Tank dps harrasment

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Originally Posted by Solarra

There is absolutely no reason to kick a tank over their dps in dungeons or hunts. If a group needs their tank's dps to clear casual content, there has to be something seriously wrong with the dps.

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Idk why y'all keep bringing up needing tank/healer dps for things like dungeons. No one has ever said they need it for anything but early progression. It's wanted to make the run go faster.

Elitists are why I just opted against even displaying my FFLogs in the first place.

Some moron called me out for doing "bottom percentile" DPS judging from the two or three parses other people uploaded without my knowledge. In hindsight, I wish I reported him.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

Idk why y'all keep bringing up needing tank/healer dps for things like dungeons. No one has ever said they need it for anything but early progression. It's wanted to make the run go faster.

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Because that is actually part of this thread's original topic. OP said they were kicked from a dungeon party and from a hunt party over their stance and dps.

Being kicked from a hunt group for using shield oath? Guess they don’t want full credit for hunts........ I MT almost every NM in shield oath and spamming the RoH combo. My groups always get max credit no matter how fast it dies.

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Originally Posted by Joe777

Because that is actually part of this thread's original topic. OP said they were kicked from a dungeon party and from a hunt party over their stance and dps.

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Needing tank dps in dungeons? No that has very little to do with the topic. Wanting it? Yes that has everything to do with it.

"The dps aren't doing their job if healer/tank dps is asked for," is and always has been a strawman argument in cases like these.

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

Being kicked from a hunt group for using shield oath? Guess they don’t want full credit for hunts........ I MT almost every NM in shield oath and spamming the RoH combo. My groups always get max credit no matter how fast it dies.

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I'd like to point out that a party of all dps can easily get full credit just fine on any hunt so long as everyone is actually hitting the mob.

Not saying you''re wrong for doing it, but this has come up a couple times in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

Needing tank dps in dungeons? No that has very little to do with the topic. Wanting it? Yes that has everything to do with it.

"The dps aren't doing their job if healer/tank dps is asked for," is and always has been a strawman argument in cases like these.

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Not sure if you just don't get what OP was saying or don't want to...

Bottom line is OP was kick abused and there really is no argument to prove otherwise. Not unless they withheld any information that could prove otherwise...

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Originally Posted by Joe777

Not sure if you just don't get what OP was saying or don't want to...

Bottom line is OP was kick abused and there really is no argument to prove otherwise. Not unless they withheld any information that could prove otherwise...

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If OP feels so strongly about it, they should report it/ talk to a GM rather than look for people to lick their wounds for them on the forums. Personally, I don't think being kicked from those hunts or farm parties is kick abuse, and I dont think being kicked from the dungeon was kick abuse either, although if OP is telling the truth it was a dick move.

Still has nothing to do with tank dps being needed for a clear.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

If OP feels so strongly about it, they should report it/ talk to a GM rather than look for people to lick their wounds for them on the forums. Personally, I don't think being kicked from those hunts or farm parties is kick abuse, and I dont think being kicked from the dungeon was kick abuse either, although if OP is telling the truth it was a dick move.

Still has nothing to do with tank dps being needed for a clear.

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Yes it isn't needed, but it was used as an excuse to kick anyway. Also OP didn't come here to seek sympathy, they came here to check if what has been happening to them is something that shouldn't, or even if it's commonplace. That's how it was originally anyway, until some elitist jerk decided to defend the unjust actions they mentioned. Things went from there.

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Originally Posted by Joe777

Yes it isn't needed, but it was used as an excuse to kick anyway. Also OP didn't come here to seek sympathy, they came here to check if what has been happening to them is something that shouldn't, or even if it's commonplace. That's how it was originally anyway, until some elitist jerk decided to defend the unjust actions they mentioned. Things went from there.

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Thats what happens when you post on a general discussion board. People give their opinions on the matter. I'm not sure what else is to be expected. Someone hsving an opinion that differs from someone else doesnt make them an elitist jerk, however.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

Thats what happens when you post on a general discussion board. People give their opinions on the matter. I'm not sure what else is to be expected. Someone hsving an opinion that differs from someone else doesnt make them an elitist jerk, however.

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An opinion alone doesn't, but flaunting it around like it's a fact does.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

I'd like to point out that a party of all dps can easily get full credit just fine on any hunt so long as everyone is actually hitting the mob.

Not saying you''re wrong for doing it, but this has come up a couple times in this thread.

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Ah, np. TLDR the thread anyway. Seems a bit hostile atm, lol.

Yes people using parsers should be kicked and banned from the game. It is a violation of ToS.
Even reading through this thread you can see people flaunting their knowledge of parsers and whatever, they should be banned.

Look at the one guy putting down the OP in multiple responses, using parsers numbers as a good reason to kick someone!
That is why they need to get more strict on parser users. They are toxic and they bring down the community with their attitudes.
Read through this thread. It is a perfect example of why Parsers should not be implemented.
Thank you SE for not allowing parsing, but please get even more strict and bring out the Ban hammer on these toxic members.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

I'd like to point out that a party of all dps can easily get full credit just fine on any hunt so long as everyone is actually hitting the mob.

Not saying you''re wrong for doing it, but this has come up a couple times in this thread.

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For a party to receive full credit they must have a certain minimum percentage of enmity or FATE/Hunt completion (i.e. % of HP). Simply hitting the mob for the length of its time up will by no means guarantee full credit at higher player counts.

When the FATE/Hunt is overmassed and/or has little time to live, enmity grinding is your best way to guarantee full credit. Even a full party doing optimal openers in Savage raid gear is often not enough to grab full credit if it's joining late as but a small portion of the total players.

Yes, better to go full DPS if you're already guaranteed full credit, but as stacking enmity allows more parties to receive full credit than pure DPS would, and stacks contribution far, far faster than pure DPS, there's a massive range for which it's the optimal choice, especially during FATE/Hunt peak hours.

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Originally Posted by KingMeteo

Parsers comment

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Whoa, whoa…slow down, I like being parsed at times…but when I ask, it’s to do self-improvement. People using parsers shouldn’t be banned on principle. It should be used for self-improvement, not to force other players to improve. It’s a slippery slope and I don’t agree that all parsers are toxic. In fact, about 99% of parsers that I do know and do savage/ex content with are actually quite friendly and pretty cool – most of them don’t even post numbers unless they are requested.
Yes, the guy that has been trying to shut down the OP is being a jackass for some of the things he said. But people like this are few and far compared to the rest of the community. One bad apple doesn’t ruin the batch here.

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Originally Posted by KingMeteo

Angry rant

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If your raiding parser are pretty much required and Yoshi P has stated multiple times he is fine with people using them as long as your not using it for abuse.

It's a tool that the majority of people use simply to improve themselves, just because there are a small minority of people who will misuse it doesn't mean you should start banning everyone.

"Defiance is a debuff" Tank here. Quite frankly, as long as you give it your all and make an effort to play as good as you can while improving yourself, I see no reason anyone should harass any other player, ever. Every content we play is a team effort, and I personally prefer giving pointers and helping out than mindlessly bashing others. If I see a tank in tankstance spamming the aggro combo, I am more than happy to give a few pointers on how to use the other skills, dropping tankstance is optional and depends on your own comfort level and skill. Whats more important is to use all skills available, imho.

While I agree that a PF's lead can set the rules,what they did here was not good, considering how runs can easily go bad if something goes wrong (I myself have some bad parses there too). We all have bad days every now and then, or groups that force us to play less optimal.

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Originally Posted by Hannia

may i make a request hazy? please just stop your turning this into something much worse than me "complaining". So please just stop

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As in-game, the forums have an ignore function, click on user name and add to ignore list, do yourself a favour ;)

Someone being an ass does not a bannable offense make.

Were the people who kicked the OP being rude? Of course, I certainly wouldn't want to play with them. They were certainly within their rights to kick him though, differing playstyle is such a blanket statement that virtually everything is a legitimate reason to kick someone apart from - hold for irony - actually playing poorly when you have and present concrete proof in the form of a parse.

That being said you can certainly evaluate a tank's DPS to an extent without a parser because the icon next to their name literally changes when they are outputting serious damage. Steel Cyclone is 200 base potency less than Decimate and then also doesn't benefit from the 5% flat damage and scaling Crit bump of Deliverence. That is an easily visible tell to see whether your tank is prioritizing damage, if they aren't and you want to kick them go right ahead.

That being said I bet those people are on a lot of blacklists, being that picky in a dungeon seems silly. The tank in tank stance is still contributing DPS assuming they are doing some semblance of a rotation, equating this with the healer DPS debate is not only a poor comparison it's hyperbolic.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

I personally never seen toxic "non parser".

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Originally Posted by KingMeteo

Yes people using parsers should be kicked and banned from the game. It is a violation of ToS.
Even reading through this thread you can see people flaunting their knowledge of parsers and whatever, they should be banned..

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You are welcome.

This kind of attitude is equally worse. He is mixing the utility of that tool with people's attitude and how some use it. In reality, people harassing others over parsers are a minority. It's mostly used for and by statics for self improvement, challenge or whatever. If people use it to harass others, it doesn't mean the tool is bad. It's these people atittude the core of the issue.

This kind of players probably have a tendency of reporting everyone using them, even if they are not harassing others.

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

FFLogs =/= In-game Parser. I know SE's stance on parsers. I've never seen them say anything about third-party sites like FFLogs even though the data was obtained via parsing. Largely because there's no proof that the person talking about the logs is in any way parsing themselves.

Using the information to harass someone is one thing (because harassment is against the ToS regardless), but I've never heard of general use of FFLogs being against the ToS. And no, "guilt by association" doesn't apply here unless SE explicitly said using FFLogs is against the rules in addition to openly parsing.

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fflogs comes from the parser. so in turn yes it is part of the "don't ask don't tell". in order for fflogs to be a things, parser needs to be a thing.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

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the thread when over your head. First off "difference of play style" doesn't include "you are gray on fflog/ kick" that is vote kick abuse using a tool which is by right against the tos, using it to harass someone.

second shin ex is 1 case of several, which includes hunts and dungeons. People are getting out of hand over tank/healer dps, using fflogs and parser as weapons instead of tools.

Which goes against what Yoshida wants.

tlrd: you can't use a parser or fflog (since fflog is parser data) to kick a person. the tool is against the tos, and kicking them is vote kick abuse.

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Originally Posted by Lilseph

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You should save yourself some time and ignore the guy. A quick look at his messages history clearly shows he is either a troll or has a personal problem with people using parsers.

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Originally Posted by Hannia

I know that this is a touchy subject, but what is with the mindset of everyone expecting tanks to do more dps?...

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There are plenty of reasons for this. This game has pushed at the "more dps" mentality, some apply that to everything and that's one place you get these kinds of people. People want to finish asap so they can get their rewards, there's a lot to do in a day sometimes if you try to do everything you feel compelled to do them all.

DPS is something each member should take part of, but the argument comes in where is that priority numbered? That's for another thread.

In the end, not counting Ex content and sticking to dungeons. There's no need to go all raid runner for these dungeons, when you relax and have a good time they're fun. It's when you get the people from both ends of the spectrum that ruin it. The guy who goes "those are your melds? You could be doing .3034 / ^2% if you.." then there's the one who presses the button and talks about what's on netflix while standing in stuff.

In the end, if they want to kick you let them. It's annoying but they wait 10 minutes for a tank when the run could be near over and you jump right back in. I enjoy tanking I just don't enjoy the people so much. They can leave if they want, lets not act like DPS are in short supply. You may not do things perfect, I mean I know I mind-fart some things and screw up some mitigation activation, so you got to adjust.

On the other hand, play with stance dancing you may enjoy it. Or you may not, but you should have valid reasons for doing either one other than "I don't wanna" or because some guy on you-tube tells the mindless hive masses how things should be played....or else!

Bottom line is this game isn't nearly as high-demand in performance as other games I've played, and I'm not going to treat it as such. Others do, and they think it helps them out, so let the never ending cycle begin.

Honestly, if a tank is keeping hate (through damage and use of aggro tools), using cooldowns as needed, and not getting hit by avoidable damage, they're doing everything I could ever ask them to do. Especially if I'm healing.

If I'm there as a DPS, high damage is my job, not theirs.

OP, if you're a tank, be a TANK. In all the ways it matters. I can learn to love you.

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Originally Posted by HazyAssaulter

If OP doesn't want to be discriminated against because of his fflogs rankings, he needs to git gud and improve them.

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Well this is the prime example of why people hate people who parse.



OP you can hide your fflogs so people can't judge you off of them. There is no need for this crap unless you really want to know how youre doing. It's a game, have fun and play it. Good luck and I hope you find better people to match up with!

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Originally Posted by Deithwen

You should save yourself some time and ignore the guy. A quick look at his messages history clearly shows he is either a troll or has a personal problem with people using parsers.

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If you actually look at my post history, I have said numinous times i have 0 issue with ppl using parsers. My coil group used them.

I DO have an issue with people using parsers to harass people, and "pro-parser" users insulting people over a difference of opinion, while cherry picking posts to fit their narrative not looking at the bigger picture.

like what the guy your warning did. If you read the "ban all parser user" post you will see WHY he said it. People are jerks about parser, it is nothing new nor a minority for some. It is a very real thing people experience every day.

But ppl act like either A) the person is the problem or B) close minded to anyone experiences but their own.

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Originally Posted by silverlunarfox

OP you can hide your fflogs so people can't judge you off of them.

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Honestly should be the default. After reading through this thread, I signed up there just to do that.

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Originally Posted by Sarteck

Honestly should be the default. After reading through this thread, I signed up there just to do that.

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honestly I did too XP I found people have been parsing RC runs and I wasn't aware. It made me laugh actually. and yes, it should be default. It's ridiculous it isn't.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

like what the guy your warning did. If you read the "ban all parser user" post you will see WHY he said it.

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No matter what the reason is it doesn't change the fact that it's still toxic. Just because someone's dog was killed by a person of a different race doesn't mean that suddenly everyone of that race is terrible. There is literally no excuse for the toxic mindset of "ban all parser users and parsers are toxic + parser users are toxic." It's just hypocritical, just stop defending it. If it was justifiable because it's against the rules Yoshida and co. would've already banned all the top raiders, and anyone who is seen streaming with parsers or mentions using them even on the forums. Kind of weird how you can say you use them on the forum and it's fine, but can't mention it in game actually.


Unrelated to the quoted message, let this be a lesson learned. Don't make a blog post on the forum about healer or tank DPS and not expect it to become some big debate about parsers. You were asking for it. Anti-parsers will whine "grr parsers did it yet again," calling it toxic, and pro-parsers will yell at you to "git gud." Then they'll fight.

Also, by the way, I can't believe people are seriously debating about someone being kicked from party finder or hunt groups. A PF leader can kick for any reason, including DPS. As long as they don't mention parsing or numbers there is no grounds for bans or warning. The only bannable or even "offense" period was that FFlogs were mentioned. The developer team or Yoshida has never gone on record saying that kicking anyone in party finder for any reason could break any rules.

Sorry about the things you had to go through OP, personally at least if I'm doing ex primals so long as my tanks can tank and my healers can heal I just deal with how they want to play. At most one tank wouldn't make enough of a difference in time for me to actually care, especially in a pug.

"If OP doesn't want to be discriminated against because of his fflogs rankings, he needs to git gud and improve them."

The bluntness and naked honesty of this comment of mine is setting off a lot of people, so let me restate it in a more politically correct manner:

OP doesn't want to get kicked from high end duties just because he has low DPS. He can feel that way, but the world isn't going to change for him. The only way he won't continue to run into this problem is to try to improve himself. His attitude of merely lamenting about the problem and burying his head in the sand isn't going to do him any favors.

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Originally Posted by Sarteck

Honestly should be the default. After reading through this thread, I signed up there just to do that.

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Originally Posted by silverlunarfox

honestly I did too XP I found people have been parsing RC runs and I wasn't aware. It made me laugh actually. and yes, it should be default. It's ridiculous it isn't.

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The reason they don't is it wouldn't have any impact. Anyone willing to publicly attack you over FFlogs will just assume you're hiding them because "you suck." Those who don't necessarily care, or at least won't verbalize it, won't say anything either way.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

The reason they don't is it wouldn't have any impact. Anyone willing to publicly attack you over FFlogs will just assume you're hiding them because "you suck." Those who don't necessarily care, or at least won't verbalize it, won't say anything either way.

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True but it's one less thing to worry about. This way you can just shrug and go "yeah, I suck" XP

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

The reason they don't is it wouldn't have any impact. Anyone willing to publicly attack you over FFlogs will just assume you're hiding them because "you suck." Those who don't necessarily care, or at least won't verbalize it, won't say anything either way.

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Your point's good and a valid one, but I still don't like the idea of some group of people uploading my data without my knowledge. Not merely because of what the stats might say (and even that would often be misrepresentative), but because it's really none of their darned business.

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Originally Posted by Sarteck

Honestly should be the default. After reading through this thread, I signed up there just to do that.

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Originally Posted by silverlunarfox

honestly I did too XP I found people have been parsing RC runs and I wasn't aware. It made me laugh actually. and yes, it should be default. It's ridiculous it isn't.

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its not for the reason this thread exists. People WANT to look you up to see if you are up to snuff, instead of asking you if it is ok out right.

and due to the "don't ask don't tell" of parser/ parser data you can't add "we check parse/fflogs" to pf. Imo doing so is vote kick abuse. If the person is on ps4 they can't parse and load their numbers. they are only loaded by other people. Which imo should go against the fflog creed/rules. you can oly post you logs not someone elses.

i play on ps4 and im on it. but found the site confusing and only found 2 cases i was parsed. 1 where im green 1 where im dark blue. no idea what either means.

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Originally Posted by Sarteck

Your point's good and a valid one, but I still don't like the idea of some group of people uploading my data without my knowledge. Not merely because of what the stats might say (and even that would often be misrepresentative), but because it's really none of their darned business.

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FFlogs will always be a cancer on this community if only because people use it primarily for being big-headed, when the entire point is improvement. FFlogs lets you see the entire fight down to the literal GCD and rotations of you and your members, so it lets people who weren't present for the fight critique your rotation or your up-time.

In the end though, the average person will just use it to put people down or brag about how great their numbers are. I will always agree that FFlogs does far more harm than good.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

its not for the reason this thread exists. People WANT to look you up to see if you are up to snuff, instead of asking you if it is ok out right.

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The fact is stated above. I don't want my data uploaded without my knowledge. If you want to see if I'm up to snuff, run with me. You need more than just numbers after all. Group chemistry is also a thing, and parsers don't reflect that. But I am a team player and build my parties as such. Which is why I largely run high-end content with my FC only because we have built a team that not only can put out numbers but know how to work together (esp in ways I never thought possible). I've always been for parsing for personal benefit (esp since PS4 players can't), but its more than that in most content; which is why this post exists in the first place since not everyone understands that.

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Originally Posted by Hannia

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Its crazy that people expect a certain level of play from others in a multiplayer game, am I right?.... Never will understand the "i am a tank/healer so dps isn't important crowd". Im glad their are groups that exist that dont care that you are wasting their time by not dpsing more, either as a result of your skill or your willfully choosing to not. However, it shouldn't come as a shock to you that there are people out there who would rather not have you waste their precious time. SE has condoned these kicks, dont know why its an issue to still be discussed.

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Originally Posted by Oscura

I will always agree that FFlogs does far more harm than good.

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It's subjective. People who use it right will use it the way it supposed to, analyze and compare to others damage and then self improve. If people don't want their logs uploaded, you simply just hide it. And again if people do find out later you are a bad player, should we be obligated to lower our skill to yours then never get a clear or a 13 min farm shinryu? Or even worse when we just flat out carry you, which in most cases most wont do and it's their own rule of party to do so, to kick you for underperforming.

Also why is it that TANKS outdps some dpses in roulettes or healers do it too? Like if you are a dps, isnt your job to do more than those 2 jobs? Or you simply saying a dps job is slack?

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

I think this new meta around tank DPS is getting out of hand, but it's not without it's merits and isn't totally unreasonable.

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It's not new. It started in ARR when people first realized, "Hey, I don't need to heal/mitigate/build enmity when it's not needed, maybe I should dps instead." I guess more and more people are slowly figuring it out (2 expansions later lel) but the reason it's causing so much drama is that many players in this game's community seem to want to set the bar so low you can step over it. Even if you merely suggest to the average player that they can improve somewhat, they grab their pitchforks and torches and cry, "Elitist!" While people are right that tank/healer dps isn't needed to clear most content, there's also little to no reason not to have it either. As I said earlier, if people know the instance and their class, there's just no reason not to dps.