Caster Changes in 4.2 (RIP Casters)

SMN didn't need a nerf in ST, maybe in AOE but not in ST, though I want to see the effect of the whole changes together to see how it'll pan out in the end

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Originally Posted by RLofOBFL

SMN needed a nerf. Plain and simple. It was doing more damage than SAMURAI in the 95 percentiles, being top dps. And it brought radiant shield/contagion & devotion. The BLM buff is going to add around 220 dps based on 95 percentile again. This will even out casters as is should be BLM > SMN > RDM, but will also most likely destroy SMN's already fragile place in any sort of meta.

On the other end they buffed MNK so much that it could replace MCH in the meta in triple melee friendly fights.

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SMN's personal damage on FFlogs included Radiant Shield, and was overestimated.

There's also some issues with their DoT's being overestimated according to Nemekh.

Bard/Ninja/Dragoon and Machinist were all better classes.

Feel free to checkout Blackcat's raid dps tool if you want more context

While you are correct it would even out casters, it also firmly makes sure no caster is anywhere near optimal.

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Originally Posted by RLofOBFL

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agree, smn needed a slight nerf, either aoe OR st, but NOT both (so much...).., or others needed a buff

with a slight nerf, smn would have still had a spot in the prog meta, just not so much in the speedkill meta..., but like this in 4.2, smn will lose the prog spot it shared with rdm, .. and for sure lost any speedkill spot .. and its personal dps is now probably the lowest of all dps in neither prog nor speedkill metas..

now mnk traded places with smn.., mnk did need a tick more help to secure its prog spot, but now it just might replace mch.. if not nin too in speedkills ..

SE always fvcks up, when they buff AND nerf classes at the same time

next QA? pls ask Yoshi how he sees the classes balances (prog, speedkill etc), and ask him pls to ffffging elaborate in more than just one fffffing sentence..

he should write a book about class balancing.. (not a biography...)

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Originally Posted by RLofOBFL

This will even out casters as is should be BLM > SMN > RDM

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See, now that's the part that bugs me.

Where do we get this preconceived notion that one class should out perform the other?

I understand comparing personal damage, raid damage, utility, etc. However, this notion that the casters, or any other groups of similar classes, need to be ranked against each other in this infallible list just strikes me as odd, and part of the reason we are so up-in-arms over some of the most trivial changes to the classes. I feel like if we stop trying to come up with some ordered list to the value of our caster classes, we'd all fee a lot better about how and what we play.

I get it, we all want "our" class to be better, and we are guilty of wanting it to be the best, to out perform the others. It's such a cliched reasoning but - it's human nature. But the sooner we stop thinking that way, and stop trying to rank the casters, the better.

Smn is now useless, good thing I didn't invest heavily into it, so all casters are garbage, got it.

I refuse to play a physical dd bandwagon, I am being forced into sch.

May just unsub (again) because of these pathetic changes, yes smn needed an aoe nerf, but not every single ability, get your act together..

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Originally Posted by Tsurayu

Where do we get this preconceived notion that one class should out perform the other?

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From the tradition of "Final Fantasy" games.

I don't play BLM; but in my Squee-fangirl heart of hearts, I believe the Black Mage (played correctly, with elegance) should always be the "Biggest Gun in the Universe" - the profession which makes everyone go "OH STERCUS WE ARE GOING TO DIE!" when they enter a room, with dramatic theme music :)

Summoners are stereotypically "nicer" than Black Mages; they tend to not want to go for FULL POWAH, playing to empathy.

And so on :)

~From an average SMN

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Originally Posted by CatStarPrime

From the tradition of "Final Fantasy" games.

I don't play BLM; but in my Squee-fangirl heart of hearts, I believe the Black Mage (played correctly, with elegance) should always be the "Biggest Gun in the Universe" - the profession which makes everyone go "OH STERCUS WE ARE GOING TO DIE!" when they enter a room, with dramatic theme music :)

Summoners are stereotypically "nicer" than Black Mages; they tend to not want to go for FULL POWAH, playing to empathy.

And so on :)

~From an average SMN

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Eeh? Have we been playing the same games? As far as I am aware Summoners have always been the far more... explosive mage. Granted Summoners can be seen as "nicer" but they are far from weaker. FFIX springs to mind. Vivi is next to useless end game compared to Eiko and Garnet, or even Quina for that matter.

Though they may have always been generally weaker in ST throughout the series, their ability to take out multiple foes was rarely, if ever, matched.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

Eeh? Have we been playing the same games? As far as I am aware Summoners have always been the far more... explosive mage.

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It's been a long time since I played 9, but I know I never used Eiko or Garnet if I wasn't forced to do so. I would take Zidane, Steiner, Vivi, and backfill with Frey or Amarant

After these nerfs to smn don't see playing one anymore. Why don't we ever see them nerfing rdm's or sam's. looks like time for me to find another class to main. If it wasn't for those tanks super pulling I would still main a healer. Also dps is affected by your ping to. If you have same class both geared the same one with lowest ping will still do more dps than other one because of the lag difference. Don't give care about other skills being nerfed only one don't like is Tri-Bond being lowered when its needed for large pulls. By lowering it will make dungeon times go up from lower dps.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

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RDM don't need a nerf. SAM is kind of just there. The nerfs are significant for SMN but not ground breaking. They will lose about 150-200 dps. I feel they should have just nerfed Ruin 3 OR WW. Nerfing both seems a bit much. Ruin 3 is the spam spell for SMN...so the 10 potency nerf is going to show. WW shouldn't have been touched since it is part of Bahamut rotation and that is already strict and IT SHOULD be worth the amount of effort that goes into using it. (Aetherflow has to be up, not moving during Bahamut, weaving Ruin 2 in with Festers + Tri D + Addle) It's an insanely strict rotation with little to no room for error.
But I've been loyal to SMN since launch, even when SMN was considered the worst job and there were statics with "LF DPS NO SMN ALLOWED" back at 50 cap - due to SMN literally being the worst job in the game.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

After these nerfs to smn don't see playing one anymore. Why don't we ever see them nerfing rdm's or sam's. looks like time for me to find another class to main. If it wasn't for those tanks super pulling I would still main a healer. Also dps is affected by your ping to. If you have same class both geared the same one with lowest ping will still do more dps than other one because of the lag difference.

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It's a minor nerf.. together with the FFLogs change it might be perceived larger than it is though.
You'll lose about 100 DPS from the nerf itself, and another 50-100 on fflogs from the radiant change.
The position of SMN won't really change at all. MCH might fall out of meta in favor of MNK, but SMN will still be a solid pick for a static, especially for normal progression groups.

Point is, no reason to change jobs over this (aside from the nerf having meme-status).

It is for me time to change classes. Getting very tiring that ever big patch seems like they nerf your class. Time for me to find new class that don't see every patch being nerfed with very little buffs ever. Time to pick a class that's always getting buffs and hardly ever getting nerfed.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

It is for me time to change classes. Getting very tiring that ever big patch seems like they nerf your class. Time for me to find new class that don't see every patch being nerfed with very little buffs ever. Time to pick a class that's always getting buffs and hardly ever getting nerfed.

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Enjoy Dragoon ;)

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Originally Posted by wereotter

Enjoy Dragoon ;)

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Pretty easy I got drg,mnk, and mcn all to level 70 just incase something happened to smn again.

Honestly, this was more than deserved, considering how overtuned Summoner was for the last patch. They could out damage Samurai and Black Mage, despite having the utility to make up for their damage.

Now this should put them in the same place as SAM, rather than above it.

Sounds fishy to me. Every ex roulette dungeon ever done that's had a rdm, blm, or sam in party always done way more than I every have in dps. Most Have ever seen once for a crit was 20k damage but a friend of mine that has way lower ilvl for his sam says he crits for 30+k so how is a summoners dps higher than a sams. Also have another friend that mains a blm and way out dps's me. Sounds like summoner hate to me. Summoner gets good boost and now everyone gets mad so to fix it they nerf it and i'm pretty sure last patch they nerfed it to. Sams doesn't deserve a boost anymore than another class does. Why should they even be compare them to a caster. There melee and not one that uses magic. They should only be compared to a monk, dragoon, or a ninja since there a close range dps and not a range dps class.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

Sounds fishy to me.

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It certainly does, but that's because you're thinking only of bursts. Summoner's strength lies in sustained damage, and the fact that they can constantly have at least 300 potency of damage per 3seconds, without any need to worry about serious clipping or losing potency or similar. However, on top of their sustained damage, they also have powerful oGCDs (Fester, Deathflare and Akh Morn) that can inflict serious damage.

And Samurai is compared to SMN simply because of SMN's overwhelming damage... just as it would be compared to Black Mage for that matter. But if you wanna compare SMN to BLM, SMN objectively outperforms BLM in terms of DPS, even if numbers "feel" low.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

Sounds fishy to me. Every ex roulette dungeon ever done that's had a rdm, blm, or sam in party always done way more than I every have in dps. Most Have ever seen once for a crit was 20k damage but a friend of mine that has way lower ilvl for his sam says he crits for 30+k so how is a summoners dps higher than a sams. Also have another friend that mains a blm and way out dps's me. Sounds like summoner hate to me. Summoner gets good boost and now everyone gets mad so to fix it they nerf it and i'm pretty sure last patch they nerfed it to. Sams doesn't deserve a boost anymore than another class does. Why should they even be compare them to a caster...

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Wow i don't even know where to start here. Summoner is right now the strongest DPS in the game, not just personal DPS but actual contributed Raid DPS, people complain because they have very little idea how to properly play the job. Maybe you should check out a guide before complaining.

that math seems off, smn only losing overall 100 dps in 4.2

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Originally Posted by Tsurayu

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Because the way it goes is the more party utility you bring, the less DPS you bring. (that's been the golden rule with XIV)
Every job is supposed to have it's place.
for casters:
BLM are supposed to be the high dps job (that bring no party buffs, they just bring more damage)
SMN has a raise, and party utility in the forms of devotion and such, so in a perfect balanced world it shouldnt bring as much dps as the BLM but still be up there.
RDM is a two faced coin, it brings a bad heal and a raise, and it's dps by double cast, heal + raise + doublecast making able to pull raises out more (without factoring in MP) makes it slightly lower than SMN in damage.

I personally will stay with BLM as my DPS to go job, it's the job i'm the most proefficient with and the only thing I was remotely bad at was loosing the TC buff once in a while over a fight and this got partially adressed. (I'm not sure the FS buff will really help but hey, better than nothing)

I'm not aiming at first week clear or anything so by the time I reach OS8(secretcoolpart2) I'll have a few ilv over the very first kills that will compensate for the few % (and skill) i'm behind.



I'm not saying this makes BLM situation fine but I hardly doubt every single BLM on this forum is a top server BLM aiming for first week clear or even fflogs. Therefor being a few percent behind should not affect them that badly. In my own experience, these last few digits only really matter when you do content very early or overly tightly tunned (Midas), this is not the case and every single wipe I had from an enrage could have been traced to player's death rather than me doing a few percent less than a SMN. By that I mean, I've never wiped at 1 or even2% on a perfect run. Every single time I've had an enrage was during a run with at least one death. remove that death and the boss would have tanked the ground.

Regardless, I still feel that the buff are a bit meager and altough I was hoping for a bit more, I have hope for future patch.

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Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

Honestly, this was more than deserved, considering how overtuned Summoner was for the last patch. They could out damage Samurai and Black Mage, despite having the utility to make up for their damage.

Now this should put them in the same place as SAM, rather than above it.

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You miss the point. This is not about BLM damage getting higher than summoner, it's about the whole caster class being garbage compared to others. BLM needed a much higher buff (SAM in accordance) and smn shouldn't have been nerfed, that's it (maybe in aoe but not single target). It seems we're designed to do less damage, explain me if it makes sense to you considering some other classes with higher utility do higher rdps than we do.

Besides, when you compare classes, you compare the raid dps, not the personnal dps as the latter doesn't take in account the damage you provide to the team through buffs.

The dev team really needs to bite the bullet, admit that they don't like casters, and delete them from the game. Refund the wasted EXP on them and let people put it towards a melee job or Bard, because those are clearly what the developers prefer.

I should discard my caster gear in protest. Or my subscription.

They will still think casters are gucci because people will roll SMN and RDM in great amounts for progression. even though they're tossed aside somewhat 8 weeks later.

I am raiding with my Black Mage and could never find a decent static in deltascape, these changes arent gonna make it any better, im dissapointed. :(

wonder if SE goes like "what jobs are overused / overplayed?.. lets nerf them ffck out if them"...

are casters the most used dps atm?

(and blm got the absolute minimum buff possible)

but Im serious, can someone ask wtf Yoshi was thinking when balaning the jobs in the next Q&A.., and make him elaborate ... more than one ffing sentence (like "blm is strong, so 280 enough")

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Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

Honestly, this was more than deserved, considering how overtuned Summoner was for the last patch. They could out damage Samurai and Black Mage, despite having the utility to make up for their damage.

Now this should put them in the same place as SAM, rather than above it.

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Is there anything you wouldn't defend SE for? You clearly aren't able to read people's posts that explain why SMN was not overtuned.

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Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

It certainly does, but that's because you're thinking only of bursts. Summoner's strength lies in sustained damage, and the fact that they can constantly have at least 300 potency of damage per 3seconds, without any need to worry about serious clipping or losing potency or similar. However, on top of their sustained damage, they also have powerful oGCDs (Fester, Deathflare and Akh Morn) that can inflict serious damage.

And Samurai is compared to SMN simply because of SMN's overwhelming damage... just as it would be compared to Black Mage for that matter. But if you wanna compare SMN to BLM, SMN objectively outperforms BLM in terms of DPS, even if numbers "feel" low.

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What on earth? SMN is a burst class. Seriously, do you even play this game? How can anyone take you seriously when you flat out don't have a clue about how SMN works or even how raid buffs work.

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Originally Posted by GenjuroK

Wow i don't even know where to start here. Summoner is right now the strongest DPS in the game, not just personal DPS but actual contributed Raid DPS, people complain because they have very little idea how to properly play the job. Maybe you should check out a guide before complaining.

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Maybe you should actually learn about why FFlogs overestimated SMN. BRD+DRG+NIN+MCH were all better.

Where was my Verraise nerf?!?! Where? I wanted it so bad. And stronger pew pew to compensate. More on topic though, BLM didn't get the numbers they deserved. And if the double ranged meta wasn't so dominant, yeah SMN probably deserved those nerfs, but y'know all physical meta.

Hmm..why do the devs keep changing things, fix em, then change them back to being bad?

I don't even know why I ask..this has been happening since 1.x days lol good to see nothing has changed. :D PLD and WAR would take turns being "good" in patches...heh. So what's up with the caster hate anyway..glad I unsubbed...whatever :/

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

Where was my Verraise nerf?!?! Where? I wanted it so bad. And stronger pew pew to compensate. More on topic though, BLM didn't get the numbers they deserved. And if the double ranged meta wasn't so dominant, yeah SMN probably deserved those nerfs, but y'know all physical meta.

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I've not seen the all physical meta from where I play, but if that's becoming a thing, then the easiest solution is probably not a buff to casters across the board, but instead a nerf to disembowel. Even though it currently is lower than similar debuffs (5% verses 10% on slashing and blunt) it's still 5% on three DPS jobs, which adds up a lot. Bringing it down to 3% and adding a buff to DRG's personal skills to compensate that job might make it more fair.

Though I'll admit to not knowing just how much of an impact that will make as I only dabble in casting jobs, and don't really play BRD or MCH.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

I've not seen the all physical meta from where I play, but if that's becoming a thing, then the easiest solution is probably not a buff to casters across the board, but instead a nerf to disembowel. Even though it currently is lower than similar debuffs (5% verses 10% on slashing and blunt) it's still 5% on three DPS jobs, which adds up a lot. Bringing it down to 3% and adding a buff to DRG's personal skills to compensate that job might make it more fair.

Though I'll admit to not knowing just how much of an impact that will make as I only dabble in casting jobs, and don't really play BRD or MCH.

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No, piercing down either needs to be made personal to DRG, or given to BRD and MCH. Either option opens up the meta more than leaving it as is. Casters are unrewarding enough as it is so I favor the former if this continues to be the state of caster 'changes'

I'm going to reiterate what several others said, I see the AOE nerf on smn being applicable. I am not so sure why both WW and R3 got the nerf. I'd have expected them to at least left WW intact since it seems like they moved towards big burst damage on smn. I will play the updated smn before I complain, but I'm wondering how much thought SE gave to these changes and I'm hoping it won't be like the clunky 4.0 changes where I'm full of regret for playing my beloved class again.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

Maybe you should actually learn about why FFlogs overestimated SMN. BRD+DRG+NIN+MCH were all better.

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Not talking about fflogs, i mean actual contributed Raid DPS, According to http://xivrdps.herokuapp.com SMN are usually top 3 depending the encounter, sometimes behind Nin/DRG, somtimes ahead. MCH/BRD were usually slightly behind the trio.
Compare that to a Samurai (and BLM pre 4.2) who are leagues behind in terms of Raid DPS and contribute absolutely nothing.

BLM gets some buffs, it might still not be good enough to be desirable for some statics, Summoner will be very welcome in most groups because of great dps, some utility and Rezzes, RDM will be welcome for progress, not so much for speed clears, then you have either BRD/MCH for a physical Range slot and NIN/DRG/MNK fighting for the 2 melee slots while Samurais are actually dead.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

I've not seen the all physical meta from where I play, but if that's becoming a thing, then the easiest solution is probably not a buff to casters across the board, but instead a nerf to disembowel. Even though it currently is lower than similar debuffs (5% verses 10% on slashing and blunt) it's still 5% on three DPS jobs, which adds up a lot. Bringing it down to 3% and adding a buff to DRG's personal skills to compensate that job might make it more fair.

Though I'll admit to not knowing just how much of an impact that will make as I only dabble in casting jobs, and don't really play BRD or MCH.

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It already was a thing and has been a thing since 3.0 - intitially it was MCH + DRG + NIN + MNK, but then MNK was switched out for BRD in 3.3. In more recent times, groups have found success with both the double ranged comp and the Triple Melee comp - with BRD/DRG/NIN being a staple on both comps.

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Originally Posted by GenjuroK

Not talking about fflogs, i mean actual contributed Raid DPS, According to http://xivrdps.herokuapp.com SMN are usually top 3 depending the encounter, sometimes behind Nin/DRG, somtimes ahead. MCH/BRD were usually slightly behind the trio.
Compare that to a Samurai (and BLM pre 4.2) who are leagues behind in terms of Raid DPS and contribute absolutely nothing.

BLM gets some buffs, it might still not be good enough to be desirable for some statics, Summoner will be very welcome in most groups because of great dps, some utility and Rezzes, RDM will be welcome for progress, not so much for speed clears, then you have either BRD/MCH for a physical Range slot and NIN/DRG/MNK fighting for the 2 melee slots while Samurais are actually dead.

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It absolutely isn't when you compare it with a proper meta comp. DRG/NIN/BRD/MCH all provided more than SMN when using the meta comp setup.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that SAM and BLM are in bad spots - but that isn't because of SMN, that is because SAM and BLM are bad classes.

NIN/DRG aren't fighting for raid spots. Its Bard/NIN/DRG that have solidified the top three spots, with MCH/MNK/SMN competing for the last spot. Its likely that spot will be solidified by MNK in 4.2.

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Originally Posted by NovaBismarck

I'm going to reiterate what several others said, I see the AOE nerf on smn being applicable. I am not so sure why both WW and R3 got the nerf. I'd have expected them to at least left WW intact since it seems like they moved towards big burst damage on smn.

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I think its a try to push smn between rdm and blm in numbers - but I bet there will be readjustments for sure... ruin lll will have a major impact on our overall dmg, like it got with sb were it was nerfed in pot as well, it appeared totally weak compared to HW and now its pot is nerfed even more – im not sure if they know what they've done with that adjustment. Since Blm got a de-nerf on F4 (nerf -> re-buffed), Ruin lll on smn got multiply nerfs in pot... which is kinda funny somehow being a ruin-mage with a 120 pot main-rota skill on its 3rd lvl... ^^'

this will change a lot : /

I started liking Summoner after it got buffed....

I'm amazed that instead of buffing Wyrmwave and removing its usability with actions that do no damage (Addle in particular), they did not address this issue at all and instead just nerfed it. Such facepalm.

I don't think the SMN changes were necessary at all the aoe was already gutted with the bane nerf, and yes SMN was supposed to be your best aoe class now that title can go to SAM.

But the nerf to WW and Ruin III our Two very important skills essential to our dps I was just like WTF SE lol what game are you even doing job balancing for becuase it ain't XIV.

Throw the whole balancing team away!!

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

Its likely that spot will be solidified by MNK in 4.2.

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Especially if you consider that Brotherood lines up perfectly with WAR's new IR, though I would say that the new diversion is kinda an indirect nerf to shadewalker.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

I'm amazed that instead of buffing Wyrmwave and removing its usability with actions that do no damage (Addle in particular), they did not address this issue at all and instead just nerfed it. Such facepalm.

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it would have been enough to just take addle from the ww trigger-list leaving Ruin lll as it is. That would have been resulted in a slight burst nerf while we actually could use addle in its intended function as a def-utility. Would had been way easier than this pot-adjustments... but well we will see how this will work out.

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Summoner
We made adjustments to decrease the potency of their area of effect and single target attacks. Because summoners are able to continuously damage over time, and this being one of the main aspects, we believe they will continue to perform well in content that require a lot of movement.

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out of the live letter summary.... this statement can't be for real... our dots doesn't have any kind of advantage compared to other cls. not anymore. we lost our 3rd dot, the remaining ones got pot adjustments several times, bane got a drop-off effect, we can't extend their duration anymore cause of the con adjust and shadow flare got a salty long cd which made it way less flexible. how can that still be called "one of the main aspects" of this cls... even if f.e. Brds have two dots as well with an even easier way for 100% uptime or Sam who has a 1 minute dot which can be buffed by themselves as well? so u wanna give us back M2 and take off the dropdown from bane again?... but in the current situation this is just flat & laughable to point on our dots... #lameexplaination #facepalm

Sorry but this argument is pure bullshit and absolutely doesn't fit any kind of their actions to this cls since the early HW when all the buff burst, nerf dots BS started : /