd also like either the same reward available in time, tied to a related pvp achievement as the minions were -OR-
A similar version, perhaps with different colors or effects, available with collars.

Really, I think the latter would be most acceptable to everyone, both top 100 and not.

Still, all we have to go on is past changes, so you cannot fault players for looking said changes to try and draw some kind of conclusion, since the Devs don't tell us what's being done in pvp until after it is put into place.

That being said. Mog suit? Fan fest exclusive, put into mog station later.
People didn't even want to pvp for the garo gear so a version of it got put in the gold saucer.
Chinese and Korean exclusive items? Up on mog station.
And lots of people across every region have asked for some form of pvp rewards to be made available beyond pvp.
Hell, even after something like four years, guys are finally getting their bunny suits.

At the end of the day, it's SE's call, but I'm detecting a pattern here....

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

At the end of the day, it's SE's call, but I'm detecting a pattern here....

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I do think you are right if enough people bring up interest in the PvP rewards they will make changes to the system either toss them on the mog station, make them obtainable through pvp centric achievements be feast, front lines or both, or moving forward make two version one armored for the top 100 and one bare bones for everyone to earn simply through participation.

Maybe during a future Live Letter they will tackle the topic of exclusive rewards.

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

Aviars, I agree that the top 100 should be able to choose their reward with a voucher. I think that is quite literally the only thing we agree on.

Because I'd also like either the same reward available in time, tied to a related pvp achievement as the minions were -OR-
A similar version, perhaps with different colors or effects, available with collars.

Really, I think the latter would be most acceptable to everyone, both top 100 and not.

Still, all we have to go on is past changes, so you cannot fault players for looking said changes to try and draw some kind of conclusion, since the Devs don't tell us what's being done in pvp until after it is put into place.

That being said. Mog suit? Fan fest exclusive, put into mog station later.
People didn't even want to pvp for the garo gear so a version of it got put in the gold saucer.
Chinese and Korean exclusive items? Up on mog station.
And lots of people across every region have asked for some form of pvp rewards to be made available beyond pvp.
Hell, even after something like four years, guys are finally getting their bunny suits.

At the end of the day, it's SE's call, but I'm detecting a pattern here....

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Stormfur you say you agree but you automatically begin to say you don't. So there really isn't anything more to be said, it's quite clear you want to be able to achieve the same rewards for relatively no work in comparison to top 100, so at this point I just have to accept you are overly entitled to everything you want because you don't want to put forth the same effort and skill as others.

Despite what you say, not everyone agrees with you wanting to make a top 100 reward a grinding achievement . Stop trying to say such things to create an illusion of a consensus that everyone wants everything to be free.

Also I quite enjoy how you are basically arguing for Square Enix to go back on their promises. Very strange for people to actually expect promises to be broken. I can also list items that are still exclusive such as 1.0 perks. Others have listed many more as well which proves SE does keep items exclusive despite the whiners demands. I find it rather disturbing you don't want people to keep their promises and actually prefer that to happen..... very strange

Also SE seems to not want to back down to the whiners on this topic. I sure hope they don't just to prove SE can keep a promise. Promises are expected to be kept.

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Originally Posted by Aviars

Despite what you say, not everyone agrees with you wanting to make a top 100 reward a grinding achievement . Stop trying to say such things to create an illusion of a consensus that everyone wants everything to be free.

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Clearly not everyone wants to keep the rewards gated behind top 100 in the feast. So what are we trying to get at here, that people have differing views on the topic at hand. That is true. Why is it your claims are right but anyone who disagrees with you is wrong or whinny? At the end of it all people are making a simple request if you have faith in SE to keep their so called promise then you should not be so defensive about the request that is being made because if they stick to their guns nothing will come of it.

A company is within their right to change their value proposition, that is why requests are made since change can happen, nothing is set in stone and to a company a promise is not forever. Wasn't the Moogle Attire marketed as an exclusive item that came with the purchase of a fan fest ticket, yet that ended up on the Mog Station. That is an example of SE changing their value proposition, so it is possible they will change their mind on this topic if enough people show interest in the item.

Also the 1.0 items are from a different game, while personally I would not care if the 1.0 awards were added to the current game but I do not think the are a 1:1 comparison when it comes to rewards from content in the current version of the game.

If anyone deserves to have a "promise kept", it would be those people who paid $1,000+ to go to Fan Fest only to see their exclusive reward be put in the Mog Station later.

But I truly and sincerely doubt that anyone who went there 1) did so only for the reward 2) cares that many more people now have the item.

It doesn't diminish your progress or your victory in any way if more people eventually have access to the same thing. The whole game is purposefully done this way.

I actually went back to the original announcement, and it no longer says anything about them being exclusive. I didn't have a lot of time to do this, but there you go:


https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/pr/blog/001673.html
https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/pr/blog/001954.html

Here is the post back from Season 1. They make it clear about the trophy being exclusive, not the armor set:
https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/pr/blog/001447.html

Even the armor from the last couple of seasons says "can't be obtained anywhere else [other than PVP]"
https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/pr/blog/002114.html

Not "can't be obtained in any other way" or "can't be obtained by anyone else."

Maybe they talk about it being exclusive somewhere else. Like I said, I don't have much time to look.

Also Aviars, it's okay to "agree to disagree" without calling the other person wrong. That's just what we'll have to do in this case.

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

If anyone deserves to have a "promise kept", it would be those people who paid $1,000+ to go to Fan Fest only to see their exclusive reward be put in the Mog Station later.

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The fact you are still pushing for SE to break their promises on rewards just shows the level of desperation you have for the mount. I mean it's to the point where you are actively promoting immorality/lying. Very disturbing

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

But I truly and sincerely doubt that anyone who went there 1) did so only for the reward 2) cares that many more people now have the item.

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Not only do you have no proof of that but it's irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

It doesn't diminish your progress or your victory in any way if more people eventually have access to the same thing. The whole game is purposefully done this way.

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Not true, otherwise other items currently exclusive since the beginning wouldn't still be exclusive. Stop spreading lies please.

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

I actually went back to the original announcement, and it no longer says anything about them being exclusive. I didn't have a lot of time to do this, but there you go:

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"I didn't have a lot of time, but I did have a lot of time to desperately try and cherry pick and ignore other statements in the same blog post"

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/pr/blog/001673.html
https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/pr/blog/001954.html

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First off, the context is clear that these rewards were for the seasons top ranked players. They even say in the blog post in is for RANKING players. Not some randoms that want it because they asked nicely. First example of you selectively ignoring parts of the blog post that contradict your ignorant worldview.

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

Here is the post back from Season 1. They make it clear about the trophy being exclusive, not the armor set:
https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/pr/blog/001447.html

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You know what's really funny. After they say that the trophy is for only 1 person right afterwards they that the armor is for the "top ranks" as in, exclusive for top ranks. Again you are selectively ignoring parts of the blog posts in order to spread lies. I just have no words.

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

Even the armor from the last couple of seasons says "can't be obtained anywhere else [other than PVP]"
https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/pr/blog/002114.html

Not "can't be obtained in any other way" or "can't be obtained by anyone else."

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You are so eye wateringly disingenuous that it's just amazing how you can say this with a straight face. You know what they say right before that? That it's a reward for the top 100. And right after that they say it can't be obtained anywhere else. Obviously saying you can't obtain it anywhere else other than placing top 100. You are grasping straws so hard right now it is just amazing how you can just straight up nitpick comments, out of context, from blogs to try and further your agenda.

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

Maybe they talk about it being exclusive somewhere else. Like I said, I don't have much time to look.

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In the blog posts you linked they do talk about it, you just willingly ignored it.

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

Also Aviars, it's okay to "agree to disagree" without calling the other person wrong. That's just what we'll have to do in this case.

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At this point with this debate on promises there is no "agree or disagree". You think promises shouldn't be kept in in situations regarding rewards in this game, that is wrong. And then you try to say there was no promise made despite your own evidence clearly stating otherwise because you OBVIOUSLY cherry picked comments out of context in the most blatant way possible. When you have to outwardly make up lies man you need to take a look at yourself for a moment and ask yourself if what you are doing is just straight up immoral.

I thought the subject I discussed was closed in agreement and I could stop wasting my time here, but apparently not.

First off, stop mentioning subjective value is a choice. It can be a subconscious decision based on upbringing, life values, and living situation so no it's not necessarily a choice. You might as well be arguing that being gay is a choice. And even if valuations were a choice, saying what people "should" or "could" be choosing is 1) a waste of time because hypotheticals are just that and 2) just your opinion as another hypothetical choice so this sort of reasoning is just recursive and again a waste of time.

It's just a long winded way of saying "we all have different opinions that we are allowed to feel" which we already agreed to several times; at this point, using this argument is either trying to invalidate an opinion with an opinion or wasting more time. The fact you keep bringing it up means without question you are just wasting my time intentional or not, and the fact you use this argument in debate with a passage of Ava's opinion means with pretty reasonable evidence that you are trying to invalidate an opinion with an opinion. This is not only stupid but also insulting, because using only this reasoning implies you think your opinion matters enough to counter his opinion without any follow up reasoning. At least when Ava is condescending he mentions why.

If you're not trying to invalidate his argument, then you are wasting my time to a third degree, first as previously stated for arguing with a point that boils down to "we have different opinions", two for using an argument already hashed into the ground, and three for saying words that argue no point and will get nowhere.

Yes, SE at any time can choose to change their values to favor different opinions. But even if they do change their values, that doesn't change the fact that the current reward holders are losing value from it; maybe SE doesn't care or has a bigger priority to gain, but that doesn't just write off our loss as nonexistent.

But since we can't know what SE wants, we are really debating 2 things:

1) What are the objective changes that result from SE changing the reward structure? This is the core of the value lost from exclusivity vs value gained by those who have access to the armor argument.

2) What decision best aligns with SE's values? This involves extrapolation of values based on precedent and arguing how a decision would best fit SE's perceived or beneficial values.

Sure, no matter how thoroughly we debate these points, we won't invalidate another's argument. But through these points, we can show that one side is more reasonable than another. So no matter how much one believes or wants something, their opinion is shown to be less logical.

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Originally Posted by Mantrus

Snip . . .

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I am not tying to invalidate anyone argument, that is what he is trying to do. I am simply pointing out that this debate will go no where since neither side can claim that they are objective correct, and cannot prove that having exclusive is for the benefit of the game mode itself. I have stated countless times Ava is within their right to feel how they do and request that no change be made to the system, just as those who are in disagreement with how the system are free to make requests in hopes of changing the system. It keeps getting brought up since Ava feels as if their view is the only right path, and is any request to make a change to the system because currently SE seems to be in favor of the current system is moot and frivolous. As I said before in the context of in-game rewards each side has a view point, we can be in disagreement but end of the day neither side is right or wrong, and to a degree we are all pretending that the little things we earn in this video hold any objective value, it is all subjective.

I was trying to show how Ava is trying to invalidate our opinions with opinions, why are you not getting on their case about invalidating the opinions of others with their own opinions. I do think they are they one that likes to make the claim that others are objectively wrong because they do not follow the same set of values as him. I also did mention that yes if a change were to happen current holders would lose value, but does that point alone make it so we are unable to make a request for a change to be made because it goes against the current status quo? Neither side has enough information to make a claim on behalf of SE, from my perspective they tie rewards to increase participation, if that is the case maybe they should make different tiers of rewards one for those that hit top 100 and one for everyone else. Same base concept behind mount, but the top 100 version can be different in some shape or form. I would like to discus other ideas, but how can we do so when people like Ava come out stating that anyone who disagrees with them is wrong, and uses the status quo as a reason to keep things the same since any change would detract from the perceived value on the rewards and accomplishment.

As I mentioned before yes those in favor of the current system can use SE past behavior as precedent to defend their position, but that precedent itself does not inherently undermine or make our request moot in this context since we also have precedent showing that if enough people desire something SE sometimes changes their mind. So why shoot down our request, not saying to you should lay down and accept the change, but what gives anyone the right to make the claim that our position is wrong, or in storm's case claim he is immoral because SE has shown how they change their minds. A promise from a company is never set in stone, and can always change. That change is what those that wish for the reward system to change are banking on.

Using SE's current set of values yes our request is less logical but, SE has and can change those values so while the request may seem less reasonable in the current context, who is to say that they will not change their mind if enough people show a desire for a change. In the end we are in agreement that SE can change their values so why should we sit down a accept the current system without even making a request for a change to happen simply because following the current set of values shown by SE our request is not reasonable.

Like any better mmorpg with a pvp mode has exclusive rewards for top pvp players, why is that concept so hard to understand? It is motivation to try your best every time, to get the achievement you desire.
If the achievement wouldn't be 'great' way less people will attempt to get it. "Alternative ways" just means easier ways, easier to grind. I don't want to see bots with these mounts.

I am not SE, and do not have access to the data that they have but do we have proof that less people would participate in feast? Or maybe if they tie the alternative method to the feast and only feast more people will take in the feast.

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Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

If the achievement wouldn't be 'great' way less people will attempt to get it. "Alternative ways" just means easier ways, easier to grind. I don't want to see bots with these mounts.

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I'd rather see bots than your face again. Bots don't afk, ragequit, start doing push-ups when there's one minute left or ignore mark spam in the middle of a game. Gating a reward behind people like you is the worst thing SE can do to promote this PVP. You are ultimately bound to stay as a marginal community because no new sane player won't be dissuaded from your terrible behaviours and lame ragequitting.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

I'd rather see bots than your face again. Bots don't afk, ragequit, start doing push-ups when there's one minute left or ignore mark spam in the middle of a game.

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We have to get personal now for the sake of arguments? xD
Ive done several hundreds of matches now in the "new" feast and you know what never happenend? 3 kills at once, but that is what you need in order to turn matches sometimes. So tell me how a team that didn't manage to get 1 kill in 5min and 30s will get 3 kills in the last 30s when the enemy team still has a tank lb? You have a higher chance that all players dc at once instead of getting 3 kills.I don't use emotes usually unless somebody has a dc and then players wait for them to come back. Like every time I mark somebody once its usually to warn them before incoming burst, like tanks that ignore that they have medal stacks and don't use their defensive skills while about to get bursted. Often you hear me using the Fall back comment several times in the same moment you get a "1" mark. It's a wake up call...It is effective to stop tunnel vision. But if you want to be the guy who ignores your healer and runs behind a wall or pillar during that burst, well you just lost the match all by yourself. I don't carry players who just want to tunnel vision instead of trying to get awareness of what is actually happening and who then blame everyone else for the lose. That is a lose the team deserved then.

You have some nerve in coming here and even replying, if you had any sort of decency you'd be hiding under a rock. Most matches I've come across you, regardless I was with or against you, if things didn't look well for your team you'd just outright afk and stop playing. It doesn't take a "this is a 100% impossible match to win" situation for you to start flooding the chat, spamming ignore marks or doing push-ups. I've even seen you leave matches (and not coming back) before your team gets to the arena depending on who you were matched up with.

If SE's idea to incentivize PVP is force ranked and flamers down people's throats while turning normal mode into a graveyard they should probably think again. Most people won't be bothered to deal with the amount of garbage people like the above poster make you go through when trying to climb.

Maybe get a higher rating so you are actually in my matches more often. I can't even remember you at all. I turn off my battle stance quite often in a match during downtimes like when just somebody died, which might look like I'm doing nothing, it is a habit. I also play smart and don't try to get another kill if you are already leading the last 10s, just kite and win if you die here its game over. If you are an inexperienced player all this might look like I'm afk and throwing. So ye, get your facts right lol. Maybe start playing healer yourself to get an idea how it is to deal with players that have no sense how a match develops, with players that like to line of sight often you will run out of MP very fast. It is no use to bring yourself in a bad position if you can't heal anyway.
I play diamond matches I expect my teammates not to do unranked first timer mistakes. This PvP mode is super casual friendly already, still some players are unable to press the 9 buttons they have. A paladin who never stuns, heals,uses cover or his holy spirit. A melee who limit breaks into safeguard,tank limit break,bole which buffs are both running still 5-7s while being disabled by an ast, after not getting a kill in culling 5 for a minute. Those are all scenarios where you wonder why are you even trying to keep them alive, if they don't have any coordination whatsoever. It is a bad sign if the only person in your group actually using the quickchat is your healer or your tank. I'm actually trying each match to win, but if there is no communication and just mindless use of your abilities even the greatest player cant carry you.

Since Aviars took the time to so lovingly pick out and respond to my comments, I've taken the time to do the same.

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Originally Posted by Aviars

The fact you are still pushing for SE to break their promises on rewards just shows the level of desperation you have for the mount. I mean it's to the point where you are actively promoting immorality/lying. Very disturbing

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Now, if they want to "keep" their promise, then they should do so with every other thing that was promised to be exclusive or time-limited. But they don't, do they? Because they are a company, this is their product, and they are within their rights to change the rules -- or not -- however they see fit.

Maybe they'll offer the Hellhounds or the Scientist's chair to the rest of us come next patch or five patches from now. Maybe they never will. That doesn't stop anyone from asking for it, as you've no doubt seen on both the NA General Discussion forums. I'll even tell you that it's not just NA players asking for them to open rewards up to a larger swath of the playerbase. It's players on every board, in every language.

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Originally Posted by Aviars

Not only do you have no proof of that but it's irrelevant.

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I don't know about you, but I have never seen anyone lose their shit over people walking around in moogle costumes. Never once have I seen anyone come to the forum and bemoan how that costume was THEIR exclusive reward for forking over $1,000+ to go to Fan Fest in 2014 and nobody else should have it. Are there people who went to FanFest who are a little irritated that the costume that was their exclusive reward got thrown in the Mog Station three years later? Maybe...but you know, I just don't see the outrage.

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Originally Posted by Aviars

Not true, otherwise other items currently exclusive since the beginning wouldn't still be exclusive. Stop spreading lies please.

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If you're referring to the 1.0 stuff, that was an entirely different game. What other things are you referring to? There was the whole Yo-Kai thing, which they brought out a second time for anyone who missed it the first go around.

Then, as best as I can remember, there were the maid/butler outfits available "exclusively" to people who bought magazines and soft drinks in EU, but they (rightfully) threw such a fit over how insane it was to get this stuff, that SE put the items in the Mog Station later.

If they brought out the mounts or any other Feast prizes again, you can absolutely bet I'd try for them again. But even if I did win them, and SE decided later to put them in the mog station or even in the gold saucer for all I care, would I be furious about it?

Absolutely not.

Like I said before, I have some of the rarest items in the game - the Noble Barding and the Gaelicat Hat. And you know what I did to get them? I sketched a furnishing, and it won. I spent WAY more time on my first entry, showing it from every angle and how it would work, than I did my second one -- yet the one that I spent the least amount of time on ended up winning. I tell you this to show that, at the end of the day, you could pour effort into something and still not make it, or you could scrap together something and win. That doesn't invalidate the work you put into it. My intricate drawing was better formed, more detailed and distinctive, yet SE saw to it that the clunky sketch won out.

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Originally Posted by Aviars

At this point with this debate on promises there is no "agree or disagree". You think promises shouldn't be kept in in situations regarding rewards in this game, that is wrong.

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I think they should keep their promises, but if they do, apply it to everything and everyone, and not just pick and choose what promises get "kept" or not. If exclusives were kept exclusive, and time-limited items kept limited, we'd never have Moogle costumes in the mog station, nor Moogle caps, nor maid outfits, nor the items from China/Korea, nor holiday or event items.

They're not breaking promises because I tell them to, they're making more previously unattainable things more attainable for more players over time. It's in their best interest to keep their player-base happy. If they truly cared about exclusivity and the "clout" that exclusive rewards bring, they wouldn't have sprung to action the very minute people were upset about minions being Feast-only and made them available beyond the Top 10 winners.

Instead, you guys got earrings. Wow. Everybody zoom in to the top 100 winners' ears so we can all gape in awe!

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Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

Like any better mmorpg with a pvp mode has exclusive rewards for top pvp players, why is that concept so hard to understand? It is motivation to try your best every time, to get the achievement you desire.
If the achievement wouldn't be 'great' way less people will attempt to get it. "Alternative ways" just means easier ways, easier to grind. I don't want to see bots with these mounts.

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Which would be fine if the mode wasn't so broken. I play it anyway because I enjoy it, but it's on life support and hanging by a thread. If they actually put some time and attention into fixing the core issues, maybe it wouldn't be so bad...but I'm not holding my breath. We all had immense hopes for Eureka and look what happened there.


I don't want to see bots with hard-to-get mounts wither, so maybe release an alternative one and tie it to kills or assists in Feast, since bots can't Feast. Or tie that alternate to Wolf Collars as I've suggested from the start. Want a mount? That will be 15 Wolf Collars. That's 2 seasons of Diamond, all the way down to 5 seasons of Bronze. The better you are, the sooner you'll get yours.

It's only a suggestion though. For all I know, they'll put the mounts in the Gold Saucer like they did GARO stuff, for 2mil MGP. Who knows.

If you want the top 100 rewards simply work for it, It's not even hard at all you can literally spam it and get carried at this rate.

Train yourself as you play, learn, take advice and you will earn it. Stop trying to be lazy and not participate and get the rewards which people worked hard for.

We have wolf collars now that reward you for playing and eventually you can buy the Hellhound weapons, you dont even have to be remotely good and you can still get them, this shouldn't apply to the other rewards ever as you hardly have to work for it and completely disregards the players time investment and skill needed to reach the top ranks.
This is competitive and should stay that way, so earn it... Like I said It's not hard if you're willing to just get up and learn it, people wouldn't even be making these threads if they wasn't lazy af and entitled.

Stormfur I think it is funny that you pretty much ignore how you basically LIED in your previous post the ENTIRE time and basically refer back to anwa's talking points to try and deflect from the fact that you basically LIED the entire time. LOL

There really isn't anything to say to someone who is willing to lie to such a extent in their desperation of a mount. You already showed that you will make everything up without a thought.

I think the fact you would try and act like the bigger man by responding back to me after lying and not even responding to the fact that you lied shows how desperate you are to look right, no matter the cost to your credibility. You literally bet that people won't read the thread.

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

Like I said before, I have some of the rarest items in the game - the Noble Barding and the Gaelicat Hat. And you know what I did to get them? I sketched a furnishing, and it won. I spent WAY more time on my first entry, showing it from every angle and how it would work, than I did my second one -- yet the one that I spent the least amount of time on ended up winning. I tell you this to show that, at the end of the day, you could pour effort into something and still not make it, or you could scrap together something and win. That doesn't invalidate the work you put into it. My intricate drawing was better formed, more detailed and distinctive, yet SE saw to it that the clunky sketch won out.

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Seems like someone thinks they are better than they actually think they are. Literally Dunning-Kruger effect right here. Literally "I didn't win but I know I was better than everyone else." You apply that sentiment towards Feast and contests you lost to rationalize your own defeat, how it's not your fault you lost.

Also Stormfur, I'll recap on how you lied again so hopefully you don't just ignore it and act like you were honestly responding to my post when you weren't, here ya go:

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

I actually went back to the original announcement, and it no longer says anything about them being exclusive. I didn't have a lot of time to do this, but there you go:

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/pr/blog/001673.html
https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/pr/blog/001954.html

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First off, the context is clear that these rewards were for the seasons top ranked players. They even say in the blog post in is for RANKING players. Not some randoms that want it because they asked nicely. First example of you selectively ignoring parts of the blog post that contradict your ignorant worldview.

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

Here is the post back from Season 1. They make it clear about the trophy being exclusive, not the armor set:
https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/pr/blog/001447.html

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You know what's really funny. After they say that the trophy is for only 1 person right afterwards they that the armor is for the "top ranks" as in, exclusive for top ranks. Again you are selectively ignoring parts of the blog posts in order to spread lies. I just have no words.

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

Even the armor from the last couple of seasons says "can't be obtained anywhere else [other than PVP]"
https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/pr/blog/002114.html

Not "can't be obtained in any other way" or "can't be obtained by anyone else."

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You are so eye wateringly disingenuous that it's just amazing how you can say this with a straight face. You know what they say right before that? That it's a reward for the top 100. And right after that they say it can't be obtained anywhere else. Obviously saying you can't obtain it anywhere else other than placing top 100. You are grasping straws so hard right now it is just amazing how you can just straight up nitpick comments, out of context, from blogs to try and further your agenda.

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

Maybe they talk about it being exclusive somewhere else. Like I said, I don't have much time to look.

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In the blog posts you linked they do talk about it, you just willingly ignored it.

The reason you don't see me in matches is not because I'm that low but because I stopped playing. Try figuring out why.

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Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

I play diamond matches I expect my teammates not to do unranked first timer mistakes.

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More like you want to win every game and get mad if you don't. I've seen where this kind of reasoning leads to. All your harassment and ragequitting is suddenly justified because you think your team is dragging you down. There's no such thing as "this unranked mistake I won't tolerate!", you aren't fooling anyone here, your attitude is obnoxious the very moment you realize you are losing.

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Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

A paladin who never stuns, heals,uses cover or his holy spirit. A melee who limit breaks into safeguard,tank limit break,bole which buffs are both running still 5-7s while being disabled by an ast

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Keep pretending it takes that kind of stuff for you to stop trying or harassing.

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Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

after not getting a kill in culling 5 for a minute

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If that's the case the enemy team isn't doing something very well either aren't they?

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Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

there is no communication and just mindless use of your abilities even the greatest player cant carry you.

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Spamming "Thank you" or ignore spamming someone right after the enemy team gets a kill is not communication.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

.

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You don't even provide any real counter argument for his claims.

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Originally Posted by randoom

You don't even provide any real counter argument for his claims.

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Care to elaborate a bit more?

He said "A paladin who never stuns, heals,uses cover or his holy spirit. A melee who limit breaks into safeguard,tank limit break,bole which buffs are both running still 5-7s while being disabled by an ast"
You completely ignored these problems and called it harassment.

You also quoted him saying "after not getting a kill in culling 5 for a minute", yet you completely ignored that part that he said the other team are in 2-3 kill lead.

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Originally Posted by Kaiche

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Lazy and entitled when all we are asking for is a different means to obtaining the mounts. Some of even made the suggestion allow players to buy the mounts using wolf collars that they can earn over time. If it is okay for weapons, why is it not okay for mounts? Or why does that make us entitled or lazy if we wish to be able to earn the mounts over time like we can the weapons? All we want is a different means of obtaining the mounts just like the weapons. Why is everyone so defensive about that.

Also who is it say grinding out matches is not earning it?

If not laziness and entitlement what is it? why can't you, like everyone else who has these rewards work towards getting top 100 and obtaining these rewards? You wouldn't even need to complain if you just tried to get it yourself instead of trying to find easier ways to obtain an exclusive item and making excuses.

The whole point is the competitive aspect: reaching the top of the chain through skill, Players work hard throughout the season(s) to get the reward... Do you know how easy it is to get to gold? literally anyone can by just spamming, even bots reach there peak there sometimes... It's beyond easy, why should that be rewarded through grind to get the top 100 Exclusive reward? What competition does that realistically set?

In fact getting to top 100 IS the grind, what you're suggesting is nothing compared to that.

Also Wolf collars + The Hellhound weapons are literally the wolf asseccories that were rewarded for participation, nothing has changed.

casuals out lmao

Laziness and entitlement that is your view, which is fine. In my view asking for different options is just that asking for different options it not inherently lazy or or entitled. I am sure some do feel they are entitled to the reward, or it should be easier. That is their position I will not, but their view does not detract from those that are willing to grind out over the course of an extended amount of time to receive rewards. Also, I am trying, and nor do I want the rewards to be easy on my behalf I will do what I always to in other games climb my up for a first couple of seasons then overtime get better. If I do not get better so be it.

Nevertheless, in my view as a player in other games that has worked their way for world first kills, ranked pvp rewards, top three assassin title in star wars. End of the day these items have objective value outside of the game itself and the achievements that we earn in this game hold very little worth if any to those to most in our every day living. In the end we are all pretending our achievements in this game have any inherent value. That is where my opinion / suggestion stems from everything we do in this game boils down to a choice, as it is a choice people do have the right to make a request for change to be happen. Sure change may not happen, but only way to find out is by making the request.

People can be in disagreement, but what reason do people have to be defensive about the request being made. As people have said more or less these pleas for different options will result in no change being made, but does not hurt those that wish for change to at the very least try instead of laying down and accepting the status quo for what it is. Why must those that wish for a different means accept it without trying to see if it would be possible to change. When the made a change to feast chat did people lay down an accept it for what it is, or did they make threads trying to see if a change can be made. As mentioned if nothing results in this I am sure many will move on and adapt.

Sorry for some reason not letting me edit my above post, and the previous that post that was here was a mess. My apologizes.

Someone mentioned the whole point is the competitive aspect how does having the reward made more available take away from the competitive aspect? Wouldn't it be more of the same, grind out enough matches to get out of the lower ranks for more competitive ones?

Those that seek competition will always strive for it and overtime naturally will be found at the higher ranks. Some take part simply for the rewards, but I would venture to guess on average most that strive or are able to reach top 100 do so because they enjoy the competitive aspect which means they will climb high enough to each the top. Even if one is to say that without a reward less people will play, who is to say that if the rewards were made available more people would not jump in to take the spot of those that left?

I just recently started taking part in the feast a couple of weeks ago, currently sitting at silver near promotions. I know I am not going to finish with a high rank this season or maybe even next season that is fine. I am not doing this for the reward I am doing it because I enjoy arena based PvP, and I am not grinding for any reward I am trying to climb the ranks because I want to take part in competitive matches. I am trying to understand the position of others, but I do not think I will ever understand it since for the life of me the only reason I can see for having exclusive rewards is for the bragging rights that come with having them. Just as I am sure others will never understand my view and will think I am just being leech that wants everything handed to them. I wish I could see the side others have posed, I have tried to understand it but end of the day I simply cannot get past my view how value is subjective. Sure others aspects can influence it, but that does not mean we have to act on it. As someone mentioned what I am arguing is akin to arguing being gay is a choice, and personal I do not know if who or what ones finds attractive is a choice or not. That is a can of worms not necessary for this thread.

Though as they mentioned end of the day both sides have to resort to hypothetical explains, and I did get heated at times because some were making objective claims that one side is right and the other is wrong. Others have argued that precedent dictates what reasonable action follows SE agenda. Which I then argued is not set in stone, and has changed. I wish it were possible to have a reasonable discussion on this topic, but I do not think that is possible since I do not think either side is willing to accept different view points. I have tried, and I do understand that value one attributes to something can be influenced by many factors, and my position that the only person that can detract the value of an item is the owner more or less puts us in a situation where the side with the reward has to pretend that said reward means anything to anyone expect themselves or those that understood what went into getting said reward. Though from my perspective that is what we do with everything in a video game, in my eyes nothing we do in a video game has any inherent value. Also seems like a waste of man hours on SE part to put effort into designing something only a fraction of people will ever obtain or even see, since it is not like we can use our mounts in city states anyways, so the active viewer pool of said mounts is fairly limited.

When all is said and done I simply do not see how earning a reward over a certain length of time show any less effort then reaching top 100. Sure getting top 100 does show more skill, and that skill rewards them with the mount sooner.