Dear PLDs

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

You are such an entitled little baby. Healers are adventurers too, and they're there to kick ass and clear dungeons. I can't count the number of times that my dumb ass has been saved over the years from an overpull with a swiftcast + holy combo, or as I've taken to calling it, "Shock and Awe." When you're running with a dpsing healer that knows what she's doing, the only words to describe it are "smooth as fuck." Shit gets buttoned up fast. Why would anyone be opposed to that? You may as well tell me not to fell cleave while tanking.

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I had too many wipes with the healer forgetting to heal me, because they were so focused on spreading their dots on mobs instead and i have enough of that pushing healers to do dps bullcrap, that makes those who are bad to be worse healers than heal only with 3 buttons keyboard, thats not helping...
Wiping doesnt make things smooth at all.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

I had too many wipes with the healer forgetting to heal me, because they were so focused on spreading their dots on mobs instead and i have enough of that pushing healers to do dps bullcrap, that makes those who are bad to be worse healers than heal only with 3 buttons keyboard, thats not helping...
Wiping doesnt make things smooth at all.

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I do find it interesting how there are constant complaints about 'bad healers' so often on these forums that cause wipes 'so many times', yet ive been playing tank since 2.0 in this game, have a mediocre geared tank alt character. Suffice it to say i've done more than my share of dungeons and content in general and still find it exceedingly rare to ever wipe in dungeons. You are the only common denominator in every one of your dungeon runs. If your dungeons are bad, maybe its not the healers fault. This goes for all the QQ threads and posts on this forum. If you regularly struggle with 'bad players' so often, maybe its not the people around you that are the problem. Anyone that I know who id consider a 'skilled player' never whines about dungeons. But the forum sure has a lot of 'bad rng' groups. Coincidence?

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Originally Posted by Izsha

I do find it interesting how there are constant complaints about 'bad healers' so often on these forums that cause wipes 'so many times', yet ive been playing tank since 2.0 in this game, have a mediocre geared tank alt character. Suffice it to say i've done more than my share of dungeons and content in general and still find it exceedingly rare to ever wipe in dungeons. You are the only common denominator in every one of your dungeon runs. If your dungeons are bad, maybe its not the healers fault. This goes for all the QQ threads and posts on this forum. If you regularly struggle with 'bad players' so often, maybe its not the people around you that are the problem. Anyone that I know who id consider a 'skilled player' never whines about dungeons. But the forum sure has a lot of 'bad rng' groups. Coincidence?

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Its not about the skill, but about the game style, you cant really predict at which moment your tank will fall down to 30-50% in a mere of a second or two, so mindset of "doing as high dps as possible" is the reason why wipes ever happen, since you could heal so hard in this game, it only depends on you as a healer if you let the tank to die or not, it has nothing to do with skill at all. Pushing heal button and maybe healing CD is easy.
So far i never got wiped with a healer that only healed me, allowed me to pull so much and clear faster than those who has a weird need of doing more dps than the actual dps themselves.
You could call a skill a mix of healing and dealing damage, i dont care i want a healer to heal, not to risk a wipe with doing crazy 50 potency aoe.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

You could call a skill a mix of healing and dealing damage, i dont care i want a healer to heal, not to risk a wipe with doing crazy 50 potency aoe.

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Nedkel: Healer dps is a thing. It's been a thing for years. Everyone from high-end raiders to filthy casuals, does it. It makes runs faster and it gives healers something to do other than play whack-a-mole with your health bar. You're not going to get into any kind of meaningful endgame content by insisting that they just nursemaid you. No static or FC will take you raiding with that attitude, and duty finder and party finder groups will punt you in a hot second if you mention your interesting theories about what healers should do. You just have to learn to deal, chum. This is the way it is.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Its not about the skill, but about the game style, you cant really predict at which moment your tank will fall down to 30-50% in a mere of a second or two, so mindset of "doing as high dps as possible" is the reason why wipes ever happen, since you could heal so hard in this game, it only depends on you as a healer if you let the tank to die or not, it has nothing to do with skill at all. Pushing heal button and maybe healing CD is easy.
So far i never got wiped with a healer that only healed me, allowed me to pull so much and clear faster than those who has a weird need of doing more dps than the actual dps themselves.

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You can predict when your tanks health is going to drop super easily. The only time ypu can't is when you don't know the content or the tank is super bad. And if the tank is bad I'm not gonna sit there and baby sit them. I'll tell them how they need to shape up and if they refuse I'd sooner kick them.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

So far i never got wiped with a healer that only healed me, allowed me to pull so much and clear faster than those who has a weird need of doing more dps than the actual dps themselves.
You could call a skill a mix of healing and dealing damage, i dont care i want a healer to heal, not to risk a wipe with doing crazy 50 potency aoe.

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If you're taking so much damage that the healer always has zero DPS uptime, you're likely slowing the run down, not speeding it up. Holy is still the absolute best mitigation in the game besides your own Hallowed Ground, and it doesn't look like that's going to change anytime soon.

If you're using the DF, you're already taking a gamble on what you're going to get. You never know if you're gonna get a top-tier savage raider or someone who just started the game today and doesn't know anything about half their skills yet. If you always want zero-DPS healers, use the PF instead and mention it in your requirements.

Any healer worth anything is going to try and weave in DPS whenever possible, and especially in the case of WHM, the quest dialogue itself even encourages it early on. I personally have been DPSing the entire time I've been playing WHM. Just because you're dropping low sometimes because of healer DPS, doesn't mean that they don't know what they're doing. Mistakes happen, sure, but its not something you have to go full-on rant about when it does.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

You are the only common denominator in every one of your dungeon runs. If your dungeons are bad, maybe its not the healers fault. This goes for all the QQ threads and posts on this forum. If you regularly struggle with 'bad players' so often, maybe its not the people around you that are the problem. Anyone that I know who id consider a 'skilled player' never whines about dungeons. But the forum sure has a lot of 'bad rng' groups. Coincidence?

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I think your argument is weak.
While an unskilled player could be delusional in thinking they are skilled and that everyone else is the problem. An unskilled player could just as easily be delusional in thinking they are skilled and that most players are skilled because of how the other players perform comparatively. For example, a tank with terrible DPS may not think there are that many bad DPS players in the game because the bad DPS players are doing much more dps than the bad tank. An unskilled tank may pull so little almost all healers seem good or at least sufficient.

'Bad' is also subjective. The wall-to-wall dog section pull of Ala Mhigo presents a good example. One of the problems that can occur when attempting this pull is that the healer can be targeted by multiple AoEs, which forces them to move and stop hard-casting.
If this causes a wipe, who, if anyone, is bad?
The PLD could have covered the movement with clemency or possibly HG.
The WHM could have covered the movement with an insta-cast.
The RDM or BRD could have offered support
etc

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

You could call a skill a mix of healing and dealing damage, i dont care i want a healer to heal, not to risk a wipe with doing crazy 50 potency aoe.

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My question to you is do you rotate your CDs? If you're doing that while pulling everything in a dungeon a healer will still have time to DPS and heal whether it be a Whm with Holy and putting Aero 3 up, or a Sch putting Shadowflare down and Baneing you are not gonna die in 5 seconds flat. Not to mention Holy and Shadowflare are amazing mitigation as well as dealing damage, not to mention Astro can give you a Bole which is a 20% CD (basically a Rampart) to extend or even make it stronger while dealing damage.

Get it out of your head that the people you are getting in your dungeons are the super crazy people who want 99999999 damage at all times no, we just want people to actually give a damn and use their toolkits and help out with the group.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

When my exogitation falls off instead of being used because the pld is standing there clemency-ing himself, he is 100% in the wrong. Just use your dumb spinny attack that ya'll begged for so much and let me do my job. I don't need your help to dps and heal.

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Excog still terminates after timer:
Grants target party member other than self the effect of Excogitation, restoring HP when member's HP falls below 50% or upon effect duration expiration.
Cure Potency: 800
Duration: 45s
Additional Effect: Increases Faerie Gauge by 10
Aetherflow Gauge Cost: 1

Perhaps though the full effect is what you are referring to?: This make me feel safer they did this incase the excog wasn't going to be enough in the end and they timed it to clem themselves with the excog going off at the sameish time to fully full tank heal themselves.

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Originally Posted by JockHarley

Excog still terminates after timer:
Grants target party member other than self the effect of Excogitation, restoring HP when member's HP falls below 50% or upon effect duration expiration.
Cure Potency: 800
Duration: 45s
Additional Effect: Increases Faerie Gauge by 10
Aetherflow Gauge Cost: 1

Perhaps though the full effect is what you are referring to?: This make me feel safer they did this incase the excog wasn't going to be enough in the end and they timed it to clem themselves with the excog going off at the sameish time to fully full tank heal themselves.

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The fact that it heals at all upon the duration expiring was something added in in 4.2.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

The fact that it heals at all upon the duration expiring was something added in in 4.2.

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heh, I clearly pay 0 attention to these updates, I should really change that lolol.

I hope you're having a good day too, ty for replying^^

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Originally Posted by winsock

I think your argument is weak.
While an unskilled player could be delusional in thinking they are skilled and that everyone else is the problem. An unskilled player could just as easily be delusional in thinking they are skilled and that most players are skilled because of how the other players perform comparatively. For example, a tank with terrible DPS may not think there are that many bad DPS players in the game because the bad DPS players are doing much more dps than the bad tank. An unskilled tank may pull so little almost all healers seem good or at least sufficient.

'Bad' is also subjective. The wall-to-wall dog section pull of Ala Mhigo presents a good example. One of the problems that can occur when attempting this pull is that the healer can be targeted by multiple AoEs, which forces them to move and stop hard-casting.
If this causes a wipe, who, if anyone, is bad?
The PLD could have covered the movement with clemency or possibly HG.
The WHM could have covered the movement with an insta-cast.
The RDM or BRD could have offered support
etc

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You completely missed the point.

You think I haven't run with bad healers, or had bad aoe position luck, had good/bad players in my parties? I've been doing dungeons in this game for over 4 years. This has nothing to do with 'luck'. You cant do dungeons for 4 years and never run into a bad party. I've had some really bad/undergeared healers. I've had bad/undergeared DPS. I've had off days where I play poorly (or way back when I was also new at one point). Yet, somehow, as if by magic I rarely ever wipe in dungeons regardless of the party composition. If you do dungeons as a tank you have an obscene amount of control over the run. If you run as tank and routinely have parties 'so bad' that they wipe, then its you. If you are a DPS you are kinda stuck with whatever derpy healer/tank combo you get and theres not a ton a non-support DPS can do about it. But if you are the tank and keep running into 'bad groups' that just make you wipe, then take a look in the mirror. You are the one person with the most control in how the run will go. If they constantly go poorly that points to 1 place.

^^^^That's 99% true. But there are times when you can do everything with near perfection and still wipe due to the healer screwing up.

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Originally Posted by 347SPECTRE

^^^^That's 99% true. But there are times when you can do everything with near perfection and still wipe due to the healer screwing up.

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Oh absolutely. I did not say I NEVER wiped in 4 years. But if 99% of the time it works, then is the 1% it doesn't really some healer DPS epidemic? Nah. Its just 1 particularly bad player or 1 particularly bad day for an otherwise fine healer.

But if you happen to be a tank and wiping seems commonplace, then you should really look inwards before blaming outwards. There is a whole lot you can do as the puller and primary source of mitigation to prevent wipes. You control the size of the pulls and how much mitigation you use. Just because the healer cast 1 gcd of DPS and you die doesn't automatically mean its the healers fault. If your situation was that precarious then theres a good chance you had a role in making it that razor thin.

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Originally Posted by JockHarley

heh, I clearly pay 0 attention to these updates, I should really change that lolol.

I hope you're having a good day too, ty for replying^^

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You as well.

I only Clemency during a raid when there's a raid-wide AoE+followed by Tank buster simultaneously. Like Doom Strike+Acid Rain. I just don't trust healers in PUG.

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Originally Posted by Aana

Yet, somehow, as if by magic I rarely ever wipe in dungeons regardless of the party composition.

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What I am saying is your claim is weak, for reasons such as:
1) you dont clearly define "good" and "bad" healers
2) the only measurement you're using is the an undefined frequency of wipes.
3) you aren't taking into account other negative factors such as pulling small or under-pulling

Here are some examples of why the items above break your argument:
1) (For the sake of thread irony: ) If someone defines a bad healer as a healer who would heal a tank when they are near full hp, I run into them fairly frequently.

2) If the healer has cure II as an option, but decides cure I is the way to go when the tank makes a large pull and a wipe occurs, it is the healer's fault. It doesnt matter how often it happens.

3) If the tank prevents a wipe from occurring by breaking a section into multiple pulls because he recognized the healer was bad, the healer is still bad. wipes arent the only thing that matters.
Likewise, if the tank is constantly underpulling, that doesnt mean the healer is good, it means the tank is bad.

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Originally Posted by winsock

What I am saying is your claim is weak, for reasons such as:
1) you dont clearly define "good" and "bad" healers
2) the only measurement you're using is the an undefined frequency of wipes.
3) you aren't taking into account other negative factors such as pulling small or under-pulling

Here are some examples of why the items above break your argument:
1) (For the sake of thread irony: ) If someone defines a bad healer as a healer who would heal a tank when they are near full hp, I run into them fairly frequently.

2) If the healer has cure II as an option, but decides cure I is the way to go when the tank makes a large pull and a wipe occurs, it is the healer's fault. It doesnt matter how often it happens.

3) If the tank prevents a wipe from occurring by breaking a section into multiple pulls because he recognized the healer was bad, the healer is still bad. wipes arent the only thing that matters.
Likewise, if the tank is constantly underpulling, that doesnt mean the healer is good, it means the tank is bad.

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Youre redefining the issue. The original 'issue' described that I'm responding to was healers that DPS to much and cause wipes ("bad healers") and an implication that there are a lot of these 'bad healers' that are frequently causing wipes.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

I had too many wipes with the healer forgetting to heal me, because they were so focused on spreading their dots on mobs instead and i have enough of that pushing healers to do dps bullcrap, that makes those who are bad to be worse healers than heal only with 3 buttons keyboard, thats not helping...
Wiping doesnt make things smooth at all.

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Which is a common sentiment expressed on these forums, not just this 1 post. To which I pointed out that a healer doing some DPS has rarely, if ever been the cause of wipes in my dungeons, and certainly not the implied frequency in the quoted post (and similar "bad healers are DPSing everywhere posts/threads). Instead I offer a more rational option. If you regularly have trouble dealing with (insert dungeon pug problem), then the only thing in common with all those groups of entirely random and unrelated people doing dungeons is you and your play. Look inward before looking to blame outward. You can avoid the evil wipes with a variety of tactics, gear, and skill with all but the most abysmally terrible healer.

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

Nedkel: Healer dps is a thing. It's been a thing for years. Everyone from high-end raiders to filthy casuals, does it. It makes runs faster and it gives healers something to do other than play whack-a-mole with your health bar. You're not going to get into any kind of meaningful endgame content by insisting that they just nursemaid you. No static or FC will take you raiding with that attitude, and duty finder and party finder groups will punt you in a hot second if you mention your interesting theories about what healers should do. You just have to learn to deal, chum. This is the way it is.

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It seems like the only option to do so is to stop using any deffensive spells at all.
It hurt the guts if i see 1 cure spell casted in 10-15 seconds period of time when im running out of cd's, mana for drain and TBN as drk to keep myself alive with 3 groups pull.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

You can predict when your tanks health is going to drop super easily. The only time ypu can't is when you don't know the content or the tank is super bad. And if the tank is bad I'm not gonna sit there and baby sit them. I'll tell them how they need to shape up and if they refuse I'd sooner kick them.

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Does a tank dying makes him bad or a healer bad? You could only sustain yourself as a tank so long, cant hold the breath for eternity.
You are not asked by the game to do dps in 90% of the game content, its not needed, my complaints are there.

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Originally Posted by Driskus

If you're taking so much damage that the healer always has zero DPS uptime, you're likely slowing the run down, not speeding it up. Holy is still the absolute best mitigation in the game besides your own Hallowed Ground, and it doesn't look like that's going to change anytime soon.

If you're using the DF, you're already taking a gamble on what you're going to get. You never know if you're gonna get a top-tier savage raider or someone who just started the game today and doesn't know anything about half their skills yet. If you always want zero-DPS healers, use the PF instead and mention it in your requirements.

Any healer worth anything is going to try and weave in DPS whenever possible, and especially in the case of WHM, the quest dialogue itself even encourages it early on. I personally have been DPSing the entire time I've been playing WHM. Just because you're dropping low sometimes because of healer DPS, doesn't mean that they don't know what they're doing. Mistakes happen, sure, but its not something you have to go full-on rant about when it does.

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I dont have holly ground on DRK, living death is ok, but it kills you anyway.
I dont care if someone is playing for first time or 5 years already, casting cure does not require Faker abilities. I just dont like healers trying to play dps and dont heal, because they see tank holding on his own. When cd's go off i die in a moment, cant help nothing about it, call me bad and stupid, i cant hands up.
It doesnt happen all the time, but still happens every fourth or fifth run, but what happen often is me dropping to like 10% hp for some reasons, how and why?
I have read too much garbage here like "oh healers have so strong heals, they could go make a tea, cast 20 dps spells and then think about casting cure, so excuses of them not dealing any dps are invalid", in which dimension may i ask...

I dont mind healers having fun dealing dps, just asking them to not forget to heal when your tank is pulling 3 groups of mobs and more.
Is that too much to ask? Stop pushing that "healers have to dps or they sucks" agenda everywhere i am sick of it, it is NOT NEEDED in dungeons with 90 minutes timer.
It does not matter if the run will be 1 or 2 minutes faster, when you could make it 5 minutes longer by a mistake, like tank at 30% health and you had to cancel cast to dodge aoe.

As a tank myself i try my best to use cd's, deff spells and etc, and i dont go yolo tank stance off on the pulls or in heavy boss fights, because damage is important and screw that a healer will need to cast cure one after another to keep me alive.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Does a tank dying makes him bad or a healer bad? You could only sustain yourself as a tank so long, cant hold the breath for eternity.
You are not asked by the game to do dps in 90% of the game content, its not needed, my complaints are there.

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I see your perspective so let me offer mine. A tank does that massive pull towards the end of Hells' Lid. He doesn't use any cooldowns. The party gets through the pull without any deaths. However, the healer was unable to dps (whether they wanted to or not) because they had to blow all their cooldowns and spam big cures to keep the tank up.

So... Is the tank a fine tank because he didn't die?

Everything is relative to the situation.

A healer can spend the entirety of a pull just making sure the tank doesn't drop below 95%. Does that make them a fine healer? After all, no one died.

When I heal, I like to dps as well. To me, it makes healing more interesting. If you start sweating when you hit 70% and I keep dropping dps spells instead that doesn't make me a bad healer. It makes you a faithless worry wart.

I am the first to admit that I wasn't paying attention if that's indeed the reason someone died. But, it doesn't happen often because as a healer I am more frequently than not looking at the party list rather than whatever enemy we're fighting (raids and like are the exception).

You can be uncomfortable with your healer dpsing. You are a person who's allowed to feel more or less whatever you please. But, you can't reasonably prevent your healer from doing so if that's what they want to do.