Survey: Community Opinions Regarding Parsing/Parsers in Final Fantasy XIV

You know what, with the sudden popularity in parsing right now, what do you think of the dev team eventually addressing this again in a live letter? Parsing has now become the biggest issue since housing - in my eyes, at least.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

You know what, with the sudden popularity in parsing right now, what do you think of the dev team eventually addressing this again in a live letter? Parsing has now become the biggest issue since housing - in my eyes, at least.

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They're generally pretty tight lipped unless they have something specific in mind, so I wouldn't expect it aside from "no we're not building anything", if at all.

It's also not nearly as bad as housing was, which was total crapstorm. That cut across player lines, made it outside the forum bubble, got covered by the gaming media, and so on. This is insider baseball in comparison.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

I don't get this? Isn't part of a PVE boss drop the Hp down to zero? There is only 1 way to kill it no?

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Yeah, I'm not sure what other way there is. "Be carried" maybe?

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Originally Posted by Tridus

Yeah, I'm not sure what other way there is. "Be carried" maybe?

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Did we clear? Yes!

Then we’re good enough and let’s call it a day.

I took the survery but lets make no mistake here. Parsers are helpful but they will not encourage everyone who plays badly to play better. There are experienced players who intentionally play badly in any content other then savage ruining and making life harder for other players. Did a Void ark run a few days ago were 5-6 people got kicked after the second boss for being afk or lazy, Had a co-healer in Paetrom who was only playing a healer for the faster que. Parsers and guides are helpful but only helpful for people who wish to improve not those deadset on doing things their way. I have been playing a healer since I started the game and no guide or parser can teach you how to be a good healer. As healing is mostly all about judgement and has no rotation of any kind that you can follow. While Tanks and DPS have rotations and combos they can follow, with CD weaving and positioning being the trickiest parts of their said rotations. But Parsers and guides will not trigger massive change in how people play, as people have to want to improve in the first place for improvement to happen.

I am pro, with the caveat that only the player who owns the parser can see the data, and that the parser checks only the dps of the player who owns the parser, unless they desire to share it with a mentor. A parser, like any other tool, can be used to be a dick, and if other people can not see your dps unless you give it to them, it prevents dickishness.

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Originally Posted by Istaru

Did we clear? Yes!

Then we’re good enough and let’s call it a day.

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See, I'm fine with that during prog. Where it becomes frustrating is in weekly page runs or farm parties, where someone doing only the bare minimum necessitates more effort from everyone else. This is especially true when Savage is fresh and our ilvls low. Think of it this way, if everyone had that mentality, what happens if you cannot meet enrage? This is largely what has contributed to Savage becoming watered down.

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Originally Posted by Istaru

Did we clear? Yes!

Then we’re good enough and let’s call it a day.

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Put that 3.5k dps in another group with same damage, will you clear? No! I posted a screenshot somewhere, where a MCH claimed that 3.5k dps is fine, where I was in a run where the dps was around 3.2k to 3.5k and we had 11% enrage, so no doesn't always work that way.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

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Agreed. Players can improve with or without parser if they are willing to. Interstingly I find many if not the most arguments against parsing is because “people should be able to play the way they want”. I totally get that outside of savage/ultimate (and some old extreme), dps is pretty irrelevant for clearing the content. But joining any savage/ultimate party means you should be held account for a minimum dps contribution no matter if it clears or not. Hell I can do 0 dps as a DPS on O4S and still clear if others are good enough, but that does not mean you deserve to clear. Also 0, 2k or 3.5k doesn’t matter because enrage is enrage. If you think others are at fault for kicking you, you are always welcome to form a party like “fun party no rage”. I’m sure everyone will have a good time.

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Originally Posted by Istaru

Did we clear? Yes!

Then we’re good enough and let’s call it a day.

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Did we make the DPS check? No.

Why? No one knows.

Time to disband the group and hope the next one doesn't suck...

But if a tank or healer isn't doing their job, they'll get kicked.

The hypocrisy is literally disgusting...

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

See, I'm fine with that during prog. Where it becomes frustrating is in weekly page runs or farm parties, where someone doing only the bare minimum necessitates more effort from everyone else. This is especially true when Savage is fresh and our ilvls low. Think of it this way, if everyone had that mentality, what happens if you cannot meet enrage? This is largely what has contributed to Savage becoming watered down.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

Put that 3.5k dps in another group with same damage, will you clear? No! I posted a screenshot somewhere, where a MCH claimed that 3.5k dps is fine, where I was in a run where the dps was around 3.2k to 3.5k and we had 11% enrage, so no doesn't always work that way.

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My comment was only what feedback I have seen from casual players.

If you fail at enrage, then the run wasn’t good enough.

Please, do not take it as my opinion. I don’t really disagree with either of you.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

Did we make the DPS check? No.

Why? No one knows.

Time to disband the group and hope the next one doesn't suck...

But if a tank or healer isn't doing their job, they'll get kicked.

The hypocrisy is literally disgusting...

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Given how long it takes to get tanks and healers for end game content it's not very often I've seen them get kicked

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Originally Posted by Istaru

If you fail at enrage, then the run wasn’t good enough.

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Uh, no.

The RUN wasn't what was holding you back. It could've been literally 1 DPS that was holding you back, but you're never going to know because, although it's fine to judge tanks and healers by their performance and kick them accordingly, DPS are too fragile, right?

I'm a DPS: if I'm playing poorly, I'd rather know about it so I can figure out what I need to fix than be shielded from the information I need to improve...

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

Given how long it takes to get tanks and healers for end game content it's not very often I've seen them get kicked

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Your group moves to the front of the queue when you're in an instance but lose a member for whatever reason.

They absolutely will get kicked if they can't do their job.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

Your group moves to the front of the queue when you're in an instance but lose a member for whatever reason.

They absolutely will get kicked if they can't do their job.

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You can't refill a pre-made group so this doesn't apply to high level content

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

Uh, no.

The RUN wasn't what was holding you back. It could've been literally 1 DPS that was holding you back, but you're never going to know because, although it's fine to judge tanks and healers by their performance and kick them accordingly, DPS are too fragile, right?.

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Clarification:

My use of the word “run” is meant to be simply an attempt to clear some content by one (1) or more players.
Garuda EX unsynced with eight (8) people is simply a run.
A weekly page clear in O3S is also a run.
Aurumn Vale Party? You guessed it, also a run.

Any failure for any reason, including OMGUBERBBQWTH craptastic play by one (1) or all of the DPS is a failed run.

Happier now that I specifically called out DPS and only DPS as my sole example of a failed run? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

You can't refill a pre-made group so this doesn't apply to high level content

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Ah, true.

I was referring to DF situations where tanks and heals get kicked if they mess up (sometimes even once...).

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Originally Posted by Istaru

Happier now that I specifically called out DPS and only DPS as my sole example of a failed run? :rolleyes:

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To be fair, you DID say "If you fail at enrage" so that typically implies there's not enough damage going out, which falls upon the DPS not playing well enough.

I don't mean to sound antagonistic, but I sometimes feel like I'm the only one who looks at what tanks and healers have to deal with, with the pressure of their roles, and then the relatively lax nature of what playing a DPS is like, and see how grossly unfair it is.

It's bad enough that most players find tanking and healing less enjoyable than DPS, but on TOP of that, you'll be scrutinized for your performance by players who are far more difficult to scrutinize back, playing classes that most agree are more enjoyable to play.

Is it any wonder queue times are as generally long as they are?

Okay, I've seen quite a few posts about parsers in the brief few months I've been on these forums, but I haven't really commented on any of them before now, to the best of my recollection. But I suppose even now I'm still a bit on the fence, though somewhat leaning toward wanting at least a personal parser. I can see merit in both sides of the argument. On one hand, in an ideal world one could use parsers to help improve their own results while also being able to work with their groups to efficiently uncover weaknesses and work to improve them. But I also recognize that the world isn't perfect, and that knowing people's numbers could lead to harassment.

I suppose I lean more towards the idea of at least a personal parser since I plan resuming my attempts for raid progression shortly, and it'd be nice to have a better way of knowing where I stand in-battle. I'm a PS4 player, so the best way I can really gauge myself is through the SSS dummies. It's helpful, sure, but not ideal. And since I've levelled my SMN and am practicing rotations, I think a parser would be a better way of telling me how I'm doing in multiple situations. I'd have to learn more on how they work, of course, but it would be nice to have something at least.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

To be fair, you DID say "If you fail at enrage" so that typically implies there's not enough damage going out, which falls upon the DPS not playing well enough.

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I agree that a failure at enrage is ultimately due to lack of damage going out. But does it necessarily mean it’s the fault of the DPS? If the healers aren’t handling the raidwide damage properly, using shields and etc and the DPS die, is it still their fault? Or if the tanks mess up the tankswaps or don’t use CDs? However, there are times that your statement about poor DPS play is true. I have no ability to quantify that however.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

I don't mean to sound antagonistic, but I sometimes feel like I'm the only one who looks at what tanks and healers have to deal with, with the pressure of their roles, and then the relatively lax nature of what playing a DPS is like, and see how grossly unfair it is.

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I get the outrage and I’m glad this post was not as hostile, thank you. I have been a healer and support main going back to FFXI and 2003. In XIV, I have been a healer or tank main forever. I get the challenge, I like it. I wouldn’t play those roles if I didn’t.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

It's bad enough that most players find tanking and healing less enjoyable than DPS, but on TOP of that, you'll be scrutinized for your performance by players who are far more difficult to scrutinize back, playing classes that most agree are more enjoyable to play.

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I’m the opposite, I like healing and tanking more than DPSing at endgame, by like a lot. When I do EX primals with friends, I want to heal or tank. I don’t want to DPS. Most people who tank or heal actually wanted to play those roles. For me, PLD, AST and WHM are my main three (3) jobs. I only get on BRD or RDM when I let someone else have a turn healing or tanking.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

Is it any wonder queue times are as generally long as they are?

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I think the lack of players wanting to be tanks or healers is from a lack of being looked at as being powerful. That they aren’t the killers of the monsters and evil things, the DPS do that. The DPS even get the LB as their personal toy.

Think of a champion in most fantasy games. Think of all the main characters in Final Fantasy games, I’m going to guess that the healer tending the wounds of the sick is not that image. But that is what people see healers as to a point.

Simply put, tanks and healers just aren’t seen as “sexy”. No, the added visibility doesn’t help their cause, but it has a lot of company.

I threw some answers into the thing. TL;DR in favor of adding a full parser to the game, because having options is never a bad thing.

I would not expect having a parser to decrease the community's overall ineptness, and while toxicity may see an increase in the short-term I would not expect it to persist for long (whether Square suspended people or not). There's at least one video out there of a guy intentionally doing as little to contribute as humanly possible in some WoW thing (I don't play WoW and can't find the video at this moment) and people had become so numb to parsers that they didn't even waste time commenting/acknowledging or booting them. I very much see that happening here too, because that's pretty much human nature.

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Originally Posted by Istaru

I think the lack of players wanting to be tanks or healers is from a lack of being looked at as being powerful. That they aren’t the killers of the monsters and evil things, the DPS do that. The DPS even get the LB as their personal toy.

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It's worth mentioning stigma and the numbers game, too.

When you start the game, if you want to be a healer, you have a single choice: Conjurer
When you start the game, if you want to be a tank, you have two choices: Gladiator and Marauder
When you start the game, if you want to be a DPS, you have five choices: Pugilist, Lancer, Archer, Thaumaturge and Arcanist
When you hit level 10, you have the choice to become one additional DPS: Rogue
When you hit level 50, you are given for free two lv50 DPS: Samurai and Red Mage
When you reach Ishgard, at level 51+, you are given three level 30 jobs: Dark Knight (Tank #3), Astrologian (Healer #2/3) and Machinist (DPS #9)

And then, stigma: "Tanks are the leaders of the party" and "Healers need to keep everyone alive." They sound stressful and like they have a lot of weight on their shoulders. But, y'know, they really don't. Tanking and healing are easy. Tanking and/or healing while doing consistently good damage is somewhat less easy, but also happens to not be required (community standards aside) for more than 95% of the content in the game. People are also possibly bringing the concepts of healing and tanking in other games, like WoW, to this one and immediately opting out of it for reasons even though the issues they have may not be applicable here.

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Originally Posted by Istaru

I agree that a failure at enrage is ultimately due to lack of damage going out. But does it necessarily mean it’s the fault of the DPS? If the healers aren’t handling the raidwide damage properly, using shields and etc and the DPS die, is it still their fault? Or if the tanks mess up the tankswaps or don’t use CDs? However, there are times that your statement about poor DPS play is true. I have no ability to quantify that however.



I get the outrage and I’m glad this post was not as hostile, thank you. I have been a healer and support main going back to FFXI and 2003. In XIV, I have been a healer or tank main forever. I get the challenge, I like it. I wouldn’t play those roles if I didn’t.



I’m the opposite, I like healing and tanking more than DPSing at endgame, by like a lot. When I do EX primals with friends, I want to heal or tank. I don’t want to DPS. Most people who tank or heal actually wanted to play those roles. For me, PLD, AST and WHM are my main three (3) jobs. I only get on BRD or RDM when I let someone else have a turn healing or tanking.



I think the lack of players wanting to be tanks or healers is from a lack of being looked at as being powerful. That they aren’t the killers of the monsters and evil things, the DPS do that. The DPS even get the LB as their personal toy.

Think of a champion in most fantasy games. Think of all the main characters in Final Fantasy games, I’m going to guess that the healer tending the wounds of the sick is not that image. But that is what people see healers as to a point.

Simply put, tanks and healers just aren’t seen as “sexy”. No, the added visibility doesn’t help their cause, but it has a lot of company.

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Nice post, and yeah it should be noted healers and tanks can cause problems for the DPS, even as simply thing as positioning. In all honestly tanks and healers don't have to do much to pass a run, its the good ones that do, and good dps have the same weight they put on themselves. Some people just put too much pressure on themselves and think some class has higher expectations then another and sorta "fear it" even on these boards I seen a few posts in regards to that.

At the end of the day, most levels like 1-40? tanks can't cause wipes, only healers and dps can. A DPS causes wipes in those levels if the tank does huge pulls and does not really do anything, causing the healer to be overwhelmed or running out of mp. Higher levels tanks can cause wipes by making huge pulls and not bother to use a CD or make sure things are hit by flash, etc.

At the end of the day people in general finger point blame more often then admitting they caused the issue. At first glance it may be hard to believe a DPS died because it was the DPS fault. *insert people died, healer fault meme*

RichardButte, you seem to have some bias and keep repeating the same things over and over. I really feel these comments would been better placed in threads with subjects of why we need better teaching tools in the game for players. This thread is nothing more then taking a servery on how people feel about parsing. So when you are taking your comments from other threads and putting them here, it is easy to see why people may not understand where you are coming from, like how you misunderstood Istaru's sarcasm.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

RichardButte, you seem to have some bias and keep repeating the same things over and over. I really feel these comments would been better placed in threads with subjects of why we need better teaching tools in the game for players. This thread is nothing more then taking a servery on how people feel about parsing. So when you are taking your comments from other threads and putting them here, it is easy to see why people may not understand where you are coming from, like how you misunderstood Istaru's sarcasm.

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It sounds like I'm repeating myself because the same points have been used to counter the argument against parsers and there has never been a rebuttal.

Either everyone in the game should be judged on their performance, or no one should. It's neither fair nor good game design to have some roles that have pressure on them to perform while another has next to none.

The root of the problem is ultimately a lack of teaching, but I don't see the devs bothering to rectify that issue any more than they've managed to wrangle the database problems.

And this became a discussion about parsers long before I showed up so don't pin that on me. :P

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

It sounds like I'm repeating myself because the same points have been used to counter the argument against parsers and there has never been a rebuttal.

Either everyone in the game should be judged on their performance, or no one should. It's neither fair nor good game design to have some roles that have pressure on them to perform while another has next to none.

The root of the problem is ultimately a lack of teaching, but I don't see the devs bothering to rectify that issue any more than they've managed to wrangle the database problems.

And this became a discussion about parsers long before I showed up. :P

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I am not repeating myself, ill just leave it as that, also you did not reply to what I was talking about, at all

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

it is easy to see why people may not understand where you are coming from, like how you misunderstood Istaru's sarcasm.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

I am not repeating myself, ill just leave it as that

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If you're referring to the last post on the previous page, yes, I read it: you were insisting that it's difficult for tanks to screw up in low level content and a bunch of other things that sidestep the question.

When a healer or tank fails at their role, not only do we know who failed but we know it immediately, and judgement usually falls upon them immediately.

Sometimes people will forgive them and just continue on. Other times they won't, but that's not a subject that's relevant to the discussion because it still avoids answering the real question.

How is it fair that two of the three roles can be so easily judged upon their performance while the third cannot?

And I KNOW the answer, just as everyone who's anti-parser does: it isn't.

It is completely and totally NOT fair that tanks and healers have an incentive to perform their roles well or be kicked while a terrible DPS can hide in a group of 3 others and will more than likely escape detection.

I've done dungeon runs as a DPS when I had yet to master (or grasp at all) the class I was playing and was absolutely slowing down the run and forcing the healer to work a lot harder to keep the tank alive for the duration of the extra long pulls. The irony is that it actually would've been the DPS' fault, had the healer gone OoM and we wiped.

There is no equivalent to that for tanks and healers for which they won't be kicked or the duty abandoned outright, because if they're playing as badly as I was and as badly as DPS can and yet still fly under the radar, the group would most certainly be wiping constantly.

This is not an equitable situation, and while I strongly feel this is mostly a problem because the game fails to properly educate DPS players on how to play their classes well enough to pass DPS checks and whatnot, it does not change how massively unfair this is to healers and tanks.

That's why every cry of "THINK OF THE TOXICITY PARSERS WILL BRING!!!" reeks of hypocrisy, because anyone saying that is being willfully ignorant of the fact that the tank and healer version of parsers has been in the game since launch...

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Originally Posted by Laurawrzz

Done it - I'd have liked a small 'additional thoughts' box at the end so I could bash out a tiny paragraph of the reasons why some of my answers seemed a bit contradictory ...! But hey. Looking forward to the results. :D

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That is an excellent suggestion. If I ever decide to do another survey in the future (either regarding this topic or another one I end up curious about), I will certainly keep something like that in mind! ^^

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Originally Posted by Esper

I did your survey, decent to say the least.

I do however feel the reasons against are filled with far to many condemning theories.

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If this is regarding the opinionated question in each ("Why are you [opinion] parsing/parser in FFXIV"), an explanation of why I choose those specific options will be addressed in my analysis of the data (I plan to have a tl;dr version and a more in-depth one for those interested). But, in short, I chose the options for each of the opinionated questions based off of the arguments and reasons I frequently see posted when parsers come up. ^^ I also include an "other" options for people to share anything I may have missed, or to just add in their 2 gil about the questions. I've gotten some fairly decent "other" responses too, so that makes me happy. ^^

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I’m not sure if said parsers even consider the differences between jobs and how many different abilities they bring to the group.

Examples being Bard dps while adding buffs the entire fight. Where it is part of there rotation it also effects there ultimate dps output, as well as having all instant cast abilities over castable.
Red Mage’ often battle res in alliance raids or normal raids. This effects dps output.

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Regarding this, the parsers would probably function identically to how ACT functions, whether they are group or personal. Any deeper analysis such as buffs/debuffs/etc, would have to require another program/website to view. I say this only because I don't know if such a complicated analysis system would be made readily available in the game due to resources. I probably should have been more clear about what the hypothetical in-game parser would do, so that is my mistake.

Hyomin, I appreciate the work you're putting into this. Just thought you should know :3

I answered as best as I can (am pro-parser) and I look forward to the results!

I would like to add in though under the topic of personal experiences with parsers and active harassment twords either others or myself. Totally outside FFXIX because I play other games that do have an active public parsing system built into the games. In those games never have I once seen harassment of others or been a victim myself of number harassment. The only occasions where convos creep in of "hey your numbers are kinda low" is when it pertains to the most upper end raids. Which is understandable, for basic content, most generally don't really say anything about others numbers.

I almost wonder if that's why parsing toxcity exists here, simply because the numbers for everyone ain't shown. While in the other games where they are shown, it almost triggers a mental thing cos nobody wants to be "that player" when numbers are shown and it shows who's not pulling their own weight. I do far more content in those games then here and because of parsers and shown numbers, things like ice mages, voiceless bards and dragoons with broken ankles really just don't exist. Everyone pulls their own weight as best as they can.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Players will always find a way to exclude others and it's in SE's best interest not to put their big rubber stamp that that sort of mentality is okay.

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Did you miss the fact that PF is incredibly exclusionary by nature and SE made it even more so in SB, thus putting their big rubber stamp on that mentality as being OK?

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Originally Posted by Vespar

This game would only become more toxic with parsing and people would just stop including players who didnt quite make the bill. (Even if they are actually very good people.)

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Do you mind linking to the study that showed without a doubt that parsers directly create more toxicity?

I'd be really interested in reading it if you had it. Or were you just posting from an anecdotal emotional standpoint?

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Originally Posted by Aylis

I almost wonder if that's why parsing toxcity exists here, simply because the numbers for everyone ain't shown. While in the other games where they are shown, it almost triggers a mental thing cos nobody wants to be "that player" when numbers are shown and it shows who's not pulling their own weight. I do far more content in those games then here and because of parsers and shown numbers, things like ice mages, voiceless bards and dragoons with broken ankles really just don't exist. Everyone pulls their own weight as best as they can.

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Bingo IMO of course. I said it in another post, we don't want to harass you about your numbers. We want you to see your numbers so we DON'T have to say anything to you about them. You'll see them and make the conscious decision to either improve or be excluded.

Exclusions doesn't have to be so badly connoted for the majority.

• Criminals are excluded from the general public
• People are excluded from being allowed to walk on highways
• JV players are excluded from Varsity sports
• Unqualified candidates are excluded from jobs
• Less intelligent students are excluded from good schools

Are these bad things too?

When you do this again can you explain what you mean by indifferent? I think that would of fit some people here better that picked something else.

What I am getting at is some people might only want some form of personal one or some kind of personal gauge to help people to know how they are doing. A full blown public one is just opening pandora's box sort of speak. I am still bothered by the huge skill gap this game has because it does not show enough in game. How come they did not do anything to curve skill gaps anyway? was it always like this?

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

Do you mind linking to the study that showed without a doubt that parsers directly create more toxicity?

I'd be really interested in reading it if you had it. Or were you just posting from an anecdotal emotional standpoint?

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Play wow, or hell it even happens in this game time to time even though it is supposed to be "not allowed"

Anti-parser, never personally witnessed harassment, but it's a loaded gun. I feel we should just be better prepared for harder content through leveling and/or have better tools to practice on our own than have a number machine telling the world that we are good or bad.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

Play wow, or hell it even happens in this game time to time even though it is supposed to be "not allowed"

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I bought a potion on wow, well friend gave it to me to see if I wanted to play with them. Yet to see it happen that I get called out, haven't seen anyone call out anyone in savage or extremes (yet their dps is like below tanks or on pair with them). Rarely happens, so since people say it happens often, I must be blind, so please be kind and share those proofs.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

I bought a potion on wow, well friend gave it to me to see if I wanted to play with them. Yet to see it happen that I get called out, haven't seen anyone call out anyone in savage or extremes (yet their dps is like below tanks or on pair with them). Rarely happens, so since people say it happens often, I must be blind, so please be kind and share those proofs.

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I have seen parser harassment (with ffxiv, haven't played wow), mostly outside the game though. However I believe every single case was justified, as in Person A starts talking shit and then Person B slams Person A with the parser results. There was also that one time on the Balance discord where that drg on Leviathan was bragging about their echo logs and said something about Roxa Claire, so Roxa gets on and just goes ham. That was pretty funny.

Hi Hyomin! Just saw this post. Not feeling well at the moment but I'll take the survey for you as soon as possible.

/hug

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

Hi Hyomin! Just saw this post. Not feeling well at the moment but I'll take the survey for you as soon as possible.

/hug

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Appreciate it Kacho! Please feel better soon! ^^ Survey isn’t going anywhere for 2 weeks so just focus on your health for now. ^^

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Appreciate it Kacho! Please feel better soon! ^^ Survey isn’t going anywhere for 2 weeks so just focus on your health for now. ^^

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You are welcome and thank you very much! I was pain-free enough to complete the survey today. ^^

I'm looking forward to the results of your survey and what conclusions you draw from it. It should lead to an interesting discussion on the subject.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

Play wow, or hell it even happens in this game time to time even though it is supposed to be "not allowed"

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Cross post I made in a different thread:

Hi former top 20 US WoW raider here. I have played WoW on and off for just about 14 years now. I can count on 1 hand (less than 5 incidents of actual toxicity). Want to know why? Because at the level I play at, people hold themselves accountable. There's no need to "bash" anyone because we don't make excuses for our mistakes. We simply own them and fix them if able.

I can pick and choose players to play with that fit my skill. WoW doesn't force me to play with people who have no business being in my groups. It's why when people praise the FF14 community it's hard for me to see why.

• I spend more time getting called names for playing well
• Carrying players who were near AFK (pressing a button every 9-12s)
• Watching people talk trash based on flat out inaccurate assumptions (so and so you're not doing any DPS I am watching you, meanwhile that person is only 30 DPS behind them, and the HEALER IS ABOVE BOTH, and I the tank am above all 3...
• Being reported for asking a healer to DPS (they did EXACTLY 0 dps). They were active less than 18% of the entire dungeon. Imagine if I a tank or a DPS was only active 18% of a dungeon, how much fun would YOU be having?
• Being told I should have been aborted for ASKING if the other tank wanted some tips, not giving tips, merely asking if they were interested.
• Kicked from an FC because I said that Lakshmi EX was disappointing as an EX primal.
• Top DPS in Rabanastre on 2 bosses as a tank, (no bonuses in my alliance, can't speak for others).
• 2 back to back runs of O3N where I was top DPS as tank by a staggering margin, neither run had bonus. Fun fact, DIDN'T GET ANY LOOT EITHER.

Anecdotal sure, but it's more experiences JUST off the top of my head in the past few years of playing, vs. over a decade in WoW.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

Cross post I made in a different thread:

Hi former top 20 US WoW raider here. I have played WoW on and off for just about 14 years now. I can count on 1 hand (less than 5 incidents of actual toxicity). Want to know why? Because at the level I play at, people hold themselves accountable. There's no need to "bash" anyone because we don't make excuses for our mistakes. We simply own them and fix them if able.

I can pick and choose players to play with that fit my skill. WoW doesn't force me to play with people who have no business being in my groups. It's why when people praise the FF14 community it's hard for me to see why.

• I spend more time getting called names for playing well
• Carrying players who were near AFK (pressing a button every 9-12s)
• Watching people talk trash based on flat out inaccurate assumptions (so and so you're not doing any DPS I am watching you, meanwhile that person is only 30 DPS behind them, and the HEALER IS ABOVE BOTH, and I the tank am above all 3...
• Being reported for asking a healer to DPS (they did EXACTLY 0 dps). They were active less than 18% of the entire dungeon. Imagine if I a tank or a DPS was only active 18% of a dungeon, how much fun would YOU be having?
• Being told I should have been aborted for ASKING if the other tank wanted some tips, not giving tips, merely asking if they were interested.
• Kicked from an FC because I said that Lakshmi EX was disappointing as an EX primal.
• Top DPS in Rabanastre on 2 bosses as a tank, (no bonuses in my alliance, can't speak for others).
• 2 back to back runs of O3N where I was top DPS as tank by a staggering margin, neither run had bonus. Fun fact, DIDN'T GET ANY LOOT EITHER.

Anecdotal sure, but it's more experiences JUST off the top of my head in the past few years of playing, vs. over a decade in WoW.

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So you just admitted why you do not see the mass toxicity because of Parsers ? I really do not get the point of your post, sorry.

I did your survey.
I am pro-parser.

I wish we could get a full parser (full party, all instances), but I understand the hesitations SE management has about potential harassment.

Personally, I think the tools in place (block/report) would work fine for any harassment that comes up due to a full parser. But I'm not sure if SE management is convinced. I don't know why.

Taking that into account, here's my middle-of-the-fence proposal:

A personal parser that compares you to everyone else.
That is, you get to see your data, all the time. But you also get to see how you did compared to others.

How to do this without giving all the data that can lead to easy harassment issues?
Give the personal data immediately (ongoing through the instance, if desired.)
But only give the comparison-to-others data at the end of the instance.

Also... don't include others in your party in the comparison-to-others data.
The comparison-to-others data should only be historical data obtained from previously-ran instances.

This way you get to see how do. And you also get to see how you fall "in the pack" with the community.
What you don't get is any specific data on how others are doing. Therefore, you can't harass them about something you don't get to see.

It's the best compromise I can think of. But, personally, I don't think a compromise is necessary. I think FF14 would do fine with a full blown, full access in-game parser accompanied with it's current usage of block/report harassment control. GMs have always been very quick, and very responsive for any issues I've had while playing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cold_Raven

I did your survey.
I am pro-parser.
I wish we could get a full parser (full party, all instances), but I understand the hesitations SE management has about potential harassment.

Personally, I think the tools in place (block/report) would work fine for any harassment that comes up due to a full parser. But I'm not sure if SE management is convinced. I don't know why.

Taking that into account, here's my middle-of-the-fence proposal:

A personal parser that compares you to everyone else.
That is, you get to see your data, all the time. But you also get to see how you did compared to others.

How to do this without giving all the data that can lead to easy harassment issues?
Give the personal data immediately (ongoing through the instance, if desired.)
But only give the comparison-to-others data at the end of the instance.

Also... don't include others in your party in the comparison-to-others data.
The comparison-to-others data should only be historical data obtained from previously-ran instances.

This way you get to see how do. And you also get to see how you fall "in the pack" with the community.
What you don't get is any specific data on how others are doing. Therefore, you can't harass them about something you don't get to see.

It's the best compromise I can think of. But, personally, I don't think a compromise is necessary. I think FF14 would do fine with a full blown, full access in-game parser accompanied with it's current usage of block/report harassment control. GMs have always been very quick, and very responsive for any issues I've had while playing.

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Liked your post and sorry if I sound like a broken record to some. The big thing I feel now, after connecting the dots sort of speak, is it is possible they feel would lead to a lot of reports to deal with. If they have a limited size GM staff, it means they need more GMs. I feel this game has a really small budget, leading them to design measures to limit GM calls and limit harassment.

Anyways, ya I liked what ya said

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

Cross post I made in a different thread:

Hi former top 20 US WoW raider here. I have played WoW on and off for just about 14 years now. I can count on 1 hand (less than 5 incidents of actual toxicity). Want to know why? Because at the level I play at, people hold themselves accountable. There's no need to "bash" anyone because we don't make excuses for our mistakes. We simply own them and fix them if able.

I can pick and choose players to play with that fit my skill. WoW doesn't force me to play with people who have no business being in my groups. It's why when people praise the FF14 community it's hard for me to see why.

• I spend more time getting called names for playing well
• Carrying players who were near AFK (pressing a button every 9-12s)
• Watching people talk trash based on flat out inaccurate assumptions (so and so you're not doing any DPS I am watching you, meanwhile that person is only 30 DPS behind them, and the HEALER IS ABOVE BOTH, and I the tank am above all 3...
• Being reported for asking a healer to DPS (they did EXACTLY 0 dps). They were active less than 18% of the entire dungeon. Imagine if I a tank or a DPS was only active 18% of a dungeon, how much fun would YOU be having?
• Being told I should have been aborted for ASKING if the other tank wanted some tips, not giving tips, merely asking if they were interested.
• Kicked from an FC because I said that Lakshmi EX was disappointing as an EX primal.
• Top DPS in Rabanastre on 2 bosses as a tank, (no bonuses in my alliance, can't speak for others).
• 2 back to back runs of O3N where I was top DPS as tank by a staggering margin, neither run had bonus. Fun fact, DIDN'T GET ANY LOOT EITHER.

Anecdotal sure, but it's more experiences JUST off the top of my head in the past few years of playing, vs. over a decade in WoW.

---

You are living this game, slow down bud or give a mmorpg a break.
Thats why the parsers should never be supported by the SE, it develops a bad habbit on players by looking over everyone and seek for excuses on them.
Dont get me wrong, i know where are you coming from, since its game based on coop and it gets annoying if you want to get things get sorted, but it will never be, but still thats killing the game for you and only you. You should be laughing at these situations you experienced, not getting mad.
Last game my party have been wiped on trial 4 times, before i decided to show them what they should do, and that was hilarious.
Just uinstall the addon and play the game as it is, why should you feel sorry for the bad/underperforming players when you are carrying them? If you are doing well enough and know your job, why do you even need a parser? If that would happen to me, i would be proud of myself i did something on my own, and recommendations would seal it even stronger, because i know and they know who was the best.
Its just a PVE, there is no ranking you are losing if you finish duty 10 min later.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

You are living this game, slow down bud or give a mmorpg a break.

Its just a PVE, there is no ranking you are losing if you finish duty 10 min later.

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Just like to address these 2 overly used points. The first is a common flawed assumption generally held by those who are anti-parser. I'd like to ask why people think that. If you look at it logically, those who play at a higher level will on average do things in less time with less failures. It stands to reason that those who play better spend less time doing any given thing on this game than those who don't care and think doing more than basic functioning is blasphemous does it not? How do you know this person or most higher tier players "live the game"? I'm not the best in the world by far but I could argue I probably have less game hours spent on this game than most people who started longer than say a year ago and are against parsers. I also am very into things like crafting and gathering (especially fishing) which make up probably about as much of my game time as combat activities. I also have two alts I made to go through the main story again because I enjoy it. I just chose to spend my time efficiently by doing a quick bit of homework and practice when learning something so I don't have to keep struggling the entire time I play.

As for the latter, it isn't so black and white as winning or losing. The problem many people have is just a lack of effort to bring the same amount of effort to the table (see: effort not effect) when tackling content as a team. I don't care if people have the best gear nor do I care if they have a perfect rotation and a fight minmaxed to perfection. As I said before I just like seeing that others acknowledge other living beings are in the group with them putting effort in to clear whatever it is we're doing and contribute accordingly. In an expert roulette if people are putting in the basic amount of effort for things to go smoothly it won't take long (healers contributing dps as much as they're comfortable and the situation allows i.e at least DoTs, dps using aoe skills when multiple mobs are pulled, tanks using appropriate defensive cooldowns and maintaining aggro/not cleaving the group while adding in some decent damage). None of these things take very much effort if you take the time to adjust to them over time and they make things significantly smoother in the long run. In a farm party (especially mount farming where drop rates are abysmal) you're required to know the fight and be able to clear it efficiently. The slower each kill is, the less kills you get done in a given amount of time, and the less chance everyone has of obtaining what they're farming for. Not only does it negatively impact others but it you as well. An extreme way of looking at it is that people don't care to put in enough effort to the point they're willing to short themselves as well as others. I still fail to see why this kind of thought is still defended so vehemently much less expressed so widely.

Sorry if this distracts from the point of the thread any. I'm looking forward to the results.