The time has come to get rid of enrage timers

One fight doesn't constitute getting rid of enrage though. Admittedly I haven't gotten around to reading the full thread yet. I'll get to that in a bit then reply in more detail... That was just my initial response.

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Originally Posted by Selova

They are never going to do this, ever. Do you have any idea how broken fights would be without enrage timers/DPS checks? Do you have any idea what the comps would even look like when there is zero risk to failing a fight and all you have to do is run out the clock? I highly doubt FFXIV is going to try to "break the mold" when it comes to changing how boss fights work, considering every boss in MMO's are all tuned and designed around their enrage timers.

Their seems to be this on-going trend lately with all these "armchair developers" requesting drastic changes like this while having zero understanding or experience how fights are designed for endgame. Why don't we leave it to the professionals instead of making such ridiculous suggestions, especially when you have no idea what you are even talking about. Thanks.

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These same "professionals" are the same people who created both versions of Diadem; the same people responsible for the god-awful Glamour system we've had for years; the same people responsible for the upcoming terrible "fix" to the MSQ roulette.

Gamers may not have the same amount of expertise, but those of us who spend lots of time in MMOs are essentially highly-qualified third-party QA testers. Our feedback has significant value.

Also, bosses in MMOs haven't always been built around Enrage timers. Look at FFXI for an example; very little content involved any sort of mechanic of this sort - and it allowed for tremendously creative strategies that involved multiple off-duty parties / alliances to slowly chip away at a tough creature. It didn't magically break the game. This isn't some out-of-left-field suggestion, and it's ignorant of you to suggest as much.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

I disagree on the grounds that players should not be allowed to basically outlast the trial. Healers have the tools to basically ensure that you're guaranteed to win without the enrage. Perhaps mini Dps and healer checks, if we do go that route. I like that with the old primals, you have to do mechanics or it will be a wipe.

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May I ask why? Why not allow for 6x Healer / 2x Tank parties if they work, for pre-made groups? They'd take forever to bring a boss down; nobody would opt for them as a first choice unless they simply couldn't get a win with a faster setup.

Mechanics, incidentally, would still need to be followed. Most of the mechanics in harder content will wipe the group - regardless of composition - if they're ignored or whiffed on very badly.

=> When you realize it might really be the time to stop reading post on official forum.

I will say this though, before I read through the thread in full and respond to other posters, I really feel that the skill level of many players need to rise up before these types of threads are made. When we start seeing fewer players messing up on easier fights like Hashmal on a weekly basis, then this would have more validity

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

May I ask why? Why not allow for 6x Healer / 2x Tank parties if they work, for pre-made groups?

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Because for the sake of fairness, you would then also have to allow for 6x DPS / 2x Tank parties to work. And for 6x Healer / 2x DPS parties. And all other similar compositions. If you are forcing healers or tanks into the group composition by mechanics other roles cannot deal with, it is only fair you also do the same with DPS. Conversely, if you were to remove mechanics that require DPS, you should also remove mechanics that require tanks/healers. Or, give DPS the tools to deal with them in the same way healers/tanks can deal with DPS mechanics.

Yes, let's remove the one responsibility DPS actually have.

https://78.media.tumblr.com/e554be97...sk74o1_250.gif

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

Perhaps mini Dps and healer checks, if we do go that route. I like that with the old primals, you have to do mechanics or it will be a wipe.

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Here’s the thing though; there was debate and criticisms back during 2.X with boss design and mechanics centred around killing you in a single hit should you fail the mechanic i.e. Melusine’s pre-nerf Petrify and Renauds, and Rafflesia’s Blighted Bouquet and Bees. These mechanics were the prominent mechanics in their respective encounters which ramped up the difficulty for many players. While these one-shot mechanics still exists in many of the recent encounters, it has been toned down to be much more forgiving but difficult to tackle e.g. healer checks where the boss drops the party’s HP to low amounts followed by an immediately tank buster on the low HP tank. I quite like the current encounter design, but I’d thought I’d point out an old discussion on the matter.

Edit: Quickly going to put it out there that I agree with you; enrage timers need to stay. Removing it would be a horrible decision.

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

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You are basing this on the assumption that the devs that were responsible for Diadem are the same ones in charge of boss tuning and mechanics, which is almost never the case.


While there are intelligent people out there that provide great feedback, they are in the minority. Also, making such a stupid suggestion like removing enrage timers is not "great feedback" sorry.
I also find it hilarious that you are drawing comparisons from a 10+ year old MMO where the only challenging aspect of encounters was find the amount of people to sit there for hours on end whittling away on bosses that were about as complex as a one block rubix cube.


We aren't living in the early 2000s anymore, mmos develop over-time and change. If you seriously think that removing enrage timers is any kind of solution and that it won't break the current endgame, you are the one that's ignorant. End of story.

Full disclosure; I didn't read through the entire thread. Apologies if this has been brought up.

We are mostly talking about the results of a couple of different issues here. Enrage timers and DPS checks are a result of the game design, not a design choice themselves. To elaborate further, due to the low required healing, and the very passive mitigation, there is not a lot for healers and tanks to do outside of DPS for large portions of any given fight.

The passive/low healing requirements and passive mitigation are choices that were made back when ARR was in the works, possibly sooner, as they have been with us since day one, while the various boss mechanics have not. Because of this design, there has to be some type of check to ensure that high-end content isn't won through simple attrition.

Before anyone says, "but they could add more mechanics that require teamwork to overcome and increase the chance of a wipe", I'd like to point out that this is simply attrition from the other side. Extend the length of the fight, add more mechanics, increase probability that the attrition war is lost by players. This simply makes fights longer, and increases player fatigue. In order to remove DPS checks and enrages, there has to be a complete shift away from passive survival towards active survival, but technical limitations like roadblock that path as it stands (look at any buffs delay from when you cast it to when it actually works).

The other issue is that there is an expectation by a subset of the population that there will be challenging content. Savage/Ultimate, from what I have seen, read, and understand, is not intended for everyone to clear. If it were, it would be tied to the MSQ like the trials used to be, and no one liked that. So you have to make a decision - make the content easier and open it up to the entire playerbase and add NEW content for the challenge-seekers, or leave it as it is. If we continue down the path of bringing down content to make it accessible while adding new content at a higher difficult level, we just end up kicking the can down the road and have 5 or 6 different difficulty levels without fixing anything. As a playerbase, we just need to accept that not all content is for every player, and so do the designers.

Apologies for the length.

The enrage timers in this game are already very lax, you dont need to be a top player to clear them, you just need to just be average at best at your class and execute the mechanics.

And removing them will do nothing, in fact, it will dumb down the raids and make them appeal to the lowest common denominator which is not what raiding is about in the first place.

No thanks.

I like that some content takes skill and effort at your role to beat instead of being able to just have people fail and die and just raise over and over till a zombie clear.

I find Enrage immersion breaking. I mean if they can suddenly kick our ass after 10 minutes has passed, then do it at the beginning of the fight. One comes to mind is O/V3S, where did you pull that power from Halicarnassus?

I do get the whole concept and dont mind the dps checks etc, but I still find it annoying.

Might aswell just make bosses keel over and drop loot when you zone in if you remove the enrage timers... If you can't beat the timers, that just simply means that either you, or someone else in your group is not carrying their weight, thats it.

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Originally Posted by Miste

No thanks.

I like that some content takes skill and effort at your role to beat instead of being able to just have people fail and die and just raise over and over till a zombie clear.

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You can't raise over and over until dead because mages will run out of mp eventually. I'd also argue that people overcoming some adversity and pulling out a win when things go south takes more skill than simply memorizing a static rotation of mechanics. I also like the idea of having different viable strats. My issue is less with the enrage timers and more with the auto wipe. People have mentioned soft enrages which I would prefer.

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Originally Posted by Brill_

You can't raise over and over until dead because mages will run out of mp eventually. I'd also argue that people overcoming some adversity and pulling out a win when things go south takes more skill than simply memorizing a static rotation of mechanics. I also like the idea of having different viable strats. My issue is less with the enrage timers and more with the auto wipe. People have mentioned soft enrages which I would prefer.

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If necessary, healers can fall back to just healing to get MP for more raises. Toss in a Bard and a Red Mage, and you can keep it going all day. I mean, on a single Lakshmi normal recently I had to res 12 people (including my co healer seven times) in one pull. We still cleared, and my WHM was still not out of MP.

That's the future if there's no kind of enrage mechanic. MP is a joke right now.

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Originally Posted by Brill_

You can't raise over and over until dead because mages will run out of mp eventually. I'd also argue that people overcoming some adversity and pulling out a win when things go south takes more skill than simply memorizing a static rotation of mechanics. I also like the idea of having different viable strats. My issue is less with the enrage timers and more with the auto wipe. People have mentioned soft enrages which I would prefer.

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Thin Air, Lucid Dreaming, Assize and Mana Shift would like to have a word with you.

Zombie mode isn’t a method everyone can abuse since it will require a lot of time compared to burning down the boss since fatigue, nature’s call, real life obligations will be factored in the battle of attrition. So the faster you can complete the battle the less chance of causing a wipe due to human factors.

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Originally Posted by Darrcyphfeid

You're coming at it from the wrong angle. I'm not saying you just walk up to the closest newbie and flog them with a carp. That would be hilarious, briefly, but ultimately solves nothing. It's a gradual process.

You don't, for example, take Cutter's Cry Chimera and give him all of the mechanics from A Relic Reborn. Rather, you keep him the same mechanically while significantly increasing his outgoing auto-attack damage. You make it so that I cannot, regardless of my skill or gear, survive against him for long without my healer. On any tank job. You also add hard enrages on Titan HM and Ravana HM, in addition to their already existing DPS checks (which should be bumped up a bit more so that two competent DPS out of four total can't carry), so that people aren't sitting there for 10+ minutes waiting for another chance to do the fight and are actively encouraged to participate.

Would the game lose players? Maybe. Would people whine and rage quit more often? For a time. But let's be real here, if you willfully refuse to push your buttons and do even 60~65% of your job's full potential at any given level you're not really playing the game anyway. And that's why things like Final Steps of Faith and Royal Managerie were kind of awful experiences in DR Trials at first anyway; the game didn't provide stepping stones of difficulty to get people into shape and instead just threw them to the wolves after letting them be carried for ages (by nerfing anything with fangs previous into the ground)

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Here's the thing a lot of people who push for harder content for everyone, or push's for EX/Savage mechanics be put into normal/casual content, seem to miss - most people who play this game (and most other MMO's for that matter) are casual players who don't have the time or inclination to 'git gud' or 'learn to be better'. These people have 30-90 minutes a day/2-days/week to play and just want to log in and play without having to stress, worry about hard-to-play mechanics or such. These are people that will leave a game if their casual content becomes too hard for them to casually beat, they won't go to forums, reddit, guides, etc to try and learn how to play better, they won't seek FC's / LS's / etc to try and improve... they will just up and quit the game.

I have seen what happens when an MMO game company listens to people calling for all content, including the main/casual story content to be made harder - the game had a population exodus. Classic example is Guild Wars 2 - many people claimed the base game was way, way too easy and cried and cried for the whole game to be made harder. ANet listened to the forum posters crying for everything to be made harder and made their expansion Heart of Thorns way, way harder - virtually everything was group focused, monsters were closer and had lots of CC... basically unless you travelled in a group / zerg you were not going to be able to get through the games base story, get hero points to unlock skills and classes, etc - if you were a casual player you were doomed. After the launch of the game the forums were filled with complaints about how hard the expansion was, how casual player unfriendly... and after a week or 2 the forums filled with threads complaining about how there was no-one on the maps, that people were struggling to complete events as no-one was playing the game anymore.

ANet suffered a 67% drop in revenue after the launch of HoT expansion. All because they made the casual / story content harder and more like what those wanting hard content wanted. After a while they came out and said this was a mistake, and that they shouldn't have made the casual / story / easy-to-access-parts as hard as they did and nerfed these parts quite a lot - so much so that most of the expansions zones, maps, hero points, etc could be done by a casual player.

Am I saying all content in FFXIV should be made casual? NO! There does still need to be harder-than-normal content for players who like and want to play content. Take the current-content Extreme & Savage fight, and tinker with their mechanics and such as needed to make the fight's harder/easier as required - ie if ppl are clearing the 'meant to be hard' stuff too quickler/easily then make it harder, and if no-one's clearing it even after weeks/months after launching then make them easier. However, leave the older and/or casual and/or story content alone - leave that to the casual's who want to play. Cuz if you make it harder, they will leave... they will not 'git gud' or 'learn to play'.

And as for the "if you're not doing the maximum dps/tanking/healing you're not really playing"... I'll use a FFXIV comeback - "you don't pay my sub". And they might not be playing to a min/max'ers standards, but they are still playing the game... they are playing to have fun, relaxe from their work/family/etc obligations and don't care about trying to maximize their classes potential.. as long as they can press buttons, do decently well, kill/heal/tank things and not die too much...then they are happy, havbing fun and will continue to play. Moment that stops, they'll move onto any number of other games that offer them easy casual fun.
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One thing that maybe could be done with the older content - such as ARR & HW dungeons & trials - is look at the level and gear synch settings. Because right now even with the synch'ing, these are all pretty much cakewalks due to overgearing... and it's usually only mechanics which kill people or threaten wipes. Maybe SE could look at tinkering with that so players stats and such are synched at a slightly lower level than they currently are - this would encourage better playing, while still not making the fights so hard as to discourage casual players from doing the content. They would likely need to keep tinkering with the stats & such till an 'optimum' level is found... but it's something I'd like to see them do

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Originally Posted by Kamatsu

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Raiding isnt meant for those kind of people, raiding EX/Savage requires time to learn your class(which isnt rocket science) and do mechanics while pushing out average dps at least to clear enrage, people whos mindset is "i dont have time to learn and work together with a group of 8" shouldnt be raiding, this isnt meant as an insult, but thats how raiding is, it requires effort(and not much) and some time, remember that you can clear that content anytime you want, you dont have to do it while its relavant, you can wait until you vastly overgear it.

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Originally Posted by Brill_

You can't raise over and over until dead because mages will run out of mp eventually.

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You don't play healers do you? I'm guessing not based on this statement.

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Originally Posted by Quor

By removing enrage timers, you can let tanks tank, healers heal, and dps can dps. [\[/B]

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Do you even know what you said there makes no sense? Let dps be dps if you remove enrage timer? DPS has a job in the game like the rest of them, tanking is keeping aggro, manage cds for busters and some AA, while that is completed you will work on the damage. Why do you need to do more aggro when it's already 30-40% ahead of everyone? Healer? Why heal when there is no damage coming? You should stop dps when healing is required. DPS? Should I explain? To kill things and prevent enrage. Doing what you said, again makes no sense and removing enrage will remove the thing dps is actually required to do. Removing enrage will lead to just healer and tanks, why not? Doing 1k dps on dps is what you can do without enrage.

Edit: We already let DPS, DPS, but some people just don't.

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Originally Posted by Kamatsu

And as for the "if you're not doing the maximum dps/tanking/healing you're not really playing"... I'll use a FFXIV comeback - "you don't pay my sub".

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Do the words reading comprehension mean anything to you?

Try reading what I wrote again, friend. 60~65% of maximum potential =/= maximum potential.

I didn't read most of what you wrote, I just skimmed and saw that. If you can kneejerk, then so can I.

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Originally Posted by StragoMagus

Zombie mode isn’t a method everyone can abuse since it will require a lot of time compared to burning down the boss since fatigue, nature’s call, real life obligations will be factored in the battle of attrition. So the faster you can complete the battle the less chance of causing a wipe due to human factors.

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you can eliminate zombie mode strats just changing the way death works. make weakness a cumulative thing. first death weakness drops all your stats 20% second death 40% 3rd death 60% 4th death 80% or something like that. something like that would make zombie mode things impossible.

you could scrap enrages add more actual dps checks thtoughout the fight and still keep the difficulty up there..

nothing worse than boss going screw you at 2-3%..

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Originally Posted by Nhadaly

Raiding isnt meant for those kind of people, raiding EX/Savage requires time to learn your class(which isnt rocket science) and do mechanics while pushing out average dps at least to clear enrage, people whos mindset is "i dont have time to learn and work together with a group of 8" shouldnt be raiding, this isnt meant as an insult, but thats how raiding is, it requires effort(and not much) and some time, remember that you can clear that content anytime you want, you dont have to do it while its relavant, you can wait until you vastly overgear it.

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Neither me nor the person I replied to was talking about RAIDS. He was talkign about upping the difficulty and including raid-like mechanics into normal DUNGEONS. He's was talking about making normal dungeons and casual play "harder" to try and 'encourage' players to play better - while all that would do is drive players away from the game.

Raiding is a completely different matter than making dungeons such as Cutter's cry harder, and it's something I agree should be hard. Raiding isn't for everyone, and raiding mechanics and difficulty should stay where they belong - in raids.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

nothing worse than boss going screw you at 2-3%..

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If you're hitting 2-3% enrage, one less death and you should clear. No need to remove enrage timers when the issue is something you can actively correct yourself.

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Originally Posted by Kamatsu

Here's the thing a lot of people who push for harder content for everyone, or push's for EX/Savage mechanics be put into normal/casual content, seem to miss

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I don't know who's pushing for that, but it's not me.

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most people who play this game (and most other MMO's for that matter) are casual players who don't have the time or inclination to 'git gud' or 'learn to be better'. These people have 30-90 minutes a day/2-days/week to play and just want to log in and play without having to stress, worry about hard-to-play mechanics or such.

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This is going to sound rude. Very, very rude. But it must be said:

IF YOU CAN ONLY PLAY FOR 3 HOURS A WEEK WHY IN THE NAME OF HOLY HELL ARE YOU PAYING A SUBSCRIPTION FOR A GODDAMN MMO?! You barely have time to watch a movie!

It's not the community's fault these people are trying to shove their fish into our peanut butter. Square should absolutely not be trying to cater to people like that, and if they do then the game will die. What Square should be doing - some of the things I've posted already - would also help poor, misguided people though. Gradual increases in difficulty to test that you're reasonably competent and can handle further trials is sort of the basic principal good of game design. Otherwise, you get to Final Steps of Faith and everyone just falls over dead during the loading screen.

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These are people that will leave a game if their casual content becomes too hard for them to casually beat, they won't go to forums, reddit, guides, etc to try and learn how to play better, they won't seek FC's / LS's / etc to try and improve... they will just up and quit the game.

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So your stance is that they can only play 3 hours a week if they're lucky, they don't have any desire to learn about the game whatsoever (even if Square put in some tutorials, gameplay or text-based), they don't have any desire to make friends, annnnd they just want to push the "win" button to either see the story or something. Is that correct?

I'm not sure those people exist. But if they do, **** those people and good riddance. Go watch a movie and be happy instead.

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something about Guild Wars 2

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This is incompetent game design. The market reacted accordingly. This isn't even remotely close to what I've suggested SE needs to do. And are already sort of doing badly, e.g. Final Steps of Faith and Royal Menagerie.

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Am I saying all content in FFXIV should be made casual? NO! There does still need to be harder-than-normal content for players who like and want to play content.

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And what about the middle? Are Square to just keep MSQ stuff so braindead that 2~3 players can carry the other 5~6, so that Royal Menagerie is exactly as hard as Cape Westwind, while also keeping the level of EX Primals and Savage content on a (mostly) upward trend?

Sounds like a bad idea to me. Especially if someone in the "casual" pool finds that they want to try getting into non-story stuff or, alternatively, someone in the "not casual" pool finds that their schedule doesn't currently work for getting to do EX Primals or Savage for a while and... literally everything else they can play while heavily sedated.

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And they might not be playing to a min/max'ers standards, but they are still playing the game... they are playing to have fun, relaxe from their work/family/etc obligations and don't care about trying to maximize their classes potential.. as long as they can press buttons, do decently well, kill/heal/tank things and not die too much...then they are happy, havbing fun and will continue to play. Moment that stops, they'll move onto any number of other games that offer them easy casual fun.

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I'm going to again assert that MMOs, themepark or otherwise, by their very nature are not friendly to the type of person you're trying to describe. And the people that I'm describing - that the endgame community constantly rails against - are definitely not pushing their buttons. When standard minimum competence is sitting around or a little above 3,000 and someone is barely managing 1,500 - ostensibly lower than auto-attacking and mass spamming a single offensive GCD button - there is something very, very wrong on a fundamental level.

Very few people actually expect/demand everyone to be perfect min-maxed tryhards. I don't think most would even be upset if people were doing rotations that weren't anywhere near optimal (provided they made some sort of logical sense and not Thunder III -> Thunder III -> Blizzard III -> Thunder III -> Fire III -> repeat) and were just actively engaged in the game. But a lot aren't, because the game doesn't expect them to and doesn't give them feedback that it's not okay because, well crud, these other people can just carry me.

I don't even understand how some of these people managed to clear their class quests and single-player instance MSQ battles.

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One thing that maybe could be done with the older content - such as ARR & HW dungeons & trials - is look at the level and gear synch settings. Because right now even with the synch'ing, these are all pretty much cakewalks due to overgearing... and it's usually only mechanics which kill people or threaten wipes. Maybe SE could look at tinkering with that so players stats and such are synched at a slightly lower level than they currently are - this would encourage better playing, while still not making the fights so hard as to discourage casual players from doing the content. They would likely need to keep tinkering with the stats & such till an 'optimum' level is found... but it's something I'd like to see them do

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This is essentially what I was advocating for.

Except even at minimally acceptable gear levels (per the dungeon/trial's ilvl restrictions) I still don't need a healer, or sometimes even DPS, to kill bosses like Chimera, Coincounter, Griffin and maybe a dozen or so others.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

If you're hitting 2-3% enrage, one less death and you should clear. No need to remove enrage timers when the issue is something you can actively correct yourself.

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not always something you can correct yourself if your not the one making the mistakes. and sometimes its not even mistakes it's just people being a bit more cautious with mechanics.

I generally play with friends so i'm not the guy that's gonna boot one of them out because them out because they are able to mechanics perfectly just not fall a fraction short on dps... and generally when you see wipes at 2-3% despite the fact you've survived everything to that point. it's infuriating and generally puts players off wanting to try again....

if they scrapped enrages but had more dps checks the overall difficulty of content wouldn't change that much but it would just get rid of those wipes that screw you over when you've actually done nothing wrong...

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Originally Posted by Kamatsu

most people who play this game are casual players who don't have the time or inclination to 'git gud' or 'learn to be better'. These people have 30-90 minutes a day/2-days/week to play and just want to log in and play without having to stress, worry about hard-to-play mechanics or such. These are people that will leave a game if their casual content becomes too hard for them to casually beat, they won't go to forums, reddit, guides, etc to try and learn how to play better, they won't seek FC's / LS's / etc to try and improve... they will just up and quit the game.

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This is something I've wanted to address for a while because it seems people like to toss around a certain word, and not only that but, twist it to fit their personal narrative. The term "Casual" in MMO's, only refers to the amount of time you are able to put into the game, It has absolutely nothing to do with what you do with that time or how you go about using that time.


Generalizing all players who can't put a lot of time into the game as players who are unable to complete endgame content because of a lack of skill and/or interest has nothing to do with being a casual player, all that is is a bad player or just someone that isn't interested in that type of content and has no relevance on how much time they can or can't spend on the game. There are plenty of endgame raiders that complete challenging content that have just as much time, if not less than your average casual player.


This is why this "casual player" argument holds no weight as a debate tactic. People constantly twist the word according to what their narrative is, instead of actually knowing what the word even means. Being a casual player doesn't mean that you are unable to complete content or push your character to it's maximum potential, all that is is a player who either has no desire to complete it due to lack of interest or someone that isn't good enough, both scenarios have nothing to do with being a casual player. Please stop using this word incorrectly.

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Originally Posted by Kamatsu

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Heres the thing tho, i see what ur trying to say, but people who have that casual "i only have x hours a week due to life" mindset also seep into raiding content which makes the quality of pick up groups in PF very low, so what im trying to advocate for right now, is for a well designed progressive difficulty curve in dungeon and trial content, if its well done then people will get better over time and will learn their class over time through playing the content while having fun instead of looking up guides on youtube or the balance discord which may look complicated to some, which will in turn, improve the quality of all PF groups overall, and those casual players that seep into raiding pfs wont be as bad, making the effort of trying to progress in pugs, or even trying to get weekly clears, less mind numbingly torturing.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

not always something you can correct yourself if your not the one making the mistakes. and sometimes its not even mistakes it's just people being a bit more cautious with mechanics.

I generally play with friends so i'm not the guy that's gonna boot one of them out because them out because they are able to mechanics perfectly just not fall a fraction short on dps... and generally when you see wipes at 2-3% despite the fact you've survived everything to that point. it's infuriating and generally puts players off wanting to try again....

if they scrapped enrages but had more dps checks the overall difficulty of content wouldn't change that much but it would just get rid of those wipes that screw you over when you've actually done nothing wrong...

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If a person really wants to clear, then they will work on correcting their mistakes to get their clear. You aren’t the one dying, but the healer is? Then that healer should work on rectifying their mistakes. Is the other tank dying to things? Then they should work on cleaning up their mistakes, too. It doesn’t matter if it’s not you personally; everyone should work to fix whatever went wrong.

Usually when you see enrage, it’s typically because there’s a lot of deaths, and people have damage penalties from Weakness/Brink of Death. Very rarely do you hit a 2% enrage due to low DPS not caused by multiple deaths. If that’s the case, work on your outgoing damage to make up that 2~3%: use foods, pots, a different opener, look into synergy with rBuffs if you run with jobs like NIN, DRG, BRD, MCH, etc.. Don’t ask for an easy way out.

If a person gives up after a 2~3% enrage, then maybe they don’t deserve the clear after all. Don’t look for an easy way out; push yourself and earn your clear rather than begging SE to remove enrage timers and make content easier so that you don’t have to try harder. I’m sorry if that sounds callous, but I’m tired of people just wanting things handed to them without trying to get better and earn what they want.

(Using the general “you” here, before there are any misconceptions.)

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Originally Posted by Darrcyphfeid

IF YOU CAN ONLY PLAY FOR 3 HOURS A WEEK WHY IN THE NAME OF HOLY HELL ARE YOU PAYING A SUBSCRIPTION FOR A GODDAMN MMO?! You barely have time to watch a movie!

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Because they want to? Maybe they play on Saturday with friends. Maybe they like the story. Maybe they fill their house with stuff. Who knows. It's really none of your business why they decide it's worth the money to them.

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It's not the community's fault these people are trying to shove their fish into our peanut butter. Square should absolutely not be trying to cater to people like that, and if they do then the game will die.

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Impressive. Every word you just said is wrong.

SE caters to them right now, with the entire story being accessable in easy content, with no features being gated behind difficult checks, with the mechanics designed to easily catch people up on gear at endgame so they're never far behind being able to do everything, with roulettes tossing experienced people in their groups to guide them through group content, and with the hand holding the game does.

The game has always been friendly to these people since 2.x. It seems to be pretty not dead.

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So your stance is that they can only play 3 hours a week if they're lucky, they don't have any desire to learn about the game whatsoever (even if Square put in some tutorials, gameplay or text-based), they don't have any desire to make friends, annnnd they just want to push the "win" button to either see the story or something. Is that correct?

I'm not sure those people exist. But if they do, **** those people and good riddance. Go watch a movie and be happy instead.

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SE management likely disagrees with you. Those people pay the same sub. They use fewer server resources. They don't complain on the forums. They've got a model that largely keeps them happy. That subscriber money gets used to fund things like ultimate, which those folks are definitely not doing. So it's working out pretty well.

I've seen games that decide that ZOMG HARDCORE CUPCAKE! is the way to go. Wildstar tried that. They listened to their echo chamber forum group of hardcore endgame raiders and focused on that too much in their marketing and at late/endgame in general (there were some downright brutal dungeons at higher level at launch). Those were very quickly the only players still around as everyone else ran out of stuff to do that wasn't overtuned for the casual market and quit. As it turns out, the hardcore raider market isn't big enough to sustain a MMO anymore. Which is why the large scale ones don't do that.

The gap between the people doing savage and the people who can barely do Rabanastre is certainly higher than I'd like, but keep some perspective. The high end tryhards are vastly outnumbered by the people who aren't them. From a financial PoV, if you have to cut one group it's pretty clear which one it is, but a smart game wants to keep both because people enjoy watching top players struggle against stuff they couldn't possibly do themselves. Which is why ultimate was such a success on Twitch compared to how the game usually is on there (basically non-existant).

As a compromise, they could have it so that if you don't beat it by the official original enrage time, you loose a chest, after a bit more time, the next chest goes and so does any titles / rewards. You got a clear but you got just that a clear only, no rewards or anything else. It has a similar effect as an enrage, punish poor performance but it would allow people to just get through it. It would also make for some very interesting specialty runs where people try to do the encounter with the fewest people possible.

But if we do want to keep the enrage timers and address the people who say "well why didn't the boss attack us like this in the beginning", just make up some lore like the boss is powering up or the ceiling will fall or some other deus ex machina reason.

Anyhow... I'm fine with the current system, it works. Yes it sucks that you get 1% wipes but the victory feels all the better when you do clear it. If we did away with enrages we would loose the nerd screams when clears do happen and who doesn't love a good nerd scream? ;)

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

As a compromise, they could have it so that if you don't beat it by the official original enrage time, you loose a chest, after a bit more time, the next chest goes and so does any titles / rewards. You got a clear but you got just that a clear only, no rewards or anything else. It has a similar effect as an enrage, punish poor performance but it would allow people to just get through it. It would also make for some very interesting specialty runs where people try to do the encounter with the fewest people possible.

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Isn't that going to lead to people deliberately wiping once they hit the chest timer? Clearing it 15 seconds later for no loot is a terrible outcome.

The problem is there's really no urgency in any of the regular content, what I mean by that is you're not even penalized for failing mechanics (if you can call them that) during main story or anything. The only time that you die maybe to a very very generous "enrage" is Nidhogg story where you gotta kill all the dragons before he 1 shots you other than that there's nothing. Honestly there should be more challenging things besides enrage timers for content while keeping players who are leveling to keep improving, as it stands current content sets the bar pretty low and even in Savage content you'll find people doing the bare minimum.

One of my favorite fights was The First Final Steps of Faith before it got nerfed wanna know why? It had all the mechanics for group play, you had tanks tanking adds, people on cannons, DPS killing adds and bosses, dodging AoEs and there was an enrage timer. If you didn't do the mechanics right or DPS as well as you should have you'd wipe and have to do it all over again which created a great challenge for people wanting to get into HW as it is a proper challenge, at least to me.

Enrage timers aren't the issue here in raiding, if you've been practicing and putting the effort into your class, whether it be tank, healer, or DPS, you'll beat the enrage timers while doing mechanics which makes a great raider, it's about optimizing and working as a team to get the most out of your raid group. I just feel SE needs to go back to tuning harder content to prepare people because as the game is at the moment people still don't know what they're doing at max lvl because of how the difficulty shifts from super easy to super hard, there needs to be preparation for max lvl content.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

Because they want to? Maybe they play on Saturday with friends. Maybe they like the story. Maybe they fill their house with stuff. Who knows. It's really none of your business why they decide it's worth the money to them.

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It becomes my business when that's the excuse they want to use for why they're in my PF. Or why I'm having a harder time carrying them in some random DF because they're constantly on the ground or otherwise doing their impression of a corpse with regards to how many buttons they're actually pushing in any given encounter.

That being said, I'd like to believe you're aware that I don't actually care what they do with their money and their time. And I'd like to reiterate that I'm not sure the people described in Kamatsu's strawman actually even exist.

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Impressive. Every word you just said is wrong.

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Really? Come on. I deserve better than some throwaway Star Wars quote. I pay me sub and do the gud deeps! I do the gud deeps! :|
Kylo Ren is a punk.

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SE caters to them right now, with the entire story being accessable in easy content, with no features being gated behind difficult checks, with the mechanics designed to easily catch people up on gear at endgame so they're never far behind being able to do everything, with roulettes tossing experienced people in their groups to guide them through group content, and with the hand holding the game does.

The game has always been friendly to these people since 2.x. It seems to be pretty not dead.

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Obviously the game is friendly to casual players - except when it's not, I mean - but that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that it is in SE's best interest to not cater to the whims of people that don't want to put any effort whatsoever into their game, that for all intents and purposes will never be a reliable revenue stream on an individual level, else we wind up with the current PvP combat system in PvE and encounters that never rise above a mildly-pitched yawn.

Let's not act like people weren't/aren't peeved at Steps of Faith, The Chrysalis, Garuda normal, etc. being nerfed. That people weren't adamant about Ozma, Nidhogg and Shinryu not receiving mechanical changes to appease the vocal backlash. That people weren't happy that 2.x had actual endgame progression structure - even if just as many, if not more, were happy when it was eventually abolished.

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SE management likely disagrees with you.

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Don't get me started on that group. Anything they want is definitely the last thing I want, XIV and especially otherwise.

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From a financial PoV, if you have to cut one group it's pretty clear which one it is, but a smart game wants to keep both because people enjoy watching top players struggle against stuff they couldn't possibly do themselves. Which is why ultimate was such a success on Twitch compared to how the game usually is on there (basically non-existant).

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Balance is indeed the key. While I have no quick and dirty example like Wildstar on the hardcore end, I can't imagine many games can survive solely off of their fickle and unreliable casual audience. I've gone down the rabbit hole a number of times weighing theories for what the game would look like if the higher end of the skill spectrum vanished.

Enrage has always been a cheap thing to do. It's not bad for some fights, but they abuse the hell out of it in their designs. They should just stick to most fights having a DPS check in the fight like meteors on neo instead of every fight being a DPS check to prevent a hard enrage.

I see the problem is that its become the norm for people to have healers and tank make up for people are not not performing well. FC that clear content easier can do so without a tank or healer pulling good dps. Its the friend paradox that make it a fail. " He is my friend and I want him to raid with us" Even though that friend may have sub-par DPS or inferior gear and is holding the FC back from success.

It's an ongoing theme. The game had gone so heavily into DPS that Tanks and Healers are now criticized for not doing enough DPS. There have been threads on that subject and I fell this falls into the same root cause.

Can we just take a step back for a second. A Tank and a Healer who already has a full time job of tanking or healing is being criticized for not doing enough DPS.

The game is going into an odd direction.

Maybe it's just the old mmo player in me but "End Game" should take more than 10min. It makes it feel more like a side project. I'm hoping that new Relic gear when ever it comes out actually takes time to complete. Really not into the idea of microwave mmo experience.

This has got to be the biggest troll thread ever. So if we don't have enrage timers and we don't have dps checks; then we just stand there and auto-attack the boss until it's dead and only worry about mechanics and healing. What would be the point of even bringing DPS at that point. Just go 2 tanks, 6 healers.

sure you can have enrage timers removed. you just don't get any loot after the fight and it doesn't count towards an actual clear.